![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Last night I had sort of a "wake up call" to start dealing with my problems. More of a hit in the head, but anyway. So, I decided it's time for me to really start improving and thinking about the things I need to thnk about. Yahoo for me, right?
WRONG! This morning I was awakened with a call from my therapist. The conversation went something like this:
Him: How are you?
Me: Tired.
Him: Did I wake you?
Me: Yes, you did.
Him: Sorry, I wasn't sure what time you had classes.PAUSE
Him: So, I'm working on getting my group together and wanted to know what the best time would be for you. Is Tuesdays at 9 am ok? (my regualr session time is Tuesday at 8)
PREGNANT PAUSE
Me: Ummmm, yeah.
Him: I'm really excited about this. You'll do fine, ect. This is a way to keep you as a client. (Then he told me the ages of the group members and they are in our age range, even worse IMO)
Me: Ok
Him: Great. Sorry about waking you. Have a nice day.Now folks, I was asleep. I think the hit to my head helped me sleep in a bit? So, I started thinking over coffee about the conversation. And I realized, I'm moving to group. I don't really have much of a say, unless I want to change therapists.
So, of course, I called him. And we talked for 30 minutes. About my hit to the head and group. He thinks that I should have a positive attitude, but basically told me how I can "get out of it" and return to regular individual sessions. This isn't his call. And he said several times, "This is a way to keep you as a client." He didn't phrase it, "This is the best thing for you," or "This will help you improve," or even "This is a way for you to keep me as a therapist." It was phrased as though he was putting me in group so that he could keep me. Maybe I'm looking too much into this? And I'm not looking forward to Group, which also starts on our anniversery.. Darn the luck.. So, I have 4 sessions (me thinks) left with him as an individual, then I move to group. This is Bull shit! And it's not in my best interest, is it? I can hardly talk to him about things, I even hide my depression from him. How can I EVER talk about those things with a bunch of people sitting around trying to give me advice? And, to boot, I'm not getting "MY TIME." And I have to listen to people gripe and moan about how much their lives suck. I'll try it, do what he said to get back to individual (basically faking depression, ect.). But, I can't do that often, a his supervisor will catch on. I also got his supervisor's name.
Oh, there's a war brewing!!!!
Posted by Asya on February 20, 2004, at 14:33:55
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Oh KAren!
I am so sorry that you are feeling this way. I know your transition into group won't be an easy thing to do, and I understand what you said about having "your time." Put some trust in your T as a caring professional who truly sees how this will help you. Also, try to extract the most ou can from your last four private sessions. Finally, realize that you do have options here, you can leave if group isn't working and do what he said to go back into private sessions (even if it IS not the most kosher arrangement) and you WILL find an arrangement that works for you. You also have everyone here to post to to make the transition easier. I really hope you slowly becoem comfortable with the idea of group, and if not, don't hesitate to make YOUR own choices about what works for you
Posted by Dinah on February 20, 2004, at 14:42:02
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Karen, it does sound like a horrid few days. I think what you need to do is decide what's best for *you*. I've been concerned about your therapist wanting you to think about your father for an hour a day, and now this. Is it in *your* best interests to do all this to keep him? What options do you have? I know you don't have much time left in the area you're in, but would it be better for *you* to change to a more experienced therapist who could see you individually for the remainder of your time?
How much freedom does your therapist have. Is he an employee of this organization? Does his supervisor have final say? Are you limited to this place for your treatment, or can you look elsewhere? Does his supervisor have any alternative suggestions?
Sigh. I don't understand why depression would cover you for more individual sessions, while bipolar doesn't. And it stinks that you have to play games to get treatment.
I'm sorry I'm doing nothing but asking questions, but I really want to see you get the treatment you need, not the treatment that your therapist needs you to have.
(((Karen Kay)))
Take care of yourself, ok?
Posted by DaisyM on February 20, 2004, at 14:42:36
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Karen,
I am so sorry. I read your post twice because, I simply can not believe they are FORCING you to accept group instead of individual. I should say right here that I'm touchy about this today.Why? Because, unbelievably, I had a conversation yesterday about group therapy with my own Therapist. I had a bizarre dream in which someone handed my Therapist a note that said I had breast-cancer (I don't) and now needed a different kind of therapy so he could no longer treat me. Short dream. Long conversation about it's meaning. We decided that I was still worried about him not being able to handle all this ugly stuff and I thought he would ultimately terminate me. He asked me if I thought I needed something different than what he was doing, like a woman Therapist, or a group. I said no, I knew the books all recommend groups because of the support, etc. but I didn't see myself ever comfortable in that environment. He agreed and said he would be surprised if I ever asked for that kind of a referral. I also made it clear that I did not think I was missing anything by not having a female Therapist. But I asked him if he thought I needed a change - based on his interpretation of the dream. But the more he talked about the pros and cons of group therapy, the more I floated away, until I absolutely couldn't follow him, I had stopped hearing. And then when he talked about changing, well, it was a bad scene. I left upset, ended up in tears later with him trying to sort it all out.
I finally heard him say he did not ever say that he wanted me to have a new Therapist, he did not want me to have additional services and he was not mad that I didn't want these things. We were talking about the dream. But that I should remember that changes we make are MY CHOICE, based on what is best for me.
This is a really long way to make my point I guess, it just touches such a raw nerve for me today. Groups can be helpful and wonderful, from what I've read, especially if everyone in the group is working on the same things. But you need to be ready for it. I hate the idea that you have to give up something to get this thing you aren't even sure you want!
Can you call your insurance company and ask if it is true that you have to switch to group? Or maybe talk about it over the next few sessions.
I'm worried about you. Don't do anything "rash" just stand up for your rights. You are the consumer here!
(((Karen)))
(I didn't mean to make this about me...such a raw nerve...)
Posted by antigua on February 20, 2004, at 15:02:11
In reply to Re: Yuck.. what a horrid few days » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on February 20, 2004, at 14:42:36
I'm really sorry you banged your head on top of all this. I know, you're in the middle of a really elaborate dream. Wake up!!!! Oh well, I tried.
I agree w/Dinah and Daisy about taking care of yourself. We all care about you very much.
I know group is supposed to be the treatment of choice for people in situations similar to my own (something about you can't get over the shame alone, or something like that), but I tried it and it turned out badly for me. I assume that it was me, and not the group, because I never felt comfortable, and I made other people uncomfortable as well when I spoke (someone actually told me that!).
Another question to consider: you said the group members are about your age. Do they face the same issues you do? If not, you might want to ask your T how he sees the group being helpful to you. This is a very private issue, and as you say, you have a hard enough time just talking about it to your T.
Good luck,
antigua
Posted by tabitha on February 20, 2004, at 15:56:19
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Karen, here's my $.02 about group. Group isn't a substitute for individual therapy. I've gone to different kinds. I went to a couple of no-cost, public support groups. They were nice as an addition to therapy. You'd get about the same support there as you get here at Babble. You can vent, and find that you're not alone, and get some support, but it isn't really like therapy. You can also get triggered and upset by other people, and there's no opportunity to process it.
I'm now going to a process group run by my therapist. Going there has actually made me need *more* individual therapy, because it triggers a lot of issues. There isn't time to process it all within the group itself. My therapist has told me it typically takes a year until a group of that type feels more like a support than a challenge.
I don't know what kind of group your therapist runs. Maybe it's like everyone gets 15 minutes of indiviual attention. If so, you're bound to feel short-changed. If it's a full-on process group, where the main focus is the interactions among members, well then you may need the individual sessions to cope with it.
Regardless, it sounds like you're pretty sure you don't want to lose the individual attention. I hope you can work your health plan to get what you need.
Posted by EmmyS on February 20, 2004, at 16:12:52
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
You poor pooky! How's your noggin'?
At some point, I could imagine doing group therapy, but not with the same T. I can't imagine sharing his focus. Although I'd be intrigued by the idea of seeing him interact with other people, I would not be comfortable having him watch me! I'd need to start fresh with a new therapist if I did group.
So this is a group for people with depression? It has nothing to do with abuse histories?
At the end of the 4 indiv sessions, does that mean your insurance runs out? Can you get a discount after that and go less frequently?
Emmy
Posted by All Done on February 20, 2004, at 16:59:20
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
(((Karen))),
I’m so sorry you’re going through this. It seems so strange and wrong to me that Bubba isn’t giving you any options other than group therapy or no therapy. That is what he’s saying, no? Did you ask him specifically why you can not continue individual therapy with him? Has his supervisor dictated this change? If that’s the case, why aren’t they offering to switch therapists for you?
I think you need some additional information from Bubba or his supervisor to process all of this (either with Bubba or eventually, with a new therapist). I might suggest talking to Bubba’s supervisor yourself. There must be a reason for this “request”. It doesn’t seem they’ve given you much of a chance to address any the issues they are trying to address by switching you to group therapy.
Sorry if I’m not very helpful. I feel like I have a lot of questions for you, but maybe that’s just because (at least in my experience) sometimes it’s difficult to relay the whole story to us Babblers.
I know you’re a smart girl, so you will do what’s best for you. Please just remember that this is *your* choice. Don’t do anything you’re not comfortable with and keep yourself informed. (I know you're good at asking the tough questions :).)
Take care,
All Done
Posted by fallsfall on February 20, 2004, at 17:00:57
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Karen,
This whole thing sounds like your therapist has countertransference.
I know that you would like to stay with him. And I think that you *have* made a lot of progress with him, and I would assume that would continue. At the same time, I think that you (like I) are a challenging client - and I think that a more experienced therapist would make it a smoother ride for you. So, I guess that I have mixed feelings about you going to another therapist.
But going into group instead of individual is a completely different thing. I've been in 3 groups (2 process & DBT) and I was in individual the whole time (and it was a good thing - I agree with Tabitha). There were some people who were in those groups who were not in individual, but they were much farther along in the process than I was (and than you are). They were on their way to quitting therapy, so they stepped down from individual to group. Somehow, I don't think that you fit into that category.
So, I am really confused that Bubba is recommending that you go to group instead of individual - just so you can stay with him. And then recommending that you lie? Am I understanding this right? He is recommending that you exaggerate your symptoms so that you "need" to go back to individual? What happened to honesty? How can a therapist recommend that you lie? I hope I got this wrong.
The other thing that worries me is that someone is making a decision about the types of clients that he should have. It sounds like that someone is not him (maybe his supervisor?). I know that I see the world through rose colored glasses, and the world isn't always as nice as I think it should be, but... The person making this decision has a reason - they wouldn't be moving people around with no reason - you just don't do that with therapists and their clients. I have to believe that if it would truly be better for you to stay with him, that you (or you and he) should be able to go to that person and plead your case. IF the two of you have a good case that you should stay with him, don't you think that you could convince his supervisor of this? Then you wouldn't have to do the group & lie thing.
If you can't convince his supervisor that it is better for you to stay with him, then MAYBE it ISN'T better for you to stay with him. There may be something that the supervisor knows about that you don't know about (and that Bubba either isn't telling you, or that he doesn't know about either). My experience in business (and I've been both on the management side and the individual side) tells me that if you can't convince the "powers that be" that you have a valid point, then maybe there is more to the decision than you are aware of.
But, let's say you talk to his supervisor, and you tell him that you have made lots of progress with Bubba, and you are getting so you can trust him with stuff, and if you change therapists it will take you 6 months to get to this level of trust and you only have 14 months of therapy to go before you move (fill in the correct numbers...), and that you realize that Bubba may make some mistakes but that you are willing to take that risk and be extra forgiving to him, or whatever. And the supervisor says "No", but won't give you a reason that you can agree with. Then you COULD, at that point, ask if you could do a consultation with another therapist and see if this other therapist can be convinced by you or the supervisor about which way would be better for you.
This is a long winded way of saying that if you have to do all sorts of questionable things to get what you want, that maybe there's more to it than you understand.
I know you adore him and he's helped you a lot. I'm just not quite convinced that you might not do *better* with someone else. I'm just concerned.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2004, at 2:39:25
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
> This is Bull sh[*]t!
I'm sorry you got hit in the head, but please don't use language that could offend others.
If you have any questions about this or comments about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways to express yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 8:58:37
In reply to Re: please be civil » Karen_kay, posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2004, at 2:39:25
Posted by terrics on February 22, 2004, at 9:27:05
In reply to Yuck.. what a horrid few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 20, 2004, at 13:49:09
Sorry your having a hard time. Have you ever participated in group therapy before. Maybe it will be better then you think. Are you just angry or are you afraid too. I would be afraid as I do not do well in groups, but I would give it a shot. Is there a reason you cannot stay in indivdual if you wanted? No one can force this on you, can they? terrics
Posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 12:49:46
In reply to Re: Yuck.. what a horrid few days » Karen_kay, posted by terrics on February 22, 2004, at 9:27:05
Hey all! Have I told everyone here how truly wonderful each and every person is? If I haven't then I've just been wrapped up in some other things and I'm sorry. But, you are all truly wonderful and gifted....
I've just been thinking recently and I've had sort of a moment of enlightenment. Hopefully, it stays with me until I die.I just realized that it doesn't matter if I go to group. It's not really that important. My life is beautiful, and things always seem to turn out great for me. (Please don't confuse this message with sarcasm, as I'm being honest and crying as I type.)
I don't really have a choice in the matter. I can go to group, or start individual therapy with a new therapist. Those are my options. And, Bubba's taught me so much that I think I'll take my chances with group. Maybe after group, I'll be done with therapy (as I believe that's the ultimate goal, to send individuals to group who are ready to leave.)
I've learned enough from Bubba, and myself, that even if after group my therapy is done, that's fine with me. I have the knowledge to challenge my negative thoughts. I know how to "double check" my actions and motivations.
I don't feel it's important to continue this quest I have for all of the imformation regarding my father. What's in the past should stay there. So, I have still some resiliant memory problems. Then I'll have to work harder. Or use it to my advantage.
If after group I still need therapy, I'll work that out. I'd like to stay with Bubba, but that may not be a possibility. But, I've learned enough for a lifetime through my experiences with Bubba. And I can continue to learn on my own. I'll be sad to leave and discontinue therapy, but I've learned so much, why not give someone else my timeslot so they can learn as well.
Sorry if this sounds confusing, but I am confident that things will happen. And the most important thing is how I choose to deal with that situation.
My life is very positive and I try to stay that way. I've had to make decisions before and will have to in the future that may change my life forever. I'm confident that no matter what happens, it will turn out great. I'll make it great! I seem to have a knack for that, you know!
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 22, 2004, at 13:24:19
In reply to Sorry Dr. Bob (nm), posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 8:58:37
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2004, at 15:44:11
In reply to Re: Yummy.. what a WONDERFUL few days, posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 12:49:46
I'm sure group will go great for you. And if you aren't happy with it, you're right, you can always look for another therapist. Or go without.
I really admire your resilience. It's something I don't have a lot of, so I admire it in others.
Does Bubba say that the reason is that you're moving towards termination and that group is the next step? Is that what he said? Forgive my thickness if you've already explained. I'm feeling rather thick today. I need some caffiene I think.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 16:52:10
In reply to Re: Yummy.. what a WONDERFUL few days, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2004, at 15:44:11
No, he didn't say that for me personally I would be doing it to "finish" my therapy, but I believe he did say that was the goal for some of the clients there. He knows I have so much more to work on, but I honestly think he wants me there for personal reasons, as I am rather positive, ect.
And this is his first group and he's really excited about it. I'd like to share in that excitement, even if I'm there under shady circumstances. I think maybe his goal is for me to go there and then go back to individual as I'm not "cured" after group. Maybe a way to get around the "long-term" therapist switch... Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions...
I'm asking him about the plan for sure on Fat Tuesday, our next appointment. What would be appropriate to bring for such a holiday? Chocolate perhaps???
Hmmm.. my friend pointed out to me that I have a problem. I tend to look towards men to prove my self worth. Maybe my "resilience" proves that theory correct... But, still I do know he was raised Catholic (just as I assumed) so I still need to figure out what he's giving up.
I need to stop trying to please people, but if it makes me feel good in the process, is that a bad thing??
Posted by antigua on February 23, 2004, at 9:17:46
In reply to Re: Yummy.. what a WONDERFUL few days » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on February 22, 2004, at 16:52:10
Good luck sweetie. You know yourself better than anyone so go with what you feel. You are a strong, resilient young woman. I hope to see one of your documentaries one day!!
Lots of chocolate would be very appropriate for Fat Tuesday. The sweeter, the better.
angigua
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.