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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:52:30
I saw your recommendation for the boook "Family Evaluation" by Bowen. I'd love to hear more about this theory. Is it a family systems theory? But I assume you don't need the whole family there.
While I didn't suffer any major trauma growing up, my family dynamics was really messed up. Does it talk about things like triangling or is it a different theory of family problems?
Posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 11:36:03
In reply to Family Evaluation - Medusa, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:52:30
> Is it a family systems theory? But I assume you don't need the whole family there.
>Yes, and that's correct.
> Does it talk about things like triangling or is it a different theory of family problems?
>Triangling is one part of the theory, but concepts such as "Differentiation of Self" (http://www.georgetownfamilycenter.org/pages/conceptds.html) and "Emotional Cutoff" (http://www.georgetownfamilycenter.org/pages/conceptec.html) are key as well.
I still haven't figured out the main differences between the Bowen / Georgetown approach to family systems and the Mental Research Institute / Palo Alto approach. Some key players in both have spent time at NIMH, and I'm interested in where the split (if there is one) came from. I'm slogging my way through Roberta Gilbert's book, _Extraordinary Relationships_ which is supposed to be Bowen Lite, but something about her writing style makes the concepts LESS accessible than Kerr's book does.
My therapy institute is affiliated with the Palo Alto group. In the first meeting I had there, unobserved, the therapist didn't seem any better than any other talk therapist I've seen over the years. What systems stuff she applied was straight out of a book, with apparently no regard for applicability to my case. But in the observed program, the trainee/therapist is consistently on-task and I've made fundamental progress in a couple of key areas.
For example, I've spent my life hung up on feelings of responsibility for my siblings. I've put their needs (as I perceive them) way ahead of my own ... and when I've finally drawn boundaries and enforced them, it's led to cut-off. Other therapists have said I should concentrate on myself. This therapist/therapy team asked me what I wanted from my siblings. I couldn't think of anything. She took one in particular (recent boundary-setting and now apparent cut-off) and asked what I wanted from him. Still nothing. Finally I said, well I'd like my siblings to take interest in me as a person. The therapist wanted to know how I could achieve that. I had a couple of ideas, and she said, listen, your assignment for next month is to come up with a strategic plan for getting your siblings to take interest in you as a person.
Over a couple of days, I realized, crystal-clear, that I didn't care to strive for my siblings' interest in me, as a person or otherwise. Burden lifted, case closed.
There are unanswered questions in my sibling relationships, for sure. But I suddenly have clarity about what I need to do:
1) I have to learn how to not stand in my own way when siblings +do+ take interest in me, and
2)I have to revive contact with siblings I don't even +like+.
I'm not sure how to accomplish these, but I'll figure it out on my own (or with the help of a communications coach I know). The main hang-up I had in resolving this issue has been dissolved.
Posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 11:47:54
In reply to Family Evaluation - Medusa, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:52:30
Dinah, here's a profile of Murray Bowen:
http://www.abacon.com/famtherapy/bowen.html
It says, "Murray Bowen's emphasis on theory and insight as opposed to action and technique distinguish his work from the more behaviorally oriented family therapists" - so maybe that's a key difference between Georgetown Family Center and Mental Research Institute's approaches.
Call me cynical and superficial, but I can't help remarking that Bowen died a natural death, while Don Jackson, who founded MRI, committed suicide ...
Posted by tabitha on December 31, 2003, at 16:57:16
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation, posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 11:36:03
I can't imagine what an action plan to get your siblings to take interest in your life would look like. How on earth can you make someone do that from your side? I guess I've been influenced by codependency writings so much-- the idea that it's not healthy to try to get others to change.
Anyway I'm glad you resolved the issue for yourself. I'm just surprised a therapist would make a suggestion like that.
Posted by Medusa on January 1, 2004, at 3:57:16
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation » Medusa, posted by tabitha on December 31, 2003, at 16:57:16
> I'm just surprised a therapist would make a suggestion like that.
>
Hi Tabitha, I think that's the point. Instead of arguing that I shouldn't bother with my siblings, they said, "Do it! Make it work!"
My first ideas were -
- stop giving my siblings things/help/connections etc (this fosters the give/take imbalance and feeds their view of me as a supplier)
- show them who I am (by speaking up about what's important to me)and then I realized, I could keep on working toward this "goal", and could probably play a fancy game that *could* achieve a certain end ... but I didn't care.
So I feel like I got the fast-track version of giving up on Project Siblings, rather than having to work through feelings and guilt for "abandoning" and and and. Call it mind-games on the therapist team's part ... but I don't care, because it got me to where I wanted to be, in the space of one session and the week following.
I also don't care whether this was their intention. It feels like progress - tremendous relief - and so if they do happen to want to continue on the sibling question, I'm not sure I'll cooperate, unless they can give me novel challenges.
Posted by jay on January 1, 2004, at 6:26:39
In reply to Family Evaluation - Medusa, posted by Dinah on December 31, 2003, at 8:52:30
I still have to check out the Bowen book, but to note there are many, many different types of family systems theory. One of the current most popular approaches is using a behavioural technique in FS theory.
This approach focuses on the attaining positive behaviour within the family unit. Reward/Punishment are the norm. Personally, I find this approach a bit to "cold", but works best as part of the bigger picture.
The communications approach focuses on both how and what family members say. The idea here is to clear the 'fog' and such that doesn't allow family members to truly express themselves. There is also practice in *how* a family member says something.
I've seen Family Systems work very well if done right. Hence, you might want to shop around to get some place where you feel both comfortable and confident in your counsellor.
Best,
Jay
Posted by DaisyM on January 1, 2004, at 14:23:09
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation - Medusa » Dinah, posted by jay on January 1, 2004, at 6:26:39
I have a caution around FS work -- it is very important that Therapists have a pretty complete view of the whole picture of the dynamics - Especially if they don't know/haven't met all of the members of the family. And there are children involved.
Example:
My son has an anxiety disorder. One of the issues that came out was that he was "afraid" (he was 11) of his father's angry outbursts. (Note: this child as never been hit, spanked, etc.) His Therapist recommended that he talk with his dad about how it made him feel. Ok, good recommendation except that Dad is on steroids for a chronic illness which cloud your judgement and limit your ability to control your emotions. Also, an 11-year-old has no sense of "timing." He of course tried to tell his dad about his feelings in the middle of an outburst and it was taken as disrespectful, which made it worse...it was a disaster. Ultimately dad felt horrible and even more guilty about being sick and child felt like he couldn't/shouldn't talk to dad. Therapist apologized to child and admitted it was a bad plan, he should have checked it out with mom (you think???) and they spent months undoing the damage.Clear communication is a very complicated concept. Sometimes there are real reasons not to express yourself.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:28:45
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation, posted by Medusa on December 31, 2003, at 11:36:03
Hmmm... I could see a lot in the examples that I could relate with.
My family was a prototype of triangling. When I was little, it was my Mom and me against my evil Dad. When I got into my late teens it was my Dad and me against my ridiculous Mom, though I maintained strong ties with her too. My brother was pretty much on the outside of all ties, and the only thing I learned from him is that if you're not a good child in my family, they'll turn on you in a second with ruthless cruelty.
I went from being waaaay overenmeshed with my family to being really emotionally cut off, but I'm ok wth that. My brother was never close to me growing up, and I can't even imagine wanting any sort of relationship with him. He's nice enough I guess, but almost like a stranger to me. I can't imagine wanting to have him accept me or really wanting any deep relationship with him at all. Like I said, he seems nice and the dogs like him but we don't really have a lot in common.
I guess I'd be more interested in the interactions between my husband and myself. I saw some of those dynamics in the examples too. But I have no real hope that anything can change there.
I'm trying to remember in my life in all the relationships I had even a small glimpse into whether anything ever really changes, and I have to say I can't recall anything. People keep seeming to hurt each other in the same ways over and over again. And the only happy marriages seem to be where people can accept the level of misery in their own marriages.
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:36:06
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:28:45
Dinah, Have you had experience with Imago therapy? I think it is specifically for marriage counseling.
Posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:26:07
In reply to Imago therapy, posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 15:36:06
I'll have to look into that one. Could you tell me more about it?
Honestly though, marital therapy scares me witless. I'm afraid we'll say out loud what isn't compatible with retaining a workable relationship.
Posted by henrietta on January 1, 2004, at 19:22:38
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 14:28:45
Oh, dinah, there's so much more. That's not my definition of a happy marriage (I've been married 35 years). It does and can change if one can and will be open to change.
Posted by naiad on January 1, 2004, at 20:37:55
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » naiad, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:26:07
Dinah,
I don't know enough about Imago Therapy to do it justice, I am sure. The general idea is that you are attracted to and marry the perfect person to work out long term issues and needs.Hey, if this really works then I wouldn't need my therapsit! There is a hope after all! Just kidding.
A friend, whose marriage has been in big trouble for a long time, told me about Imago and I am considering it even though, on the surface, my marriage is pretty stable.
Here is a website to look at for information: http://www.imagotherapy.com/
Posted by DaisyM on January 1, 2004, at 22:07:43
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » naiad, posted by Dinah on January 1, 2004, at 16:26:07
I agree...somethings are better left unsaid.
I picked up "Should You Leave" at the University Library last week. I'm only half-way through it but it is *pretty* good. I got it not due to marital problems but because it was recommended as a good examination of different Therapy philosophies and the difference between psychotherapy and giving advice. From this perspective, it has been very interesting. The author is questioning why Therapists don't give advice and arguing both sides as well as the actual truth of the statement.
Posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 9:06:20
In reply to Re: Family Evaluation » Dinah, posted by henrietta on January 1, 2004, at 19:22:38
I'm happy that your experiences were different. :)
Admittedly my parent's marriage is just about as bad as one can be in the absence of physical abuse, but even the best marriages I know seem to be based on accepting what is, not changing.
Maybe my view is warped though.
Posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 9:09:54
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » Dinah, posted by DaisyM on January 1, 2004, at 22:07:43
I don't want to give the wrong impression. My husband is a good man and a good father. I would never ever leave him, and don't think i could live without him.
It's just that he has as high expectations for my son and I as he has for himself, and that's just not easy to live with. I've dragged him to parenting specialists, etc. but while he might try to change for a little while, it just doesn't stick.
I can't imagine a good outcome from marriage therapy, just a disruption of the stability and a lot of painful revelations that shouldn't be made.
Posted by DaisyM on January 2, 2004, at 14:25:11
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 9:09:54
I never meant to imply otherwise. I think the title of the book is off putting because the whole premise is exactly what you've said...much of living with someone else is accepting them and their stuff.
I'm the one with high expectations at my house. As a child-development specialist my poor husband has to hear all the time about the "right way!" He ignores me mostly :)
Posted by Kupord Maizzed on February 18, 2004, at 10:47:45
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » DaisyM, posted by Dinah on January 2, 2004, at 9:09:54
Dinah,
My wife and I encountered Imago Therapy a few years ago when my dad gave us the "Getting the Love You Want" book. We read a lot of it and started on the exercises, but I have to admit it probably needed more discipline and maturity than we had.
Lately my dad gave us an Imago video workshop that we are going through with better success. The video workshop takes what I think is a little more refined approach. We are very impressed. Well anyway, I better explain what Imago Therapy is.
Imago Therapy is only for romantic couples. The idea is that you are attracted to a person who fits your internal image of your primary caretakers, particularly in their undesirable traits. The reason for this is that your sub-conscious (or nature, or--to me--God) wants to resolve and heal all your childhood wounds, and when it finds just the right person with whom all the childhood issues can be relived and resolved, it applies the anesthesia of romantic love and ZAP! you find yourself married before you know what hit you. Then when the anesthesia wears off, you start reliving the issues of your childhood until by love and maturity the two of you are able to heal and resolve each others' childhood wounds.
It is a beautiful and loving--but difficult and demanding--theory, for which reasons my wife and I find it deeply satisfying. It seems just REAL, like life. The idea of growth through difficulty is what life is all about.
In the course of the therapy you reveal new understandings about each other that enable each other to feel more compassion and desire to help and love.
I think that the combination of getting an EXPLANATION of your conflicts and receiving a REVELATION of your spouse's innocent wounds is powerful and sound. But it is a challenging type of therapy that requires committment and some maturity. I only hope my wife and I will see it to the end.
Posted by Naiad on February 18, 2004, at 15:20:36
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » Dinah, posted by Kupord Maizzed on February 18, 2004, at 10:47:45
Dear Kupord,
I think I am the one who introduced Imago to this board back in January. No one seemed to know much about it (including me) until you. Since then, my husband and I have attended an Imago Workshop weekend and it was a transformative experience. It was probably the most important 48 hours of our 23 year old marriage.
Thank you for your excellent description. Now we are considering going to an Imago therapist for a tune up because, as you know, this process requires an ongoing commitment to growth.
Take care.
P.S. My favorite part of the workshop was "Re-romantisizing" What is your favorite or most meaningful exercise?
Posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 15:53:33
In reply to Re: Imago therapy » Dinah, posted by Kupord Maizzed on February 18, 2004, at 10:47:45
I don't think we ever had a *romantic* relationship. We were good friends with a lot in common who started dating and eventually got married.
We'd both probably snort at the idea of romance.
I'm not sure I have the nerve for marital therapy at all, but would Imago work for fraternal rather than romantic relationships?
Posted by Naiad on February 18, 2004, at 17:53:28
In reply to Re: Imago therapy - Naiad » Kupord Maizzed, posted by Dinah on February 18, 2004, at 15:53:33
Hi Dinah,
I guess the best part about Imago for me is that it is not just marital therapy (the relationship) -- it is about the individuals in the relationship and why they have chosen each other for a long term relationship. So even though Imago therapy is for couples, it speaks very clearly to each individual's issues. I learned so much about myself and my childhood issues and how my limbic brain reacts to what I perceive as danger (abandonment). My husband is a dear but he is a big time avoider of conflict. When he employs his avoidance tactics, I act angry but am truly terrified of abandonment.
Now, I seem to be not answering your question...
I think Imago would be great for married pals. Or did you mean literally *fraternal* realtionships?I knew I would be back to Babble. Thanks, Dinah, for being here.
Posted by Kupord Maizzed on February 19, 2004, at 8:00:12
In reply to Re: Imago therapy - Naiad » Dinah, posted by Naiad on February 18, 2004, at 17:53:28
My favorite part? Wow. I think my favorite thing is just the realization that there is a great spiritual purpose to the pairing process. I like contemplating how Harville Hendrix journeyed from divorce to the discovery of the Imago theory. I liked the insights the Parent-Child dialogue and the Guided Visualizations have given us into our own and each others' hopes and fears.
Posted by Dinah on February 19, 2004, at 12:06:39
In reply to Re: Imago therapy - Naiad » Dinah, posted by Naiad on February 18, 2004, at 17:53:28
Glad to see you again. :)
I'm not sure about marital therapy.... I have this feeling it would open worm cans that are better left closed.
I'm glad it's working for you, though!
This is the end of the thread.
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