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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 18:08:32
In reply to Re: disclaimer re judging her » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 18:02:49
> I try never to come between therapist and client, but perhaps you should suggest that she seek supervision for your case? It seems as if she's having some significant struggles.
yeah, you've suggested that before. i don't want her to get supervision, though, especially if it means she's not going to do stuff like this anymore. i'm interested in why you think she's struggling, though. i think she's trying to do what's best for me. i think she's mostly *doing* what's best for me. i don't think i'm depressed because of what she said. i think it's independent.
hey, i don't want to end up trying to defend her or have a long back and forth that's not going to interest you, so just share your thoughts if you feel like sharing them, and i'll listen with an open mind.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 18:18:32
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long), posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 17:31:26
>
> She had finished reading "In Session" and returned it to me. We started off talking about that, how it was hard for her to read it, there was stuff that she recegnized as her own mistakes in there.> She said she found it hard to live up to the ideal of keeping her needs out of the room entirely.
> She got a little uncomfortable, like she wasn't sure she wanted to answer me or make me talk. We had a long silence. Then she said she got the impression she was tantalizing to me, that I felt like she'd given me mixed messages. I said that was true.
If these were things my therapist said to me, I'd ask him to get some supervision. They seem like struggles to me. But perhaps I'm wrong.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 18:40:17
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
Crushedout,
I am wondering about your frame of mind as a result of this. Do you think that a romantic relationship could start or are you just flattered, knowing that a relationship couldn't be possible?
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:10:19
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 18:40:17
I think I'm mostly just flattered. I *always* hope that a romantic relationship could start (not hoping it leaves me with no hope at all, if that makes any sense), but I know realistically that is not possible. Her boundaries on this have always been clear, and she reiterated them today.I think those boundaries are what's making me feel depressed. I want her so bad.
But I think her telling me she's been attracted to me just makes me feel a lot less alone and pathetic for having had this crush on her all this time (it's been over a freakin' year). And it makes me feel good about myself, like maybe someone like her really could want me someday. (Too bad I only want her and not someone "like" her. :( )
> Crushedout,
>
> I am wondering about your frame of mind as a result of this. Do you think that a romantic relationship could start or are you just flattered, knowing that a relationship couldn't be possible?
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:14:18
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long) » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 18:18:32
> >
> > She had finished reading "In Session" and returned it to me. We started off talking about that, how it was hard for her to read it, there was stuff that she recegnized as her own mistakes in there.
>
> > She said she found it hard to live up to the ideal of keeping her needs out of the room entirely.
>
> > She got a little uncomfortable, like she wasn't sure she wanted to answer me or make me talk. We had a long silence. Then she said she got the impression she was tantalizing to me, that I felt like she'd given me mixed messages. I said that was true.
>
> If these were things my therapist said to me, I'd ask him to get some supervision. They seem like struggles to me. But perhaps I'm wrong.Sh*t, I can't help but engage! I hope I'm not being annoying. I see all of these as examples of why she *doesn't* need supervision (as much as most other Ts, anyway) because she's aware and being honest about her limitations and bringing all of this stuff out in the open. She feels (and I tend to agree) that Lott's idea that a therapist should keep all of her needs out of the room is an ideal, not something that Ts can actually fully live up to. So I don't see this as a problem, that she's willing to admit to her weaknesses.
It's hard because I've presented this imperfectly. When she was saying it, I'm sure it didn't sound so -- incriminating's not the right word, but I don't know what is.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 19:21:22
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long) » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:14:18
Supervision's not a dirty word. :) My therapist is a great believer in ongoing supervision. Not only does he provide it for other therapists, but he belongs to a peer group that provides a sort of mutual supervision, or peer consultation or something. He says he hasn't sought help with my case recently, and that when he does, it's concentrated on *his* issues. I rather suspect that he sought supervision when he was having a bit of a personal reaction to my dependence, because he got a whole lot better with it more quickly than you might expect.
If a therapist's personal feelings are engaged by any particular client, another objective view of the situation keeps their feelings from obscuring their judgement.
It's not an extreme measure, and it's doesn't mean that anything is horribly wrong. It's just good clinical practice.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 19:24:31
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long) » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:14:18
Incidentally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if my therapist didn't decide to seek supervision when he found himself explaining his reaction to me as being a problem he has with dependent women. Obviously, confiding that to me was not particularly good clinical practice, and I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't notice that and see it as a sign that he could use an objective view.
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:27:59
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long) » crushedout, posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 19:21:22
I know supervision's not a bad thing, but (a) I'm just not convinced she needs it (although if I were objective, I might have to agree that she does), and probably much more significantly, (b) I don't want her to treat me "correctly" -- I want to sleep with her and hear about her life and her fantasies and her attraction to me all the time. It's bad enough I loaned her "In Session" but luckily she didn't seem to agree with everything in there.
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:33:47
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long) » Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:27:59
As I recall, this is where we ended up in this conversation last time we had it, Dinah (with the CD incident). Sorry I'm so stubborn and don't want what's best for me, like you do.I just don't. The idea of intentionally helping her to foreclose possibilities that might lead to "inappropriate" intimacy with me is a fate worse than death.
> I know supervision's not a bad thing, but (a) I'm just not convinced she needs it (although if I were objective, I might have to agree that she does), and probably much more significantly, (b) I don't want her to treat me "correctly" -- I want to sleep with her and hear about her life and her fantasies and her attraction to me all the time. It's bad enough I loaned her "In Session" but luckily she didn't seem to agree with everything in there.
Posted by Dinah on February 5, 2004, at 19:38:10
In reply to sorry I'm a pain, Dinah, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:33:47
You aren't a pain, Crushed. I *do* wish you didn't have to *feel* this kind of pain.
Maybe it will make you feel better to remember that it isn't your job to help her "foreclose possibilities." It's hers, and hers alone.
I just don't want to see you hurt any more than you have to be. :( And I'm sad that her actions have contributed to the pain that you can't avoid, because you're already feeling it.
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:38:44
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long), posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 17:31:26
I just realized something that's kind of ironic (although I may be misusing the word "ironic"):In the same session that she talked about how she makes the mistake of trying to fill my needs instead of examining them, she filled my need (to hear that she was attracted to me), although she did try to examine it, too. But I wasn't that forthcoming. Hmm.
Posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 21:12:21
In reply to I just realized something, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:38:44
I think your therapist is very similar to mine. Filling the need rather than examining why the need is there. Sure, they may think they know why the need is there, but I think (and I may be wrong in your case, so excuse me) they are quick to fill the need. But, it sure does feel GRAND, doesn't it? At least it does for me. Why are you feeling depressed now knowing that your therapist does find you attractive, and has at times wanted to take care of you? I'm rather confused on that matter. Forgive me, but I'm a bit out of sorts right now. If this post confuses you as much as it's confusing me, please just disregard it.
But, try to at least take comfort in the knowledge that your therapist does have wonderful thoughts about you. Keep in mind the boundaries, of course, but fantasies are always wonderful. What I always remember is, "Well, if a wonderful man like Bubba could fall into my trap, there's always another one similar to him out there... He can't be the only perfect one out there....." It's a big self esteem boost. Try to remember, if a caring, beautiful woman like your therapist, who also knows your "secrets" could possibly think you're wonderful, then there's a boat load of other wonderful, caring people out there for you to choose from as well.... That's how I try to frame it at least...
As for Dinah's supervision take... I'll stsay out of that mess. The mere hint of a supervisor taking a look at anything scares the life out of me. Supervision, to me, suggests something's gone wrong. And when something's gone wrong, I just plain don't like it! I would never suggest any type of "outsider" step in, as I don't like anyone knowing my secrets or anyone getting involved who doesn't have to be. No Way! That jsut gives someone a chance to say, "Maybe you should terminate." Nuh, Uh! But, Dinah is always very helpful :) I'm just stubborn :)
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 21:22:11
In reply to Re: I just realized something » crushedout, posted by Karen_kay on February 5, 2004, at 21:12:21
Yeah, I totally agree with everything you said (except maybe the supervision part, where I only sort of agree), Karen, and you're making perfect sense. And that's just the thing: I have no idea why I feel so down right now. I think it may have nothing to do with what she said. I think it may just be chemical. (I lowered my meds *very slightly* a couple weeks ago -- I'm wondering if that could be it, but I don't want to get redirected to the med board).
I wish I could let this sink in and I could be happy about it. It's really what I've always wanted to hear, and haven't dared to ask. Part of the problem is I can't imagine there's another one like her out there. It's part of being in love. I have eyes for NO ONE else. And I mean no one. Not even imaginary people. Okay, maybe Ellen Degeneres, but only slightly. She's not therapist-y enough. So, I feel pretty depressed, I suppose, that she and I can never be lovers. It's devastating, really. I can't even accept it, it's so devastating. I keep trying to think of ways that we can.
> I think your therapist is very similar to mine. Filling the need rather than examining why the need is there. Sure, they may think they know why the need is there, but I think (and I may be wrong in your case, so excuse me) they are quick to fill the need. But, it sure does feel GRAND, doesn't it? At least it does for me. Why are you feeling depressed now knowing that your therapist does find you attractive, and has at times wanted to take care of you? I'm rather confused on that matter. Forgive me, but I'm a bit out of sorts right now. If this post confuses you as much as it's confusing me, please just disregard it.
>
> But, try to at least take comfort in the knowledge that your therapist does have wonderful thoughts about you. Keep in mind the boundaries, of course, but fantasies are always wonderful. What I always remember is, "Well, if a wonderful man like Bubba could fall into my trap, there's always another one similar to him out there... He can't be the only perfect one out there....." It's a big self esteem boost. Try to remember, if a caring, beautiful woman like your therapist, who also knows your "secrets" could possibly think you're wonderful, then there's a boat load of other wonderful, caring people out there for you to choose from as well.... That's how I try to frame it at least...
>
> As for Dinah's supervision take... I'll stsay out of that mess. The mere hint of a supervisor taking a look at anything scares the life out of me. Supervision, to me, suggests something's gone wrong. And when something's gone wrong, I just plain don't like it! I would never suggest any type of "outsider" step in, as I don't like anyone knowing my secrets or anyone getting involved who doesn't have to be. No Way! That jsut gives someone a chance to say, "Maybe you should terminate." Nuh, Uh! But, Dinah is always very helpful :) I'm just stubborn :)
Posted by fallsfall on February 5, 2004, at 22:09:17
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
I can see in your description how she is trying to maintain her boundaries. That, I think, is a good thing.
Sharing her attraction with you, however, does put you in a position of continuing to hope for more - and that could be a bad thing.
Have you ever talked with someone whose therapist DID violate these kinds of boundaries? I think that it might be helpful for you to know what they thought about it at the time and what they think about it now. I have not had this experience, or I would share it with you. If you were interested, you could post an email address for them to write to you - it might be something they don't want to put on a public board.
I understand your longing (believe me - I've had the longing in a maternal sense with my old therapist). I understand the intensity. I understand why you wouldn't want to give it up. I also worry about you.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:14:29
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
I'm wondering if maybe you are feeling a little depressed because you unconsciously know that she may have crossed a boundary that you may have told yourself that you wanted her to cross, but know unconsciously that that boundary should stay in tact? Does this make sense? While it is flattering to know she finds you attractive, maybe subconsciously you know that the most helpful realtionship for you is one of "Dr. and Patients" as it were. Perhaps you could feel somewhat betrayed by her admission? Am I making any sense, I feel I am not.
ANother thing I've been thinking about and I could be completely out of line: Maybe you are feeling depressed because the thrill of the chase may be over by her admission. Was it exciting to you to maybe think that you could get a heterosexual woman to admit her attraction to you? And now that she has admitted her attraction, is the chase over? So many times the fantasy is much more wonderful than the reality. Sometimes I think that there is no way a person could be 100% gay, just like I think it is rare to be 100% heterosexual. I have sometimes tried to convince a gay man, who I think has some attraction for women, to at least admit a desire sometimes for women. I will admit that there are times when I feel desire for a woman, although that is not my dominant proclivity. I just wonder if getting her to admit a possibility of "batting for the other team" as it were was a challenge to you, and now that you have been successful, you feel somewhat let down.
Just my awful psychology. Any thoughts?
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:22:50
In reply to Re: I got my wish » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on February 5, 2004, at 22:09:17
You know, it's weird, but I feel less hopeful that we may have a relationship than I did before, if anything. I guess I've never really had a realistic hope for it. But I think that's why I'm so depressed, because it keeps sinking in that I can never have her. I think the only way she might be able to take my hope away would have been to tell me she's not the least bit attracted to me and never could be, but that would be so mean, I can't imagine why on earth she would do that. And that would cause other problems, I would think (i.e., contribute to low self-esteem). So, I really don't think she's fueled my hopes by telling me that (the truth is, I already sensed it, anyway -- she just confirmed what I knew in my gut).I guess the problem with it is that it feels all the more tantalizing. I want her, she wants me, the only thing keeping us from being lovers is the therapeutic relationship (oh, and her husband and kid maybe also). So maybe that's contributing to my depression. But it was tantalizing anyway. Now I just know it for sure.
Thank you for worrying about me. It's really sweet. I'm worried about me, too.
And if anyone wants to email me about this, it would be great. You can use petitsnickers@yahoo.com. I don't always check that address often, but I'll try to remember to check it in the next few days or so.
> I can see in your description how she is trying to maintain her boundaries. That, I think, is a good thing.
>
> Sharing her attraction with you, however, does put you in a position of continuing to hope for more - and that could be a bad thing.
>
> Have you ever talked with someone whose therapist DID violate these kinds of boundaries? I think that it might be helpful for you to know what they thought about it at the time and what they think about it now. I have not had this experience, or I would share it with you. If you were interested, you could post an email address for them to write to you - it might be something they don't want to put on a public board.
>
> I understand your longing (believe me - I've had the longing in a maternal sense with my old therapist). I understand the intensity. I understand why you wouldn't want to give it up. I also worry about you.
Posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:14:29
Well, Miss Honey, I definitely think you're wrong about Number 2. First of all, I never assumed she was straight. She could be bi. We never discussed her orientation. And I have "recruited" plenty of "straight" women in my life so that's no longer a big thrill for me. Also, I'm totally thrilled, if I really let it sink in, that she's attracted to me. There's no let-down there (except the one when I realize we can't act on it). I'm thrilled because she's my ideal woman, and she's so cool, and beautiful, and successful, and older, and she's attracted to ME. I don't take that for granted. It's very exciting. (Even though I just sounded all full of myself for recruiting straight women so this sounds like a contradiction. But she's really SPECIAL.) There's also an even bigger challenge here: getting her to actually sleep with me. So if there's any thrill of the chase going on here, the chase is far from over. When I actually bed her, THEN maybe I will be depressed about that. (Just kidding. Sort of.)
As for your Theory Number One, it doesn't strike me as true, but I don't rule it out. I don't think so, though, no. I don't feel betrayed. How is that a betrayal? It's honesty, which I appreciate very much. I usually think it can only help.
> I'm wondering if maybe you are feeling a little depressed because you unconsciously know that she may have crossed a boundary that you may have told yourself that you wanted her to cross, but know unconsciously that that boundary should stay in tact? Does this make sense? While it is flattering to know she finds you attractive, maybe subconsciously you know that the most helpful realtionship for you is one of "Dr. and Patients" as it were. Perhaps you could feel somewhat betrayed by her admission? Am I making any sense, I feel I am not.
>
> ANother thing I've been thinking about and I could be completely out of line: Maybe you are feeling depressed because the thrill of the chase may be over by her admission. Was it exciting to you to maybe think that you could get a heterosexual woman to admit her attraction to you? And now that she has admitted her attraction, is the chase over? So many times the fantasy is much more wonderful than the reality. Sometimes I think that there is no way a person could be 100% gay, just like I think it is rare to be 100% heterosexual. I have sometimes tried to convince a gay man, who I think has some attraction for women, to at least admit a desire sometimes for women. I will admit that there are times when I feel desire for a woman, although that is not my dominant proclivity. I just wonder if getting her to admit a possibility of "batting for the other team" as it were was a challenge to you, and now that you have been successful, you feel somewhat let down.
>
> Just my awful psychology. Any thoughts?
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on February 5, 2004, at 22:41:26
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 22:32:33
I just wonder if your unconscious may view it as a betrayal, something your waking mind may not grasp yet. Unconsciously, you may really feel that a strict boundary, play by the rules, patient/therapist relationship is what is really best for you in the long run.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound flip about the issue of "recruiting." I just know it would be a big ego boost for me if a gay man said he wanted to sleep with me or found me sexually attractive. I didn't mean to sound like a smart a$$.
Posted by lookdownfish on February 6, 2004, at 3:48:49
In reply to Re: I got my wish (long), posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 17:31:26
Hi Crushed
I actually think she has acted entirely properly. She may have admitted her attraction for you, but she has in no way acted on it or given you any hope of things going further. Depressing though that is for you, I think she has handled it well. It sounds like she realised that giving the mixed messages before was a mistake, so it's good that she's been honest and it's out in the open in black and white. Yes, she's attracted to you, and No, nothing can happen between you. I know its hard as the impossibility of a relationship is now starker than ever. That is probably why you are still feeling so depressed. But hopefully you will feel less alone with it. I hope you're feeling better today.
ldf
Posted by alexandra_k on February 6, 2004, at 6:57:25
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
Hello again. I know I put my foot in it last time, but I shall have another go.....
I think that maybe you are depressed because while she admitted feeling an attraction to you she also made it clear that that would not be acted upon.
Now back to the issue of supervision......
She did admit that she perhaps didn't act so wisely in a few respects. Now to acknowledge this shows insight, but will she do it again????? Therein lies hope..... and supervision would cull that hope. No longer would these feelings of attraction be private and exclusive between the two of you (and all of us on this forum) but an objective therapists opinion would be brought to bear on the situation. That would probably be the last bit of hope destroyed. I know that it is painful, but I wonder whether this might be best for the long term. In the sense of you getting better so as to have fulfilling and reciprocal relationships with peers and in the sense that your relationship with your T may well be strengthened (and she will become a better T too which is surely good for her career).
I am sorry if this sounds cold. I really do sympathise with you and I too get that little thrill of 'but then what did she say, what did she say next, will my next p-doc do this with me do you think?????'. Just an objective (and probably completely wrong) opinion... ak.
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:42:20
In reply to Re: I got my wish » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 19:10:19
Crushed for what it is worth I think I KNOW exactly how you feel on this. I would like my T to feel attracted to me also because it gives me HOPE in my hopeless world..that someone..maybe not him but someone like him even, would find value in me. My T gives me mixed messages and I think he does but I am a coward and cannot ask. I am happy for you in a way cause now you know it's not JUST you in this. I have had it for my T WELL over a year and he has crossed lines some would say but you know..I dont care and won't sit around defending him so I never post or talk about him but inside he keeps me alive in more ways than one. ENJOY the fact she has feelings it means you have a shot with someone GOOD like her someday.
>
> I think I'm mostly just flattered. I *always* hope that a romantic relationship could start (not hoping it leaves me with no hope at all, if that makes any sense), but I know realistically that is not possible. Her boundaries on this have always been clear, and she reiterated them today.
>
> I think those boundaries are what's making me feel depressed. I want her so bad.
>
> But I think her telling me she's been attracted to me just makes me feel a lot less alone and pathetic for having had this crush on her all this time (it's been over a freakin' year). And it makes me feel good about myself, like maybe someone like her really could want me someday. (Too bad I only want her and not someone "like" her. :( )
>
>
> > Crushedout,
> >
> > I am wondering about your frame of mind as a result of this. Do you think that a romantic relationship could start or are you just flattered, knowing that a relationship couldn't be possible?
>
>
Posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
In reply to I got my wish, posted by crushedout on February 5, 2004, at 14:11:40
As I'm new here and don't know you, I hesitate to write, but h*ll, if I want people to write to me, I should answer posts that I feel I have something to say about.
What I see most clearly in this debate is that you seem to be validated by her physical attraction to you. You're an attractive woman, lots of people are attracted to you. I mean, it's east to, um, well, find people to have sex with, right? It's the rest of it that's hard, the love part. She said she was attracted to you (which if my therapist ever said to me would negate much of the trust I feel for him) but what exactly is that worth?
Feel free to tell me to piss off.
Shorte
Posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:51:40
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 12:52:25
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by shortelise on February 6, 2004, at 12:47:39
no need to p*ss off, but i don't understand your question, if there was one. want to try again?you're right, it does validate me a lot. did you already answer your own question?
> As I'm new here and don't know you, I hesitate to write, but h*ll, if I want people to write to me, I should answer posts that I feel I have something to say about.
>
> What I see most clearly in this debate is that you seem to be validated by her physical attraction to you. You're an attractive woman, lots of people are attracted to you. I mean, it's east to, um, well, find people to have sex with, right? It's the rest of it that's hard, the love part. She said she was attracted to you (which if my therapist ever said to me would negate much of the trust I feel for him) but what exactly is that worth?
>
> Feel free to tell me to piss off.
>
> Shorte
Posted by crushedout on February 6, 2004, at 13:01:19
In reply to Re: I got my wish, posted by Fallen4myT on February 6, 2004, at 12:51:40
Thank you so much, Fallen, for saying this. In the way that you did. Of course, there is always that tiny hope, because nothing is impossible, right? Anything can happen in this crazy world. And it's not even impossible that if it did happen, it wouldn't be a disaster. Although these are very unlikely outcomes, so you're right that I need to stay open to other things, and not let that hope override everything else. But if it keeps me going, why give it up entirely? I see no point. Even if she *says* it can never happen, that doesn't mean it can't. Someday, a long way down the road. If we both still want it at that point.
Like I said, this is getting far-fetched, but the point is it's not impossible. Anyway, thanks. It's good not to lose hope, as long as it's kept in perspective.
> Oh and I wanted to add though it may be dim. I think there is still a tiny bit of hope even with her..maybe. Don't give up on it , give it time, work the therapy part of it and keep your eyes and heart open to other loving people
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