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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 55 to 79 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Dinah, I can't stand that you're not posting anywhere but here. Please reconsider. I sincerely doubt that you-know-who even cares if people are mad at him.
I think everyone has pretty well shown that disclosure of strong feelings for your therapist is no mortal sin, and no responsible therapist would even consider terminating except if he/she couldn't handle his/her own emotions.
You've done a wonderful job here. Thank you for your diligence. I hope your therapist realizes how lucky he is to have you. I know I/we do.
Posted by karen_kay on October 9, 2003, at 19:44:33
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All » Dinah, posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 19:17:59
Jay, I find it disgusting that you would even mention the possibility of a therapist abandoning a client for expressing their attraction torwards the therapist. I personally have told my psychologist things like "Can I sit on your lap?" when he mentioned the aspect of reparenting. When he hospitalized me I said that a more appropriate option would be for him to hold me down all weekend. I tell him all the time how good he looks. I told him on the first consultation that I have a serious problem with becoming attracted to authority figures. I am completely innappropriate torwards my therapist. Yet, he has never once asked me to leave his office. This is because he is comfortable in the fact that he is a professional and can handle issues of sexual attraction and transference. You should not post notices with the intent of scaring people into not being completely honest with their therapists. A good a professional therapist should be capable of handling issues of transference. So people, I urge you to say what you need to! They can handle it. That is why they make the big bucks!
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 18:16:33
Maybe I'll drag myself back to life.
Sorry Penny for stealing your link.
Here's a link to the whole thread
I feel a little better now (or is it the klonopin).
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:01:16
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
Posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
I suppose that there is some hope. First, some therapies, like psychodynamic, specifically use transference as a tool. Like anything powerful, if it can be used and manipulated, it remains powerful, but is also a tool. I think that if a therapist is properly trained, the affection of a client is nothing to be feared.
Even in the case of an abuse survivor, realizing that she can have strong feelings for an authority figure, and that this authority figure will not take advantage of her, this can be an incredible realization and healing experience for the survivor.
I am a survivor. I haven't had the opportunity to experience strong or sexual transference. Perhaps I am still too distanced from my feelings. I can certainly state though, that I am an adult. I have entered therapy with the realization that an emotional or sexual relationship will not happen. My fantasies would remain fantasies. If my therapist thought them improper, I would expect her or him to tell me so, and if they could not be reigned in then that would be the time to move on. Fellings alone though, are the things that we all have, and need to treat responsibly.
Hoping I'm not way off base :-)
Dee.
Posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 22:22:34
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope. » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum in other historical threads, but as I'm getting attached to everyone here, do you care to share your stories?
My parents never cared one whit about my emotional well-being, they just concerned themselves with whether I was obedient. I was tortured and tormented by a gang in 5th grade, and then again by a couple of co-workers as an adult. I have difficulty showing my emotions, yet I yearn to connect with people emotionally. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to do that.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 22:32:20
In reply to Histories, posted by HannahW on October 9, 2003, at 22:22:34
Hi Hannah ... :o)
maybe we should start a new thread with this?
I too would like to share and get to know others a little better...
I am thinking of a new thread because i fear it will be lost here..?
Thank you for sharing about you...
I am so glad you are here :o)
lots of love,
Adia.> I'm sure this has been covered ad nauseum in other historical threads, but as I'm getting attached to everyone here, do you care to share your stories?
>
> My parents never cared one whit about my emotional well-being, they just concerned themselves with whether I was obedient. I was tortured and tormented by a gang in 5th grade, and then again by a couple of co-workers as an adult. I have difficulty showing my emotions, yet I yearn to connect with people emotionally. Now, I'm trying to figure out how to do that.
Posted by Adia on October 9, 2003, at 22:42:40
In reply to Ok, a bit of hope., posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:00:43
Dear Dinah,
of course there is hope :o) There are lots of wonderful therapists out there who do not fear their patient's feelings...I hang on to that.
I can't wait to see my therapist tomorrow and feel that yes there is hope :o) I am sure your therapist will help you feel the same...Thank you for being here, Dinah...
I am sending you lots and lots of support,
Adia.> Maybe I'll drag myself back to life.
>
> Sorry Penny for stealing your link.
>
> Here's a link to the whole thread
>
> http://www.behavior.net/cgi-bin/nph-display.cgi?MessageID=1931&Top=-1&config=legalissues&uid=nC1M8.user&new=0&adm=0
>
> I feel a little better now (or is it the klonopin).
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 10, 2003, at 1:37:32
In reply to Re: Uncle! - All, posted by karen_kay on October 9, 2003, at 19:44:33
> I find it disgusting that you would even mention the possibility of a therapist abandoning a client...
Please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by judy1 on October 10, 2003, at 10:45:30
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope. » Dinah, posted by deirdrehbrt on October 9, 2003, at 22:09:03
I have such a different perspective on all of this because I was abused as a child and then abused by a psychiatrist- which eventually led to a serious suicide attempt by me. I acknowledge that there are excellent therapists out there who recognize the special needs of a person with my history (I have one now), but we all need to accept that there are some who transgress boundaries and cause great harm to their clients. I guess I like the advice given on the forum you posted on Dinah, that clients need to be very selective when getting a therapist- particularly those with a history of abuse. Knowledge is everything, recognizing the signs of a therp who crosses boundaries- the hugging, non-payment of fees, etc.- all those things that make us feel special, can be the things that lead us to self-destruct. sorry to be so negative, this is why my shrink is so incredibly careful with me. i really shouldn't post on this- judy
Posted by karen_kay on October 10, 2003, at 15:16:25
In reply to Re: Ok, a bit of hope., posted by judy1 on October 10, 2003, at 10:45:30
I just think that some clients develope feelings of transference for their therapists as a way of dealing with former relationships in the past. A therapist, if trained properly, should know how to deal with these feelings accurately and professionally. I do not believe that an experienced therapist will abandon a client on the sole account that the client is developing feelings towards the therapist, whether they are sexual or motherly, ect. If a therapist does, then the client if far better off to find a new therapist who is better equiped to handle such feelings and emotions. When seeing a therapist, it is so important to be honest with him or her. I know how much my current therapist has helped me and I look forward to the progress we will continue to make in the future.
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
In reply to Re: The last post is the one that gives hope (nm), posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 20:01:16
He really is great. :)
He said that what we usually say is perfectly fine, but to add the reminder that not all therapists are trained to handle transference well, and that if the therapist doesn't handle it well it's the therapist's problem not the client's. And for the client not to feel that they had done anything wrong or that their feelings were unacceptable.
He told me that his training was woefully lacking in transference issues. And that most of what he learned was through ongoing supervision which he is a big fan of. (He stopped short of saying whether he still seeks out supervision or has during the time he's seen me. Didn't want to freak me out I guess. I think I'm going to ask next week.)
He said erotic transferences have come up a few times in his career and he never terminated anyone for it. He just clearly laid out the boundaries and it was never a problem.
While I was at it, I also mentioned googling therapists, which my therapist thinks is no big deal. He says that's public domain and it doesn't bother him a bit. He says going through his trash, or following him or his family would be an invasion of privacy, but not googling. He mentioned some therapists didn't like that clients could find out their addresses, but he's got his on his receipts so he doesn't mind. :) I admitted that I drove by his house once, because he lives really close to me, and I wanted to see exactly how close. He was perfectly relaxed about that. He knew that I was upset about how close he lived to me and understood that I wanted to reassure myself. He said we hadn't run into each other yet, and I set him straight. I saw him a couple of times at stores, but made a run for it. (We explored that a bit.)
He had that really careful attitude that made me aware he was wondering whether to expect an impassioned declaration of erotic transference. lol. And was prepared to be low key and reassuring about it. But that wasn't necessary. :)
So I think we've covered most everything we've talked about here over the years.
Googling
Drive by's
Erotic transference
Meeting in publicIf I've missed anything, let me know and I'll work it into the conversation on a slow day. :)
Oh, and we've extensively covered mother/baby transference and dependence in the past. He's grown tremendously as a therapist in those areas. :)
I'm so happy my therapist is who he is. :)))))))
Posted by underthecs on October 10, 2003, at 21:03:30
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
Posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 21:07:14
In reply to wish i could be that brave. you're awesome! (nm) » Dinah, posted by underthecs on October 10, 2003, at 21:03:30
Posted by Tabitha on October 10, 2003, at 21:54:00
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
good for you! you've made the world a better place by training him to be a better mom-substitute. And good for you for bringing up such sensitive issues with him.
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 0:43:00
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on October 10, 2003, at 21:54:00
Wow, I missed this whole discussion. What great articles etc. The description for the video is particularly good.
I think this thread contains good agreement. If the therapist is competent, then the client should talk about all of her feelings towards the therapist. What a relief. I don't think I could survive a therapy session where I had to decide if I could or couldn't talk about something. It is hard enough to decide if I WANT to talk about something.
My old therapist does her supervision in a group. She has brought my case to her group twice (that I know of). Particularly the second time, it made me feel like her "problem child". I was flattered that she was thinking about me so much, but certainly didn't want her to be unhappy or mad about me.
These are great discussions.
Dinah, thank you for your passion on this subject. Your concern that other posters will get the wrong idea and be hurt in therapy, or not get out of therapy what they could is so wonderful. It can be especially hard to step back in these cases and know that we can only do what we can do, and that we won't be able to convince all of the people all of the time, but that the world will still go on. Dinah, you have done a superb job of trying to point our corner of the world in the right direction. Thanks.
Posted by Adia on October 11, 2003, at 0:56:46
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by Dinah on October 10, 2003, at 18:58:49
Dear Dinah,
Thank you so much for sharing this :o)
it's 3 am and I shouldn't be posting because I am sooooo sleepy but I wanted to say thank you...
and I am so happy for you that you have such a wonderful therapist...
I talked to mine today too..and she reassured me that talking about feelings is okay..she was wonderful about it all..(the session was a bit hard because I am finally trying to open up and even though it was relieving I have been crying on and off since I got home)
But I feel relieved about this issue...
and I hope others too feel that it is perfectly okay to discuss their feelings for their therapists..How important it is to find a trained skilled therapist to work with..Fortunately there are lots of wonderful therapists out there :o)I am glad you have found yours :o)
Sorry I am so sleepy and can't find the words but I wanted to thank you for being here!
All my support,
Adia.
> He really is great. :)
>
> He said that what we usually say is perfectly fine, but to add the reminder that not all therapists are trained to handle transference well, and that if the therapist doesn't handle it well it's the therapist's problem not the client's. And for the client not to feel that they had done anything wrong or that their feelings were unacceptable.
>
> He told me that his training was woefully lacking in transference issues. And that most of what he learned was through ongoing supervision which he is a big fan of. (He stopped short of saying whether he still seeks out supervision or has during the time he's seen me. Didn't want to freak me out I guess. I think I'm going to ask next week.)
>
> He said erotic transferences have come up a few times in his career and he never terminated anyone for it. He just clearly laid out the boundaries and it was never a problem.
>
> While I was at it, I also mentioned googling therapists, which my therapist thinks is no big deal. He says that's public domain and it doesn't bother him a bit. He says going through his trash, or following him or his family would be an invasion of privacy, but not googling. He mentioned some therapists didn't like that clients could find out their addresses, but he's got his on his receipts so he doesn't mind. :) I admitted that I drove by his house once, because he lives really close to me, and I wanted to see exactly how close. He was perfectly relaxed about that. He knew that I was upset about how close he lived to me and understood that I wanted to reassure myself. He said we hadn't run into each other yet, and I set him straight. I saw him a couple of times at stores, but made a run for it. (We explored that a bit.)
>
> He had that really careful attitude that made me aware he was wondering whether to expect an impassioned declaration of erotic transference. lol. And was prepared to be low key and reassuring about it. But that wasn't necessary. :)
>
> So I think we've covered most everything we've talked about here over the years.
>
> Googling
> Drive by's
> Erotic transference
> Meeting in public
>
> If I've missed anything, let me know and I'll work it into the conversation on a slow day. :)
>
> Oh, and we've extensively covered mother/baby transference and dependence in the past. He's grown tremendously as a therapist in those areas. :)
>
> I'm so happy my therapist is who he is. :)))))))
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2003, at 9:01:33
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today » Dinah, posted by Adia on October 11, 2003, at 0:56:46
Congratulations, Adia! I'm proud of you. I know you're working on expressing your feelings, and talking about your worries about expressing your feelings is a brave thing to do.
It's funny, because it was a sort of meandering session that didn't address most of what has been really stressing me out this week. But somehow it made me feel so much better. Maybe just because I'm feeling very much in charity with him right now, and grateful to have such a professional and competent, not to mention nice, therapist.
And I did mention the few things I hadn't mentioned before, the fact that I drove by his house once being the biggest. And it felt good that he knew without my telling him why I did it. He realized it was due to the fact that I was worried that he lived so close. It's nice to be understood so well.
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2003, at 9:08:39
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today, posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 0:43:00
Thank you for being charitable. :) Passionate is a nice way to put it. I think I've been able to let it go a bit. I really love Penny's video link and really do think I'll order a few to send to the local universities.
So it made you feel good that your therapist cared enough to get supervision? I think I'd be really really uncomfortable. Which is why I need to ask him, I guess. I know at the clinic they used to have staff meetings, and I guess I had a vague knowledge that it was possible I was being discussed. And I know that when I had the pdoc from h*ll that worked with the clinic, he talked about me with him. It set our therapeutic relationship back at least a year, since said pdoc had a big mouth and told me all he had said about me.
I'd be extremely uncomfortable knowing he was discussing me in supervision now. But of course now I can't get it out of my mind. So I'll have to ask, and come to terms with it somehow if the answer is yes.
You know, he got suddenly so much better about the maternal trasnference. I suppose the most logical assumption is that he sought out supervision. I know that that was the right thing for him to do, but I feel all icky about it.
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 11:08:59
In reply to Re: Spoke to my therapist today » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on October 11, 2003, at 9:08:39
I think of supervision as getting a second opinion, as having someone not so embroiled in the situation taking a look. I know that when I'm working on something and it isn't going right, or I can't figure it out, that I really like to go and talk to other people about it - especially the "experts" in the field, but also just someone else who can help me think things through. I don't know how many times I have gone to ask someone for help, and by the time I finish explaining the problem I know what the solution is. Or people would come to ask me for help and when they were trying to explain their problem I could tell by the way they were talking where the issue or confusion was (they would hesitate, talk in incomplete sentances, have to keep referring back to other thing to get the details - they weren't SURE about that part.). So I would quiz them on that part to find where the confusion was.
That's all supervision is. I don't think the supervisor is particularly interested in the CLIENT (so it doesn't feel TO ME like an invasion of privacy) - they are more concerned with the work that the therapist is doing. Hey - a second opinion and you don't have to pay for it.
Posted by Dinah on October 11, 2003, at 11:12:25
In reply to Re: Supervision » Dinah, posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 11:08:59
Maybe it's at least partly because I didn't like what he said about me to the pdoc. :(
Posted by judy1 on October 11, 2003, at 21:51:24
In reply to Re: Supervision » fallsfall, posted by Dinah on October 11, 2003, at 11:12:25
Honestly, I was under the impression that all therapists had supervisors or mentors that worked with them on difficult cases. I know for a fact now that my ex-shrink had instruction to stop seeing me, although the abrupt manner he did it in was unethical and most definitely his idea. So not only does it help (as in second opinion) but it helps with their counter-transference. I hope you do discuss your negative feelings about it with your therp and realize the positives about it.
take care, judy
Posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 22:28:26
In reply to Re: Supervision » Dinah, posted by judy1 on October 11, 2003, at 21:51:24
The first time my therapist brought my case to supervision was 2 or 3 years into our 8 1/2 year time. The Supervision group told her that she should terminate with me. But she didn't. Supervision is recommendations and advice, but the therapist can decide what they will do. Someday I'll tell that story, but not until my life settles down a little.
Judy, I'm sorry that your therapist was abrupt. That wasn't fair.
When I was interviewing prospective therapists one of them told me that it was a requirement (either for their license, or membership in the APA or whatever, or for the state, or ???) that all therapists have supervision. I didn't get the details. I just wanted to be sure that when I drove another therapist crazy that they would have somewhere to go (Yes, that is what I thought at the time, No, I don't know if I still think that).
Posted by Dinah on October 12, 2003, at 3:52:58
In reply to Re: Supervision » Dinah, posted by judy1 on October 11, 2003, at 21:51:24
Ugh, Judy. I can't imagine. I don't even want to. I'm so sorry.
And Fallsfall, I'm sorry you had that experience too. And glad to detect an improvement in your self view. :)
Ok, maybe that's why I'm afraid of supervision. Reason number 47. There is:
My stuff is my stuff. I trust my therapist with it, but it's no one else's busniness.
As much as I trust him, I am worried that he's saying things about me that I wouldn't like, as he did once before.
I'm afraid they'll suggest something I don't like. Termination worst case (tho I think my therapist wouldn't agree to that), or some new style or tack or something. I remember once he was different somehow, and I accused him of trying a new method of dealing with me and told him I didn't like it. He denied it, but went back to his normal role the next session. Maybe he was experiencing some countertransference and wasn't aware of it till I mentioned it or maybe I was right. But I don't want some supervisor mucking about in a way I wouldn't like. There's a big enough chance of that if he goes to some seminar or something.
And variations on the above themes.
Still, I know it may be a good idea in theory. I just think I need to hear now how he uses it in practice. :(
Posted by judy1 on October 12, 2003, at 18:35:05
In reply to Re: Supervision - Dinah Judy, posted by fallsfall on October 11, 2003, at 22:28:26
> Judy, I'm sorry that your therapist was abrupt. That wasn't fair.
thank you. I think my state requires 30 days notice of termination and I received none- it wasn't fair.
>
> When I was interviewing prospective therapists one of them told me that it was a requirement (either for their license, or membership in the APA or whatever, or for the state, or ???) that all therapists have supervision. I didn't get the details. I just wanted to be sure that when I drove another therapist crazy that they would have somewhere to go (Yes, that is what I thought at the time, No, I don't know if I still think that).when I was seeing the psychiatrist assigned to investigate my ex-shrink, I'm almost certain he told me that supervision was a requirement of licensing. I'm really glad you no longer feel like the one who is to blame in case of therapeutic failure, I was told that most often the therapist cannot deal with his/her counter-transference (my case) or refuse to acknowledge that they don't have the skills to help a client. It really does take someone specialized to deal with victims of childhood abuse, or people diagnosed with borderline disorder- I'm told that's particulary difficult (also my diagnosis at one time). If you think about it- would you really want someone treating you who couldn't truly help?
take care, judy
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