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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 2:40:00
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 0:56:18
Hmmmm...
In context I don't think that's what he meant, but you have given me an idea of what he might have meant that will help me talk about it with him.
You said "Once feelings arise in you,...". That may be the point I'm confused on. Maybe he meant that I'm choosing the way that I think about things, and those thoughts are what was causing the feelings? I could choose my attitude which might change me feelings before they arise?
Or, since my therapist has a love of trite sayings, perhaps he just got confused and used two in one day. :)
Don't worry about the bread recipe. I've been so busy lately that I've often just been eating cold dry bread while working. And wolfing down fast food in the car. It's hard to care about diabetes or anything in the future when the days seem challenging enough.
I'm looking forward to trying it in my bread machine, but don't worry about when. Take care of yourself and let your body speak to you about its limits. I'm glad you're mood has improved, though. Is it a change in meds, or the ending of winter, or relaxation about your new home, or just one of those things?
Thanks,
Dinah
Posted by Tabitha on March 1, 2003, at 3:36:57
In reply to My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by Dinah on February 28, 2003, at 22:35:20
here's a literal interpretation for you...
event --> interpretation/meaning/associations--> feelings
sometimes you can change your interpretation of events to get different feeling from same events. but there's still no reason to be ashamed of feelings. after all, when you understand what events really mean to you, your feelings make sense.
for instance, i get a minor social rejection and feel really, really awful. I might feel ashamed that I feel so bad in response to what seems on the surface like a minor event. But what i don't initially realize is, I unconsciously interpreted the rejection as more evidence that I'll always be alone. So it makes sense to feel really awful, there's no reason to be ashamed of that, but I can also challenge my interpretation of the event to not mean so much, so I feel less awful.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 3:49:01
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by Tabitha on March 1, 2003, at 3:36:57
Wish my therapist could explain it as well as you. :) But hey, that's what this board is great for.
Thanks.
Posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 12:59:36
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » IsoM, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 2:40:00
See? I think of something literally like you & then you say "I could choose my attitude which might change me feelings before they arise" & I realise that - hey! that's another way of looking at it entirely. That's why I love getting people's feedback. It gives me something to think about that I didn' before.
Anyway, what you said makes good sense. I now can see if you're anticipating someone's comments to be negative (probably from past experiences with a certain person OR from a string of negative things said to you recently), it'll cloud anything said to you for the next while. Same with experiences that's happened recently. A string of negative experiences will make you mistrust something positive happening. You'll be waiting for the next shoe to fall, so to speak.
I know it's easier to say than do, mmost good ideas are. But if you can take each comment, each event as something commpletely separate, you can "choose how your attitude" about it. How's that sound?
This is how I've slowly developed my personal philosophy/outlook on life over the years - by listening to others & incorporating sensible advice & experiences into it.
But personally, I hate it when someone uses too many trite sayings. I could see myself saying to your therapist "enough of the cute sayings! Put it in your own words".
I'm feeling better from a combo of things - more sunshine & warm weather (after all this is close to Vancouver), eating better, sleeping gobs & GOBS, & yes, our own home. Thanks for asking. I'm a basically lazy person (I like to call myself sensible & body efficient ^_^ ) so I've been leting my body tell me what's needed.
Posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 14:36:02
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 0:56:18
Dinah, my guess would have been along similar lines to what IsoM said, but I do see the paradox of the two statements. Why don't you ask him to clarify?
I think in regards to the choice part of the equations, there are times when we choose to keep ourselves involved in the trigger situations that trigger our feelings, and times when we take better care of ourselves by tuning to something else, because certain situations are agitating.
Posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 14:47:26
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by Tabitha on March 1, 2003, at 3:36:57
Does make sense that way, true. But I feel there is a caveat. I think what we think is important, but the brain is important too. Those of us with such sensitivites (the Flaming Amygdala Gang?) have brains that (either because we were born that way, or from lots of hurts early on, or both) produce feelings automatically in response to triggers and cues, even before we are aware of it. The amygdala jumps into action in danger situations much quicker than the thinking part of the brain ever can, and with us Flaming Amygdalas, this happens in situations that maybe the "man on the street" might not consider dangerous, but they do signal danger to us because of our experiences and sensitivities.
So, I don't really see it as our thoughts causing our feelings perse. However, thoughts do play a role. We can learn to recognize the Flaming Amygdala signs and symptoms, become more attuned to them, and be aware of them earlier in the process (this involves tuning into body signals, I think). And we can work on building a kind of "Emergency Thought Response Action" (just made that one up--you like?) to try to deconstruct the flaming amygdala's construction of the story of what is happening, and delay the automatic response, the automatic judgments about what it going on, the conclusions we tend to draw so automatically. the ETRA can also get us to mobilize better coping strategies--and this is where the Choice part really comes in, I think. We can choose to learn better coping strategies, we can choose to use our better coping strategies once we learn them, we can choose where to put our energies--ie, into the old patterns, or into trying to take better care of ourselves.
Wow, I don't know where that came from. Hope it makes sense.
Posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 14:58:59
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 12:59:36
Yes--I guess my post before might have seemed too dismissive of the idea of thoughts causing feelings. If so, I didn't mean for it to be. I do think that y'all are right about it. For example, as you mentioned--attitude, which makes us have preconcieved anticipatory thoughts--can actually "cause" bad feelings by influencing how we interpret things we encounter. OR better thoughts can act as a screen to prevent the strong negative reactions, etc. You know the old saying to ASS/U/ME makes an ass out of you and me, and I guess there are so many moments in life when we assume things about what people mean, how something will go, whether we'll succeed or fail, etc. So in that way, thoughts most definitly have a strong causal effect.
I guess I am having difficulty with the thoughts causing feelings model because of what I said in previous post about instantaneous brain reactions. I think that especially with people like me who sometimes get flooded with strong feelings, thoughts never even have a chance to get in gear--it is a much more basic physiological reaction that triggers the feelings, and so strong (the flaming amygdala) that the thinking part of the brain cannot get into gear to think and interpret logically. Still, learning to use better thinking can help to manage the flaming amygdala problem.
I guess both can be true.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 15:28:07
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by IsoM on March 1, 2003, at 12:59:36
I've probably made him sound silly, but he IS fond of psychobabble and somewhat simplistic statements. I don't let him get away with it too often. I make sure he earns his money and don't let him get away with such laziness. I just wasn't sure this was one of those occasions. And he's not really silly. He's just used to saying those things that everyone seems to accept as true. In fact, he says that's my gift. To help people examine their accepted but not closely examined beliefs. (Isn't that a nice way of saying it?)
I did ask for clarifation of the paradox, in the somewhat petulant way I was feeling at the moment. But he's figured out that it's better to let these things seep in and think them through on my own, and then he'll comment on my thoughts and clarify that way. Because I'm stubborn as a mule. :) And because he knows I think about what he says, even if I object to it at the time.
I'm glad the sun is warming your spirit, Iso. I imagine the winter is tough for someone who loves nature as much as you do. I kind of like winter. The stark bareness of the trees, the more muted colors. Summer sometimes seems like too much. Going outside in summer is an assault on my senses. I envy you your area though. The flowers grow so well there.
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 15:38:42
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 14:47:26
The Flaming Amygdala Gang!!!!
Oh I love that, Noa (clapping my hands together in delight)!! As Gabbi told you, I use that expression all the time, it really meant something to me. And I always give you credit. (In fact, when you weren't posting, I thought of you and missed you and your wisdom whenever I said it.)
I think I'll print out your posts and bring them to my therapist. Because I think of the matter in the same way you do. And maybe his experience is different. When something that I find threatening happens (and what I find threatening depends a whole lot on my mental state at the time) the reaction is instantaneous.
The other day I asked my therapist if he was angry with me, and knowing that I had sensed the truth he answered affirmatively. I had a flaming amygdala attack at once. I felt sick and dizzy and had to put my head between my knees. And he was asking me what thoughts I had leading up to the dizziness. What did I think would happen if I was angry with him? Well, what thoughts? I didn't have time to have thoughts. If I had time, yes, I could have reminded myself that he has frequently been more angry with me than this and everything was ok. I could have reminded myself that just because he was angry didn't mean I was bad. It may or may not have affected my feelings (because it's easy to think the right things and less easy to have it affect you viscerally). But I didn't have time to do that! And once I was upset, I got into a state that was hard to get out of. I couldn't at that point just think logically and feel better. All the chemical emotional arousal processes were set in motion, and my ability to divert them was limited in the short term at least.
Sigh.
It would be so *easy* if thinking the right things could lead to feeling the right way.
Posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 22:49:22
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » noa, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 15:38:42
Thank you for crediting me for the FAG (Flaming Amygdala Gang). Btw, I should credit "Mapping the Mind" by Rita Carter, because that is where I got the info on how the amygdala is the first responder before the frontal lobe when danger is sensed. The image of the flaming amygdala came to me when I read that. Or the image of the amygdala as pulsing with radioactive-like glow (or neon gas), like some kind of alarm saying, Danger! Danger!
I'll be curious to hear how the session goes.
But btw, it is probably a good thing that you had a flaming amygdala attack right there in his office in response to something between you, and that he was offering questions about thoughts, because, like you said, the thoughts aren't available to you at that moment. I have had similar experiences in my therapist's office, and over time, I have begun to be able to process it. But one key thing is I think my therapist, despite the gentle prodding with cognitive questions, seems to agree with my conceptualization of my amygdala attacks, or at least that this is how I experience it, so he accepts that I may not be able to answer questions then, or describe what I'm feeling. He told me that maybe the goal is to accept that this happens to me this way, and not to put on a second layer of bad feelings on top of that by thinking I SHOULD be able to think thoughts then. Ironically, this patient approach has helped me get better at accessing language to describe the feelings. maybe not instantaneously, but a lot sooner than it used to be.
Posted by IsoM on March 2, 2003, at 1:41:52
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » IsoM, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 15:28:07
Winter is hard on me, Dinah, but it can still be incredibly beautiful. I love my bedroom window overlooking our back yard & the small greenbelt behind our place. In winter, the trees are bare & the beauty of their fractal design is accentuated by the dark trunks against a pale sky. The scene looks diff from morning light to late afternoon light. When the sun shines on them, some are silver coloured, others a golden brown. I could stare at them for hours.
The little winter birds that come on my deck for seeds I scatter entertain me too. The swooshing of the wind through tall Douglas firs is soothing & relaxing. There's a road of couple of miles away that winds through a thickly forested area. In winter, the trees drip with moisture & fog curls through the trees & mossy undergrowth. I can almost see a cloaked & hooded rider wandering through forest paths of a dark horse. It's the stuff of myth. No wonder many films are shot around the Vancouver area. It's been called Hollywood North.
Like you, I prefer muted scenes & colours. No neon bright sunsets for me. I like the softer purple, pinks, & violet ones with a bit of gold outlining the clouds. The perfect garden isn't a riot of colour but subtle shades of green, browns, & grey with flowers being secondary points of colours. No bright outrageous colours either, but blues, purples, whites & oinks with only occasional reds & lemon yellows. You'd like my garden - calming, not bright.
I felt giddy today. We got up to 12 C & bright & sunny. I've only worn a coat a couple of times this winter & never boots. Today, I didn't even bother with a sweater.
Posted by mair on March 2, 2003, at 13:17:34
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by noa on March 1, 2003, at 22:49:22
What's happening to you when you go through an amygdala attack. (I've never heard of this before). When I sense danger usually because the topic is unsettling, I instantly feel anxious and I shut down, meaning that I can't hold onto any thought long enough to verbalize it. After I've left my therapist's office I have difficulty remembering what we discussed. It's like I've totally compartmentalized a traumatic discussion and once it's over it's very difficult to recreate what I was feeling or thinking.
Is this at all what you're describing?
My therapist would prefer that I just tell her that I can't discuss whatever it is that seems so traumatizing rather than just shutting down. She thinks we can discuss the emotional reaction I'm having more safely, and really the few times I've tried this, it's worked to a degree. We awkwardly talk "around" things rather than about them and sometimes I'm able to calm myself enough to see that there really is a way to discuss, at least on some level, whatever issue I'm so anxious to avoid.
Mair
Posted by Ilene on March 2, 2003, at 23:06:53
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » noa, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2003, at 15:38:42
> The other day I asked my therapist if he was angry with me, and knowing that I had sensed the truth he answered affirmatively. I had a flaming amygdala attack at once. I felt sick and dizzy and had to put my head between my knees. And he was asking me what thoughts I had leading up to the dizziness. What did I think would happen if I was angry with him? Well, what thoughts? I didn't have time to have thoughts. If I had time, yes, I could have reminded myself that he has frequently been more angry with me than this and everything was ok. I could have reminded myself that just because he was angry didn't mean I was bad.
In your earlier post your therapist says, "You are choosing to be upset about this and you can make a different choice." But now he says he is angry at you. Is he unable to follow his own advice or is he *choosing* to be angry?--I.
Posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 16:06:01
In reply to My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by Dinah on February 28, 2003, at 22:35:20
It seems to me like therapy gets bogged down in contradictions like these, which have the tendency to drive me crazy. The following is only tangentially related, but it made me smile:
Reality is what we take to be true.
What we take to be true is what we believe.
What we believe is based on our perceptions.
What we perceive depends on what we look for.
What we look for depends on what we think.
What we think depends on what we perceive.
What we perceive determines what we believe.
What we take to be true is our reality.The Dancing Wu Li Masters (gary zukav)
It makes perfect sense to me, and at the same time, absolutely no sense, which seems to be true of a lot of "therapeutic constructs." I'd like to have the courage to press these things with my therapist, but I never get very far before I concede she is right, even though I probably still disagree. It sounds like you are able to call your therapist on a lot of things though, and i would encourage you to do so in this case too.
Posted by justyourlaugh on March 3, 2003, at 17:29:35
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 16:06:01
life,
i found i had to reread your post many times...
my reality lately has alot of blinders...
i dont even talk yet to pdoc..i answer questions,,half the time i cant,,,i dont know what the hell i am doing ...
he made a error with my medication and i cant get a hold of him for a week...my md helped me fix it over the phone but i feel like i cant trust the pdoc anymore...like he didnt care enough about me to write down a proper perscription that wouldnt give me a stroke...
my thoughts are going everywhere now,sorry,
peace
jyl
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:31:30
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by mair on March 2, 2003, at 13:17:34
It could be, Mair. I was just up all night again working, and it's hard for me to articulate what it is, although I knew instantly what noa was talking about. Perhaps Noa can better fit words to it?
I know I don't try to avoid even the most difficult topics now, and when an attack occurs we can talk about it with whatever words I can scrape together, because truly my verbal abilities often disappear in a flaming amygdala attack. But I feel such trust with my therapist. His office is truly a holding environment and there's nothing I can't talk about. I usually put plenty of disclaimers and explanations around things I think he might misinterpret though.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:36:26
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by Ilene on March 2, 2003, at 23:06:53
> In your earlier post your therapist says, "You are choosing to be upset about this and you can make a different choice." But now he says he is angry at you. Is he unable to follow his own advice or is he *choosing* to be angry?
>
> --I.I think he really would say that. That he was choosing to be angry. But I'm not sure if he would follow through on all the ramifications. He does totally take responsibility for his feelings though and says I don't make him feel anything. I have trouble understanding that too. If I do something and he gets angry with it, then I am obviously (to me) at least partly responsible for my anger. And when I'm angry with him he totally changes course and acknowledges that he has done something to "make" me angry.
I am no good at paradox.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:37:19
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:36:26
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:41:40
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 16:06:01
I'll have to ponder that after I've gotten sleep. I've been up for 34 or so hours now. :)
Why do you find it hard to call your therapist on things and hold her feet to the fire? Have you been seeing her long? Maybe she takes criticism poorly? Or is the therapist role intimidating?
I sometimes say really thoughtless things to my therapist, and I often question what he says. If I've been rude, he gently and humorously points it out. If I'm right, he admits it.
Posted by noa on March 3, 2003, at 18:59:53
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this., posted by mair on March 2, 2003, at 13:17:34
Mair, yes, more or less, that is what I mean by an "amygdala attack". I get flooded and anxious and can't articulate anything. It is like a panic attack. It feels to me like I can't find the thoughts or the words. We kind of talk around it too, and this has helped. I like that my therapist "respects" the attack for what it is and has worked with me to accept it in me. This has actually helped me, over time, to begin to be able to describe what it feels like, and this leads to being able to slowly be able to "catch" my thoughts.
In the outside world, when I have an "amygdala attack" (it isn't a real term) I started crying, and react out of proportion. I'll get upset at something at work, or in a business interaction. Kind of like panic. It is like the trigger takes me instantly to a place where I feel flooded with all the bad feelings I have about myself. I usually try to flee and hide, although sometimes I "fight"--not really fight but get a little hostile, and even as I hear the words coming out of my mouth I know it is a big mistake. Which is why, of course, I prefer Flight to fight! But even the crying and blubbering hostility makes me feel so out of control and ashamed, that the feelings only multiply!!
Posted by noa on March 3, 2003, at 19:03:53
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » mair, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:31:30
Dinah, sounds like things are going well in therapy--you feel a lot safer than you used to. And you are working through the flaming amygdala attacks. Take care.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 19:32:27
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » mair, posted by noa on March 3, 2003, at 18:59:53
Posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 23:20:50
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » likelife, posted by justyourlaugh on March 3, 2003, at 17:29:35
jyl,
It sounds like you've been struggling quite a bit lately. I understand the frustration over pdocs' incompetence. Mine once put me on a combo that caused me to have a seizure. I was furious, but ended up right back in his office because of lack of options, and lack of initiative.
I'm glad you were able to take steps to take care of yourself.
No worries about thoughts going everywhere either, nothing new for me :)
Hang in there
Posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 23:25:22
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » likelife, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2003, at 18:41:40
> Why do you find it hard to call your therapist on things and hold her feet to the fire? Have you been seeing her long? Maybe she takes criticism poorly? Or is the therapist role intimidating?
Mostly I'm just a big wimp, fear confrontation, and desperately fear losing her (though I've been seeing her for over 2 years now). Nothing I can't get over though, right? :o)
> I sometimes say really thoughtless things to my therapist, and I often question what he says. If I've been rude, he gently and humorously points it out. If I'm right, he admits it.I think I need to try this, perhaps just for the shock value, and also to see what it feels like. I admire your ability to say what you think, when you actually think it.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2003, at 8:29:09
In reply to Re: My literal mind can't grasp this. » Dinah, posted by likelife on March 3, 2003, at 23:25:22
Well, it took me several years to feel safe doing it. I think I might have done it even before then though, to test him and see if he'd boot me out. And perhapos half hoping he would.
I'm definitely more honest about what I tell him now, than before I felt safe. The things I complain about or tell him about are more real and less smoke screen. A lot of my first five years had to do with fighting my fears of dependency and feeling mistrustful. And my confrontations of him then were largely around that issue - and often weren't about what was really bothering me (or maybe they were :D). But now that issue is settled, more or less, I can be more honest about the other things that bother me.
So perhaps you just need a few more years. :)
This is the end of the thread.
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