![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by NutMeig on September 1, 2003, at 22:02:52
Do you think that God can make it so I'm not bipolar any more? He can bring the dead back to life, heal leapers, cure a woman's blood condition and so many other countless things, but can He make this simple chemical imbalance go away?! I want it to happen SO badly, but I dont think I have the faith.
Posted by rayww on September 2, 2003, at 0:16:00
In reply to miracle healing , posted by NutMeig on September 1, 2003, at 22:02:52
> Do you think that God can make it so I'm not bipolar any more? He can bring the dead back to life, heal leapers, cure a woman's blood condition and so many other countless things, but can He make this simple chemical imbalance go away?! I want it to happen SO badly, but I dont think I have the faith.
Usually when God performs a miracle like that it is through another person. My miracle was discovering supplements that have helped me a great deal. It was finding just the right trusted friends at just the right moments. Also, in my deep need, opening my scriptures and finding at first glance the message from God I needed to hear. The nutritional supplements I am taking are under attack by our beloved Health Canada. When I heard that another company is also under attack for making a specific claim to health, I decided to try taking them too. I now have quite a lot of control over my mood swings, plus my cholesterol is going down and my legs feel better, I'm more able to exercise and run, and I generally feel well most of the time. To me, that is a wonderful miracle, plus, to be able to write about faith here, also is a blessing, and perhaps at times, a miracle. I take Strauss heart drops, and EMPowerPlus, and a little calcium and salmon oil.
http://www.straussheartdrops.com/
http://truehope.com/home.aspThe ordinary people who discovered these things thought it was a miracle discovery.
I empathize with your concerns. Bipolar is such a difficult battle on all fronts. I hope you have trusted support. Get rest, drink water, two hours of fresh air each day won't hurt, and love yourself. We love you. Thank's for visiting PBF and feel free to discuss this more. It's a really good question.
Posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 1:23:46
In reply to miracle healing , posted by NutMeig on September 1, 2003, at 22:02:52
> Do you think that God can make it so I'm not bipolar any more? He can bring the dead back to life, heal leapers, cure a woman's blood condition and so many other countless things, but can He make this simple chemical imbalance go away?! I want it to happen SO badly, but I dont think I have the faith.
I would like to to add my two cents of expereince.
Yes. God can.
For me the question I had to come to grips with was why God hasnt.
There are many different views on this subject, even Christian ones.
The modern church view is often expressed as "if you have enough faith"
That view often worsened my depression.
So I searched the theology of my faith deeply to find answers that made sense to me.This is the conclusion I am at peace with.
Because I know He can, I strive to have childlike trust that He has a good and loving reason when He doesnt, believing that there is a greater purpose than I can comprehend.
I am a more compassionate person after years of suffering. My heart longs to comfort those with the comfort (not nec. healing) Ive been given.
My family has learned a great deal of patience in their support of my illness.
I feel that if I had perfect health, mental or physical, I would not see my need for Him.
He has given us the medical realm for consolation, and to ease our suffering.
He desires me to desire the other world, the suffering I endure in this world, weans me from my love of it.
It frees me a little more each day from the desire to grasp pleasure and avoid pain. And like Paul, to struggle to be content in what ever circumstance I am in.
My ever present sorrows compel me to divorce my happiness from my circumstances,( including my health)
I AM NOT saying He makes me ill to accompolish this end. But it seems to me, He allows it. Because the demoniac who cut and abused himself, with one touch, was cured.
The fleeting joys,and fortastes of the divine contrasted with my sorrows, most surely wet my appetite for eternity. This is good thing, because believing that this world is transitory, eternity is the one that counts.
I hope I have said something that helps. Forgive me if my words are hard, I am a great sinner.
peace
Ima
Posted by Dena on September 2, 2003, at 11:56:40
In reply to Re: miracle healing » NutMeig, posted by Ima on September 2, 2003, at 1:23:46
First, Dear NutMeig -
Welcome to Psycho Babble Faith!
How many times have I asked myself, others & God Himself the very question you've asked!
Healing is such a great mystery. Yes, it seems that Jesus did heal everyone who asked Him to (& some who didn't ask). But, everyone who asked, was healed; & yes, He often told them it was attributable to their faith.
But faith is a gift - it's not something we can drum up with will power or concentration. God gives us the very faith we need to believe in Him, & as we exercise that faith, it grows.
I've known people who were miraculously healed. I've known those who were healed through the use of medicines (both natural & chemical). I've known others, even those with "great faith" who were left in their illness - some of whom even died.
I suffered with severe bulimia for 21 years - everyone else had given up on my ever getting better. But God healed me. I searched for that healing for most of those two decades, & tried many things to bring about healing. It seems, that when I was ready, when I was prepared to face the "root" of it, & for reasons & timing which only God Himself knows, I was completely & miraculously healed (that was three years ago). I still cope with depression - that hasn't been healed - & there are other areas in my life which still need healing (I don't believe we're ever completely healed this side of heaven).
I love everything that you, Ima wrote, & I'm in agreement with you on all of it.
The bottom line is to continue to trust God with all parts of our lives, trusting that He knows what is absolutely the best for us each step of the way. And, if you know Jesus as Savior, you have the promise of a perfect body one day! (maybe because it falls apart we will appreciate it more!)
Again, welcome to both of you - I hope to hear more from you!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by NutMeig on September 2, 2003, at 17:43:16
In reply to Re: miracle healing TO NutMeig Ima, posted by Dena on September 2, 2003, at 11:56:40
Thank you, Ima, Rayww, and Dena. All of you have help me tons! I realize now that, since life is a test, that God knows what we can handle and will help us through it. I feel much better now, and if feels so nice to be able to come here and know that there are people who understand.
~NutMeig
Posted by habbyshabit on September 2, 2003, at 18:46:19
In reply to Re: miracle healing , posted by rayww on September 2, 2003, at 0:16:00
Ray, I came across "TrueHope" about 2 years or so ago. At the time, they were calling their supplement something else and It seems of the ingredients have changed since then, though I couldn't be sure. I almost decided to try it at the time, but cost and the number of pills per day were prohibitive. I'm wondering how many pills a day you take. It was 30 at the time.
Have you had good success with TrueHope and your bipolar? I guess you have if you are passing it on as a gift from God :)Have your cycles stopped or changed? Why do you feel the need for two different supplements? Are you peri-menopausal? Sorry for the twenty questions, but I was soooo into TrueHope at the time, I just would like to know your experience.
As for your query, NutMieg, I'm not much of a god type, but even I have heard that God helps he who helps himself. When it comes to manic depression, we have to put our heart and soul into taking care of ourselves and finding what works best for us. And like Ray says, often we find answers through others. Sometimes the answers come in the most miraculous ways. And sometimes, especially the down times, it seems like there are no answers. All I know is that Bipolar is cyclic and no matter how down we get, it WILL pass.
Best to you both,
Hab
Posted by rayww on September 2, 2003, at 21:52:59
In reply to Re: miracle healing » rayww, posted by habbyshabit on September 2, 2003, at 18:46:19
>> Ray, I came across "TrueHope" about 2 years or so ago. At the time, they were calling their supplement something else and It seems of the ingredients have changed since then, though I couldn't be sure.
The balance is the same, but it is now finer ground (more concentrated) so you take fewer pills.
>I almost decided to try it at the time, but cost and the number of pills per day were prohibitive. I'm wondering how many pills a day you take. It was 30 at the time.
I went down to 4, 3xday after they changed it. I had a bad time from Jan to March, and felt like I was overloaded, so I quit completely, and every time I felt whatever extreme coming back, I would take a bunch at once. I haven't had to do that for a couple of months. Right now, 2 EMPower a day, 1 calcium, 1 salmon oil, 15 drops Strauss garlic drops (no mosquitoes come near me) I try to listen to my "moods". I think they won't lead me astray, and right now I'm in the mood to do it that way. (but don't follow me)
It's not just bipolar disorder, it's life style, it's support, it's nutrition, rest, exercise, understanding. It's family. It's triggers and crashes. If I'm under too much pressure for too long a time, I know I will crash. I rest even when I don't think I need it. Bipolar mania does that to you. Make hay while the sun shines? Good idea, but the mania sun shines around the clock for several days in a row.
>
> Have you had good success with TrueHope and your bipolar?It's hard to define normal as success. I sort of slipped into it, and it was my family that noticed. "Mom's doing better" they would say. ANd I'd have to stop and remember that I hadn't been behaving as strange perhaps. Strange to them, normal to me. In Bipolar, it all feels normal at the time, and that's why it is so hard to tell when you gently slip into the reality normal. Oh, i'm not explaining this well at all.
> guess you have if you are passing it on as a gift from God :)
Faith borard, remember?
>>Have your cycles stopped or changed?
I still have my cycles but they aren't as extreme. I love the outer limit arena of thought and creativity, and I can still get there at times if I manipulate myself into that territory.
>>Why do you feel the need for two different supplements?
Two different problems. Heart disease potential in my family, and my cholesterol is too high. Mood.
>>Are you peri-menopausal?What? Who? Where? I honestly don't even know what that is. I had a complete Hysterectomy a few years ago and went right onto HRT. Dr. botched me up bad and I had a second surgery a month later. Those two surgeries might have been what brought on the bipolar disorder. I wouldn't recommend having a hysterectomy just to bypass menopause. It dulls your ability to work through things. (my experience only)
>>Sorry for the twenty questions, but I was soooo into TrueHope at the time, I just would like to know your experience.
I feel well enough, not perfect, I'd like to have more something, but I'm satisfied, and I was never before when I was on epival and topomax. I can like myself, and it's not just a false sense of security.
Thanks for your interest.
I wish the supplements were not so costly. It's clearly a pity that health care cannot recognize the pharmaceutical benefit of nutritional supplements such as these. But I suppose we all know the story there. The organizations that work the hardest for our benefit sometimes turn out to be our worst betrayers, stealing all our money. Oh my, where did that come from? Disclaimer: my experience and my opinions only.
(Bob, don't move this to PB, they'll crucify it.)
Posted by habbyshabit on September 2, 2003, at 22:57:50
In reply to Re: miracle healing » habbyshabit, posted by rayww on September 2, 2003, at 21:52:59
Hi Ray
> It's not just bipolar disorder, it's life style, it's support, it's nutrition, rest, exercise, understanding. It's family. It's triggers and crashes. If I'm under too much pressure for too long a time, I know I will crash. I rest even when I don't think I need it. Bipolar mania does that to you. Make hay while the sun shines? Good idea, but the mania sun shines around the clock for several days in a row.
~Having lived with Manic Depression a good long time now, I understand all of the above.
> It's hard to define normal as success. I sort of slipped into it, and it was my family that noticed. "Mom's doing better" they would say. ANd I'd have to stop and remember that I hadn't been behaving as strange perhaps. Strange to them, normal to me. In Bipolar, it all feels normal at the time, and that's why it is so hard to tell when you gently slip into the reality normal. Oh, i'm not explaining this well at all.~Well, to someone who has been all over that map, you are doing a very good job of explaining it!
>>guess you have if you are passing it on as a gift from God :)
>Faith borard, remember?~ How could I ever forget!
> >>Why do you feel the need for two different supplements?
>
> Two different problems. Heart disease potential in my family, and my cholesterol is too high. Mood.~Thanks for sharing that, it seemed like a little overkill, just for bipolar.
>>Are you peri-menopausal?
>
> What? Who? Where? I honestly don't even know what that is. I had a complete Hysterectomy a few years ago and went right onto HRT. Dr. botched me up bad and I had a second surgery a month later. Those two surgeries might have been what brought on the bipolar disorder. I wouldn't recommend having a hysterectomy just to bypass menopause. It dulls your ability to work through things. (my experience only)~Peri-menopause is new age speak for entering the "change of life" or being pre-menopausal when hormones start doing a new dance and a lot of other bodily changes start to take place, sometimes ten years before the actual pause. For those of us who still have uterus and overy. I ask because my bipolar cycles changed dramatically over the last two years at the same time those type of symtoms began - I started HRT this year as an experiment to see if my cycles would return to their normal (for me) length.
> Thanks for your interest.
~your welcome~Spiritually speaking-I have to wonder if I found myself in a hypo or florid manic episode, would I suddenly be all spiritual and "in touch" with god again. Right now, in a normal mode, it seems unlikely, since the change I've just gone through seems so real and solid. A lot of my spirituality seemed to be "given" to me in pre-psychotic states. I hope to not have a mania to find out! I really do not enjoy mania or the aftermath, the crash. I can't help but wonder how many years off my life each manic episode takes.
Glad to see that NutMeig is feeling better and supported. I feel that was much of the time myself.
Hab
Posted by rayww on September 3, 2003, at 10:54:58
In reply to Re: miracle healing » rayww, posted by habbyshabit on September 2, 2003, at 22:57:50
Enjoyed your response Habby>
> ~Spiritually speaking-I have to wonder if I found myself in a hypo or florid manic episode, would I suddenly be all spiritual and "in touch" with god again. Right now, in a normal mode, it seems unlikely, since the change I've just gone through seems so real and solid. A lot of my spirituality seemed to be "given" to me in pre-psychotic states. I hope to not have a mania to find out! I really do not enjoy mania or the aftermath, the crash. I can't help but wonder how many years off my life each manic episode takes.ANd I wonder too. In reality, "No man can serve two masters•: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
I have always been the way I am spiritually, and have enjoyed Sunday discussions of all topics. In my manic spirituality I would feel more inclined to dominate the discussions, and inspired to say certain things, but as soon as I went home I would wonder where that "off the wall" comment came from and then be really embarrassed for saying it. My adult kids noticed and began dreading my participation. What can I say? I had to listen to them and seek help. Now I am very quiet, and only comment when I have a witness that what I am going to say is something that needs to be heard or discussed. It's working.
Spirituality that's in tune with the right source will settle relatively well. Spirituality that's "off-the-wall" will bounce out and be lost. You just have to trust your deepest feelings.
Eventually (as the scripture says) you will lean more to the one side than the other. It is your decision. Which do you want to hang onto? If Arlon is important to you, cling to that. Once you get a taste of true light, you will not be able to abide darkness. This is your life, and you are the only one who can figure it out. I feel you are on the right track.
Bipolar swings do get in the way, but I believe God lends an extra helping hand during those times if we look to the source with faith, believing. Pay attention to your moods and swings, learn to recognize when you are off the wall. Identify what it is you define as normal for you. For me, normal is not that sick and driven feeling, when I feel so compelled to do things that I know aren't right. It's tough.
We aren't accountable for things we do in that state,(to a point) but we are accountable for the consequenses and for the lingering habits formed and end result of ruined relationships. Maybe that's why we are given "big" spirituality in those times of severity. It helps get us through.
Posted by Ima on September 4, 2003, at 8:23:29
In reply to Re: miracle healing » habbyshabit, posted by rayww on September 3, 2003, at 10:54:58
Ive noticed a number of people (here and other places on site) who have metioned that they feel God oriented when they are manic.
I liked and related to what you said, ray ,about your manic state tending to make you dominate disscusions. I have this tendecy to.
I have found, strangely, that my depressions seem to drive me to a real connection. As I wander through the pain and listlessness, sometimes, (not as much as I'd like) the pain drives me to cry out for wisdom. I believe my attention is being required to something I NEED to look at and would rather not.
In my desperation, I look, seek, knock, talk and read till the revelation is given,
healing comes.
Not complete, but as much as I am ready to handle.
Peeling away the layers of sickness in a soul is not a pretty site.
I wouldnt even consider doing it if the pain did not drive me.
Id rather forget it.
Thankfully God is faithful in His promise to finish the work He has begun.
When Im manic I do more boring things like clean the house :)
I dont love my dpression (I think )but in my experience it is occasionally more spiritaully productive than mania
peace to all
Ima
Posted by Dena on September 4, 2003, at 10:06:57
In reply to Re: miracle healing » rayww, posted by Ima on September 4, 2003, at 8:23:29
Dear Ima -
Hmmm... I'm beginning to wonder whether or not I may be somewhat bipolar, after reading what you & Raywww have stated.
I do have up and down cycles - can this just be a part of being human? I'm very affected by the weather, the state of my surroundings (cluttered environment = cluttered thinking), & my relationships. Again, is this bipolar or human?
I also have a tendency to "add my 2 cents", rather emphatically, (a nice way of saying I can easily take over conversations!) - but I've always blamed that on my sinful tendency to draw attention to myself.
During my down days, which can come out of nowhere, I tend to withdraw, wallow in self-pity, & indulge myself in lethargy. I can't say that I feel close to God during these times. I think part of me tends to blame Him for my emotional doldrums. I believe I have a childish notion that I should always be happy, fulfilled, & in pleasant situations.
I've been reading something interesting lately in my morning devotions... may I share?
"...the essence of sin is a failure to worship the Creator... the beginning of man's rebellion against God was, and is, the lack of a thankful heart... the rebellion is the deliberate refusal to be the creature before the Creator, to the extent of being thankful...idolatry is not only the worship of false gods, it is also the worship of the true God in a false way...idolatry is the entertaining of ideas about God that are unworthy of Him... we cannot truly worship God if we carry in our hearts a wrong or unworthy concept of Him...we cannot worship God in the way He deserves to be worshipped until we understand something of who He is... we cannot worship someone we don't trust."
Of course, the above assumes that there is a Creator God, & that He is defined by Himself, rather than by his creation. These are my own personal beliefs.
What I got out of this, is that my own perceptions of God are more than likely tainted by my own ideas. My religion teaches me about God (using the Bible & Church teachings), & I completely believe these teachings on a concrete, intellectual level. However, I'm aware of more subtle, deeper "beliefs" which I've accumulated over the years from less reliable sources (i.e., my relationship with my own earthly father - who, for better or for worse, represented God the Father to me as a young child; my assumptions about God based on my own experiences - like blaming Him when things don't go "well"; ideas about God that I've received from others, etc.). These beliefs, which seem to be mostly subconscious, are characteristics I've ascribed to God which are unworthy of Him. While I reject them in my mature, conscious mind, my subconscious (child-like) mind seems to be more powerful at times, causing me to distance myself from the very God I desire to become more intimate with!
For instance, my father was a hugely, powerfully strong presence in my early years. He was tall, big, stern, dominating, demanding man. He expected & demanded near-perfection from his children (I was the eldest). He taught me to fear authority. He taught me that he ("God") was hard to please, & always ready to punish my wrongdoings. I believe I transferred these fears onto God at an early age. I gave God the unwarranted traits that my father had demonstrated.
I remember once, at age 5 or so, my father asked me to jump into the pool, & he said he would catch me. Actually, he didn't ask, he told me to do so. I had no choice but to jump, although I had a terrible fear of deep water. I jumped, but my father, in an attempt to help me overcome my fear, dropped his arms & let me flounder in panic for a moment. Then, he asked me to swim toward him, promising me that he wouldn't move. I began to swim, but I could see under the water that he backed up, step by step, so that I never quite reached him. I believe that severe damage was done toward my trust, not only for my father, but toward my heavenly Father whom he represented to me.
To this day, I struggle with completely trusting God, & believing that He will be absolutely reliable, rather than like my own father, who did mean things to me "for my own good."
God has been taking me on a journey of trust. I've experienced many things which I wouldn't have volunteered for (like my miscarriage), that have put me in a position where I'm compelled to trust God to carry me through. I'm discovering that He IS trustworthy, & I have to choose to not believe the old, deceptive beliefs to the contrary.
It's rather like overcoming a bad habit, replacing it with a good one. It can feel awkward & unfamiliar at first, but with practice, it's becoming more and more natural to trust Him. I've always known He was trustworthy, but now I'm starting to experience it more deeply & personally.
Well, I certainly went down a rabbit trail, but perhaps this will be helpful to someone else - if not, it helped me to articulate it.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by rayww on September 5, 2003, at 19:10:08
In reply to Re: miracle healing » Ima, posted by Dena on September 4, 2003, at 10:06:57
Dena, once again all I can say/think is "wow". Your thoughts run deep, but they always seem to connect. If first impressions/reactions count, after reading this my first feeling was "this is a strong argument for traditional marriage", but I doubt you'll catch my train of thought without writing more, and I have no time today to write. Catch you later.
Posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 19:30:33
In reply to Re: miracle healing » Dena, posted by rayww on September 5, 2003, at 19:10:08
> Dena, once again all I can say/think is "wow". Your thoughts run deep, but they always seem to connect. If first impressions/reactions count, after reading this my first feeling was "this is a strong argument for traditional marriage", but I doubt you'll catch my train of thought without writing more, and I have no time today to write. Catch you later.
Dear Raywww,Let me see if I can catch your runaway train of thought...
If it's true that our earthly father represents to us (in our childhood) our heavenly Father, then what a tragedy befalls the children who have no father, whether by death, divorce, abandonment or choice (such as when the mother elects to have a baby without a father).
I make no judgements here. I understand that divorce happens. I applaud the mothers who adopt children who would otherwise grow up in foster homes or institutions. (I suppose I do hold judgement against any parent, father or mother, who would abandon their own child.) Death, of course, requires no explanation.
But, I do believe that God established the family as the first & primary istitution. I do believe that a child grows up best with both a father & a mother who love & respect each other first, and who unconditionally love that child. That is the ideal. I believe that children do suffer if they don't get the whole picture. Of course, they survive regardless of what hand they're dealt. But they thrive when the family operates as God designed it to. I also believe that God will have mercy on the fatherless, the widows & the orphans, because He promised to.
I wonder if it's perhaps more difficult for fatherless children to have a relationship with God - perhaps they would tend to transfer their own father's shortcomings onto God.
Did I at least grab ahold of your train's caboose, Ray?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by rayww on September 8, 2003, at 18:27:50
In reply to Re: miracle healing » rayww, posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 19:30:33
> Let me see if I can catch your runaway train of thought...
>
> If it's true that our earthly father represents to us (in our childhood) our heavenly Father, then what a tragedy befalls the children who have no father, whether by death, divorce, abandonment or choice (such as when the mother elects to have a baby without a father).True, but that's where surrogate fathers come in. We should always be on the watch for a child in need, for a moment to share, or an opportunity to offer appropriate support. I am always taken by surprise as I try to visualize what my own deceased father would want for me. Father, God, husband are one in caring for my best good. I can talk to my dad, but it just ends up a prayer, as though they are in the same place, which I guess they are. As soon as I think "Father in Heaven" I realize I have two.
>
> I make no judgements here. I understand that divorce happens. I applaud the mothers who adopt children who would otherwise grow up in foster homes or institutions. (I suppose I do hold judgement against any parent, father or mother, who would abandon their own child.) Death, of course, requires no explanation.yes, and the child's safety should certainly be a priority.
>
> But, I do believe that God established the family as the first & primary istitution. I do believe that a child grows up best with both a father & a mother who love & respect each other first, and who unconditionally love that child. That is the ideal. I believe that children do suffer if they don't get the whole picture. Of course, they survive regardless of what hand they're dealt. But they thrive when the family operates as God designed it to. I also believe that God will have mercy on the fatherless, the widows & the orphans, because He promised to.Exactly. God tries so hard to show us what it is like in heaven. The closest thing to his love is Father's love. Men and women have the opportunity to be parents and have children after the pattern established in heaven, where we were all spirit sons and daughters of God and mother in heaven. Cummon, why would the woman/mother be left out of the family in heaven? Women are equal, but reverenced by God, and that is why he doesn't want it known among men, to protect her name and be the tough guy.
>
> I wonder if it's perhaps more difficult for fatherless children to have a relationship with God - perhaps they would tend to transfer their own father's shortcomings onto God.
>
It is difficult for motherless or fatherless children to become fathers or mothers because they haven't been shown the appropriate pattern. Learned behaviors coupled with instinct will suffice. God is there for everyone, and can be found through the sincere search in any situation.> Did I at least grab ahold of your train's caboose, Ray?
>
Dena, sometimes you crack me up.My thoughts were very simplistic, What if Earth life is patterned after the order of heaven, with family and religion at its center. The family organization is meant to continue beyond the grave, and could possibly be the government organization of the eternities, the head being God the Father, the heart, God the mother (they're one of course), and all of us down the row from there. Just a pleasant thought. Maybe "family search" has a valid reason after all. We are still important even after we die. here's a link to find your family:
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp
>
>
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.