![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:23:33
[Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 14, 2003, at 9:32:11
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/200218.html]
> > TRUST ME, like many of you, if it wasn't for JESUS CHRIST, I (PERSONALLY!!!) would have ALREADY COMMITTED SUICIDE by now!!! (I'm NOT going to go into the "gory details" about my own personal struggles but, rest assured, you're NOT THE ONLY ONE with a "heavy burden"!!!)
> ----------------------
>
> Your argument that faith can help people overcome problems in their lives is perfectly valid. It's been the basis for Alcoholics Anonymous, among other things. Your presentation of this argument isn't very effective, however. In being Christian, one should seek to emulate Christ, who wasn't known for angry, judgemental outbursts (well, ok, there were the money changers). He was primarily a figure of humility, compassion, love, and forgiveness. He didn't shout at the wayward, he embraced them. He didn't throw stones at the sinner, he protected them.
> Your argument also assumes that those of us taking drugs for our problems aren't really in need of help. How bad off should one be before seeking medical help? If I had diabetes, should I not take insulin? If I had Parkinson's, should I not take L-dopa? You implicitly draw a distinction between disorders of the mind and body, without consideration of the fact that the mind is part of the body. Disorders of the mind are no less debilitating than disorders of the rest of the body.
> As a final consideration, what constitutes a drug? A drug is any substance that affects the functioning of the body. Jesus drank wine. You probably drink coffee. Plenty of people take aspirin. There is no inherent moral seperation of molecular structures.
> The force and malice of your tone would suggest that you're not a person at peace, but rather an angry person, and this is hindering your cause.
>
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:45:55
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus « Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:23:33
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:01:18]
> Eddie,
> You wrote,[...your presentation of this argument isn't very effective...].
> As to whether his presentation is effective or not, would not some time have to pass in order to assess the presentation's effectivness? There may ,possibly, be readers here that do not contribute in posting that could have been influenced by titleiestguy's presentation to make an informed decision on whether to persue the road of psychopharmacology or seek a spiritual road. Dr. Bob has written here that people can express their spiritual experiances here, [...for if it worked for him, it has the potential to work for others...].
> Perhaps what he wrote was like a seed planted in someone's heart that will later grow and produce wonderfull fruit in that person. But a seed has to fall on good ground and be watered and nourished in order to grow. It is my deep conviction that it does not matter how the seed was sown, be it by being blown by the wind, planted carefully, deposited by a bird,or dumped by a garbage truck; for the type of ground the seed fell on will determine if it will grow.
> Lou
>----
[Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 14, 2003, at 11:15:34]
> > Perhaps what he wrote was like a seed planted in someone's heart that will later grow and produce wonderfull fruit in that person.
> -----------------
>
> Well, I can't argue that. It's entirely possible that his words will affect someone as you've indicated. I merely posit that his message would have been *more* effective if it didn't have such an alienating, abrasive tone. My claim is based on the presumption that people don't recieve harsh criticism well.----
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:28:54
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030214/msgs/200366.html]
> Bittersweet,
> You wrote,[...there is no concrete evidence of a God in heaven...]
> In titleistguy's posts, he is writing that [he] knows that there is a God in heaven for he wrote of being delivered from death by his own hand and without God he would have committed suicide. Now he has evidence that there is a God in heaven,[to him].It is spiritual evidence, not physical. He has shared his beliefe that there is a God and [...it worked for him...]. His message here is what he experianced and it is a [testimonial] to the existance of God, not a [concrete proof]. For one to believe in a God in heaven, one would have to have some evidence. Some people just accept the written documents of their religion, like the bible or the Koran or such, as the evidence of a creator. Some people have to see someone raised from the dead to believe that there is a God in heaven. And there are those in between. Some people do take other people's word as to the existance of a creator. Some become belivers while in adverse situations, like on the battlefield, or on their deathbed or durring a personal crisis of some sort. Some become belivers while they are enjoying prosparity and good health. They reason that they are being blessed by God to have such wonderfull circumstances in their life and give the credit to God. Some become belivers while imprisoned. But the overiding point that I am trying to make here is that the evidence is [spiritual],not [...concrete...].
> Lou----
[Posted by fachad on February 14, 2003, at 11:34:31
In reply to http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030208/msgs/140834.html]
> WWJD? Probably Try Casting out Demons, but...
>
> ...I don't think there have been any randomized controlled trials showing the efficacy of Casting out of Demons for the treatment of psychiatric disorders.
>
> Besides, even if there were, I'm sure my insurance would not cover it.
>
> Plus, in today's world, the ASPCA would never stand for it because of the danger to nearby pigs or other animals.
>
> For an anecdotal account of an open trial of this procedure to treat a patient with refractory schizophrenia, take out your Bible and read Mark Chapter 5, verses 1 thru 13.
>
> *ASPCA Comment: We are truly appalled to report that about two thousand pigs WERE ACTUALLY HARMED in the production of this Bible story.
>----
[Posted by linkadge on February 14, 2003, at 11:44:23
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus and I don't want to suffer » Eddie Sylvano, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:01:18]
>
> We are not Jesus and will never be.
>
> 1. If you are to quit Psychotropic
> meds then you should quit everything
> else. That means never take another
> asprin or tylenol again. These aleviate
> pain. If you ever get diabeties, don't
> take insulin. The insulin may quell
> the mental symptoms of diabeties. This
> is not relying on God
>
> 2. When you're old and dying and in extreme
> pain, never agree to take any morphene,
> nor i.v. nor any other thing. This is not
> relying on God
>
> 3. You must not eat any processed foods. These
> contain chemicals and vitamins that are in
> unnatural quantities. Niacin for instance
> in unnatural levels works on the Benzo sites
> in the brain, this might give you a slight
> calming effect. We must avoid this. This is
> not relying on God
>
> 4. You must not consume any caffiene.
> This enhances dopamine release and
> we must not tamper with our mood. That
> is for God to do. No Caffiene. No
> chocolate for the rest of your life.
> These might actually improve your
> motivation. This is not relying on God
>
>
> 5. We must not breath in any toxic fumes.
> Vanadium in Gasoline can provoke mania
> in certain indeviduals. This manic high
> might be enjoyable. So no breathing
> in of any quantity of exhaust. This is
> not relying on God
>
> 6. You must never take any supplement weather
> natural or not. For instance fish oil caps
> contain the amount of fish oil of about
> 30 cans of tuna. If god wanted us to have
> this much omega 3, he would have put it
> in a smaller quantity of fish. Doubting Gods
> planning is going against him.
>
> 7. Never take St. John's Wort. Even though
> this is one of Gods gifts to man. We must
> never consume it. IT appears to aleviate
> depression like SSRI's by raising serotonin.
> It also apears no not be in the least bit
> addicting. If we were to consume one of
> these plants that god has given us - it
> might improve our mood. This is not showing
> our trust in god.
>
>
> Here is your problem. You are still under the
> impression that God wants us to suffer. Why would
> god create us to suffer? The only reason God
> died on the Cross is that we might be forgiven.
> Jesus did it, so that we would not have to.
> He had to do it without relief, that was gods plan for Jesus not us.
>
>
> I've been where you've been. Belieive me when
> I tell you that Jesus and SSRI's **CAN COEXIST**
>
>
> You are also under the impression that a psychotropic drug somehow takes away someones
> need for god. We all need god to the same
> extent. The only difference between us here
> is that some are suffering and other are not.
>
>
> GOD HELPS THOSE WHO HELP THEMSELVES.
>
>
> Linkadge
>
>----
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:46:06
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus and I don't want to suffer » lou pilder, posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 14, 2003, at 11:15:34]
> ES,
> You wrote,[...perhaps his message would have been more effective if it did not have such an abrasive tone...].
> Perhaps, but the, perhaps [not]. I personally saw the posts by titiestguy as comming from someone that saw that there was a bridge that was colllaped around a great bend in the road and was comming back up the road to wave his arms to let others know of the impending disaster that he percieved to be ahead. I am one that appreciated his [tone], whether it be abrasive or not. I percieved his [tone] as somone that did not have time to [stand on ceremony]. I percieved his posts as comming from someone that was urgent and deperate to write what he wrote, without regards to ceremony, for it appeared to me that he thought that [ time was of the essence].
> Lou----
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:54:59
In reply to THE DEFINITIVE ANSWER, posted by linkadge on February 14, 2003, at 11:44:23]
> Linkadge,
> You wrote,[...we are not jesus and will never be...].
> Could you clarify what you used to base that conclusion on? If you could, then I could respond to your post accordingly.
> Lou----
[Posted by Bittersweet on February 14, 2003, at 12:06:07
In reply to Re: My FINAL post. » Bittersweet, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:28:54]
> > Bittersweet,
> > You wrote,[...there is no concrete evidence of a God in heaven...]
> > In titleistguy's posts, he is writing that [he] knows that there is a God in heaven for he wrote of being delivered from death by his own hand and without God he would have committed suicide. Now he has evidence that there is a God in heaven,[to him].It is spiritual evidence, not physical. He has shared his beliefe that there is a God and [...it worked for him...]. His message here is what he experianced and it is a [testimonial] to the existance of God, not a [concrete proof]. For one to believe in a God in heaven, one would have to have some evidence. Some people just accept the written documents of their religion, like the bible or the Koran or such, as the evidence of a creator. Some people have to see someone raised from the dead to believe that there is a God in heaven. And there are those in between. Some people do take other people's word as to the existance of a creator. Some become belivers while in adverse situations, like on the battlefield, or on their deathbed or durring a personal crisis of some sort. Some become belivers while they are enjoying prosparity and good health. They reason that they are being blessed by God to have such wonderfull circumstances in their life and give the credit to God. Some become belivers while imprisoned. But the overiding point that I am trying to make here is that the evidence is [spiritual],not [...concrete...].
> > Lou
>
> Lou, you sound like a reasonable guy, if only you would remove the stick...----
[Posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 14, 2003, at 12:06:41
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus and I don't want to suffer » Eddie Sylvano, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 11:46:06]
> I percieved his posts as comming from someone that was urgent and deperate to write what he wrote, without regards to ceremony, for it appeared to me that he thought that [ time was of the essence].
> ----------------
>
> I think that perhaps the divide between our viewpoints here is one of subjectivity. If the poster had been imploring us all to lose weight, with the same intensity and urgency displayed here, would you consider such an approach better than a more reserved, inclusive one? Because of your particular viewpoint, I would argue that you give spiritual messages special creedence, treating them as exceptional cases, and judged by a different standard than other areas of discussion. A neutral audience judges the tone and intention of the speaker before buying the arguement. While it may be true that I'm morbidly obese, and losing weight is in my best interest, I wouldn't be inclined to listen to someone who suddenly shouted at me, in an incredulous and condescending tone, that I should do so, despite the urgency of my situation. Such a tone instantly puts the listener into a defensive posture, and the speaker is seen as hostile and disingenuous.
>
>----
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 12:10:46
In reply to Re: My FINAL post. » lou pilder, posted by Bittersweet on February 14, 2003, at 12:06:07]
> Bittersweet,
> You wrote,[....if only you would remove the {stick}].
> Could you clarify what the {stick} is in your post? If you could, then I could respond accordingly.
> Lou----
[Posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 12:15:20
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus and I don't want to suffer » lou pilder, posted by Eddie Sylvano on February 14, 2003, at 12:06:41]
> ES,
> I believe that this discussion as to the merits or demerits of the poster's style in writing could be better appreciated on the social board.
> Lou----
[Posted by Bittersweet on February 14, 2003, at 12:23:55
In reply to Re: My FINAL post. » Bittersweet, posted by lou pilder on February 14, 2003, at 12:10:46]
> > Bittersweet,
> > You wrote,[....if only you would remove the {stick}].
> > Could you clarify what the {stick} is in your post? If you could, then I could respond accordingly.
> > Lou
>
> * * * * *
>
> ROTFLMFAO... I thought that was pretty clear - oh well...hehe
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:48:37
In reply to Redirected: I am not Jesus, posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:45:55
> you sound like a reasonable guy, if only you would remove the stick...
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel put down. I just asked you to be civil, so now I'm going to block you from posting for a week.
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, thanks.
Posted by likelife on February 15, 2003, at 17:52:57
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus « Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:23:33
Lou,
When I mentioned proselytism (and perhaps I have the wrong definition of the word in mind), I was referring to what I perceived as titleistguy's attemps to win converts to the Christian faith, a conclusion I admit I inferred from his writing, mostly in response to this statement
[You know what EVERYONE on this board needs, rather than this COMPULSIVE urge to try EVERY DAMN PILL NEW ON THE MARKET?????????????????:
JESUS CHRIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]It is human nature to infer meaning from context, and we each do this in a different way, based upon our unique experiences.
It is difficult for me to swallow the ideas of a person who is sure he knows what *I* need, without having first looked at *my* history. While it is true that titleistguy has had experiences similar to those of us on the board, that does not make his experience, and therefore his solution, representative of those of others (including myself).
You wrote:
[I feel that he was writing about his faith experiance that involved psychotropic drugs and was posting that here as to , perhaps, give a warning that those type of drugs could be very harmfull, for he wrote of the damage that was done to him by them and how his life was saved through his faith.]Your motive for expressing what you feel he was writing about is the same as mine was--we just happen to have different opinions, which of course are meaningless if they cannot be substantiated by the source. However, I wouldn't have minded his post so much if it had clearly and singly focused on *his* experience, rather than proscribing a single solution for everyone. I find it hard to believe that anyone else could know what I could get from a relationship with a spiritual figure (see: "With Jesus on your side do you even KNOW what you'll get???????????????????????").
People are entitled to speak of their faith experiences in any way they see fit, I am not afraid of zeal, but I maintain that I do not need to listen to comments such as [I mean, to all you people who are taking an ANTIPSYCHOTIC for friggin' ANXIETY. . . you are SO DAMN SCREWED UP I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO COMMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!] which are directed at me (I have taken antipsychotics, for depression), and may in fact, be offended by them. I feel I am entitled to speak to that which offends me.
While I appreciate your efforts to back up titleistguy and his ideas (again, this is my perception), I still do not agree with you. It is possible to have differences of opinion. I have found in the past that there seem to be a preponderance of people in my life who are hell-bent on converting me, and who are uncomfortable with such differences of opinion. Admittedly, I bring this bias to my writings.
(Thought I should re-post here; I seem to have lost your second post...)
Posted by Dena on February 15, 2003, at 22:21:23
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus « Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dr. Bob on February 14, 2003, at 13:23:33
I'm new here, so I hope I'm doing this right. I've been enjoying reading some of the messages on this board. First of all, I'm a believer in Jesus. I'm also one of His "wounded children" who has sought solace in His healing, & have also resorted to using the "crutch" of antidepressants while awaiting some of His deeper healing work. He delivered me completely from bulimia two years ago (I'd been a slave to bulimia for over 21 years & had tried every method of "recovery" known to man). Praise God, I'm free from bulimia - no temptations, no maintenance required on my part to "stay healed". I know miracles happen. I also know some healings take time, work, cooperation & other stuff that I'm clueless about! So... I also praise God for medications that enable me to function & maintain balance while trusting that He can & will restore me to fullness one day. Maybe even before I die.
Anyone else out there dealing with trying to pray when depression/negativity seems to get in the way?
thanks, Dr. Bob, for providing this forum!
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 11:18:53
In reply to Re: I am not Jesus « Eddie Sylvano, posted by Dena on February 15, 2003, at 22:21:23
Dena,
You wrote,[...miracles happen...]. Could you write of one that you know of? If you could, it could offer others a testimonial to the existance of God.
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 15:04:05
In reply to Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 11:18:53
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...miracles happen...]. Could you write of one that you know of? If you could, it could offer others a testimonial to the existance of God.
> Lou
Hi Lou - thanks for asking. I'd be happy to describe a miracle that's happened to me. But please know something: for an unbeliever, no amount of miracles could be ever be enough to instill belief. For a believer, no miracles are necessary. God doesn't want you to be "proved" into believing in Him - then you'd just be a robot who'd been backed into a corner. He wants you to respond to the universe He's created around you, really look at it, really study it's amazingly, orderly, designed way of operating - & then realize that Someone must have put all of this together. (Even throughout the scientific community, evolution is losing ground & many, many, very intelligent people are saying that the more they probe the depths of the universe, & the more they seek to understand the meaning of life in a chromosone, the more they have to acknowledge that there's an intelligent designer behind it all.)You may have heard mention of a "God-shaped void" that's inside of all of us. God put it there. It's His calling card. He created us because He wants to have relationship with us, and we find our greatest sense of belonging, of purpose, in relating back to Him. That void cries out in each person. It's like a hunger. But because we're inclined to "go it alone", & we generally resent submitting to any sort of authority, we seek to fill that void by or own means: relationships with people, careers, seeking pleasure, thrill-seeking, food, sex, money, alcohol, drugs, you name it. I mean, most of the things we turn to are good things, but to put them in the place of honor, to make them the focus of our lives, leaves us still hungry inside, empty, dissatisfied. We think, "there must be something MORE". There is. There's God. Not God as we each understand him to be, not God limited to anyone's understanding, nor limited by anything else at all. Just God.
The key to "finding" Him is humility. An attitude of "prove yourself to me" is based on pride - an assumption that somehow the Creator of the universe owes us something. If we can get quiet & real with ourselves, & acknowledge that our own attempts to find meaning & purpose have left us longing for more, then we're halfway there. Then, take a leap of faith (an exercise of extreme risk) & say, "I want to know if You're real. I want to know You as you really are. Creator-God, reveal yourself to me." And then, pay attention. Open your mind & your eyes to the possibility that perhaps nothing is a coincidence. Perhaps everything is orchestrated in and around us. Perhaps an eternal Someone loves us & wants to be loved back. Most of us want to see before we believe. Ironically, most of us will never see until we first believe.
Back to the miracle:
Due to many factors, I became bulimic at the age of 18. It did for me what alcohol, drugs & sex could not (although I indulged in those as well). Very quickly, it took over my life. I binged and purged several times per day, as often as I could get away with it. I resorted to shoplifting in order to keep up with my "need" to binge. For 21 years it consumed and ruled me. (as an aside, I became a believer in God & his Son, Jesus at age 15; but at 18 I became rebellious, & asked God to take a "back seat" in my life. He's a gentleman, so He did so. Even though He never stopped loving me, He didn't violate my right of free will to make choices - even choices which could kill me.) During this time, I got married, had several children, bought homes, did all the normal life things. But I was living a sham, because my main focus, my number one priority was to binge and purge. It sounds so stupid, but I was completely enslaved to it.I tried everything I knew to stop: willpower (ha!), psychotherapy (to the tune of 20+ counselors), hypnosis, 12-step programs, countless books, in-patient treatment (5 different 30-day sessions), court-ordered treatment (after being arrested three times for shoplifting food), every anti-depressant known to man, church, prayer, Bible-reading, exorcism, colonics, inner-healing, you name it. I put my heart & soul into trying to recover! At 5'1", I weighed 80lbs, my husband was giving up on me, my children were suffering horribly, I spent all day, every day, going from the kitchen to binge to the bathroom to purge. I should have been dead. And yet, I could not stop. The shame was enormous. I felt like a filthy hypocrite, a worthless scum. I didn't understand why I seemed willing to throw my life away for eating food & throwing it up!
In a desperate attempt I reached out for help again in November, 2000. My doctor didn't know what else to do for me. He suggested that my husband & I update our will. My therapist suggested that I go to yet another in-patient treatment center (despite the fact that I was nursing a small infant at the time). She said I was one of the worst cases of bulimic addiction she had ever seen, that it was going to be a long, hard, uphill battle (for at least another five years), and the end of which I may be able to cope better. Cope better? And not even a guarantee?
I then heard about a ministry, called Theophostic (Greek for God-Light), which was reporting wonderful success with all sorts of "impossible" problems, in very short time. Yeah, right, I thought; too good to be true. But I was desperate, so I tried it out. Within three weeks (about four sessions), I was free from bulimia. I could go into endless details of what happened, but here it is in a nutshell: the counselor asked me to focus on my panic & pain that I felt whenever I desperately wanted to binge & purge but couldn't. She asked the Lord Jesus to take me back to where that panic & pain first entered my life(she told me not to edit, but to just report anything I "saw", felt or thought). I had a distinct impression of an embryo, floating in the uterus, & I knew instinctively that it was me, prior to birth. I had a sensation of impending doom, a sense of intense deprivation; feeling the need to protect myself, to take care of myself, but of course I was completely helpless. I reported all of this, & the counselor asked the Lord to show me what lie I had started believing in back then. I didn't "hear" anything, but I sensed the words, "I must take care of my own needs or else I will die of deprivation! When I can, I'll make sure that I'm never deprived again!" Then, the counselor asked the Lord to show me the Truth from His perspective. In my mind, I "saw" strong arms coming around me & holding me. I sensed the words, "It's my job to keep you from deprivation, not yours. I am your provider."
I went home from that session, really not feeling anything different, except for a sense of hope. For the next three weeks, I found myself not wanting to binge or purge. I even tried to make myself do it once, out of curiosity, & it felt foreign to me. One day, while explaining this change in me to my children, my eldest daughter asked, "Mom, what should we do if we see you bingeing or purging again?" I was formulating my answer, about to say something along the lines of, "Tell your father", when out of my mouth came the words, "I'll never do it again. I'm free from bulimia." My husband & I were so startled that we both yelled, "What!?"
It's been over two years since that time, & I've remained completely bulimia-free. I'm at a normal weight, & I'm healthy (in fact, in all those years of abusing my body, the only damage has been some tooth enamel damage from stomach acid). Bulimia is simply no longer a part of my life - it's not who I am. I don't have to do anything to maintain my healing. It's complete. It's not like "tolerable recovery" that I hoped to experience back in my 12-step days. I don't have to make a choice to be abstinent each day - it doesn't even occur to me! I was bulimic - very bulimic - and now I'm simply not.
My doctor remains flabbergasted. The therapist who told me I'd have to go back to treatment won't even speak to me (she's waiting for the "relapse"). I eat whatever I want, whenever I want to. I can stop when I've had enough. I eat things that used to "trigger" me. I don't worry about food. I'm free to live life & be a wife & a mom! It's incredible.
I truly believe that our problems stem from believing lies that were planted way back in our histories. Either someone deliberately deceived us ("You're so stupid!" "You're worthless!"), or we came to believe lies about ourselves on our own. These lies became "truth" to us. God has been gracious to take me back to the source of these lies & to replace them with His truth. No fanfare, no fireworks, just freedom from lies. Freedom to live in truth. I still have troubles, because not all of the lies have been dealt with yet - in fact I think it takes a lifetime to deal with all the lies. If anyone is curious about this approach to recovery, check out http://www.theophostic.com/ I get nothing out of this referral. It just helped me & led me to my miracle, so I pass it along.
Goodness, this was long! Contratulations to those who endured to the end!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 15:37:17
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 15:04:05
Dena,
You wrote,[...God wants you to respond to the universe...study its order, design,...].
I am a jewish believer in God. And I agree with you that the universe has a purpose like you write of. I believe that the stars and planets and moons have been created to be [signs] to us and that the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 17:28:28
In reply to response to Lou Pilder, posted by likelife on February 15, 2003, at 17:52:57
likelife,
Our discussion seems to be [not] about faith ,but about diferences of opinion as to inferrences made by titleistguy's post(s) and there is at least one missing post that was relevant to our discussion. Could you transfer your post to the social board? There, our discussion would not be constrained to matters of faith and others could contribute relevant to the non-faith aspects of our discussion.
Best regards,
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 18:27:30
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 15:37:17
> Dena,
> You wrote,[...God wants you to respond to the universe...study its order, design,...].
> I am a jewish believer in God. And I agree with you that the universe has a purpose like you write of. I believe that the stars and planets and moons have been created to be [signs] to us and that the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament shows His handiwork.
> LouAmen, Lou! Psalm 91 is one of my favorites. Sometimes, just looking up at the night sky, at the vastness of it all - I mean, no one's found the end of it yet! To think that the same Creator who made all that, took the time to make each one of us so different & unique & intricate; & He wants to relate with us! wow.
My husband is also Jewish. Since his parents divorced years ago & remarried, I have both a Jewish MIL & a Greek-Orthodox MIL! Everyone should be so blessed!
Thanks for responding - I'm starting to feel a little bit less like a newcomer...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 18:58:40
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 18:27:30
Dena,
Psalm 91? Would not it be Psalm 19?
Lou
Posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 19:15:14
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 18:58:40
Oops - sorry Lou! That's what I get for trying to type and nurse a baby at the same time! But I DO also like Psalm 91..."He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the Lord, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust... [& at the end; God speaking]He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him and honor him. With long life I will satisfy him, and show him My salvation.'"
Shalom, Dena
See how well I can type when I use both hands? Shifting is a lot easier too, LOL!
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 19:19:25
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 19:15:14
Dena,
I am in Cincinnati, Ohio. Are you close to here?
Lou
Posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 15:32:02
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Lou Pilder, posted by Dena on February 16, 2003, at 15:04:05
>yet - in fact I think it takes a lifetime to deal with all the lies. If anyone is curious about this approach to recovery, check out http://www.theophostic.com/ I get nothing out of this referral. It just helped me & led me to my miracle, so I pass it along.
>That was inspirational Dena, and thanks for sharing the site too. Theophostic reminds me of whole hearted healing.
http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?FORM=AS35&v=1&RS=CHECKED&srch=5&q=whole+hearted+healing
WHH is something a person can do on themselves, and it doesn't cost anything. Once you learn the technique in theophostic can you practice it on yourself, or do you need a professional?Personally, I think we should rely more on ourselves, and do some of this in our late night insomnia, when we are in the right state to force a relaxation and have no distractions.
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:51:33
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 15:32:02
> >yet - in fact I think it takes a lifetime to deal with all the lies. If anyone is curious about this approach to recovery, check out http://www.theophostic.com/ I get nothing out of this referral. It just helped me & led me to my miracle, so I pass it along.
> >
>
> That was inspirational Dena, and thanks for sharing the site too. Theophostic reminds me of whole hearted healing.
> http://auto.search.msn.com/results.asp?FORM=AS35&v=1&RS=CHECKED&srch=5&q=whole+hearted+healing
> WHH is something a person can do on themselves, and it doesn't cost anything. Once you learn the technique in theophostic can you practice it on yourself, or do you need a professional?
>
> Personally, I think we should rely more on ourselves, and do some of this in our late night insomnia, when we are in the right state to force a relaxation and have no distractions.
Thanks for the link - I just checked it out. I've seen this kind of thing before; it's one of the "knock-offs" of Theophostic Ministry, only they take God out of the picture. I've discovered that relying solely on human understanding/insight is very limited. My mind, or the mind of another, can only go so far. But God made me, He knows me better than I do myself, & only He can give me His unlimited, ultimate Truth. Although Theophostic ministry is a Christian ministry (not a therapy), God has been gracious & faithful to heal even those who don't know Him. Anyone can get a free copy of a cassette tape from theophostic.com
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:55:06
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena, posted by Lou Pilder on February 16, 2003, at 19:19:25
> Dena,
> I am in Cincinnati, Ohio. Are you close to here?
> Lou
Hi Lou - I tried three times to reply to this post, but the computer kept eating it! Maybe you already got this, but I live in Fairfax, Virginia, although I've lived all over the place (army brat).
Posted by Lou Pilder on February 17, 2003, at 19:02:19
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:55:06
D,
Fairfax, Virginia. Revolutionary War-Civil War-George Mason University. Interstate 95. Robert E. Lee. George Washington, Virginia University, founded by Thomas Jefferson (1812?). Stock car racing, the Great Shenadoah Valley, Virginia Beach, more and more and more. What a place to live!!!!!!
Lou
Posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 20:03:38
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 17:51:33
>
> Thanks for the link - I just checked it out. I've seen this kind of thing before; it's one of the "knock-offs" of Theophostic Ministry, only they take God out of the picture.Exactly, that's the main thing I don't like about it, but it is easy to include God into it.
> I've discovered that relying solely on human understanding/insight is very limited. My mind, or the mind of another, can only go so far. But God made me, He knows me better than I do myself, & only He can give me His unlimited, ultimate Truth. Although Theophostic ministry is a Christian ministry (not a therapy), God has been gracious & faithful to heal even those who don't know Him. Anyone can get a free copy of a cassette tape from theophostic.com
>
>I would like to listen to this tape.
Posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 21:20:29
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » Dena , posted by rayww on February 17, 2003, at 20:03:38
Hi Rayww!
I agree with you - when we take God out of the focus, He lets us. I've found that even with the best of intentions I can get myself into loads of trouble when I'm in the driver's seat! My question to you would be: why reinvent the wheel? Why take a secularized approach to healing & squeeze God in, rather than go to the original, which was designed by God? (I truly believe that this form of healing works because it's based on the way Jesus healed while He was here on earth - He healed then - and He still heals today).
I encourage you to check out the theophostic.com website. And the tape is definitely worth ordering (especially since it's free)! Theophistic Ministry (TM) counselors can either be laymen or professional, & they'll charge accordingly - I had no problem getting it covered by my insurance since my counselor was a LCSW. I've been trained myself, as a lay(wo)man, but God just isn't having me minister to anyone at this point. The cool thing about TM (& I DON'T mean transcendental meditation!) is that you don't have to go for counseling for very long; God is able to do in moments/days/weeks what it takes years to do in traditional therapy.
It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him. The house & the surrounding crowd can be likened to all the clutter that gets in the way of our healing (i.e., denial, fear, repression, false beliefs, etc.). The friends are likened to the TM counselor in that they don't actually do any of the work, they just help their friend get into, & stay in, the presense of Jesus. Jesus does all the work Himself. He knows best what needs to be worked on first, & next, & next. And when He does the healing, it's deep, real & maintenance free (my favorite part)!
I believe that somewhere along the line (perhaps during the time of the "Great Enlightenment" when mankind started to think they didn't need God, or anyone else, to be in charge) we've traded the simple, direct, "inside-out" way in which Jesus heals for the more complicated, secular, "outside-in" way in which the recovery community approaches it. We've learned to lower our expectations, to settle for a long, hard, self-effort "tolerable recovery" that's a pale reflection of how we're meant to be healed. I mean, when Jesus healed the crippled man, He didn't say, "Pick up your mat and hobble around as best you can, one day at a time. You'll always be a cripple you know, but here's a crutch to use." No! He said, "Take up your mat and WALK." And he did because he could. And the blind guy - he didn't need glasses after he was healed... he could see! The Lord can and wants to heal us completely, and He will if we trust Him to, relying solely on Him and not on humansitic reasoning. In the Bible, He healed every single person who got into His presense and asked Him to. He didn't refuse any of them. Sure, there were still lots of sick, handicapped & mentally ill folks wandering around, but they didn't ask Him for healing. If they asked, He healed. I think the key is in getting out of the way (both the client & the counselor) & allowing Him to do what He does best.
I've taken a lot of slack from both the church & the recovery community. I've been accused of being delusional about my healing. We've ben so trained to accept only the "tolerable recovery" approach that most people don't have a file for healing. All I know is I once was lost & now am found, was blind but now I see. Praise God!
Posted by rayww on February 18, 2003, at 0:32:50
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 17, 2003, at 21:20:29
> It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him.
I find it quite a coincidence that you would mention that particular miracle, because I was thinking about that same scripture yesterday too. I have a question. The scripture says, "Thy sins are forgiven thee, take up thy bed and walk
"http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/5/20#20When we are forgiven of our sin, are the effects of that sin healed as well? Is there that kind of power in the Lord's forgiveness? (These are my own thoughts here) Some mental and physical illnesses are a direct result of sin. If we repent of the sin, and then receive forgiveness, is the disorder healed too? I'm going to put it to the test and see for myself if it works, starting yesterday.
I know some people are gifted healers.
Posted by Dena on February 18, 2003, at 9:23:52
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by rayww on February 18, 2003, at 0:32:50
>
>
> > It's like the Biblical account of the two guys who lowered their crippled friend down from the roof so he could get right in front of Jesus, who healed him.
>
>
> I find it quite a coincidence that you would mention that particular miracle, because I was thinking about that same scripture yesterday too. I have a question. The scripture says, "Thy sins are forgiven thee, take up thy bed and walk
> "http://scriptures.lds.org/luke/5/20#20
>
> When we are forgiven of our sin, are the effects of that sin healed as well? Is there that kind of power in the Lord's forgiveness? (These are my own thoughts here) Some mental and physical illnesses are a direct result of sin. If we repent of the sin, and then receive forgiveness, is the disorder healed too? I'm going to put it to the test and see for myself if it works, starting yesterday.
>
>
> I know some people are gifted healers.Wow - what a great question! I think it's all about God's grace. And what we need. We're always forgiven when we ask, I know that. But sometimes the consequences of the sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen. But I've discovered that when I have to go through the consequences, I'm not going through it alone; and even then, I end up with some sort of blessing for having been obedient about seeking forgiveness.
Another source of healing is when we forgive others. Even if they don't deserve it. Even if they don't ask for it. Even if what they did was horrendous. When we withhold forgiveness it's like swallowing poison & waiting for the other person to die; we end up being hurt. I read a report recently that doctors have linked cancer w/ bitterness in people's lives - the Bible says that bitterness eats away at our bones. I've found tremendous release from all sorts of problems (physical, emotional, spiritual) when I've forgiven others. But still, it's a struggle every time - especially if I've really been hurt. But it's so important to keep the slate clean, both with asking for forgiveness & in giving it.
(Sorry - didn't mean to launch into a sermon)
Yes, many people have the gift of healing. But God can use any of us to heal others, if He chooses and we're willing to be available.
We pray for healing all the time, & sometimes the healing is miraculous & sometimes it comes through medicine.Where do you fellowship?
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 0:42:47
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by Dena on February 18, 2003, at 9:23:52
Dena, you really do have a deep understanding of this, and I can tell you are a person who likes to figure things out. I like your thoughts, and I have interjected some of my own between the < > to show we basically agree, if that's OK :)
> Wow - what a great question! I think it's all about God's grace. And what we need. We're always forgiven when we ask, I know that.
We are always forgiven <when we repent, and then ask>. Even after all we can do, we still rely upon the Grace of God for forgiveness and salvation.
>But sometimes the consequences of the <unrepented> sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen. But I've discovered that when I have to go through the consequences, I'm not going through it alone; and even then, I end up with some sort of blessing for having been obedient about seeking forgiveness.
<because it takes a long time, even a life time to repent sometimes, and God stays very very very near in our journey through repentance, showering us with little miracles of more than coincidence along the way>This has been an interesting discussion
Posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena, posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 0:42:47
Good morning Rayww! I'm really enjoying our running thread too! Being a homeschool mom of 7, some days I hardly get to use 1/8 of my vocabulary. And believe me, if I start going off into theology - their eyes glaze over! A Mom (like a prophet) is never appreciated in her own home!
Thanks for your inserts, I agree with all of them. Only one, though, I'd like to elaborate on. You inserted: >But sometimes the consequences of the <unrepented> sin happen anyway, because this world is fallen.
Yes, definitely, we sow what we reap when our sin remains unrepentant. It's a basic spiritual law, just as effective as gravity (although God retains the right/ability to supercede natural laws with His supernational power, i.e., stopping people from falling in the case of gravity, etc.). But back to my point, I've observed that many times, even when a person does repent, sincerely, consequences of the sin may still follow. Charles Colson, for example, broke the law during the Watergate scandal. Prior to his being incarcerated, he became a believer, & sincerely repented. Still, he had to go to jail. In hindsight, we know that God used his incarceration to launch a ministry that now reaches prisoners around the world. In my own case, I sincerely repented of the sins associated with being bulimic (lies I told, things I stole, relationships I harmed). I was truly forgiven. But the consequences for those sins remained: I still had a reputation of being dishonest; I had to pay for the things I'd stolen; I had to face the damaged relationships. But the good news is that God is in the restoration process. He's faithful to work everything together in our lives for good (especially as it makes us more like Jesus). Even when it doesn't look, feel or seem to be good at the time. We never get the big picture of God's perspective, so we have to learn to trust Him even when we don't understand. (which is most of the time, for me!)
If you don't mind my asking, what's your own testimony? How did you meet the Lord? Where has He led you to fellowship? Don't feel pressured to respond unless you want to. I'll be happy to share my own story, if you're interested. Maybe our stories would be helpful to others.
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:29:52
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » rayww, posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
WOW! what a committment. You obviously are not bipolar in any sense of the word, nor do you dissociate. You are in reality 24/7.
Personally, I can't pin point a moment in time that I became a believer, but here's a try. When I was 4 years old I thought my mommy was going to die. She and my dad were hundreds of miles away in a hospital and there was no communication between us. I didn't know if I would ever see her again. I distinctly remember laying in bed, hot summer night, face covered in sweat and tears, aunt sitting beside me running her fingers through my hair trying to comfort me, feeling the cool from the breeze coming in through the window against my wet hair, and I was comforted. I will never forget the spirit of peace that I felt. A child can recognize answers to prayers. I knew she would be all right from that moment on, and come home again. It was the "everything will be all right assurance" that can only come from a loving Father in Heaven. And, if it hadn't been so illuminating and powerful, I would not remember it to this day. My mother's healing was a pure miracle from God, and we knew it, and that experience made believers of everyone in our community, all my friends at church, it was one of those faith promoting experiences that got told repeatedly in every class I attended whenever the teacher would ask, "has anyone had an experience with healing by the priesthood they would like to relate?"
Posted by rayww on February 19, 2003, at 11:48:30
In reply to Re: Miracles-Dena » rayww, posted by Dena on February 19, 2003, at 9:30:34
This is my family
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp/and this is my belief:
http://www.providentliving.org/
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Faith | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.