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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 2:01:53
Hi, everyone,
OK, it's been a month, did anyone read this? What did you think?
Bob
Posted by Mashogr8 on October 18, 2002, at 10:45:27
In reply to The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 2:01:53
I've read five chapters so far. I like it but it is hard for me to read about how the community is generally responding and isolating the " one of the main characters ? can't remember his name 'cause I'm at work" and dthe book's at home. I also intensely dislike the reference to "dummy". It's like principals referring to special ed studernts as "SPED". At this moment, I've decided one of at least two things have the potential to happen: "?" and the young girl will form a relationship or the young girl wil "have sometihng terrible happen to her"(s very difficult word finding issue, for me at this time)and the "?" will rescue her or "be valiant for her" )Hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say.
I'm supposed to read a chapter a night but it's not like jonathan Kellerman where chapters are only 9-11 pages in length, plus you don't need to pay as much attention with JK. I will continue my reading and try to get more time to read.
MA
Posted by Ritch on October 19, 2002, at 23:21:21
In reply to The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 2:01:53
> Hi, everyone,
>
> OK, it's been a month, did anyone read this? What did you think?
>
> BobVery powerful and detailed, image-provoking narrative. I finished it yesterday. I reread part III again today. Singer's suicide was disturbing. Everybody identified/projected their own ideas in him. He never expressed his own thoughts and ideas to anybody but his friend in the hospital. He became a sort of pet to everybody around him. McCullers uses only single 'quotes' in the story-that's signficant somehow. I happened to have Dylan's "Time Out of Mind" playing when I read partIII. It seemed especially poignant after Singer's suicide and Jake has to leave town hitchhiking to keep from getting thrown in jail for being an "agitator". My Heart is in the Highlands wherever I roam...
Posted by susan C on October 20, 2002, at 9:40:36
In reply to Re: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Ritch on October 19, 2002, at 23:21:21
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 2:37:56
In reply to Re: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Mashogr8 on October 18, 2002, at 10:45:27
> I also intensely dislike the reference to "dummy". It's like principals referring to special ed studernts as "SPED".
They're not civil in the book? :-)
> At this moment, I've decided one of at least two things have the potential to happen: "?" and the young girl will form a relationship or the young girl wil "have sometihng terrible happen to her"(s very difficult word finding issue, for me at this time)and the "?" will rescue her or "be valiant for her" )
So have you gotten farther? Were you right?
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 2:42:53
In reply to Re: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Ritch on October 19, 2002, at 23:21:21
> Singer's suicide was disturbing. Everybody identified/projected their own ideas in him. He never expressed his own thoughts and ideas to anybody but his friend in the hospital. He became a sort of pet to everybody around him.
Do you think that dynamic contributed to his suicide? If he'd expressed himself more, might he not have done that?
Bob
Posted by susan C on October 25, 2002, at 15:12:54
In reply to still reading will be done soon (nm), posted by susan C on October 20, 2002, at 9:40:36
This is a very familiar book. Perhaps it is the setting, like Confederancy of Dunces, it is set in the South. There is also To Kill a Mockingbird, which has the southern setting, racial conflict, a professional main character (in this case, The Heart, it was the Black, or Negro, MD) And, I can't leave out the young girl character...how similar they seem to me. A coming of age book in so many ways...the young girl, the boys (of all ages) the story of Portola, the doctor as he ages, over one brief year, struggling to achieve his goal to influence his people...I guess it keeps coming back to each of the characters having a heart that is a lonely hunter...each hunting for something, then, it changing. Each was solitary. Most poiniently(sp) portrayed by the mute deaf. He was so lonely and had so comfortably developed an enabling relationship with the greek. Then, Mr Singer was thrust in to unending relationships of the same kind...people talking to him, endlessly, no one expecting response, or if so, a minimal one... I don't think Mr Singer ever became aware of the similarity between his relationship to the greek and the later relationships others had with him. Unfortunately, I think this isolation contributed to Mr Singer's suicide. He kept thinking the Greek would get better, that their settled life would continue, or return, to what it had been.
I think there is more here that I think about, the almost total absence of the mother, the manic depressive behavior of the short guy, the depressed dad, the economics of the time it was written, the role and responsibilities of men and women and last but not least, how rape scenes are portrayed in literature.
mouse
Posted by Mashogr8 on October 25, 2002, at 16:17:59
In reply to Re: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 2:37:56
It's not so much that they are or are not civil to him (Singer). It's more that so far as I've read (through Chpater 6) that no one seems to try to make it a two way conversation. They, at times, keep company with him but I haven't yet seen any back and forth interaction between the characters where they are seeking more information from Singer. They wonder to each other about him but not with him. Again, it's similar to the special education students in a mainstream school (which I am definitely in favor of). The other students are willilng and even eager to help them stay on task, line up properly, read passages to them, even greet them hello. But most of these same children do not extend that same concern and interaction with the special ed. student (or different child for that matter) on the playground. When communication is difficult, some children demonstrate fear and/or bewilderment that they don't know what the child is saying or that the child might have an anger outburst directed at them. I understand this part and it's our job as educators to act as advocates for all children and encourage opportunities to break down those walls. But it's the students who don't want them to play basketball (we're talking 15 minutes of shooting, dribbling or passing) none of which Down's Syndrome children are particularly skilled at) who never ever invite them to join. Kids know they don't have the skills. They also know that they (the special ed. students will expect to always play. If you play basketball once you play it all the time.
With Singer I wonder if there is a built in fear that the talkers worry that they will not understand what he might express to them. Are the afraid of his voice and the lack of intelligibility if Singer were to be encouraged to speak to them? Are they afraid they won't like what he has to say --Is it dark? Or worse yet, maybe they might have to become involved and help.
Also, I think I have read this book, not quite sure, but I'll know when I get further in the book. I should be able to read half of part 2 this weekend.The book reminds of a novel, written by Taylor Caldwell, called the "Listener" (if I remember correctly). People would stop by this wayside chapel(I think) and tell their stories of woe, despair and fear. Generally, they felt better after knowing "someone" listened to them. I keep thinking that Singer is that type of force in "The Heart Is A Lonely Hunter." When I first read the Caldwell book, I needed to read and reread it; I wanted so much for a similar place to be available for me. With McCullers book, I want a place or person for Singer to have for comfort. I want him to find peace and a place in life with someone who will appreciate him not use and abuse him over and over again as Antanopolis (I forget his name/spelling)treats him.
...My thoughts currently, I still ahve more to read.MA
Posted by Ritch on October 25, 2002, at 21:11:42
In reply to Re: The Heart is a Lonely Hunter, posted by Dr. Bob on October 25, 2002, at 2:42:53
> > Singer's suicide was disturbing. Everybody identified/projected their own ideas in him. He never expressed his own thoughts and ideas to anybody but his friend in the hospital. He became a sort of pet to everybody around him.
>
> Do you think that dynamic contributed to his suicide? If he'd expressed himself more, might he not have done that?
>
> BobYes, he was always in a listening role. He listened through reading everyone's lips and could understand *their* conflicts. He was able to communicate with sign language, but always kept his "hands in his pockets". He did write short notes to people, but they were very brief. If he could have written more lengthy letters to others maybe they could have felt some genuine understanding of his own unique personal situation and he would have felt a need to relate the story of his experience of his friend's death to someone later on...
Mitch
Posted by Ritch on October 25, 2002, at 21:19:50
In reply to I must have read this before..., posted by susan C on October 25, 2002, at 15:12:54
> This is a very familiar book. Perhaps it is the setting, like Confederancy of Dunces, it is set in the South. There is also To Kill a Mockingbird, which has the southern setting, racial conflict, a professional main character (in this case, The Heart, it was the Black, or Negro, MD) And, I can't leave out the young girl character...how similar they seem to me. A coming of age book in so many ways...the young girl, the boys (of all ages) the story of Portola, the doctor as he ages, over one brief year, struggling to achieve his goal to influence his people...I guess it keeps coming back to each of the characters having a heart that is a lonely hunter...each hunting for something, then, it changing. Each was solitary. Most poiniently(sp) portrayed by the mute deaf. He was so lonely and had so comfortably developed an enabling relationship with the greek. Then, Mr Singer was thrust in to unending relationships of the same kind...people talking to him, endlessly, no one expecting response, or if so, a minimal one... I don't think Mr Singer ever became aware of the similarity between his relationship to the greek and the later relationships others had with him. Unfortunately, I think this isolation contributed to Mr Singer's suicide. He kept thinking the Greek would get better, that their settled life would continue, or return, to what it had been.
>
> I think there is more here that I think about, the almost total absence of the mother, the manic depressive behavior of the short guy, the depressed dad, the economics of the time it was written, the role and responsibilities of men and women and last but not least, how rape scenes are portrayed in literature.
>
> mouseI was talking with some coworkers tonight about the Great Depression and I told them about my Mom's family who lived in a remote rural area in the South (northern Arkansas). My grandfather worked for the WPA (Works Progress Administration), and made very little money. My Mom told me there was one winter where they only ate chicken eggs for two weeks. In the story Jake Blount mentioned that 1/3 of the country during parts of the depression-era were malnourished and starving.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2002, at 0:23:51
In reply to still reading will be done soon (nm), posted by susan C on October 20, 2002, at 9:40:36
Posted by Dinah on November 4, 2002, at 10:13:40
In reply to Re: not to push, but reading done yet? :-) (nm), posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2002, at 0:23:51
Now mind you, *literature* is not my strong suit, and without Cliff notes or an English teacher, I'm quite likely to have got it all wrong.
There were four main people who gravitated towards Singer. Three of the four, possibly all four of the four, had no real connections to others in their life. The people with strong social connections didn't fall under Singer's spell as much.
Jake and Dr. Copeland loved the masses, but didn't care all that much for people. So they didn't have people in their lives that they could relate to. Mick didn't fit in with her classmates, and she didn't fit in with her family. An alienated youth. All three had their head filled with ideas that no one else cared about or understood. And in Singer, the ultimate blank slate, they thought they had for the first time found someone who not only understood them but accepted them as they were. A white man who didn't see Dr. Copeland as a black man, a man who brought Jake home when others were afraid. A man who listened to the ideas that tore through Mick's mind, and who bought a radio though he couldn't hear. Strangely, it never occurred to them to question their conclusions. Mick never wondered how a deaf man could understand her talk of music. They were drawn to him by that heady and seductive combination of feeling understood and feeling accepted.
Brannon was the observer, also lonely, but his relationship with Singer seemed different somehow. I think he found Singer and Singer's relationships with the others a puzzle. If I remember correctly, Singer said the others were filled with ideas while Brannon was filled with questions.
The funny part was that Singer had the same relationship with Antonapoulos that the three people who wanted to be understood had with Singer. Perhaps Singer had a clearer idea that Antonapoulos was not the person he had made him out to be, but he chose to forget that. Like Singer with the others, Antonapoulos could be what Singer wanted him to be, a listening and accepting ear. Able to communicate just enough that he felt understood, but not so much that his fantasies were shattered. And he valued that relationship so much that he lavished gifts on his friend, travelled long distances to see him, and lived from visit to visit by keeping up an internal dialogue with him. It is no surprise to me that Singer killed himself when this relationship, which was largely a fantasy one anyway, was taken from him.
He had the chance to speak to the other mutes at the end, but he had nothing to say. Because he didn't want to be heard and actually understood as much as he wanted to be heard and perfectly, magically understood.
In the end, the relationships with Singer changed nothing for anyone. It just made them feel peaceful and safe while it existed.
I don't know about what the story really meant, but for me, it made me give some thought to my therapy. :)
Dinah
Posted by susan C on November 4, 2002, at 11:52:19
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book, posted by Dinah on November 4, 2002, at 10:13:40
They were drawn to him by that heady and seductive combination of feeling understood and feeling accepted.
Is this not the essence of unconditional love? Of not being judged?
For not being "literate" You did a hell of a job Dinah. I almost cried a couple times reading your evaluation of the different characters. I did not get to the point of wondering about the deaf man with a radio...that one snuck by me. It seemed so natural when he brought it home. I guess, I too, was under the spell of Mr Singer.
I think in the end, even when he met the mutes, that sad exchange, or rather,lack of exchange, showed how important it was for Singer to give of him self, his own commitment in a relationship. When he did not take the risk, when he felt alienated, when he felt these people could not replace his friend, he felt hopeless.
Poor Mr Singer, he did not have the skills or perhaps the awareness to build a complex social network. He had a social network string of one. When it broke, so did he.
I have spent a lot of time thinking about this. I could not help but see a mirror to my life. I counted up my friends recently and was overwhelmed at how many people care about me. I asked one question: If something happened to me, where I needed help and advice, to whom would I turn? (no, I did not say "ghost-busters!!)
Not that long ago, I would have only listed one or two people. I was shocked. I was so shocked, I started to intentionally build friendships. It was hard, because, I have been very ill and very afraid. How could I be a friend to someone when I could hardly take care of myself? How could I rebuild friendships that had been lost to time, distance and misunderstanding?
I don't have the answers, but I think I have made progress, and it certainly has given me practice holding my tongue at times (slippery bugger).
Advancing Mouse
Posted by Dinah on November 6, 2002, at 0:51:56
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book, posted by susan C on November 4, 2002, at 11:52:19
Thank you Mouse. :)
Like you, I saw a mirror to my own life in this book.
I am so happy for you for all that you've accomplished in reaching out to others. :)
You're right in that Singer hadn't recently, if ever, participated in the give and take of normal everyday conversation, and probably found it very odd. He either talked and talked or listened and listened.
And you're right about the unconditional love as well. Feeling both understood and accepted is wonderful. But does it really exist? In this book I didn't see it. Antonapoulas certainly felt no genuine love, acceptance, or understanding of Singer. Singer seemed to feel kindly enough towards his guests, and did accept them, but from the rare glimpses into his thoughts it seems clear he didn't love or understand them. Everyone felt this wonderful feeling of connection, but it was all based on misunderstandings. Is the fake unconditional love, acceptance, and understanding preferable to the real conditional and flawed love we can reasonably hope to find? Is its loss worth dying over? What did Singer have left to live for when his friend died? How can a somewhat acceptable reality compete with a perfect fantasy?
The others all had something else to tide them over when the dream was lost. Dr. Copeland and Jake had their obsessions. Mick had her responsibilities. What did Singer have?
But do you think any of the others were permanently changed by their association with Singer? I think the saddest part of the book to me was that in my opinion, they weren't. They just had an interlude. Then back to real life.
Posted by Dinah on November 8, 2002, at 9:43:42
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book » susan C, posted by Dinah on November 6, 2002, at 0:51:56
I haven't been able to get this book out of my mind. The search for perfect understanding and acceptance, and the feelings of Jake, Mick, and Dr. Copeland in the presence of Singer (and Singer in the presence of Antonapoulas) remind me so much of my therapy experience.
And I've just been wondering if therapy feels the same on the other end of the relationship as it did to Singer (and hopefully not Antonapoulas). Or was Singer's apparent bemusement the result of the fact that he wasn't actually trained, just serendipidously fell into the role of accepting listener/blank slate.
The whole book was rather depressing on the whole, I'm finding.
Posted by Dinah on November 12, 2002, at 18:38:47
In reply to Re: Did any therapists read the book? Or Dr. Bob?, posted by Dinah on November 8, 2002, at 9:43:42
Posted by jane d on November 13, 2002, at 14:25:34
In reply to Aww, doesn't anyone want to discuss this book more (nm), posted by Dinah on November 12, 2002, at 18:38:47
Posted by Dinah on November 16, 2002, at 22:55:52
In reply to Aww, doesn't anyone want to discuss this book more (nm), posted by Dinah on November 12, 2002, at 18:38:47
(I'm stamping my dainty size nines.)
All right already, I'll return it to the library.
Posted by Ritch on November 19, 2002, at 22:57:24
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book » susan C, posted by Dinah on November 6, 2002, at 0:51:56
> And you're right about the unconditional love as well. Feeling both understood and accepted is wonderful. But does it really exist? In this book I didn't see it. Antonapoulas certainly felt no genuine love, acceptance, or understanding of Singer. Singer seemed to feel kindly enough towards his guests, and did accept them, but from the rare glimpses into his thoughts it seems clear he didn't love or understand them. Everyone felt this wonderful feeling of connection, but it was all based on misunderstandings. Is the fake unconditional love, acceptance, and understanding preferable to the real conditional and flawed love we can reasonably hope to find? Is its loss worth dying over? What did Singer have left to live for when his friend died? How can a somewhat acceptable reality compete with a perfect fantasy?
Unconditional love either *happens* or it doesn't given any time (and it happens to everybody sometime or other-albeit fleetingly). It really exists at the moment the person who is feeling the unconditional love experiences it. So it is REAL in a subjective sense. So Jake, Mick, Dr. Copeland, and Singer all are *experiencing* this. It is REAL to them, but only at the *time* they are experiencing it. It is also IRRATIONAL in the sense that you describe.
"How can a somewhat acceptable reality compete with a perfect fantasy?"
You have hit the nail on the head! I don't think it *can* compete with it. Perfect fantasies are the stuff that makes the world go round. It seems that Southern writers somehow wander towards this topic somehow-and I always get drawn to it. Other suggestions might be Robert Penn Warren's "World Enough and Time" and Faulkner's "Light In August".
Posted by Ritch on November 19, 2002, at 23:10:49
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book » Dinah, posted by Ritch on November 19, 2002, at 22:57:24
Other suggestions might be Robert Penn Warren's "World Enough and Time" ....
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0807124788/drbobsvirte00-20
Posted by Dinah on November 20, 2002, at 17:51:12
In reply to Re: OK, I ended up reading the book » Dinah, posted by Ritch on November 19, 2002, at 22:57:24
Thanks Ritch. :) It was kind of you to indulge me.
>
> Unconditional love either *happens* or it doesn't given any time (and it happens to everybody sometime or other-albeit fleetingly). It really exists at the moment the person who is feeling the unconditional love experiences it. So it is REAL in a subjective sense. So Jake, Mick, Dr. Copeland, and Singer all are *experiencing* this. It is REAL to them, but only at the *time* they are experiencing it. It is also IRRATIONAL in the sense that you describe.So you're saying that unconditional love is experienced rather than given? I hadn't thought of it that way. I'll have to give it some thought. I've always been rather suspicious of the concept of unconditional love, but I'll have to think of it in that context.
>
> "How can a somewhat acceptable reality compete with a perfect fantasy?"
>
> You have hit the nail on the head! I don't think it *can* compete with it. Perfect fantasies are the stuff that makes the world go round. It seems that Southern writers somehow wander towards this topic somehow-and I always get drawn to it. Other suggestions might be Robert Penn Warren's "World Enough and Time" and Faulkner's "Light In August".
>
Thanks for the suggestions. I was so drawn to this book and I really didn't expect to be. In general the critical acclaim of a book has an inverse relationship to how much I like it. But this subject really attracted me and I would like to explore it more. I've kind of noticed while reading Hunter and then Awakenings that sometimes fiction can convey more truth than nonfiction.Thanks again,
Dinah
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