![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 147 to 171 of 435. Go back in thread:
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:47:16
> You really have to see them all to believe the variety. Check out: http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/emoticons.htmThat website on the emoticons is freakin' unbelievable!!! Of course most of them are useless since no one could possibly know them. My favorite is about the eunich but I won't post that here for fear of offending anyone (Dr. Bob really).
> Not too much, no. The unifying theme is the escape of superoxide anion from mitochondria, which can then react with nitric oxide to form peroxynitrite. It's all about oxidative stress, and ways to break the stress cycle, and to repair the damage. The damage tends to target polyunsaturated fatty acids, for example. Those include (Ta Daaa!) EPA and DHA....thus fish oil is necessary. See? It all comes together.
So for energy, Adrenal Fatigue and cognitive function, it's all about the mitochondria (and the adrenals of course)?
> > > > > > Larry, if you were in my situation and you had limited funds, which of the following would you choose to take for motivation, focus and adrenal fatigue?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ginkgo (yes)
> >
>>
> Also influences steroid metabolism. Cortisol, testosterone, stuff like. It's got some yin, some yang.Good, then I'm even less worried about its effect on adrenal fatigue. (I cut out stuff above so I'm trying to figure out if your yin, yang comment referred to selegiline or ginkgo. I think it's the latter, right?)
re:Picamilon you wrote:
> Beyond a Century sells it in bulk. Very much cheaper than caps, too.
SMI2Le.biz (what does that stand for, anyway?)sells it as well. I'll have to compare prices.
You obviously feel that these places sell quality stuff, right? It's a little scary to me when it doesn't have a name with a good track record on the label. (Not that that guarantees purity either.)
> I tried to get some, but they won't ship to Canada any more.That's such a shame how much tougher it is to get things in Canada. What part of Canada are you in, BTW?
> > > > > > Coenzyme Q10 (yes)
> >
> > Is co-q10 more important for CFS than for Adrenal Fatigue? It's on the expensive side so I want to make sure that it's an important one for the AF.
>
> I can't say so specifically, without hitting the books again. I'm going to have to defer that question. I'm moving into Daddy-mode for the next couple of weeks.What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO! No, Ive actually hit the books on this one. I just can't get a sense of how critical this one is. I think, since it's so expensive, that I'm going to leave it off of the original plan unless I can find it in bulk on one of the two sites I've mentioned. I can try it later as an add-in and judge from there.
> > > > > > ALA (alphalipoic acid? definitely)
> > >
> > > Extra emphasis on this, as mitochondrial protectant.
> > >
> > > > > > NAC (not sure...forget)
> > > >
> > > > Neuroprotective. Good to take with selegiline for the amphetamine metabolites even though selegiline is also neuroprotective.
> > >
> > > I knew it was liver protective. Makes sense it would be neuroprotective.
> >
> > via glutathione:
> > NAC prevents the destruction of glutathione by preventing its oxidation.
>
> That's exactly why it is the treatment of choice for ibuprofen overdose. It can actually reverse liver damage, if caught soon enough.Pretty incredible stuff.
> > > > > > DMAE (dunno)
> > > > > > ALC (if it's cheap)
> > > > > > phosphatydlserine (probbly sedating, might help with tension)
> >
> > I'm the opposite of tense right now but that could change if I had to pay for 800 mg. of PS a month.
>
> I take little bursts (I mean, every few weeks, I get the internal itch, the gut feeling to do it) of lecithin and PS. Soya lecithin granules contain three phosphatides. PS supplies the missing fourth one. I just take them together for a few days, and then I don't any more.
>
> Despite my obvious geekazoid proclivities, I honour the gut (i.e. gut feeling) within.
I like the word "geekazoid". Have to remember that one.
> Generally, 300 mg, with two teaspoons or more of lecithin granules.Do you get in bulk as well or do you pay a small fortune for it prepackaged?
> > > The synthetic and natural versions of PS are the same, or one or the other isn't PS. PS molecules don't come with little notes from their mother, attesting to bloodlines.
> > >
> >
> > Cute!
>
> Yes!
>(If you do say so yourself!)
> > > > > > piracetam or pramiracetam (dunno)
> > > > > > hydergine (dunno)
> > > > > > centrophenoxine (really dunno)
> >
> > Too funny: "dunno, dunno, really dunno"
>
> To the point, non?mais oui (Since you're Canadian, are you fluent in French?)
> > > > Have you tried any of these so-called "smart drugs"?
> > >
> > > No. Couldn't afford them. And, I'm not even sure if they're even legal to import to Canada. I just never looked at them, in depth.
> >
> >
> > I'm surprised although I guess if they're not legal to import to Canada and they're too expensive,then why get too excited about them.
>
> I already tend towards what I call "brain hum". I have no idea what nootropics might do "in there". I are kinda scared of what's "in there" already.I hear ya. (scared of what's in YOUR brain that is)
> Many many things that help with fatigue and such adversely affect my sleep. Not surprising, cognitively, but disappointing, spiritually.
>Yes, something I think of as the Elvis syndrome because I heard about how many uppers he'd take during the day to keep going and then he'd have to take a ton of downers at night to knock himself out.
Well, hope your new white noise fan works for you.
Kara
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:36:41
In reply to Re: NADH Co-Q10 » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 9:51:43
> > > CoQ10 is an antioxidant. Idebenone is a better antioxidant. If you are going for antioxidant effect, then yes, it is better. There is no substitute for CoQ10 in mitochondrial energy transfer functions.
> >
> > I guess you just answered the question I posed in my previous post about coQ10. Probably should be on my list.
>
> There is a fair amount of CoQ10 in your food. It's in both meat and vegetables. Purifying it is what makes it so expensive. You may not need extra, ya know?Wish I could just test all for all of these things easily with one simple blood test.
> > > Just for the record, one of the most powerful antioxidants is melatonin. I don't think people use it for that, though.
> >
> > With good reason. It's a hormone and there's too much else involved. (No?)
>
> Yes.
>
> > > > > Take six grams of TMG and see if you still feel that way. ;-)
> > > >
> > > > > Lar
> > > >
> > > > You're kidding with that dose, right?
> > >
> > > No. Not kidding. I bet you get a kick from it. Safe, but it would make a point, eh?
> > >
> >
> > I got no kick from SAM-e so maybe I won't get a kick from TMG either but I'll have to do the experiment to find out.
>
> I'm serious about the dose. Some people need that much, or more, to feel the effect. Thinking you need an atom bomb is a rather limiting perception.
Yes, I have a lot of limiting perceptions. Hopefully the CBT journaling will help with that.
> > > > Be well and prosper,
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > > You too. We will, you know.
> > >
> > > Lar
> >
> > I don't know but I'll take your word on it for now.
> >
> > -K
>
> Ahhh, the underpinnings of faith arise. I wish I knew an emoticon for Buddha's smile.
>
> Lar
I really liked that "We will, you know". That was sweet. Hopefully also true.I can't believe there's no emoticon for Buddha's smile. There is for everything else.
Later,
Kara
Posted by gabbix2 on August 22, 2004, at 23:33:55
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 20:30:40
> What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO!
No, no no! *Real* daddy mode, he's got two sons to go do guy stuff with for the next few days.
Posted by KaraS on August 23, 2004, at 0:06:50
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » KaraS, posted by gabbix2 on August 22, 2004, at 23:33:55
> > What is "Daddy-mode"? Making us hit the books for ourselves? BOOOO!
>
> No, no no! *Real* daddy mode, he's got two sons to go do guy stuff with for the next few days.
Oh, WOW. Larry is a daddy! Will the surprises never end? (Do either of them have his database mind?)
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 0:24:30
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog » gabbix2, posted by KaraS on August 23, 2004, at 0:06:50
Posted by Simus on August 27, 2004, at 0:41:32
In reply to Re: How did your doctor's appt. go? - Simus (nm), posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 0:24:30
Oops - I wrote to you about it but on another thread. It is toward the bottom of the page...
Simus
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:15:10
In reply to Re: How did your doctor's appt. go? - Simus » KaraS, posted by Simus on August 27, 2004, at 0:41:32
> Oops - I wrote to you about it but on another thread. It is toward the bottom of the page...
>
> SimusMaybe it's on the social board? I'll check there.
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:22:02
In reply to Re: It didn't get posted » Simus, posted by KaraS on August 27, 2004, at 10:15:10
Posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
In reply to Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on June 23, 2004, at 23:06:51
Hi Kara and all,
Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
Find Dr Pall's theory on peroxynitrite and mitochondrial dysfunction relevant to me as anything that helps reduce peroxynitrite or superoxide seems to help. Have started taking carnosine recently to help in mopping up products of mitochondrial membrane damage (4 hydroxynonenal) and help balance cellular pH. Also taking lipothiamine (thiamine + alpha lipoic acid) - one of the few B1 supplements I can tolerate, I feel quite ill on most thiamines like thiamine HCl in a lot of multiples.
I've got a feeling that the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase in the kreb's cycle is a problem, so getting a good balance of B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and alpha lipoic acid is important for me, but taking a B complex is a nightmare, and I just have to juggle the balance. At the moment I'm fine with lipothiamine and niacinamide, but have previously taken R5P, P5P, and pantethine. I have to avoid things that damage either the enzyme or B1 such as alcohol, pesticides and heavy metals. Insulin resistance can also inhibit pyruvate dehyrogenase, so keeping my blood sugar and insulin in balance seems to help.
Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine? This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=AbstractHave taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.
So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!
PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.
Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.
Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!
Ray
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:13:44
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
Hi Ray,
Overwhelmed or bored? I'm totally amazed and fascinated! Some of it is over my head at this point in my exploration but I'm just blown away by the amount of detailed information you've managed to find out about yourself and brain fog and impart to us here.
I have been wanting to get a complete set of tests done by a holistic doctor for quite a while now but haven't been able to afford it. The doctor I want to see uses Great Smokies Lab as well. Now I'm even more certain that's a step I need to take.
I have some comments and questions sprinkled throughout your post if you wouldn't mind answering them.
> Hi Kara and all,
>
> Came across your posts on a google search as I'm a fellow sufferer of brain fog.
>
> Find Dr Pall's theory on peroxynitrite and mitochondrial dysfunction relevant to me as anything that helps reduce peroxynitrite or superoxide seems to help. Have started taking carnosine recently to help in mopping up products of mitochondrial membrane damage (4 hydroxynonenal) and help balance cellular pH. Also taking lipothiamine (thiamine + alpha lipoic acid) - one of the few B1 supplements I can tolerate, I feel quite ill on most thiamines like thiamine HCl in a lot of multiples.
>
> I've got a feeling that the enzyme pyruvate dehydrogenase in the kreb's cycle is a problem, so getting a good balance of B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and alpha lipoic acid is important for me, but taking a B complex is a nightmare, and I just have to juggle the balance. At the moment I'm fine with lipothiamine and niacinamide, but have previously taken R5P, P5P, and pantethine. I have to avoid things that damage either the enzyme or B1 such as alcohol, pesticides and heavy metals. Insulin resistance can also inhibit pyruvate dehyrogenase, so keeping my blood sugar and insulin in balance seems to help.Fortunately I am able to tolerate all of the B vitamins and have been taking them fairly regularly. I think I may need to take them in better proportion though. What is R5P?
> Don't do that well with NAC alone but find thiodox by allergy research works well - I had a liver genetic test done by great smokies labs and I have a null gene for one of my glutathione enzymes.
That's so amazing to me that your test was able to show this. I hadn't realized that the tests were so far evolved. I also can tolerate NAC and was taking it regularly for awhile. It's one of those supplements for me that I'm sure is doing good things but I can't tell in terms of seing effects.
> Don't do that well with methionine alone but do well when I combine it with lysine - wonder if it's helping make carnitine? TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!I have methionine here at home that I should finish up. Again, I couldn't tell any difference when taking it. Perhaps I should try it with lysine. Then when those are used up, I'll switch to TMG and B12 as I'm sure that would be a better overall combination.
> Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine? This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=AbstractI only feel a little bit of a stimulation on DLPA which I attributed to PEA but I didn't find that helped my depression or that I was able to concentrate better. I may not have been taking enough though or perhaps I do need to experiment with Norival and niacinamide. Thanks for the abstract. I'll read it after I send this message to you.
> Have taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
Good suggestion.
> I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.
>
> So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!What amount of DLPA do you take? Do you feel at all wired or hyper on that dose or maybe just mildly stimulated? I'm trying to find solutions right now that won't tax my adrenal glands as I fear I have adrenal fatigue.
> PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.
Recently I've been feeling somewhat better and I wasn't sure why. The changes I made were adding maca and extra magnesium to my routine. The only other thing I changed was adding chromium although that was at least a couple of weeks back. I didn't see any change soon enough with the chromium and so never thought it could explain my improvement but now that I read your last paragraph, I'm wondering. Could it take at least two weeks to see it's effects? I'm definitely going to check out the Venocap herbs by Thorne Research. Thanks for the tip.
> Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.Hmmmm. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis so I bet the above pertains to me as well. If you don't mind what might be a dumb question: How does one oppose expression of interleukin 1?
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex),Are you using "hyper-ex" to mean hypericin, hypericum or hyperforin? That's interesting to me that SJW helped you. Since it's more serotonergic, I don't generally associate it with helping with brain fog. Quite the contrary in fact.
>especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too? Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too).
I guess that might explain it.
For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!Where do you get the two things you just mentioned? I have Monolaurin at home to try for immune support. It's a monoglyceride that's supposed to have anti-microbial properties. I haven't given it much of a trial yet though.
> Ray
>Also, I'm curious as to whether you read most or all of that long thread we had going here on brain fog. Sometimes we'd include some silliness as well as a lot of personal information in the posts. I wonder if all of that made it into the archives.
Thanks again for all of that valuable information! Glad to hear from a fellow sufferer who has made so much progress!!
Kara
Posted by raybakes on September 7, 2004, at 11:20:35
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:13:44
Hi Kara,
Thanks for reply, seems so much to say, but here it goes!
>I have been wanting to get a complete set of >tests done by a holistic doctor for quite a >while now but haven't been able to afford it. >The doctor I want to see uses Great Smokies Lab >as well. Now I'm even more certain that's a step >I need to take.I didn't find the normal great smokies tests showed anything for me - the liver, stool and hair analysis all looked normal - it was their genovations genetic tests that were quite helpful - if you wanted them to test for interleukin RN or RA you might have to ask as sometimes they don't have the right reagents in to test for it.
>Fortunately I am able to tolerate all of the B vitamins and have been taking them fairly regularly. I think I may need to take them in better proportion though. What is R5P?R5P is riboflavin 5 phosphate, I seem to do better on the more active forms of B vitamin. If I don't feel the benefit of something, I tend not to take it, but have been quite lucky that I am sensitive, even to holding supplements. Riboflavin is important in glutathione metabolism. Came across something about B2 and thyroid.
B Complex Vitamins
Riboflavin. The universal redox coenzyme, flavinadenine dinucleotide FAD, functions as a redox agentin the oxidation of succinate by mitochondria, and as acofactor for cytochrome P450 detoxication enzymes. Thyroid hormone status is reported to be sensitive to riboflavin status. Female acute psychiatric patients with riboflavin deficiency had significantly lower thyroxine levels. Drug exposure did not correlate with thyroxine levels (13). Many factors affect brain function and the endocrine system and psychiatric problems undoubtedly involve a variety of biochemical pathways
>I have methionine here at home that I should finish up. Again, I couldn't tell any difference when taking it. Perhaps I should try it with lysine. Then when those are used up, I'll switch to TMG and B12 as I'm sure that would be a better overall combination.I'm interested in methionine because of cell membrane phospholipids requiring methylation and also genetic switching. There are some reports about autoimmune disease sufferers not being able to switch off inflammatory genes, so am interested in what nutrition might do it. Arginine and lysine residues on parts of the DNA called histones are either methylated, acetylated or phosphorylated. Vitamin A seems important in genetic swtiching (seems to be better derived form fish oil) and butyrate seems to help too, but making sure there's enough methyl donors, sufficient acetyl CoA, and energy for phosphorylation, seems important too...today I bought some lutein extract from marigold, and have found that reduces my fog too - some references to immune system gentic balancing too. See abstract below for methylation...
DNA methylation and autoimmune disease.
>I only feel a little bit of a stimulation on DLPA which I attributed to PEA but I didn't find that helped my depression or that I was able to concentrate better. I may not have been taking enough though or perhaps I do need to experiment with Norival and niacinamide. Thanks for the abstract. I'll read it after I send this message to you.
I have been taking 500mg of DLPA and it feels great (and the lutein is now feeling pretty good too!), but as I said, last year it was giving me a massive headache and I felt like I wanted to shout and scream too - was wary of taking it again! Not sure why it is wonderful now but did notice it felt even better when I took lipothiamine. Catecholamines can be detoxified through methylation and sulphation - doesn't dopamine get transported as dopamine sulphate?
>What amount of DLPA do you take? Do you feel at all wired or hyper on that dose or maybe just mildly stimulated? I'm trying to find solutions right now that won't tax my adrenal glands as I fear I have adrenal fatigue.Don't know what your TSH is like, but found some research that TSH can activate the adrenals - think the theory was that it's a compensation by the adrenals to support energy levels when the thyroid is underactive.
>Recently I've been feeling somewhat better and I wasn't sure why. The changes I made were adding maca and extra magnesium to my routine. The only other thing I changed was adding chromium although that was at least a couple of weeks back. I didn't see any change soon enough with the chromium and so never thought it could explain my improvement but now that I read your last paragraph, I'm wondering. Could it take at least two weeks to see it's effects? I'm definitely going to check out the Venocap herbs by Thorne Research. Thanks for the tip.
haven't looked into maca, how does it feel for you? Find working on the insulin receptor more effective for me than working on glucose tolerance with chromium - EPA/DHA, alpha lipoic acid, glutathione, soluble fibre and gymnema sylvestre/fenugreek are what seem to work OK. Some recent research found that insulin resistance pushed glycogen to cell surfaces and encouraged candida growth.
Hmmmm. I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis so I bet the above pertains to me as well. If you don't mind what might be a dumb question: How does one oppose expression of interleukin 1?
No, nothing's dumb! The genetic balancing I mentioned before is one way I'm playing and another is inhibiting it's effect on cell membrane damage via the enzyme PLA2 (phospholipase A2) interleukin 1 triggers the release of PLA2, PLA2 breaks down cell membranes, releasing arachidonic acid, and starts an inflammatory cascade. EPA inhibits PLA2, apparently more effectively on it's own than with DHA. Have found I get on better with distilled fish oils, that get rid of toxic metal and residual arachidonic acid.
>Are you using "hyper-ex" to mean hypericin, hypericum or hyperforin? That's interesting to me that SJW helped you. Since it's more serotonergic, I don't generally associate it with helping with brain fog. Quite the contrary in fact.
Just looked, Thorne's hyper-ex is hypericum. I did take it for it's detoxification ability, so wasn't thinking how it worked with serotonin. Not sure how broad SJW's action is on cytochrome p450 enzymes, does it extend to cytochromes in the mitochondria and to heme too?
Found an article on depression and inflammation - that seems to be the core of what has helped me, doing everything I can to get inflammation down!
also found this with interleukin 1 and it's possible link with hashimoto's
http://www.annalsnyas.org/cgi/content/abstract/876/1/221
>Where do you get the two things you just mentioned? I have Monolaurin at home to try for immune support. It's a monoglyceride that's supposed to have anti-microbial properties. I haven't given it much of a trial yet though.
MCT is from thorne and it's medium chain diglycerides, including lauric acid, so might have a similar effect to monolaurin. There's a lot of debate on different websites as to whether MCT or coconut oil that it's derived from boosts or protects the thyroid. It does boost the metabolism - if that is by supporting the thyroid, I'm not sure. Lactoferrin I get from Jarrow, but cardiovascular research do it too. I think it works by pulling iron into a transport protein so that it's unavailable to bacteria and yeasts - some friends have used IP6 to fight their infections but it made them anaemic! Looking at the abstract below, lactoferrin is also anti inflammatory and describes a different mechanism for it's action..
Antimicrobial and immunoregulatory functions of lactoferrin and its potential therapeutic application.
>Also, I'm curious as to whether you read most or all of that long thread we had going here on brain fog. Sometimes we'd include some silliness as well as a lot of personal information in the posts. I wonder if all of that made it into the archives.
Didn't read all the thread....started to, but it seemed like I'd never get to the bottom!
Thanks for your comments, hope mine make some sense!Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 13:19:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by simus on July 28, 2004, at 15:24:51
Hi Kara, was thinking about interleukin 1 and autoimmune disease again and remembered something about interleukin 1 stimulating ACTH and catecholamine release, overriding the normal feedback mechanisms. I was wondering if interleukin 1 pushes a person into adrenal exhaustion - and also if giving phenylalanine or tyrosine to such a person will be like adding fuel to a fire? Just trying to understand why my reaction to phenylalanine and tyrosine is so different now.
Anyway, here's an abstract about interleukin 1 and the catecholamines...
interleukin-1 alpha and -beta stimulate adrenocorticotropin and catecholamine release
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/125/6/3096
Posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 16:19:58
In reply to Supplements for brain fog?, posted by KaraS on June 23, 2004, at 23:06:51
Hi Kara, haven't quite got the hang of posting, think I might have replied to the wrong people!
Ray
Posted by KaraS on September 8, 2004, at 16:42:41
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 16:19:58
> Hi Kara, haven't quite got the hang of posting, think I might have replied to the wrong people!
>
> RayHi Ray,
I don't have time now to answer your posts. Ironically, though you mistakenly sent your last message to Larry, he's actually the one who could answer it. In fact, most of your questions he'd be the one to answer them. He knows a lot more than I do (as do you). I'm sure he'll get back to you soon. At any rate, I've enjoyed reading your posts and will reply more later.Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 5, 2004, at 13:19:05
> TMG and B12 are both excellent, but the B12 from intensive nutrition works best - other B12s have made me feel awful!
This sort of thing mystifies me. I feel awful with some brands of B12, as well. I wish I had access to chromatography equipment. I'd like to get to the bottom of this.
> Tried DLPA a couple of years ago and felt like my head was going to explode! But in the last few weeks since I've been taking norival (n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin that you mention) and niacinamide, I now feel on top of the world if I take DLPA. I wonder if the niacinamide and biopterin are helping phenylalanine hydroxylase so I can now metabolise l-phenylalanine?
I suppose that's a possible explanation.
> This abstract looks interesting, and might explain why I felt so awful with the phenylalanine initially - it might have been blocking my tyrosine and tryptophan transport into my neurons?
That effect is partially mediated by low blood insulin. If you're hyperglycemic.....
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3540926&dopt=Abstract
The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
> Have taken tyrosine before, and felt nothing, n-acetyl tyrosine and biopterin feels great though. Might try Jarrow's n-acetyl tyrosine without biopterin to feel the difference, unless anyone know's where you can get biopterin alone.
>
> I know foilc acid and biopterin are related and share activating enzymes (methyl tetrahydrobiopterin and methyl tetrahydrofolate use the same enzyme I think) but I'm not sure if there's any overlap in their function - it doesn't seem to feel that way when I've experimented.Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
> So now I feel excellent when I take DLPA and I hope it stays that way, as I know from experience that crashes are never far away! I've heard that D-phenylalanine blocks the degradation of endorphins - I took some mistletoe tincture, also claimed to boost endorphins, and got a similar feeling too - although, too much and I got that 'wired/hyper' feeling. What I find with the DLPA is that parts of my brain 'light up', and pain in my abdominal area reduces. Also my skin feels more tingly, alive and sensitive, but none of that happened when I took it before!Hmmmm.....I'll be think about this.....
> PARP (poly ADPribose polymerase) seems to be important to me too, the DNA repair enzyme triggered by superoxide/peroxynitrite. Hopefully the niacinamide reduces it's energy sapping effect - but I also do well on other peroxynitrite/superoxide quenchers such as blueberries, grape seed and do very well on the herbs in venocap by thorne research - maybe venocap protects blood vessels by, in part, inhibiting the free radicals that trigger PARP? There's quite a few abstracts on PARP and it's involvement in blood vessel and neural dysfuntion in diabetes.I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
> Also had great smokies immune genetic profile done, and I have a polymorphisms in my interleukin 1 receptor antagonist gene! It means that I'm prone to chronic inflammation from unopposed expression of interleukin 1 - seems people with autoimmune disease frequently have this polymorphism. High levels of interleukin 1 can trigger free radical production and all the mitochondrial problems mentioned before.I'm really glad you have pointed this out. Sometimes I just forget some key issues, and this is clearly one of those.
> Sorry, I'm going on a bit! Not much more to go! Do well on thorne's st john's wort (hyper-ex), especially if I've eaten too many oranges. Think my cyp3A4 enzyme can be low sometimes, does it work on hydroxylase enzymes too?Not that I'm aware of. It does induce p-glycoprotein.....oh, as you say....
> Interested that it also increases p-glycoprotein, and so helps with glutathione transport across cell membranes (and other conjugates too). For infection, I do well with lactoferrin, medium chain triglycerides and citricidin.....phew, hope you're not overwhelmed or bored!
>
> RayKeep talking, dude.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 9, 2004, at 10:33:51
Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
>The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..
Depression and biopterin
Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdfBiopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'
>I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
Thanks,
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 10, 2004, at 5:02:56
> Hi Larry, I've looked up a bit more about biotpterin, thought you might be interested...
Oh, yeah. I like it when someone shows me where I'm missing pieces of the puzzle.
> >The phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency syndrome is also know as PKU. I have never heard of an acquired form of PKU. <shrug>
>
> I think I may have a reduced function of phenylalanine hydroxylase, that may behave like PKU when I'm low in the co-factors like biopterin and NADPH - here's some abstracts that may explain..How do you respond to tyrosine? The very same cofactors apply there, as well.
> Depression and biopterin
>
> Mental illness in mild PKU responds to biopterin
> http://www.bh4.org/pdf/koch.pdf
>
> Biopterin responsive phenylalanine hydroxylase deficiency.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14726806I love those "light-bulb moments". <grin> It's starting to make sense to me, why some people respond better to 5-HTP than to trytophan. They're already past the hydroxylase "bottleneck". I didn't even know there was such an enzymatic restriction, even in theory. Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
http://jms.ndmctsgh.edu.tw/PDF/2203095.pdf
If you paste the title of the following into google, and search with the quotation marks, you'll come to a full-text link (registration required, but free):
FACTA UNIVERSITATIS
Series: Medicine and Biology Vol.11, No 2, 2004, pp. 49 - 54 UC 577+61BIOCHEMICAL FUNCTIONS AND CLINICAL IMPORTANCE OF UNCONJUGATED PTERIDINES
Gordana Bjelaković1, Tatjana Jevtović-Stoimenov1, Bojko Bjelaković2, Ivana Stojanović1 1Institute of Biochemistry, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš 2Clinic of Pediatrics, Faculty of Medicine, University of Niš, Serbia and Montenegro
Summary. Tetrahydrobiopterine (BH4) and its relatives are classified as unconjugated pteridines or pterins distinguishing them from the folates. BH4 is not a vitamin for mammals, since they can synthesize it. GTP is the major precursor of atoms in the pterin nucleus. The initial step in this pathway is conversion of GTP to D-erythro-7, 8-dihydroneopterin triphosphate, a reaction catalyzed by the enzyme GTP-cyclohydrolase I (EC 3.5.4.16; GTP-CH). There are many important metabolic functions of BH4: it is a crucial cofactor in hydroxylation reactions of phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophane. The finding of BH4 participation in monoaminergic neurotransmitter metabolism regulation contributed to the knowledge of atipic neurological symptoms in some kinds of "phenylketonuric" children. As a cofactor of nitric oxide syntheses BH4 is a crucial metabolite involved in physiological function of cardiovascular system. The literature data confirm that the BH4 depletion is crucial in the control of both NO and superoxide generation (H2O2), synthesized by endothelial NOS isoforms, and consequently the formation of cell toxic peroxynitrite (ONOO −). Relationships between biosynthesis of BH4 and guanine nucleotide regulatory proteins (G proteins) or GTP-binding proteins taking part in protein synthesis has to be explained. The idea that all oxidases using molecular oxygen and producing H2O2 need BH4 appears rather relevant and it may explain more successfully the polyamine oxidase activity (PAO) in the regulation of polyamine metabolism.
> >Folate is a pro-cofactor. Folate is inactive. It is modified by various enzymes to produce activated forms, including biopterins and MTHF. Defects in the activating enzymes lead to functional defects in folate metabolism which are not ameliorated by folate supplementation.
>
> Not sure about folate being a substrate for biopterin - I heard several people say it is, but some articles say it's synthesized from GTP....
>
> 'An enzyme (dihydrobiopterin synthetase), involved in the synthesis of pterins from GTP has been implicated in this disorder (see Fig. 3). [Note that, in contrast to similar coenzymes (flavins and folates), biopterin can be synthesized by humans and is, therefore, not derived from a vitamin.]'Quite correct, upon closer examination. There was once thought to be an interchange between these two systems, probably because folate can serve as a less efficient cofactor for e.g. NO-synthase. It was believed that shunting between folate and H4-biopterin must be taking place. I see that is not the case. The death of another factoid. (Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
> >I see no mention of selenium. It's a pretty important part of quenching this free-radical cascade.
>
> I do take selenium in thiodox from allergy research - it has both riboflavin and selenium to help reduce glutathione - I don't seem to do that well with selenium alone.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RayOK, the problem I see with biopterin defects (two real possibilities, one in de novo synthesis, the other in recycling of H2B back to H4B), is that H4B is both very poorly absorbed from the gut (some estimates at about 12%), and does not readily cross the blood-brain barrier. Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
Thanks for joining our little world, dude. Brains tend to work in synergy (sum greater than the parts), IMHO.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 10, 2004, at 9:03:49
Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
>Thing is, if they respond to 5-HTP, they may also need l-DOPA, to get past the corresponding tyrosine hydroxylase inefficiency.
Yes that sounds a good idea, although I seem to be doing amazingly well just upregulating the enzymes. Have you heard about the kynurenine pathway that breaks down tryptophan to niacin? Just wonder if people with autoimmune disease degrade a lot of tryptophan before it can get to 5-HTP as interferon gamma seems to trigger that pathway. It's interesting that this pathway has to be triggered in pregnancy, to stop the mother's immmune system rejecting the baby. Tryptophan metabolites at the start of the pathway seem to be neuroprotective, but as the pathway nears niacin, metabolites like quinolinic acid are highly neurotoxic - seems like niacin/naicinamide can provide negative feedback to this pathway.
>(Factoid was coined by a friend of mine, to describe a factual truth assumed by most people, which upon closer examination, does not stand up to scrutiny.)
What a great word....might use it myself now too!!
how about Presidentoid?! Ooops that's a bit poilitical... but as I'm from the UK, maybe i should say Blairoid!>Methinks that one of my own responsivities to supps, that of Enada NADH, is that it may not only re-energize my ailing mitochondria, but it may also give my H2B --> H4B recycling a major boost. If so, then neurotransmitter precursor loading with NADH might be an effective augment. Experiment requires purchase of supps, though.
I seem to do better on niacinamide rather than NADH - if fact I feel very little with NADH, which is surprising considering how important it is to the pathways we've been discussing. I'm guessing that maybe I need the large dose of niacinamide to inhibit the parp molecule I mentioned before. Parp seems to be involved in the pathogenesis of many diseases - for example this abstract finds that inhibiting parp can stop homocysteine induced blood vessel damage.
'Poly(ADP-Ribose) Polymerase Inhibition Prevents Homocysteine-Induced Endothelial Dysfunction in the Isolated Rat Aorta.'
and this is interesting too...
Thanks,
Ray
Posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by KaraS on September 8, 2004, at 16:42:41
Hi Kara,
Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » Larry Hoover, posted by raybakes on September 12, 2004, at 4:18:33
> Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
Minds interacting like this....priceless.
I may have overstressed myself. I may be going through a cyclical slump. I may have had an adverse reaction to green tea. I may be.....????
I just want to say that my brain went on holiday, and it is coming back, slowly. Some posts to this board have occurred, but they are the easy ones for me. The ones where I can answer blind-folded, almost.
I hope that people retain their interest in the various threads. I have. I just have to be patient with myself.
Back soon.
Lar
Posted by karaS on September 22, 2004, at 10:06:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » KaraS, posted by raybakes on September 22, 2004, at 4:52:21
> Hi Kara,
>
> Just been reading a book called "children with starving brains" about the chemisty of autism spectrum disorders. One part of the book mentions an enzyme called DPP IV (available as a supplement from kirkman labs), involved in regulation of the immune and nervous system, and particularly helpful in autoimmunity and depression. Apparently mercury, gluten from wheat and casein from milk can bind DPP IV and trigger brain fog, inflammation and depression.
>
> I have bought some DPP IV and found it does have an anti depressive and head clearing effect for me - have you heard of it or know anyone else who has used it?
Raybakes,I have never heard of this before. It's fascinating especially since I have mercury fillings and Hashimoto's thyroiditis. I'll have to try this. Thanks so much for the heads-up!
Kara
Posted by karaS on September 22, 2004, at 10:07:38
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
> > Hi Larry, thanks for replying, it's great that a little debate with you has helped me understand what's going on with me a whole lot more!
>
> Minds interacting like this....priceless.
>
> I may have overstressed myself. I may be going through a cyclical slump. I may have had an adverse reaction to green tea. I may be.....????
>
> I just want to say that my brain went on holiday, and it is coming back, slowly. Some posts to this board have occurred, but they are the easy ones for me. The ones where I can answer blind-folded, almost.
>
> I hope that people retain their interest in the various threads. I have. I just have to be patient with myself.
>
> Back soon.
>
> Lar
We understand sweetie - just take care of yourself.Kara
Posted by raybakes on September 23, 2004, at 2:51:03
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog? » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on September 22, 2004, at 9:55:03
Hope your feeling better soon Larry!
Posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 4:47:00
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry, posted by raybakes on September 8, 2004, at 13:19:49
Hi Ray,
I've got hashimotos too(anti TPO, Anti TG) ..and probably a bit more on the autoimmune side going on.(not tested)I think I need more ACTH. I'm sorry but I get lost trying to follow most of these articles. I see that interleukin 1? stimulates ACTH possibly?
Now what is interleukin 1.?
I find tyrosine seems to give me lots of dopamine I think. I know I can deaden tooth pain from a hole in a tooth completely with just 500mg tyrosine a day (repeatedly) and other aches in body.
I've also found out (about a year ago) that anesthetic , like prilocaine for dental work has NIL effect if no adrenaline is added..apparently I don't vasoconstrict?Bit about me ...I'm on time released thyroid meds and occasionally cortisol(small amts for a few days) to deaden inflammation when I feel overhigh antibody activity, or if I get too stressed and can't cope with a situation. I don't seem to be able to automatically produce the needed cortisol, I think. (exhausted adrenals probably)
Any ideas if tyosine would produce IL1? or if thyroid meds like synthetic T4 would make things worse...I am trialling adding in T4 to my Armour?
Sorry, I'm lost here
Jan
Posted by raybakes on September 24, 2004, at 7:02:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for brain fog?- Larry » raybakes, posted by tealady on September 24, 2004, at 4:47:00
Hi Jan, looked up a few things for you to read!
>I've got hashimotos too(anti TPO, Anti TG) ..and probably a bit more on the autoimmune side going on.(not tested)
found this abstract explaining that interleukin 1 lowers TG...
http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/138/5/2043
I think I need more ACTH. I'm sorry but I get lost trying to follow most of these articles. I see that interleukin 1? stimulates ACTH possibly?
Now what is interleukin 1.?Interleukin 1 is a pro-inflammatory cytokine (messenger of the immune system). In autoimmune disease it seems likely that excessive interleukin 1 can overdrive the adrenals to exhaustion. I have a genetic error in my interleukin 1ra gene that would naturally inhibit IL 1. Trying to drive the adrenals even harder with more ACTH when they're exhausted might not be a good idea!
>I find tyrosine seems to give me lots of dopamine I think. I know I can deaden tooth pain from a hole in a tooth completely with just 500mg tyrosine a day (repeatedly) and other aches in body.
I've also found out (about a year ago) that anesthetic , like prilocaine for dental work has NIL effect if no adrenaline is added..apparently I don't vasoconstrict?Tyrosine is also the precursor to T4 and T3, T4 has four iodines added, and T3 has four added and one taken away. So I wonder if the tyrosine gives your thyroid a boost...heres a bit about thyroid and pain threshold..
"A subset of patients with thyroid hormone deficiency caused by Hashimoto's has a lowered pain threshold. The susceptible patient perceives as painful stimuli that aren't painful to other people. The pain results from too little thyroid hormone regulation of certain nerve cells. Some of the cells, mainly in her spinal cord, when under-regulated by thyroid hormone, release excess amounts of "substance P." The excess substance P then amplifies the transmission of "pain" impulses in the central nervous system."
>Any ideas if tyosine would produce IL1?
don't think so, although IL1 does seem to have a tyrosine related receptor.
>or if thyroid meds like synthetic T4 would make things worse...I am trialling adding in T4 to my Armour?
Found this abstract that says that interleukin 1 can inhibit the conversion of T4 to the more active T3, so if interleukin 1 is part of your problem adding T4 may not be of much benefit - selenium is important for the conversion, and also stops the production of reverse T3, which antagonizes T3...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7627812
>Sorry, I'm lost here,I get lost frequently, so just try to absorb stuff by osmosis! When I've seen things written a few times, it slowly starts to make sense!
Ray
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