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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 117. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2006, at 19:21:03
In reply to Got a question, posted by happyflower on June 23, 2006, at 15:17:35
> If a post is uncivil or blocked, why is still left on the boards?
Mainly so people who are new can get an accurate idea of what it's like here.
Bob
Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:41:09
In reply to Re: why posts are still left, posted by Dr. Bob on June 25, 2006, at 19:21:03
> > If a post is uncivil or blocked, why is still left on the boards?
>
> Mainly so people who are new can get an accurate idea of what it's like here.Dr. Bob, I mean no disrespect, but isn't that idea like being a racist torwards a person so as a father you can show your children what it is?Isn't your explaination of the rules enough for the new people?
It just seems to me that if we are going to go as far as blocking people, the post should be deleted if it warrents such actions.And also do you want the new people to judge our site by the actions of a few?
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2006, at 11:45:38
In reply to Re: why posts are still left » Dr. Bob, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 10:41:09
> isn't that idea like being a racist torwards a person so as a father you can show your children what it is?
I don't think so. That would be analogous to posting something uncivil on purpose. That's different than not deleting something that's already been posted.
> And also do you want the new people to judge our site by the actions of a few?
I think it should be up to them to decide how they want to judge. For some people, the actions of a few might make a difference?
Bob
Posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 12:46:38
In reply to Re: why posts are still left, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2006, at 11:45:38
> > isn't that idea like being a racist torwards a person so as a father you can show your children what it is?
>
> I don't think so. That would be analogous to posting something uncivil on purpose. That's different than not deleting something that's already been posted.
>So are you saying that when someone posts something uncivil that they didn't know what they were saying? I could see this if we weren't adults.
I know it is your site, but I was wondering if I posted something REALLY uncivil, would you want that to be a part of your site? (not that I am intend to do that)
Maybe just maybe if uncivil posts were subject to be deleted, some individuals might not post them. But if you know you can in a sense be offensive and uncivil without anything happening, you can do the damage and only take a small hand slaping of a block for a awhile. I guess I am more about prevention than doing something about it after the fact. Just a thought, nothing personal Dr. Bob. Unless it is like TV, you get more ratings when things get heated. Just kidding. LOL
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2006, at 22:32:39
In reply to Re: why posts are still left » Dr. Bob, posted by happyflower on June 28, 2006, at 12:46:38
> So are you saying that when someone posts something uncivil that they didn't know what they were saying?
No, that's not what I'm saying.
> I know it is your site, but I was wondering if I posted something REALLY uncivil, would you want that to be a part of your site?
No, I'd prefer for that not to be here.
> Maybe just maybe if uncivil posts were subject to be deleted, some individuals might not post them.
Maybe...
> But if you know you can in a sense be offensive and uncivil without anything happening, you can do the damage and only take a small hand slaping of a block for a awhile.
Yes -- for a while.
> I guess I am more about prevention than doing something about it after the fact.
Prevention would be ideal, but deleting posts after the fact isn't prevention, either...
Bob
Posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:48:20
In reply to Re: why posts are still left, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2006, at 22:32:39
its really annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Jost on June 29, 2006, at 11:35:38
In reply to Sigh, Bob, your back to your one liners AND » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on June 29, 2006, at 1:48:20
okay, I'm going to nitpick> Happyflower said that deleting uncivil posts would tend to discourage people from posting later uncivil things. Now I don't happen to agree with that (I don't necessarily disagree, though)-- it could cut the other way, just as easily.
So, it's not that deletion per se prevents the past incivility, but future incivility (in her argument)-- so you can't really answer her argument by saying that deleting doesn't prevent the post from having been posted.
The question was whether it would prevent others from posting later.
If you see what I mean...
Anyway. My other thought is that on the other MBs I've frequented (in the past--not psychology-related), I was able to delete, or at least substantively revise posts after having posted them.
One thing I really like about Pbabble is that you can really see how your post reads before committing to posting it (which you couldn't on the other sites, you could only see this small box). So you get a much clearer sense of what you're saying (which is interesting in itself) and can make better decisions about wanting to go through with it (it's a commitment after preliminary submission).
On the other hand, sometimes I was intemperate--or more intemperate than I wanted to be-- so I would either restate or delete occasionally, a few minutes, or even an hour after posting. (of course, you have to be careful that no one has replied--or, if someone has, that you explain that they're responding to something you'd rather not leave up--which of course is your choice, but otherwise they look rather odd.) Then I didn't feel like a bad person for having stated things in a cutting or huffy way, or having somewhat euphemistically (but nonetheless) derogated someone. Which I have a tendency to do.
I think it's interesting that Bob has set it up this way. I like the permanency, in a way, because it creates an amazing historical record of truth, not made nicer or glossed over. I especially like the idea that this accepts and includes "bad" impulses and expressions--as if saying that we can all get carried away, and say mean things, and yet we'ere basically accepted as part of the community--and we can accept this about one another, without having to deny or erase it--so this part of all of us is acknowledged,, even though it's important to try not to act on the impulse.
On the other hand, I have the feeling I'm going to eventually get blocked. Because I'll lose my temper about something someday, I'm sure. And I might very well have regretted what I said, perhaps even as soon as thirty seconds after I said it. That prospect I don't like.
Jost
Posted by Deneb on June 29, 2006, at 22:16:28
In reply to Re: Sigh, Bob, your back to your one liners AND, posted by Jost on June 29, 2006, at 11:35:38
> I think it's interesting that Bob has set it up this way. I like the permanency, in a way, because it creates an amazing historical record of truth, not made nicer or glossed over. I especially like the idea that this accepts and includes "bad" impulses and expressions--as if saying that we can all get carried away, and say mean things, and yet we'ere basically accepted as part of the community--and we can accept this about one another, without having to deny or erase it--so this part of all of us is acknowledged,, even though it's important to try not to act on the impulse.
I agree! I like the permanency. I like how people can see the good and bad in us. I like how things are out in the open.
Deneb*
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 30, 2006, at 5:38:53
In reply to Re: Sigh, Bob, your back to your one liners AND, posted by Jost on June 29, 2006, at 11:35:38
> The question was whether it would prevent others from posting later.
>
> If you see what I mean...Ah, now I see. That's true, if something's deleted, you don't have to worry about it provoking people, but OTOH not deleting it
> > offers the advantages of clarifying the limits for others, modeling conflict resolution, diminishing any paranoia about activity "behind the scenes," and allowing others to contribute to the process.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/research.html#Best> Anyway. My other thought is that on the other MBs I've frequented (in the past--not psychology-related), I was able to delete, or at least substantively revise posts after having posted them.
That's come up here before and is on my to-do list, see:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20030404/msgs/224641.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20050823/msgs/546521.html> One thing I really like about Pbabble is that you can really see how your post reads before committing to posting it ... So you get a much clearer sense of what you're saying ... and can make better decisions about wanting to go through with it
Thanks, that's the idea.
> On the other hand, sometimes I was intemperate--or more intemperate than I wanted to be-- so I would either restate or delete occasionally, a few minutes, or even an hour after posting. (of course, you have to be careful that no one has replied--or, if someone has, that you explain that they're responding to something you'd rather not leave up--which of course is your choice, but otherwise they look rather odd.) Then I didn't feel like a bad person for having stated things in a cutting or huffy way, or having somewhat euphemistically (but nonetheless) derogated someone.
I understand. But people can go back and apologize even if they can't (yet) restate or delete...
> I think it's interesting that Bob has set it up this way. I like the permanency, in a way, because it creates an amazing historical record of truth, not made nicer or glossed over. I especially like the idea that this accepts and includes "bad" impulses and expressions--as if saying that we can all get carried away, and say mean things, and yet we'ere basically accepted as part of the community--and we can accept this about one another, without having to deny or erase it--so this part of all of us is acknowledged,, even though it's important to try not to act on the impulse.
Again, thanks, that's the idea.
> On the other hand, I have the feeling I'm going to eventually get blocked. Because I'll lose my temper about something someday, I'm sure. And I might very well have regretted what I said, perhaps even as soon as thirty seconds after I said it. That prospect I don't like.
Again, I understand. You might or might not eventually get blocked. Remember that it doesn't hurt to apologize. And that even if you do lose your temper, you're still basically accepted as part of the community. :-)
Bob
Posted by gardenergirl on June 30, 2006, at 8:33:41
In reply to Re: an amazing historical record of truth, posted by Dr. Bob on June 30, 2006, at 5:38:53
>And that even if you do lose your temper, you're still basically accepted as part of the community. :-)
Which is a good thing given my crankiness last night...
gg
Posted by Dinah on December 15, 2007, at 2:00:47
In reply to Re: Just 3 answers, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2007, at 16:03:27
> > 3. Is there a way to edit a post after i have sumbitted it?
>
> Not yet, but that's on my to-do list.
>
> BobI strenuously object.
Posted by 10derHeart on December 15, 2007, at 2:00:48
In reply to Re: Just 3 answers, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2007, at 16:06:13
I have serious doubts as well. I can't seem to wrap my head around any way where that would not be crazy-making for posters, deputies, etc.
The fact that doesn't happen here has long been one of my favorite things about Babble.
Posted by amigan on December 15, 2007, at 2:00:49
In reply to editing posts after submission, posted by 10derHeart on December 9, 2007, at 1:18:30
> I have serious doubts as well. I can't seem to wrap my head around any way where that would not be crazy-making for posters, deputies, etc.
>
> The fact that doesn't happen here has long been one of my favorite things about Babble.Yes, you are right on this. It could cause many problems in the normal flow of this board.
I was thinking about the possibility to edit your post, while nobody else has replied to it yet or after a limited amount of time passed after you did the post. How about this?
Posted by MidnightBlue on December 15, 2007, at 2:00:50
In reply to Re: Just 3 answers, posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2007, at 16:03:27
My two cents: it would be nice to have a narrow window, say maybe an hour? where you can edit a post. Anything longer would get confusing.
MB
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2009, at 16:52:56
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by amigan on December 15, 2007, at 2:00:49
> > I have serious doubts as well. I can't seem to wrap my head around any way where that would not be crazy-making for posters, deputies, etc.
> >
> > The fact that doesn't happen here has long been one of my favorite things about Babble.
>
> Yes, you are right on this. It could cause many problems in the normal flow of this board.
> I was thinking about the possibility to edit your post, while nobody else has replied to it yet or after a limited amount of time passed after you did the post. How about this?There were more requests for an edit function recently, so I've been thinking about this again.
Adding an edit function would be kind of a big project, but it occurred to me that another way to do this might be just to allow a post to be superseded by a revision. The revision would be a new post, starting with the old post as the "first draft", and would be added to the thread like any other new post. The original message would be replaced by a link to the revision (and not simply deleted).
As suggested before, it would only be an option for the most recent post in the thread. As with the latest babblemail setting, for the server to be able to know whether to offer the option, cookies would be required.
This would be a way to rephrase and to avoid, or at least lessen, hurt feelings. It would also give posters more control over what they post. More control can mean more mischief, but I think the pros may outweigh the cons. What do you all think?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2009, at 17:11:47
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2009, at 16:52:56
I dislike the idea. For the same reasons as before. How does it lessen bad feelings if only some people understand why they exist? It seems to me it would only lead to more bad feelings.
If you're going to rethink saying something unkind, it should be *before* a post is confirmed, not after people have had a chance to see it.
It's another way to support bullying on Babble.
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2009, at 17:27:29
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2009, at 16:52:56
If the revision is added to the thread without deleting the original, then how is it different from now?
And what earthly sense does it make to make it an option, unless it's an option to see the original rather than the revision. An option by poster to be able to revise? If someone doesn't wish to revise, they won't.
Are you trying to divert us from the last by offering a new outrage?
Posted by 10derHeart on November 22, 2009, at 18:14:13
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 22, 2009, at 17:27:29
I was asking myself exactly the same question.
Unfortunately. :-(
Posted by Nadezda on November 22, 2009, at 21:06:54
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 22, 2009, at 16:52:56
I'm not clear on what would result from this new option.
Would there be the full original post, with a link to the revised post, which would then amplify it and show that the poster had regrets or second thoughts?
Or would it, as the initial formulation seems to suggest, completely replace the original text with simply a link to a new text. This would show that there had been an original post, but not show what was in it. And if this is the case, where would this undeleted post reside? I don't understand where the original text would go if it's completely replace.
So if the second option is what you're suggesting, I don't quite follow it.
Nadezda
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2009, at 0:14:00
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Nadezda on November 22, 2009, at 21:06:54
> How does it lessen bad feelings if only some people understand why they exist? It seems to me it would only lead to more bad feelings.
>
> It's another way to support bullying on Babble.> An option by poster to be able to revise? If someone doesn't wish to revise, they won't.
>
> Dinah> I'm not clear on what would result from this new option.
>
> would it, as the initial formulation seems to suggest, completely replace the original text with simply a link to a new text. This would show that there had been an original post, but not show what was in it. And if this is the case, where would this undeleted post reside? I don't understand where the original text would go if it's completely replace.
>
> NadezdaYes, the original text would be completely replaced with a link. It would be deleted from the original post (but saved by the server somewhere). Parts of it might or might not be included in the new post. The original post would stay where it was originally posted. The new post would be posted right after it.
For example, the original post is 1234.html and says:
> You're offensive!
The poster decides to rephrase that. They open the post, their cookies show they're the original poster, and they're offered the option to revise it. They wish to, so they do. In the meantime, 3 posts have been posted elsewhere. The original post, 1234.html, becomes:
> revised, see: 1238.html
The new post is 1238.html and says:
> I feel offended!
That's an I-statement, so hopefully that avoids bad feelings if the other poster hasn't seen the original post yet and lessens them if they have.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2009, at 6:46:09
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2009, at 0:14:00
And say they have, and they have bad feelings, and they respond to what was posted in a civil but distressed manner while the other poster changes what they posted.
Now the insulted poster looks like a vindictive idiot. And worse yet, other posters would be saying to the original uncivil poster "oh you poor dear, I have no idea why anyone would be upset with you just for saying that you were offended." And you'd likely find it uncivil to say "Well, I was upset because the original post said xxxx."
Unless of course the victim stayed quiet about the injury.
I don't suppose anything I say will be of the smallest interest to you. Other than perhaps to cause you to do what I find offensive as quickly as possible. But I do not agree with what you are proposing. And to propose it for the reason you are proposing it, I find totally shocking. So that people can be uncivil and then fix it?
And you honestly believe that if I have read uncivil words, I'll feel better about them if they've been amended? I would likely feel better about them if the original poster apologized. I would feel nothing but contempt added to anger if the original poster, on top of insulting me, was cowardly enough to do so in such a way that they did not at least have the integrity to stand by their words and accept the consequences. Anger I can get over. Contempt, not so easily.
And they get to avoid consequences from you as well, so long as they hide their behavior fast enough.
You think this would make me feel *better* about them, or about you?!!!!!!!!!!!
I can't speak for anyone else. But better is not what I would feel.
I hope that others would help me out by preserving, one way or another, any words spoken against me in this manner. I'm not crazy about incivility, but I feel even more negatively about sneaky incivility.
I can't believe you're even suggesting this. It's like incivility in babblemail, only even worse, since posters can report incivility in a babblemail and hope to have that incivility acted upon. And they can keep their babblemail as proof.
This could lead to the same sort of taunting your buttons led to. Slightly better perhaps, since supposedly there would be a notice that the post was edited. But still enough to torment.
And that's not even an unintended byproduct of your proposal. It's the intent!
What has happened to you Dr. Bob?
Posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2009, at 10:22:06
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2009, at 0:14:00
I don't think it's an entirely bad idea, if there's a time limit. This would only partly be addressed by having the revision need to be the next post-- ie that you couldn't revise if anyone had posted a response. That seems a good restriction, but not enough.
I can't see revision per se, as bullying or sneaky incivility. People say things they regret--
Sometimes I, like (I assume) others, am on the verge of posting impulsively, and think better of it. The knowledge that I"ll regret my post can be buried under layers of emotion, though. It often surfaces later, and I'm very relieved that I didn't post. However, I can equally imagine having posted and then really regretting it. I don't see this as sneakiness, meanness, or bullying, but a natural and universal tendency to be defensive or threatened by the words of others who view things very differently.
So a time-limited chance to edit posts seems quite legitimate. Someone suggested an hour, but maybe a half hour would be better calibrated, since there's less opportunity for others to read the post, and then to find it's vanished. That does do odd things to one's sense of reality and is disruptive. So I'd prefer a limit of 20-30 minutes at most.
After that time frame, the post should stand, and an apology would make perfect sense. And of course, if someone responds, the post also should remain.
I can live with either system, and perhaps it should depend on how the community feels about it. There are many who haven't commented-- and perhaps their views could be solicited.
Nadezda
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2009, at 11:06:02
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2009, at 10:22:06
> And to propose it for the reason you are proposing it, I find totally shocking. So that people can be uncivil and then fix it?
>
> I hope that others would help me out by preserving, one way or another, any words spoken against me in this manner.
>
> Dinah> So a time-limited chance to edit posts seems quite legitimate. Someone suggested an hour, but maybe a half hour would be better calibrated, since there's less opportunity for others to read the post, and then to find it's vanished. That does do odd things to one's sense of reality and is disruptive. So I'd prefer a limit of 20-30 minutes at most.
>
> NadezdaRight, the idea is more fixing and less preserving.
I agree that a time limit makes sense, but I was thinking a longer one. Sometimes it helps to sleep on things, so maybe 24 hours?
The original post wouldn't just vanish. If someone read a post, came back later, and it was revised, how do you think that might that affect their sense of reality?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2009, at 11:11:47
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Nadezda on November 23, 2009, at 10:22:06
Real words can't be taken back.
People have to live with the consequences of having spoken them.
How is it fair to send the words out, have them hit their mark and draw blood, then have them disappear after the damage is done. And how is that not cowardly? If words are regretted after they are out there, an honest apology suits as well. We all say things we regret. But pretending that you can take them back with no consequences ignores the consequences to the person targeted. How is that right? No consequences to the uncivil, consequences to the person targeted.
I would make sure to instantly reply, if only a no message, to such remarks to me. And to save any remarks I saw to others, so that nothing can be denied in future.
That's what apologies are for. Or the "confirm post" step.
I can see people having lots of fun in the middle of the night. And tempting it would be too.
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2009, at 11:18:38
In reply to Re: editing posts after submission, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2009, at 11:06:02
And again, how is that fixing?
If I see incivility towards me (or towards someone else) that then disappears, does that make me feel better towards the uncivil? Or does it add to the insult?
I would hate anyone who did that to me, and hate Babble and you besides for allowing it done. While I wouldn't be inclined to hate either for mere incivility.
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