![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Nickengland on August 28, 2005, at 18:56:43
In reply to does it really? » Nickengland, posted by justyourlaugh on August 28, 2005, at 17:17:07
Did you mean, does it really get cleared up in the end? (from the header in the Subject?)
When you're willing to let go of what has happened, then I personally find that is when you are willing to let it go. Its an individual thing.... or when the Doctor is back and has given the PBC's or blocks then I notice that posters (myself included) tend to move on to other subjects.
I know your upset, i'm just responding to the subject line in you're post, I felt the actual message wasn't directed at me although the message was with my name.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by 10derHeart on August 28, 2005, at 19:40:02
In reply to Re: does it really? » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 18:15:10
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:04:20
In reply to Re: does it really?, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 18:19:51
> it concerns me how quick babblers can be to turn on someone...
>
> this is my perception and i hope i'm not being uncivil in saying so...
>
It may not be civil, but it disturbed me too.
Enough to change my feelings about babble permanently.
Posted by Nickengland on August 28, 2005, at 20:07:05
In reply to Re: does it really?, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 18:19:51
Hi Alexandra
>this is my perception and i hope i'm not being >uncivil in saying so...
>but...
I see what you're saying and I think its good to try and look at things from all angles. I do think though that in real life and this has some bearing on here too - People mirror people, in that when you meet someone or converse with someone who shows you lots of respect and happiness, you tend to mirror that right back to them. At least thats what i've found.
>lou
>so>ostracised.
>not by everyone.
>but by a fair few.In ways they were merely given the respect back that they gave to others, that might not seem right in an ideal world, but it happens on a regular basis and it can be hard to rise above that. I personally like to try and gain a deeper understanding of the particular posters you mention there, but at the same time realise that when they were posting messages in the nature that they were, it was obvious to me that they would not be spoken so highly of, for want of a better word.
People didn't go out of their way to ostracise, or criticise those posters, every action has a consequence and people were reacting to those particular actions, being the format of the nature of their posts which is why partly due to the fact they are not posting here today.
>Is that going to happen with deneb?
Only deneb and can answer that as she is in control of her actions which others will respond to. Good reputations are as easy to make as bad ones, and people can choose which direction they want to take.
>there has been an improvement.
>trigger warnings.
>they were hard enough to get - remember?
>but she did.
>she did.I don't think placing the word *trigger* counts though, as it doesn't give you the power to bend the rules so to speak and post things that you know will upset other posters. Improvement would be that suicide or death wasn't being taken so light heartly, but 4 months ago the same posts were happening and if their still happening today, I don't see improvement just because the word trigger is used, as the content is exactly the same.
I know where your coming from in your post Alexandra, and I think its admirable what you say in favour of deneb.
To keeps thing in context for myself, suicide ~ taking lightheartly, teehee'ing about suicide ~ which is death ~ which is a high pecentage of people with my particular illness and everyone elses here do die of and maybe feeling those thoughts when they read that message or knowing someone who has died of suicide.
>i bet deneb feels pretty bad about now.
That would mean that hopefully she now understands not to make light of suicide, lets hope it doesnt haopen again like it did 4 months ago.
>understand that a lot of people are upset...
For more than one particular reason too, with the nature of the posts.
>but my guess would be she is beating herself up far more than anybody here could.
She said she doesn't know why people would feel hurt that she is joking around discussing suicide, or words to that effect. The people here reminded of people they have lost in there life is alot more painful than what someone is feeling right now when they can't even understand the whole seriousness of suicide, or is she beating herself up because really she does understand it, but didnt quite get the reaction she was hoping for?
Whatever it was, I've read the posts and been reminded of a family member that died of suicide, I don't mind reading about suicide and i'm willing to discuss it and read posts about the subject.
I'm not too happy of the subject being laughed about though, no more than I would be of deaths from cancer, I don't find them amusing, deneb does, I be interested to know what she find amusing and how she doesnt understand why it is not serious.
Sorry to end with a negative note.
Kind regards
Nick
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:10:42
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:04:20
(((Gabbi)))
It is a tricky one... I know the issue of scapegoating has come up before... Though it might be considered uncivil to say that that is what is happening when particular people are implied...
Yeah. I think my feelings about Babble have changed significantly too. (That happened a while back) Seeing how quick people are to turn sometimes. Just like RL. Just like RL :-(
I guess on the upside...
People do stick up for the 'underdog' too.
And that is good to see.And some people...
Are just having a bad day.But the potential...
The potential that people have...
It scaires the f*ck out of me
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:12:21
In reply to Re: does it really? » justyourlaugh, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 18:15:10
>
> > how could you allow her to have that power?
>
> maybe thats something you want to ask yourselfI think certain subjects have the power, and it's good that they do. People should be not feel weak for being outraged, or hurt about certain things, otherwise we could brush off, injustice, racism, violence..
It's not a weakness to have those things affect you. When someone writes about certain topics, in a place where it is innappropriate to do so, without sanction, it is in fact giving them power to upset people.
If this were a support group for people who'd lost children to violence, and someone wrote a post making light of that, I don't think anyone would ask that they question why they are upset.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:29:36
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:12:21
> If this were a support group for people who'd lost children to violence, and someone wrote a post making light of that, I don't think anyone would ask that they question why they are upset.
I don't think anyone is asking anyone else to question why they are upset.
I'm just questioning the utility of turning against Deneb... Getting her blocked or whatever...
If this were a support group for people who'd lost children to violence... I'd agree 100%.
But it isn't. Its a site for people struggling with mental health issues.
And ones attitude towards death can be part of the very problem that has sent one here...
I'm not saying that all expressions of that are acceptable.
I'm just trying to render it understandable.
Nicer to help reduce bad feeling and work towards positive changes than to contemplate punishments / retaliations.
Nicer to feel that one has a certain degree of control (though not complete control) over how much one allows oneself to be affected by others.
It is too easy to rail at others for 'making us feel'.
Too easy to rail at others for not protecting us from our own emotional responses.
So very much harder to try and be sympathetic to all concerned.Its hard...
I don't want to fight
With anybodyHuman nature...
:-(
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:39:17
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:29:36
> > If this were a support group for people who'd lost children to violence, and someone wrote a post making light of that, I don't think anyone would ask that they question why they are upset.
>
> I don't think anyone is asking anyone else to question why they are upset.
>
> I'm just questioning the utility of turning against Deneb... Getting her blocked or whatever...
>
Oh of course, but I was referring to what you'd said to JYL.. "maybe you want to ask yourself that question"
To me that was asking her to question why these posts had the power to upset her.
And I think some things are upsetting, there was absolutely nothing personal about Deneb in my response, except that I do agree that in certan cases a reprimand seems to help push the process of extinguishing certain behaviour along a bit, and I'm not against it.
Villifying a person is different.
Posted by JenStar on August 28, 2005, at 20:39:49
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:29:36
hi Alex,
I'm not personally turning against Deneb, and I don't think the site is a whole either. At least I hope not. :)I agree with what Nick said -- Deneb's future on the site depends on HER and her own choices about posting. (Just like MY future here depends on what I post.) Although we must have compassion as a group and as individuals, it's also everyone's responsibility to look at the needs of the group, the general triggers, and tailor their posts to match the mood. If one person continually posts things that just don't "go" here, they probably WILL end up engendering negative feelings towards them...
Some people are extremely sensitive to suicide, clearly, and it's important to recognize that and respect it here. Especially if the same pattern of posting is happening over and over again -- it's critical to break that cycle to maintain the respect and trust of the other people here.
I know you don't want to argue, and I don't want to either! I just wanted to say that I'm not "against" Deneb, but I'm still "for" personal responsibility. I think the two are not mutually exclusive.
thanks for reading!
JenStarPS - On a personal note, though, I don't think there is ANY comparison between Deneb and some of the blocked posters (Lou, So.) Although Deneb sometimes posts things that trouble others, she also posts lots of generous, kind, funny and informative posts. She genuinely interacts here. I never saw that from some previous posters. I don't think it's fair to even include her name in a sentence with their names!
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 21:06:04
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 20:39:17
> I was referring to what you'd said to JYL.. "maybe you want to ask yourself that question"
> To me that was asking her to question why these posts had the power to upset her.
I understand that some people are upset. I'm not trying to imply that people 'choose' to feel upset and so it is their problem.
It is just that when people are very upset... upset enough to not care whether the way in which they express that results in a block or not...
Well then it might be time to have a look at what else is going on.Maybe I misunderstood... I thought the implication was that either it is Deneb's fault for purposely hurting people, or it was Dr Bob's fault for not blocking her.
I just thought that sometimes we need to take a little more responsibility ourselves.
Some people find a fair few of Deneb's posts upsetting. Fine. Stop reading them. Its that simple. Take the power back.
> I do agree that in certan cases a reprimand seems to help push the process of extinguishing certain behaviour along a bit, and I'm not against it.
Yeah. Its just that typically people attempt to do this to themselves. Beat themselves up for their stupidity or whatever. People typically use punishment. What is much much harder to get up off the ground is reward / satisfaction for good / appropriate behaviour.
It is hard....
How much should we be allowed to 'make' someone change because of our preferences?
I am not fond of punishment.
Well... That is to say I'm a little too fond of it in my own case. But when I am thinking relatively more objectively I realise that it actually isn't so helpful.
BAD BAD BAD just makes one want to hang ones head.Giving someone an appropriate alternative
Then praising thatWorks better...
But it is also true...
That it takes a hell of a lot more effort.It is true that this issue has come up before.
And the outcome of that...
Was the importance of trigger warnings.
I'm serious.
I don't think Deneb understood WHY suicide / attitude towards death is not acceptable
I don't think Deneb understood HOW MUCH it upsets some people.
The outcome was...
The importance of trigger warnings...
Though I'm not sure that she completely got precisely which topics (I dunno either)
She put them in this time.And that is improvement.
Slow, sure
But improvement.
I dunno whether she'll get a PBC or not...
Dunno.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 21:10:11
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on August 28, 2005, at 20:39:49
> Deneb's future on the site depends on HER and her own choices about posting. (Just like MY future here depends on what I post.)
Yes. How nice it is to see ones choices... To appreciate what is and is not appropriate and why it is / is not appropriate...
>Although we must have compassion as a group and as individuals, it's also everyone's responsibility to look at the needs of the group, the general triggers, and tailor their posts to match the mood. If one person continually posts things that just don't "go" here, they probably WILL end up engendering negative feelings towards them...
Yes. The consequences. Whether one intends them or not. Whether one forsees them or not. There are consequences. What is hard is not having an understanding of the likely consequences BEFORE the fact.
>I just wanted to say that I'm not "against" Deneb, but I'm still "for" personal responsibility. I think the two are not mutually exclusive.Sure.
> I don't think there is ANY comparison between Deneb and some of the blocked posters (Lou, So.) Although Deneb sometimes posts things that trouble others, she also posts lots of generous, kind, funny and informative posts. She genuinely interacts here. I never saw that from some previous posters.
Then I would like to suggest that you missed out on some of their better posts. All of them by the sounds of it. Thats a shame :-(
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 21:47:07
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 21:06:04
> > I was referring to what you'd said to JYL.. "maybe you want to ask yourself that question"
>
> > To me that was asking her to question why these posts had the power to upset her.
>
> I understand that some people are upset. I'm not trying to imply that people 'choose' to feel upset and so it is their problem.
>
I think I misunderstood what you meant by "..ask yourself that question" and that makes the rest of what I said irrelevant, because I completely agree with your take on the situation.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 22:03:25
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 21:47:07
:-)
I'll leave this bit in because I imagine you probably like it:
> > I understand that some people are upset. I'm not trying to imply that people 'choose' to feel upset and so it is their problem.
We are getting good at this getting-on business aren't we ;-)
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 22:20:55
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 22:03:25
> :-)
>
> I'll leave this bit in because I imagine you probably like it:
>
> > > I understand that some people are upset. I'm not trying to imply that people 'choose' to feel upset and so it is their problem.
>
> We are getting good at this getting-on business aren't we ;-)
>
Why I think we are : )
Posted by gardenergirl on August 28, 2005, at 22:31:58
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 28, 2005, at 20:29:36
>
> Nicer to feel that one has a certain degree of control (though not complete control) over how much one allows oneself to be affected by others.
>
> It is too easy to rail at others for 'making us feel'.
> Too easy to rail at others for not protecting us from our own emotional responses.Hi alexandra,
I appreciate that you are thinking deeply about this issue and trying to understand and perhaps explain.Still...
I feel the need to say that I absolutely own my reactions to posts which upset me. Posts do not "make me" feel anything.
But me owning my reactions and feelings to posts does not absolve posters of any consequence for posting something which may be inappropriate or not within the site's guidelines. The content is there regardless of my reaction or non-reaction to it.
Examining what lies behind my own reactions to posts is an exercise which benefits only me and does not change the nature of a post.
And frankly, I don't think that anyone here can "get someone blocked". If a person who is blocked had followed site guidelines, they couldn't be blocked, could they? Aren't posters responsible for the consequences of what they post?
gg
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 23:33:29
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on August 28, 2005, at 22:31:58
> >
> > Nicer to feel that one has a certain degree of control (though not complete control) over how much one allows oneself to be affected by others.
> >
> > It is too easy to rail at others for 'making us feel'.
> > Too easy to rail at others for not protecting us from our own emotional responses.
>
> Hi alexandra,
> I appreciate that you are thinking deeply about this issue and trying to understand and perhaps explain.
>
> Still...
>
> I feel the need to say that I absolutely own my reactions to posts which upset me. Posts do not "make me" feel anything.
>
Do you think everyone should be able to resist feeling if they are hurting or terrified of something? I'm wondering where the line is..meaning, if you were caught in a fire, should you be able to choose something other than fear because It wasn't the fire that made you feel afraid?
Posted by alexandra_k on August 29, 2005, at 0:40:15
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on August 28, 2005, at 22:31:58
> Hi alexandra
Hello gg :-)
> I appreciate that you are thinking deeply about this issue and trying to understand and perhaps explain.
Trying... But I think everybody knows I talk a lot of sh*t.
> Still...
> I feel the need to say that I absolutely own my reactions to posts which upset me. Posts do not "make me" feel anything.Okay...
> But me owning my reactions and feelings to posts does not absolve posters of any consequence for posting something which may be inappropriate or not within the site's guidelines.Indeed. I never meant to imply that it did. I said (somewhere) that I didn't know whether there would be admin action or not...
>The content is there regardless of my reaction or non-reaction to it.
Right.
> Examining what lies behind my own reactions to posts is an exercise which benefits only me
Well... I think it can also benefit the posters who read your subsequent posts.
>and does not change the nature of a post.
Right. And there are consequences for posting certain kinds of things.
> And frankly, I don't think that anyone here can "get someone blocked".I guess I was thinking that blockings / PBC's tend to come out when a situation is escalating. If a situation is all sorted out then there is the possibility that it might get by. So our responses aren't completely irrelevant with respect to whether people get PBC'd / blocked or not.
>If a person who is blocked had followed site guidelines, they couldn't be blocked, could they?
No. But if people are upset and somebody posts something ambiguous then it is more likely to be interpreted negatively.
>Aren't posters responsible for the consequences of what they post?
Yes.
And I think PBC's / blockings are consequences.
And saying how one feels in response.
(In a civil way)
Sure.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 29, 2005, at 0:53:00
In reply to Re: does it really? » gardenergirl, posted by Gabbix2 on August 28, 2005, at 23:33:29
>Do you think everyone should be able to resist feeling if they are hurting or terrified of something?
I hope you don't mind my having a go...
I think it depends what you are hurt or terrified of (the object of your emotion).
Some emotional responses are more hard wired.
Other emotional responses are more a matter of interpretation...
If its more hard wired then its harder to change...
If its more interpretive then if one can change ones interpretation then there may be a possibility of changing the emotion.
Its hard to work out an interpretation.
There aren't any facts of the matter (IMO)
Find what works...With fairly primary emotions (anger, fear) you might not be able to alleviate them completely by changing an interpretation.
But changing an interpretation should make the emotional state manageable (less painful).
Emotions are supposed to serve a function...
Its getting back into touch with that...
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 29, 2005, at 1:17:07
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 29, 2005, at 0:53:00
> >Do you think everyone should be able to resist feeling if they are hurting or terrified of something?
>
> I hope you don't mind my having a go...Nope I don't mind, but the reason I asked the question is because GG had used the word Absolute, the rest is not something I question.
I practice thinking through my feelings in order to make them manageable without even being conscious of it most of the time.However, I don't think people can determine what is "hard wired" or more to the point, there are basic instinctive reactions, but I don't think one can determine what else may be hard wired for other individuals, or to what level they can make their emotions manageable. I can't cheer myself out of a depression, no matter how many people think I can "snap out of it"
And words affect us physiologically as well.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 29, 2005, at 1:24:05
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 29, 2005, at 1:17:07
> However, I don't think people can determine what is "hard wired"
Yeah thats right. Those are the ones that are hard-wired from birth. They are innate. You get them in virtue of being a human being.
>I don't think one can determine what else may be hard wired for other individuals
Some of them you get by virtue of being human. Humans tend to respond to snakes and spiders with a fear response. But over time... We can learn to inhibit this fear response...
>I can't cheer myself out of a depression, no matter how many people think I can "snap out of it"
Yeah. Most people seem to think that emotions are a cognitive interpretation of levels of physiological arousal. The 'intensity' of the emotion is to do with the level of physiological arousal. When you are depressed you are having low levels of arousal. Try talking your way out of that one ;-)
> And words affect us physiologically as well.yes.
though mostly... via an interpretation...
(because the connection between words and what they signify isn't something that is innate - it is something that we learn. We learn a language. So the associations aren't as strong...)
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2005, at 1:36:30
In reply to does it really? » Nickengland, posted by justyourlaugh on August 28, 2005, at 17:17:07
> intentionally disruptive and provocative.
>
> emmy> her games...
>
> justyourlaughPlease don't post anything that could lead to others feeling accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2005, at 1:36:48
In reply to One thing that could help on a separate issue...., posted by Nickengland on August 28, 2005, at 10:05:21
> What could help is if there was more of a presence of admistrators/moderators for those times when they cannot both be here.
It's great when the community can moderate itself, but we're also close to having a couple new deputy administrators. More news soon!
Bob
Posted by Gabbix2 on August 29, 2005, at 2:01:56
In reply to Re: does it really? » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on August 29, 2005, at 1:24:05
>
> Some of them you get by virtue of being human. Humans tend to respond to snakes and spiders with a fear response. But over time... We can learn to inhibit this fear response...
>You can, and I can, but I don't believe it's fair that because we are able to, that it's a possiblity for everyone.
Some people can work their way out of a depression, I can't though. I think people are far to complex in emotional make up for anyone other than the person themselves to make a determination as to what they can achieve.
Posted by crazy teresa on August 29, 2005, at 9:24:56
In reply to does it really? » Nickengland, posted by justyourlaugh on August 28, 2005, at 17:17:07
> dr..where is your common sense?
> ...Yet another question which has been ignored by the bobster.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 29, 2005, at 19:15:01
In reply to Re: does it really? » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on August 29, 2005, at 2:01:56
> Some people can work their way out of a depression, I can't though...
Sorry to interrupt, but I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding whether people can to Psycho-Babble Psychology. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20050824/msgs/548417.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.