![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 38. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Toph on February 6, 2005, at 21:08:02
Many have noticed Atticus' frequent complaints about Bob's myriad rules and blocks. He views Bob’s sanctions as infantilizing of adults whose discourse is needlessly constrained and who are punished as if grounded to their rooms when they are bad. During my 3-week confinement it dawned on me that Bob's interventions are not just degrading to the pilloried poster, but they are frequently infantilizing for the putative perpetrator as well. If two posters disagree and one is not supportive of the other, is it not condescending for Bob to stop the discourse when both parties may not want his intrusion? The other day at work I overheard a guy say something overtly sexist to a fellow female employee. I jumped in and chivalrously chastised his boorish comment. I was quickly knocked off my high horse when the woman told me to stop patronizing her, that she could handle this situation herself. I wish Bob would be less condescending towards the adults on this site who, for the most part, are competent individuals capable of resolving many disagreements on their own without his demeaning interference. Even skilled caregivers of children are aware that while intervention is sometimes necessary to prevent harm, in many circumstances disputes need only be observed in order that children are allowed to learn for themselves how to work things out. Therapeutic group members by and large police their own conduct. As a PB participant of less than a year’s time, I wonder how many interesting and valuable posters have left frustrated and degraded by restrained speech. Imagine how dynamic this group could be if members were treated in a more adult fashion, if Bob demonstrated better discretion with his use of authority by investigating before reacting, and if we all had more of a say in helping each other become more respectful of each other.
Toph
Posted by Toph on February 6, 2005, at 22:33:15
In reply to Bobtuse, posted by Toph on February 6, 2005, at 21:08:02
> Bob's interventions are not just degrading to the pilloried poster, but they are frequently infantilizing for the putative perpetrator as well.
I meant he is infantilizing of the so-called victim as well.
So much for your illusory beliefs of me as infallable.
Toph
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 20:27:27
In reply to Bobtuse, posted by Toph on February 6, 2005, at 21:08:02
two posters disagree and one is not supportive of the other, is it not condescending for Bob to stop the discourse when both parties may not want his intrusion? The other day at work I overheard a guy say something overtly sexist to a fellow female employee. I jumped in and chivalrously chastised his boorish comment. I was quickly knocked off my high horse when the woman told me to stop patronizing her, that she could handle this situation herself.
>Well, I think what you did was great. I wouldn't have felt patronized. I think it's important that men hear from other men that sexism isn't just a woman's issue, just as racism isn't a visible minority issue. I hope it doesn't stop you from speaking out in the future, although obviously it will if she's involved.
I don't generally find Bob's intervention to be patronizing either, though I haven't had it happen to me. I like it when people support others when they see something that looks unfair, it feels more validating than patronizing to me but I guess I can understand why some would see it as an intrusion. Generally I like the civility rules, what I don't like is the inconsistancy in the way the punishments are applied, that's a big issue for me, and often I think the blocks are far too long.
I wish Bob would be less condescending towards the adults on this site who, for the most part, are competent individuals capable of resolving many disagreements on their own without his demeaning interference. Even skilled caregivers of children are aware that while intervention is sometimes necessary to prevent harm, in many circumstances disputes need only be observed in order that children are allowed to learn for themselves how to work things out. Therapeutic group members by and large police their own conduct. As a PB participant of less than a year’s time, I wonder how many interesting and valuable posters have left frustrated and degraded by restrained speech. Imagine how dynamic this group could be if members were treated in a more adult fashion, if Bob demonstrated better discretion with his use of authority by investigating before reacting, and if we all had more of a say in helping each other become more respectful of each other.
>
> Toph
Posted by Toph on February 7, 2005, at 21:54:03
In reply to Toph » Toph, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 20:27:27
Thanks for reading my rant, Gabbi. I don't think that civility is the issue, because I like that this is a safe place, especially for people who have emotional problems. I also think its important to have 911 to call if you need a cop or to have a fire doused, though we babblers seem to be the paramedics not Bob when someone's hurt or sick. What I was trying to say is that the administration of discipline has to be fair, just and merciful. I see it here as less than that. No due process, no investigation, no consideration of extenuating circumstances. Too much boarding school and not enough Montessori. Part of helping rid the world of sexism, for example is to point out when someone is insensitive, for example. That's really hard to do here. You can support the offended party, but it takes someone who is very clever at Bobspeak to confront the sexist person with his/her insensitivity.
If I'm going to stay around here I guess I'll just have to forget about addressing another poster about something that bothers me, as supportive as negative feedback can be among people who care about each other.
Toph
Posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:08:28
In reply to Rules » Gabbix2, posted by Toph on February 7, 2005, at 21:54:03
Ah, but it is amazing what you can do with bobspeak... really... it isn't such a bad skill to get good at :-)
I have trouble getting the hang of it sometimes...
But there really are some useful posts on it.
People have said some really good things on trying to understand / come to grips with the civility rules. How about putting a link to some of that in the FAQ?????
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:31:18
In reply to Re: Rules » Toph, posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:08:28
> Ah, but it is amazing what you can do with bobspeak... really... it isn't such a bad skill to get good at :-)
>
> I have trouble getting the hang of it sometimes...Yes it is good, but as oh gosh who was it...
Forgive me poster I can't remember your name saidRules are adhered to by fools but
Guidelines for the wise.
I'm not sure *that's* exactly right.I do appreciate that Bob has seemingly been more lenient about how firmly one sticks to his phrasing rules for civilty, (however even that can be disconcerting in case he becomes strict again without warning) At one time though he would block someone for the most minute misstep
and I don't think that's the spirit of I stament rules. Just as etiquette is actually only proper etiquette when people feel comfortable not when they feel intimidated, so it should be with civility language rules.
I don't believe someone should be blocked for accidentally saying "I find that offensive" rather than "I was offended by that" and yet it happens. I believe that no one should be blocked for saying a racist statement is offensive, but that happens too. And sometimes an insult is an insult.. it's happened here, and we should be able to call it what it is, and say I think that was insulting to "so and so" Not "If I were so and so I think I would feel insulted"
There is no theory that has stood the test of time that hasn't made allowences for our humanness. I believe owning your feelings is a good thing, but the theory behind it shouldn't be used as a bat to club people with or it's purpose is defeated.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:38:11
In reply to Re: Rules » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:31:18
Hmm. I guess I just think about how someone is likely to feel in response - and there phrasing can make a whole heap of difference.
It mightn't seem that way to the writer
But it can to the person the post is directed to.
I see the guidelines rules whatever as a way of preventing the situation from unnecessarily escalating.But I have heard a fair few people express your sentiments about the strictness with which they can be applied at times... and the length of the blocks that can result from fairly 'minor' missteps.
I haven't been around long enough, perhaps...
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:39:43
In reply to Rules » Gabbix2, posted by Toph on February 7, 2005, at 21:54:03
> Thanks for reading my rant, Gabbi. I don't think that civility is the issue, because I like that this is a safe place, especially for people who have emotional problems. I also think its important to have 911 to call if you need a cop or to have a fire doused, though we babblers seem to be the paramedics not Bob when someone's hurt or sick. What I was trying to say is that the administration of discipline has to be fair, just and merciful. I see it here as less than that. No due process, no investigation, no consideration of extenuating circumstances. Too much boarding school and not enough Montessori.
Part of helping rid the world of sexism, for example is to point out when someone is insensitive, for example. That's really hard to do here. You can support the offended party, but it takes someone who is very clever at Bobspeak to confront the sexist person with his/her insensitivity.Yes it's hard but trust me it can be done!
Do I think it should have to be? I honestly don't know. I don't. I used to be far more
angry and say "This is B.S" But the truth is the I prefer the posters at babble as a whole better than any other board I've posted on, so *something* is being done right.
It's actually more correct by Bob's standards in some cases to be very direct, it's surprising. You could say "I'm really irritated by that (whatever it is) or that really angers me, and I feel like you think I'm less of a person, or so and so is less of a person because she's a woman. That would be considered civil.
>
> If I'm going to stay around here I guess I'll just have to forget about addressing another poster about something that bothers me, as supportive as negative feedback can be among people who care about each other.
>
> TophWell that's completely up to you, but it's definitely learnable, I do however think people should get points for trying and up until very recently they did not. I don't like the artificiality of it but after a while you can make most of it your own.
As for the judging of intent and all that.
Yeah, I agree. I also think there is no way that Bob couldn't be exhausted by if not sick of us by now and I'm surprised he does as well as he does, however.. he has also turned down any offers of help so I don't think that's an excuse for unfairness.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:39:48
In reply to Re: Rules » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:38:11
But does that mean you think the situation is getting better????
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:43:43
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix, posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:39:48
> But does that mean you think the situation is getting better????
UUUHHH sort of? But I wish if the rules have been softened that Bob would say something and that he would acknowledge the people who'd helped change his mind. There were other times where it seemed to me Bob has had lenient periods and then snapped back to his former strict standards without notice, and all it does is confuse.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:48:29
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:43:43
> > But does that mean you think the situation is getting better????
> UUUHHH sort of? But I wish if the rules have been softened that Bob would say something and that he would acknowledge the people who'd helped change his mind.Hmm. Perhaps we shouldn't push it... ;-)
>There were other times where it seemed to me Bob has had lenient periods and then snapped back to his former strict standards without notice, and all it does is confuse.
I wonder if this may happen after peoples give him a particularly hard time about a block or a length of blocking...
I dunno. Maybe he is trying to keep us on our toes...
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:57:57
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 22:48:29
> Hmm. Perhaps we shouldn't push it... ;-)
Oh geez, you're right!
> I dunno. Maybe he is trying to keep us on our toes...
It works well.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 23:40:41
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:57:57
Though if we really are serious about wanting a change in the blocking policy it might be something best discussed when we are feeling fairly cool calm and collected about it all rather than waiting till we are mad as hell...
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 7, 2005, at 23:51:11
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on February 7, 2005, at 23:40:41
> Though if we really are serious about wanting a change in the blocking policy it might be something best discussed when we are feeling fairly cool calm and collected about it all rather than waiting till we are mad as hell...
Yes that's a good point, it really is,
but then.. it's also a good way to make oneself mad as hell in my experience. : )
Posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2005, at 0:18:47
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 7, 2005, at 23:51:11
> Yes that's a good point, it really is,
> but then.. it's also a good way to make oneself >mad as hell in my experience. : )Aaaaaaah, but if we are careful to observe the civility 'guidelines'...
;-)
Posted by gardenergirl on February 8, 2005, at 6:40:23
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix, posted by alexandra_k on February 8, 2005, at 0:18:47
So hell is okay here? (Now there's a question!)
I would think that would be asterisked.What if hell were asterisked? Would it not feel like hell? Okay, too early in the morning. I've made my head hurt.
:0
gg
Posted by Dinah on February 8, 2005, at 8:23:21
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 7, 2005, at 23:51:11
Posted by Dinah on February 8, 2005, at 8:26:03
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:43:43
I too have noticed he's decided to listen to feedback and be a bit more understanding when people appear to be trying to follow the rules. He still can't stand having a cease and desist order violated, even slightly, though.
I don't know if it has validity any longer, because my observations is that it isn't balanced on this, but he used to say that he was more vigilant when he thought there was a forest fire in the making.
Posted by Toph on February 8, 2005, at 10:24:33
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix » Gabbix2, posted by Dinah on February 8, 2005, at 8:26:03
> I too have noticed he's decided to listen to feedback and be a bit more understanding when people appear to be trying to follow the rules. He still can't stand having a cease and desist order violated, even slightly, though.
>
> I don't know if it has validity any longer, because my observations is that it isn't balanced on this, but he used to say that he was more vigilant when he thought there was a forest fire in the making.I may not be as qualified or experienced as you are, and while this may sound like sour grapes, I disagree. I find in my short time here that (to use the 911 metaphor again) Bob is a better cop than a detective, extinguishes some fires that are actually candles, and confuses misdemeanors for felonies and vice versa - arsonists and serial killers escape justice while regular participants are banished for excessive parking tickets.
OK, so I'm a touch dramatic.
Toph
Posted by AuntieMel on February 8, 2005, at 11:09:52
In reply to Re: Rules - Gabbix, posted by gardenergirl on February 8, 2005, at 6:40:23
hell is allowed and b*mbo isn't
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 8, 2005, at 14:11:13
In reply to Re: Rules » Toph, posted by Gabbix2 on February 7, 2005, at 22:39:43
> is it not condescending for Bob to stop the discourse when both parties may not want his intrusion?
>
> TophOne issue here is that posts aren't just between two people. Posters can discourse however they like by email, but what they post affects the environment for everyone.
--
> I used to be far more angry and say "This is B.S" But the truth is the I prefer the posters at babble as a whole better than any other board I've posted on, so *something* is being done right.
>
> Gabbix2I know I'm not perfect, but I try to do my best. And I agree, the posters here are great! :-)
Bob
Posted by AuntieMel on February 8, 2005, at 15:53:11
In reply to Re: the posters at babble, posted by Dr. Bob on February 8, 2005, at 14:11:13
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 8, 2005, at 16:35:31
In reply to Re: aw, shucks (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by AuntieMel on February 8, 2005, at 15:53:11
I'll second that
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 8, 2005, at 18:50:35
In reply to Re: the posters at babble, posted by Dr. Bob on February 8, 2005, at 14:11:13
you are better than all right.
I have appreciated you and this site for over a year now.
I know there are many who have fled this site for PC.
And I have read their posts.
but...
you knew this was coming.
Dr. Bob, honestly I have never had a problem with you.
You wanted me not to post while I was wrapped up in my political fervor...
I understood that.
Life goes on...
I still come here to babble and read the posts, enjoy the posters and am interested in your opinions.
Jai Narayan
Posted by Gabbi-x-2 on February 9, 2005, at 0:14:31
In reply to Re: the posters at babble, posted by Dr. Bob on February 8, 2005, at 14:11:13
I need to rephrase this for myself, it probably looks silly but I have too.
....the truth is the I prefer the posters at babble as a whole better than any other board I've posted on, so *something* is being done right.
That sounded completely egocentric.
"As long as I prefer the posters here, something is being done right" YUK!
That wasn't at all what I was thinking. I meant that I think the posters here overall are the most intelligent, interesting people I've met on any board, so something must be being done right. There I feel better now.
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