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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 14 to 38 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by shadows721 on June 25, 2004, at 17:34:44
In reply to Dr Bob, please help, posted by pegasus on June 24, 2004, at 12:36:57
I agree with all of the other posters here. I feel there is an apparent display of mind testing and with the quidelines of civility of Babble. I feel it is becoming quite obvious this person is playing a mind game to seduce others to become uncivil. This is not supportive or eductional in any means. I feel their intent is quite deceptive and used to seduce confusion and rage. I feel this technique is done in effort to lash out or punish others for something that that is not being revealed by this person. I feel there must be something that this person is angry at, but is deciding to lash out this anger on a safe place and people. I strongly feel that this done in an underhanded manner that is to undermine the very purpose of PsychoBabble. I as always will support anyone that needs it and offer it too.
However, I will not condone this continued malicious behavior. I feel that this is a form of punishment by intentially ignoring babbler's posts, critizing dx and treatments, insulting posters with disabilities, and intentially posting back they can't understand the message of the babbler.
I feel there message is screaming unsupportive and uncivil. I feel the very fact that others are feeling they need to get away from PsychoBabble or requests for this individual to not reply is a direct clue their undermining efforts are working and the damage is not being recognized.
Also, I feel many others are recognizing this, but feel they can't say anything for fear of being blocked or receiving a PBC warning. So, I feel that we are continuing to be subjected to a malicious underhanded misdirected rage. I feel that is far from supportive. I feel this is down right abusive.
Posted by shadows721 on June 25, 2004, at 18:09:06
In reply to I feel Psycho Babblers are being tested, posted by shadows721 on June 25, 2004, at 17:34:44
I feel this babbler is demonstrating another form of uncivility criteria that needs to be added to the be civil guidelines.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 25, 2004, at 21:46:34
In reply to Re: Picking my naive jaw up off of the floor » gardenergirl, posted by tabitha on June 25, 2004, at 12:49:08
Thanks Tabitha. It seems that asking the question directly was not effective either. Boy am I flashing back to interacting with a colleague of mine who, er, how can I say this, in a time of exorbitant stress dropped down from one level of ego functioning to another more troubled one. I remember how upsetting that was. I also remember it had nothing to do with me personally. And I remember that neither directness nor empathy worked.
So thank you for your support of my efforts. I too, admire those who offered empathy and support, and I feel sad that it was abruptly turned away, as I know both offered it from a genuine place in their hearts.
I think that bowing out is not a bad idea. Certainly it's self-protective. And apparently watching out for ourselves (and each other, thank goodness for Babblers) is the most reliable and consistent protection we can access.
Take care wise one,
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on June 25, 2004, at 22:00:11
In reply to I feel Psycho Babblers are being tested, posted by shadows721 on June 25, 2004, at 17:34:44
jyl, Your post reminded me of something I had recently emailed to a couple of folks. It has a similar bent to it to what you have posted.
Racer and tof: Remember that wild-&ss, bizarre theory I had about who is behind this? Well, three different, unconnected-from Babble people thought the same thing without my prompting, when they learned of this. Hmmmm.
What was the name of that movie again?
gg
Posted by spoc on June 25, 2004, at 23:06:50
In reply to I feel Psycho Babblers are being tested, posted by shadows721 on June 25, 2004, at 17:34:44
... ever notice how (this is true for me anyway) if you are talking to someone about something you simply have deep feelings about -- but you're not feeling mad, mad at them or losing your head -- and they say something like "don't attack me," "calm down," "RELAX," etc... then suddenly you *are* feeling mad? But you also know that the only answer is not to give that satisfaction? One of those "Easier said than done" things... God knows I can be Barney Fife ("Mayberry RFD") myself, getting riled and going on and on until suddenly I notice the smirk...
Posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 9:26:35
In reply to Re: I feel Psycho Babblers are being tested, posted by spoc on June 25, 2004, at 23:06:50
first of all, spoc, that happened to me last night! and i was ANGRY after it happened! i hate that!
everyone else: i agree with the conversation completely. i feel that sometimes posts are able to slide through. and it's not fair, and it's upsetting...
but, i've not been able to get upset about this matter, because frankly i don't read the posts. i've read a few directed entirely to me, responded without a drop of sarcasm or negativity (i took it as the person i responded to wanted answers) and haven't read many posts since then.
i think that we have the option to pick and choose what we read, and that's one of the best options we have available to us. i'm honestly not trying to down-play the hurt feelings (and believe me, on occassion i've open said posters posts and was astounded. but, i quickly closed it and thought 'it's a shame that person doesn't understand.'), i honestly do understand how hurtful words can be.
but, if nothing's going to be done about it, why not just avoid the things that make you uncomfortable? i've been doing it and it works out great for me.
just a different, but certainly not better, opinion...
Posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 9:37:04
In reply to perhaps a different view? » spoc, posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 9:26:35
i really hope no one mistakes my previous response for indifference, because i assure you, we are on the same page.
it jsut appears that nothing is going to be done at this point. and getting even more upset probably won't solve that, and may lead to very supportive people being blocked instead.
so, please choose your words carefully. and honestly, if you find it upsetting, then don't open the thread or posts. i have a feeling no good would come from that, only more hurt feelings that we don't need...
Posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 10:02:35
In reply to perhaps a different view? » spoc, posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 9:26:35
my original post was not directed at spoc.. it was more of a 'can i interrupt the conversation for a second?'...
sorry spoc, didn't mean to get your hopes up :)
(wanna fight? i can sucker punch you then run really fast!)
Posted by spoc on June 26, 2004, at 10:29:38
In reply to perhaps a different view? » spoc, posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 9:26:35
... I just enjoy theory, ethics, looking at components of situations, that kind of stuff. There's a field day of it on Admin right now. I'd like to comment more in places (and may), but worry that it may not come across that it's theory I enjoy, not conflict.
> but, if nothing's going to be done about it, why not just avoid the things that make you uncomfortable? i've been doing it and it works out great for me.
<<<<<<< Absolutely! Somewhere up there, I think it was on the first Admin thread about this, I said the same thing, in response to GG's comment about again being a moth to the flame.
I wasn't involved in those Psych threads nor emotionally invested in their subject matter, but feel that's an often useful place to comment from. In my last post, I guess what I wanted to do (in as few words as possible, since it's tricky to discuss "correctly") was encourage the hurt people to see yet another dimension to why they felt that way. They had identified plenty already, but I thought the one I mentioned might be a specific nuance/technique of delivery to be aware of. Because when that's what's behind something, I know I immediately realize that the last thing I want to do is let it succeed, see the smirk get bigger. Realizing it may indeed be a technique reduces its power, and makes me feel much stronger and in control. Sometimes I can genuinely smirk/laugh back.
While I do endorse ignoring things we don't want to see (not that I'm so good at it myself), I got the idea that Dr. Bob may genuinely think the intentions were good, and thought I'd give my 2 cents on that, just for the record, for its own sake. Whether I think anything should be done or not, and even knowing he aims not to rule on intent. I guess because having gotten even Dr. Bob to buy in would be the ultimate satisfaction. (Sorry, I know I'm not psychic. These are all just my impressions.)
Posted by spoc on June 26, 2004, at 10:31:48
In reply to good grief! one more thing.., posted by karen_kay on June 26, 2004, at 10:02:35
... but that's ok, it gave me the chance to make my brilliant point even clearer! ;- )
Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 15:09:12
In reply to Re: HA HA! U do know me. We cross-posted... » karen_kay, posted by spoc on June 26, 2004, at 10:31:48
As a kid, I experienced horrible things. The rule was keep your mouth shut no matter what. Ignore what you see and never tell what happened. The sneaky Uncle doing the harm got away totally and I and my siblings were left with the wounds bleeding and bruises. My father caught him in the act of raping me and I was told I would be beaten if I ever told what happened. He did NOTHING to my Uncle. My Uncle continued to molest me and others for years. No one ever stopped him. They choose to ignore the signs of his behavior. He still walks freely on state mandated medications.
My flaw is speaking out against injustice. It's hard for me not to go and protect others.
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 26, 2004, at 16:34:59
In reply to My flaw of speaking out, posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 15:09:12
> I feel it is becoming quite obvious this person is playing a mind game to seduce others to become uncivil.
> I feel this babbler is demonstrating another form of uncivility criteria that needs to be added to the be civil guidelines.
I'm open to adding to the guidelines, but how would you word this new one?
> Be aware that there may be posters who try to start arguments and upset others ("troll"). Of course, not everyone who starts an argument or upsets someone else *intends* to do so. What can be done about trolls?
>
> http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WCBD
>
> Especially in these situations, it may be best just not to respond. If you do, please be civil.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civilAlso, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
> As a kid, I experienced horrible things...
>
> My flaw is speaking out against injustice. It's hard for me not to go and protect others.Thanks for adding that. Just try to be civil when speaking out?
Bob
Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 18:31:37
In reply to Re: being tested, posted by Dr. Bob on June 26, 2004, at 16:34:59
Since Babble deals with discussions of dx, therapies and medications, I feel it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a statement in the civility guidelines speaking directly to those issues. After all, it appears these are the areas that people get hurt and others get uncivil.
How about a simple statement that may read as follows:
"Please respect and do not put down another's diagnosis and medically guided treatments. These treatments may include therapy and/or medication(s)."
I don't know if this is okay. Perhaps, someone else has a better idea of saying this.
Thank you for being open to suggestions with this issue, Dr. Bob.
P.S. I am really trying learn how to speak out and remain civil. I really am. I never want to hurt anyone. I only aim to protect.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 26, 2004, at 19:48:25
In reply to My flaw of speaking out, posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 15:09:12
>
> My flaw is speaking out against injustice. It's hard for me not to go and protect others.My T and I talked about this very aspect in me just yesterday---the need I have to protect or rescue others in order to try to make up for what was lacking in my childhood. He helped me (or at least he tried, still working on it...) to realize that this is part of who I am. I come by it honestly, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Of course not everyone needs or wants to be protected. And there are many ways to go about it. Or so we talked about.
Just wanted to re-frame for you. I hate the word "flaw" when applied to humans, especially one so special as you.
gg
Posted by spoc on June 26, 2004, at 20:39:34
In reply to new clause in civility guidelines?, posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 18:31:37
(...admittedly more so when something hits close to my own subjective home, but often enough just for the sake of others.)
And, I also think your proposed civility statement sounds pretty darn good. :- )
It may still be tricky to get put downs of treatments differentiated from mere other views, but might as well start somewhere!
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2004, at 20:54:41
In reply to Dinah, if you're still reading,, posted by Aphrodite on June 25, 2004, at 16:14:36
I didn't mean to grab all the pain for myself. I'm sure others were hurt. But I am providing a reactivity that probably isn't conducive to closing the topic, given Dr. Bob's decisions.
I probably would never open an alternative forum. I'm too fond of Babble. But I would love to hear from you anytime. I've really enjoyed your posts while you've been here on Babble and love to make new friends. My email address is bullyforyou77 at yahoo etc. Since I'm not posting right now I should be better at returning email. :) I'd enjoy hearing from you while I'm gone.
Dinah
Posted by Dinah on June 26, 2004, at 20:57:35
In reply to Dr. Bob likes us to just suck it up and be civil., posted by Dinah on June 25, 2004, at 7:50:17
I just wanted to be absolutely clear that I'm not leaving Babble or threatening to leave Babble, just bowing out while this particular topic is being discussed in this particular way.
I'll be back, you're not shed of me that easily. :) I'm sure someone will send up a flare when it's safe to come back in the water. And I'll still be at Open in the meantime.
I wasn't at all sure I had made that clear in my post as I was rather upset when I posted.
Posted by shadows721 on June 26, 2004, at 21:29:13
In reply to Re: A clarification, posted by Dinah on June 26, 2004, at 20:57:35
Miss you Dinah. I hope to shoot up a flare really soon.:-)
Posted by Shar on June 26, 2004, at 23:29:24
In reply to Dr Bob, please help, posted by pegasus on June 24, 2004, at 12:36:57
Pegasus, Dinah, and others who are scraping up dropping jaws,
I'm so sorry that you have been hurt or disillusioned, or disappointed by nobody stepping in here. I can certainly join you in that feeling, especially where Dinah is concerned.
In the bad old days, when one was sent reeling in pain, my T and I called this "good information." In that, it's good to have an idea of what to expect.
In this situation, obviously, some people can get away with abuse, while others cannot. I'm very sorry the abusers win out here.
IMHO, of course.
Shar
P.S. Good post, Pegasus.
> Would you please do something about the exchanges skeptical of therapy and various diagnoses going on in babble/psycho? I know that fires isn't saying anything overtly incivil, and may indeed be genuinely trying to help and baffled about why people are feeling bad. But people are clearly feeling put down and accused.
>
> Here's what I mean:
>
> First fires posts about DID/MPD:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/359573.html
>
> “Perhaps a believer in the disorder can tell me . . . Assuming the disorder is real . . .” ?
>
> When Dinah complains that this makes her feel . . . um . . . bad, he replies:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/359584.html
>
> “I don't know what else to say, except perhaps you may be too ill at this time to participate on this group, if indeed my posts are really so disturbing to you.”
>
> Tinydancer tries to help:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040614/msgs/359675.html
>
> “I would ask that you choose your words with consideration, as there are people on these boards who have this diagnosis and may feel put down and insulted by you questioning the legitimacy of this diagnosis.”
>
> And he replies with with:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040624/msgs/359776.html
>
> “I can't help how people chose to interpret my words. I know what my intentions are, and as you have hinted only I can be the judge of them. Or, do some here claim to be able to read minds? :)”
>
> What I would suggest is that it might help for you to give fires your normal civility spiel about the goal here being support *and* education and that it’s not ok to say things that could lead others to feel accused or put down. And it might help to suggest that the way something is worded can make people feel put down, even if the content or intention is not incivil. It is possible to disagree in a supportive way, but I don't think that's happening here.
>
> I’d post this myself, but I asked fires not to post to me, and agreed not to post to him.
>
> pegasus
>
Posted by crushedout on June 26, 2004, at 23:47:53
In reply to Always good to know what form help will take, posted by Shar on June 26, 2004, at 23:29:24
Is it just me or does it seem like men get away with "incivility" (in whatever form) more than women around here? I hope it's ok for me to raise this topic. I'm genuinely concerned, not just attacking for the sake of it. (I'll admit I'm not a big fan of sexism.)
Posted by pegasus on June 27, 2004, at 0:00:24
In reply to Dr Bob, please help, posted by pegasus on June 24, 2004, at 12:36:57
I'm still confused about why Bob is not choosing to give any kind of warning or suggestion to fires. Even if fires didn't intend to hurt people, people were being hurt. The usual guideline is not to post anything that might lead to others feeling accused or put down. Since people *are* feeling accused and put down by fires' posts, then doesn't it follow that he's posting things that might lead people to have those feelings? Thereby warranting the warning? Am I missing something? Is Bob implying that there is something wrong with those of us who feel that way rather than with fires' posts? It's hard to imagine, but I can't figure out how else to make sense of his inaction here.
pegasus
Posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 2:15:57
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, please help, posted by pegasus on June 27, 2004, at 0:00:24
I like everyone and don't want anyone to leave or be hurt. I tried one last time to reach out. Now, I wait and maybe... I will continue to dream of a happy Psycho Babble world again. Maybe, it's time for me to throw in the towel...
Posted by gardenergirl on June 27, 2004, at 9:17:40
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, please help, posted by shadows721 on June 27, 2004, at 2:15:57
No throwing of Babble towel, please. Many have posted about just ignoring certain threads or posters. It's too bad there is not an "ignore member" function here like there is on chat (although I've never tried that to see how it works). But that might make it easier for we moths.
So, throw in the thread towel, or throw in the smoking one (or smoking jacket...;) but please stay with us. I'll help you ignore if you help me?
gg
PS, I admire your caring concern and tenacity. I can see you truly wish to understand and help. :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 10:38:01
In reply to Re: Dr Bob, please help, posted by pegasus on June 27, 2004, at 0:00:24
> "Please respect and do not put down another's diagnosis and medically guided treatments. These treatments may include therapy and/or medication(s)."
>
> shadows721Thanks for helping with this. But would the above mean that negative posts about Effexor would no longer be allowed? Medications do have potential side effects, and I think people should be able to discuss them...
> I'm still confused about why Bob is not choosing to give any kind of warning or suggestion to fires. Even if fires didn't intend to hurt people, people were being hurt. The usual guideline is not to post anything that might lead to others feeling accused or put down. Since people *are* feeling accused and put down by fires' posts, then doesn't it follow that he's posting things that might lead people to have those feelings?
>
> pegasusI see how that's confusing. But I don't think it would work to consider something uncivil whenever someone else felt hurt. For example, someone on Effexor might feel hurt by posts about its risks, but shouldn't those risks be able to be discussed?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on June 28, 2004, at 10:52:09
In reply to Re: new clause in civility guidelines, posted by Dr. Bob on June 28, 2004, at 10:38:01
That you don't see the difference between saying that CBT isn't your treatment of choice but that you're happy it's working for the other poster, that talk therapy has significant limitations but that you realize many people have benefited from it, that Effexor caused horrendous side effects in you but that you realize many are helped by it, and saying that dissociative disorders are a fraud.
The latter is saying something about the "posters" not the treatment. It is saying that the "posters" are lying, delusional (in fact fires used the simile of a schizophrenic who thinks that i don't recall what healed him), or whatever.
But you don't get it. Whether it's lack of belief yourself or lack of training or whatever. I sort of think it's lack of belief. But for whatever reason, I don't think dissociative "disorders" are a safe topic for this board because every dissociative person's worst nightmare can come true here without sanction. I suggest that everybody be *extremely* cautious in discussing this on board.
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