![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Shar on May 17, 2001, at 23:20:20
The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
I agree to some degree about the former statement, and get in trouble if I respond to the latter point. The last time the cure was sweeping, housework, helping others, self-discipline and god. I find these particularly arrogant-toned, and dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards.
And this is civil?
Shar
Posted by JahL on May 17, 2001, at 23:30:54
In reply to Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 17, 2001, at 23:20:20
> The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
History repeating itself, huh?
> And this is civil?
Unhelpful at the very least.
J.
Posted by Mr.Spike on May 18, 2001, at 1:07:59
In reply to Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 17, 2001, at 23:20:20
No no no..... what I said was Meds ALONE won't work. You have to help them work. You can't pop a pill, and then sit in front of the computer, or tv all day and have your problems go away. You have to be an aggressive part of the whole healing thing. I mean look... you see people in wheelchairs or whatnot.... cruizing at life and still live a little. I'm saying she needs to get out.... it looks like her whole life is this board.... hell, that's got to be depressing.
> The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
>
> I agree to some degree about the former statement, and get in trouble if I respond to the latter point. The last time the cure was sweeping, housework, helping others, self-discipline and god. I find these particularly arrogant-toned, and dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards.
>
> And this is civil?
>
> Shar
Posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 7:54:24
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Mr.Spike on May 18, 2001, at 1:07:59
> >. I mean look... you see people in wheelchairs or whatnot.... cruizing at life and still live a little.
Being unable to walk doesn't *necessarily* mean you suffer from severe depression. Which is what we're talking about here.
I find it slighty perverse for you to suggest that people whom, by virtue of their disorder cannot 'get up & do something', to 'get up & do something'. Kind of like asking a schizophrenic to act sane.
There are 2 reasons you know people who lead 'normal' lives on ADs
1/ Their depression is not so severe as to be disabling.
2/ Their ADs are WORKING!!!
Which part of you is having difficulty with this? Do you *really* think all depression is the same or of equal ferocity? You do? Boy you need to do some reading on the subject.
I'm still waiting for you to post something positive instead of incessant attacks upon a certain individual. You seem very angry.
What made me laugh was you telling Eric he needs to 'get a hobby', & then suddenly retracting your (obviously intended) remarks when you realised Eric is part of the hate campaign. Strength in numbers huh?
With great love & affection,
J
Posted by Mr.Spike on May 18, 2001, at 12:43:00
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » Mr.Spike, posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 7:54:24
Actually, no.... I retracted the post for very different reasons. I wanted to tell Elizabeth to get a hobby. He needs one to....but I don't need to post the obvious.
I was very seriously depressed. Tried suicide twice. On AD's. No what helped me? Getting up, getting out.... no matter how difficult. No.... depression is not of all equality... but there is a time when someone should maybe give up and do the hospital thing. But I get discourage... because of her attitude... and yes it angers me. Her "try this, try that".... yet.... she's so beyond healthy? People who have tried things shouldn't be posting so condescendigly that they work...... when they haven't worked for the person. It's entirely a different story if someone comes on here and discuss it after it's worked. To help people. Anyway, I was defending....not just "satan" .... his way with words sucks.... but everyone who is against it, but I see them getting kicked off. Someone has to admit that's wrong. Anyway.... back to the grind of living normally and this board has done me good.... knowing that to get help, you really must help yourself.... or this is the end result. your life. Back to work now... and living. Good luck to all of you.
> > >. I mean look... you see people in wheelchairs or whatnot.... cruizing at life and still live a little.
>
> Being unable to walk doesn't *necessarily* mean you suffer from severe depression. Which is what we're talking about here.
>
> I find it slighty perverse for you to suggest that people whom, by virtue of their disorder cannot 'get up & do something', to 'get up & do something'. Kind of like asking a schizophrenic to act sane.
>
> There are 2 reasons you know people who lead 'normal' lives on ADs
>
> 1/ Their depression is not so severe as to be disabling.
>
> 2/ Their ADs are WORKING!!!
>
> Which part of you is having difficulty with this? Do you *really* think all depression is the same or of equal ferocity? You do? Boy you need to do some reading on the subject.
>
> I'm still waiting for you to post something positive instead of incessant attacks upon a certain individual. You seem very angry.
>
> What made me laugh was you telling Eric he needs to 'get a hobby', & then suddenly retracting your (obviously intended) remarks when you realised Eric is part of the hate campaign. Strength in numbers huh?
>
> With great love & affection,
> J
Posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 13:15:55
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » JahL, posted by Mr.Spike on May 18, 2001, at 12:43:00
> >? People who have tried things shouldn't be posting so condescendigly that they work...... when they haven't worked for the person.
I honestly think some people (not necessarily you) feel threatened by Elizabeth's not inconsiderable psychopharmacological knowledge (I mean have you read some of her 'non-opioid' resonses?) & her good command of the language. When people realise they can't 'win' the debate, the insults start flying. If you think informative, considered (if a little 'hard-edged') debate amounts to condescension, well what can I say?
> > Anyway.... back to the grind of living normally and this board has done me good.... knowing that to get help, you really must help yourself.... or this is the end result.
In yr experience. One man's poison is another man's pleasure (or something like that). I used to make a BIG!!! effort & I became maybe 10% less depressed. But if I score 10/10 on the 'depression-o-meter', I wld still score 9/10 which is still V Severe Depression. And all that (monumental) effort! For so little benefit! For me the output was not worth the input. You will see this is so for many others. You seem lucky to maybe have the sort of depression that remits of its own accord. Many here aren't so lucky.
> >your life. Back to work now... and living. Good luck to all of you.
Sorry you've had it so hard & good to see you're doing better. Good luck to you also.
J.
Posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 21:16:00
In reply to Re: self-help » Mr.Spike, posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 13:15:55
> One man's poison is another man's pleasure (or something like that).
"The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose?" (It is probably also true that the difference between appropriate medication and drug abuse is in the dose -- and the context.)
-e
Posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 21:21:39
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » JahL, posted by Mr.Spike on May 18, 2001, at 12:43:00
> Actually, no.... I retracted the post for very different reasons. I wanted to tell Elizabeth to get a hobby.
It seems to me that you're making an assumption about me based on no information at all (or maybe based on the number of posts I made? that really isn't as time-consuming as it might seem).
You don't know me. You don't see me every day. You have no idea what my life is like.
Please don't be so quick to judge.
-e
Posted by JahL on May 18, 2001, at 21:50:23
In reply to Re: self-help » JahL, posted by Elizabeth on May 18, 2001, at 21:16:00
> > One man's poison is another man's pleasure (or something like that).
>
> "The difference between a medicine and a poison is the dose?"No I *think* I got it right. UK saying meaning "what 'does it' for you doesn't necessarily do it for me". Crack, a pleasure for some, wld be anathema to others. Psychotherapy, self-help books & the like are anathema to me (my actual point!) ;)
j
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 27, 2001, at 17:34:46
In reply to Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 17, 2001, at 23:20:20
I've disagreed with many on this board, yet have never been banned or even told off. When I disagree i say why without getting personal or nasty. I believe that all people should be capable of this.
> The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
>
> I agree to some degree about the former statement, and get in trouble if I respond to the latter point. The last time the cure was sweeping, housework, helping others, self-discipline and god. I find these particularly arrogant-toned, and dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards.
>
> And this is civil?
>
> Shar
Posted by Shar on May 28, 2001, at 0:12:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » Shar, posted by NikkiT2 on May 27, 2001, at 17:34:46
> I've disagreed with many on this board....
......as have I...
.., yet have never been banned or even told off...
.....nor have I...
.... When I disagree i say why without getting personal or nasty...
....a very good approach that I use also....
...... I believe that all people should be capable of this....
....oh.My post was specifically related to a particular type of posting which is "dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards." It also harkens back to another similarly offensive post submitted a while back.
To reiterate my point....that type of post is civil? And stating my opinion about the offending post is not? (rhetorical questions)
As I said, "There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem." It is very close to taking away whatever shreds of hope people may still have, which is, IMHO, cruel...and insensitive, too.
When I stated my opinion about the previously submitted post, I was asked to be civil.
Shar
>
> > The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
> >
> > I agree to some degree about the former statement, and get in trouble if I respond to the latter point. The last time the cure was sweeping, housework, helping others, self-discipline and god. I find these particularly arrogant-toned, and dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards.
> >
> > And this is civil?
> >
> > Shar
Posted by JahL on May 28, 2001, at 8:55:58
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 28, 2001, at 0:12:40
> As I said, "There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem." It is very close to taking away whatever shreds of hope people may still have, which is, IMHO, cruel...and insensitive, too.
Hi Shar.My sentiments entirely. It was this line of thinking that led me to challenge (in perhaps less than civil tones) the deeply offensive post from one of our most celebrated posters. The fact that it has perhaps conferred upon me 'Babble-leper' status is of no concern to me.
The fact is, said individual shld know much better. The post was thoroughly dismissive of the earnest reports given by yourself, SLS, stjames, myself & many others. Apparently we *all* can resolve our debilitating illnesses by changing our 'aberrant thinking' & coming to terms with our emotional demons. Or whatever. As if.
Keep doing the good work of keeping a meds-related board, er... meds-related! :-) . There are dozens of boards out there for people to discuss religion, spirituality, yogic-flying; whatever takes their fancy as rgds treating depression.
> To reiterate my point....that type of post is civil? And stating my opinion about the offending post is not? (rhetorical questions)
The post I am referring to was less than civil; thoroughly contemptuous in fact. However since it contained no (explicitly) personal attacks or expletives, it was deemed acceptable. Anyway, I'm in danger of opening old wounds so I'll shut my mouth. Pls don't do the same!
J.
==================================
> My post was specifically related to a particular type of posting which is "dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards." It also harkens back to another similarly offensive post submitted a while back.
> When I stated my opinion about the previously submitted post, I was asked to be civil.
> Shar
Posted by Cam W. on May 28, 2001, at 10:35:42
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » Shar, posted by JahL on May 28, 2001, at 8:55:58
The fact that it has perhaps conferred upon me 'Babble-leper' status is of no concern to me.
>
• Cut the crap, Jah. You were intentionally being antagonistic without offering any valid rebuttal. Oh, and playing the self-imposed martyr doesn't look good on you.
> The fact is, said individual shld know much better. The post was thoroughly dismissive of the earnest reports given by yourself, SLS, stjames, myself & many others.• I'm sorry, I must have missed something. When did stjames disagree with me? As for SLS, we have been playing genetics v. diasthesis game for over a year. Unlike with your post, I am not insulted by Scott's comments, but I still think that my comments are being taken out of context. You are reading things into my posts that just aren't there. And I do apologize for not being able to go to a top 5 college, thus am unable to express myself as clearly as you would like. I guess my grasp of the English language keeps me from helping others.
>Apparently we *all* can resolve our debilitating illnesses by changing our 'aberrant thinking' & coming to terms with our emotional demons. Or whatever. As if.
>
•Again, you are reading what you want to read, not what was written.
> Keep doing the good work of keeping a meds-related board, er... meds-related! :-) . There are dozens of boards out there for people to discuss religion, spirituality, yogic-flying; whatever takes their fancy as rgds treating depression.
>
• And this is civil?
> > To reiterate my point....that type of post is civil? And stating my opinion about the offending post is not? (rhetorical questions)
>
• No one has said that your post wasn't civil, except you.
> The post I am referring to was less than civil; thoroughly contemptuous in fact. However since it contained no (explicitly) personal attacks or expletives, it was deemed acceptable. Anyway, I'm in danger of opening old wounds so I'll shut my mouth.
>
• You keep saying this, but you don't do it. The way that you are carrying on, I must have struck a nerve with my post. All I was doing was making a clinical observation and you have taken my comments as a personal affront; attacking me in every subsequent post. I really don't know what you have against me, unless you are jealous of my knowledge in some way. It seems that the only way that you can contradict what I say is to attack me personally, without using my name. I forgive you.Love Cam
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 28, 2001, at 10:47:53
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 28, 2001, at 0:12:40
> My post was specifically related to a particular type of posting which is "dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards."
Your original post on this thread? I'm not sure what post it was in response to, maybe this one I deleted?
> > Sitting around like this would never cure any disease. You have to actively try and conquer. Even people with no legs are out their in wheelchairs living at least a little.
> To reiterate my point....that type of post is civil? And stating my opinion about the offending post is not? (rhetorical questions)
I think that post would've been OK if it hadn't been directed at someone in particular. And your response was OK, too.
> As I said, "There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem." It is very close to taking away whatever shreds of hope people may still have, which is, IMHO, cruel...and insensitive, too.
It *is* provoking. OTOH, meds don't solve all problems, and sometimes alternatives besides meds give people hope, too.
> When I stated my opinion about the previously submitted post, I was asked to be civil.
If I have this right, what you said then was:
> > I was wondering if you also felt less self-centered and selfish now.
In that case, I did *not* think you expressed your opinion in a civil way.
--------
> The post I am referring to was less than civil; thoroughly contemptuous in fact. However since it contained no (explicitly) personal attacks or expletives, it was deemed acceptable.
Containing no (explicitly) personal attacks or expletives is a good start, at least. If you want, let me know which post you're referring to, and I'll take another look.
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:44:29
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? , posted by Shar on May 28, 2001, at 0:12:40
I just disagree when the posting attacks someone at a personal level... Actually, I have just lost my cool on this board for the first timel, and this wzas because someone was insinuating something about "me", not about my illness, the medication, but something about me that she had no way of knwoing anything about... Thats what I object to!
Disagreement of a point is fine... If you say a is balck, and I see it as grey, I can argue that point with facts, or simply to say why I think it is grey, that is not upsetting or nasty, but if I were to say, of course its grey you stupid woman, that WOULD be personal...
Yup, useless at explaining what I mean - hope that maked sense!!
Nikki x
h > > I've disagreed with many on this board....
> ......as have I...
> .., yet have never been banned or even told off...
> .....nor have I...
> .... When I disagree i say why without getting personal or nasty...
> ....a very good approach that I use also....
> ...... I believe that all people should be capable of this....
> ....oh.
>
> My post was specifically related to a particular type of posting which is "dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards." It also harkens back to another similarly offensive post submitted a while back.
>
> To reiterate my point....that type of post is civil? And stating my opinion about the offending post is not? (rhetorical questions)
>
> As I said, "There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem." It is very close to taking away whatever shreds of hope people may still have, which is, IMHO, cruel...and insensitive, too.
>
> When I stated my opinion about the previously submitted post, I was asked to be civil.
>
> Shar
>
>
> >
> > > The above is the kind of post that caused a brou haha a while back. There is something provoking about someone posting on a meds-related board that meds won't solve the problem, and then saying what will.
> > >
> > > I agree to some degree about the former statement, and get in trouble if I respond to the latter point. The last time the cure was sweeping, housework, helping others, self-discipline and god. I find these particularly arrogant-toned, and dismissive of the hundreds of people expressing pain on these boards.
> > >
> > > And this is civil?
> > >
> > > Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 30, 2001, at 1:10:40
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » JahL, posted by Cam W. on May 28, 2001, at 10:35:42
> • Cut the crap, Jah. You were intentionally being antagonistic without offering any valid rebuttal. Oh, and playing the self-imposed martyr doesn't look good on you.
I know you felt attacked, but it's still important to keep your cool. Next time, I'll impose a time-out. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 30, 2001, at 1:30:18
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » Shar, posted by NikkiT2 on May 29, 2001, at 11:44:29
> Actually, I have just lost my cool on this board for the first timel
Well, maybe the second time... Anyway, after giving this some more thought, I'd like to try to use "time-outs" more, as an "alternative sentence". So let's make this a week. Email me if I forget to unblock you, this won't be automated. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Cam W. on May 30, 2001, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: please be civil » Cam W., posted by Dr. Bob on May 30, 2001, at 1:10:40
Dr.Bob - Cool. - Cam
> > • Cut the crap, Jah. You were intentionally being antagonistic without offering any valid rebuttal. Oh, and playing the self-imposed martyr doesn't look good on you.
>
> I know you felt attacked, but it's still important to keep your cool. Next time, I'll impose a time-out. Thanks,
>
> Bob
Posted by mair on May 30, 2001, at 21:53:56
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Cam W. on May 30, 2001, at 10:10:25
> Dr.Bob - Cool. - Cam
>
>
> > >Cam - I'm real glad you responded to Dr. Bob's warning in this manner and I hope Nikki will handle her brief (albeit forced) exile with the same equanimity. Mair
Posted by Willow on May 31, 2001, at 14:05:43
In reply to Re: please be civil » Cam W., posted by mair on May 30, 2001, at 21:53:56
Nikki will probably be back before her trip, if she has time. She has promised to try and post from Thailand, apparently there is a "computer cafe." (She used a better word for it.)
Willow
Posted by JahL on June 13, 2001, at 15:11:25
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob---Dare anyone disagree? » JahL, posted by Cam W. on May 28, 2001, at 10:35:42
Hi Cam.
Actually I did walk away. Haven't been here for almost a month. Just took a while to pack my bags :-)
How about we forget this ever happened? Life's too short & obviously this sort of thing detracts from the board as a whole.
Yes you did touch a raw nerve. I have had a version of yr take on things foisted upon me for years. In my case at least, it_just_ain't_true. It has cost me dear in terms of time & £s. I guess I hold you more accountable for yr comments b/c of your professional status. I'm not saying this is necessarily justified or fair.
I am Bipolar & have very real temper problems (as you have seen). Once my spines are up I'm like a dog with a bone.The fact is yr post *appeared* to be dismissive of my preceding post. Red mist & all that.
> >The post was thoroughly dismissive of the earnest reports given by yourself, SLS, stjames, myself & many others.
> • I'm sorry, I must have missed something. When did stjames disagree with me?'Disagreeing' is not the same as 'being dismissive'. What I meant is; James said a pill alone made him feel normal & yr post *appeared* to dismiss this as a possibility. But it's not important.
> You are reading things into my posts that just aren't there.
I don't agree that this is so.
I can promise you that I am not jealous of you.
I can't be bothered to *counter* this rather unpleasant post. I shld point out tho' that one of yr ripostes was in answer to something Shar wrote!
As I've said, my temper is pretty uncontrollable @ the mo' & once the red mist descends there are quite often casualties (part of the reason I have elected to stop posting on this board-this is an exception). I'm sure you'll agree that yr own temper is a little suspect @ times. I stand by everything I have posted (save any insults) but *agree my responses were over-the-top & personal*. I sincerely would've apologised, but having read yr post I no longer feel able to do so.
>I forgive you.
& I you.
In peace & finality,
J.......
Posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 9:59:05
In reply to Cam, posted by JahL on June 13, 2001, at 15:11:25
Jah - Sorry for reacting the way I did. I was still fighting for my own remission (still am). I was shocked when my views were opposed so vehemently. I had not made myself clear; I realize that. Someone (was it mair?), a writer did post what I was trying to say. I was not making a blanket statement; I was just trying to say that many people expect the drug to "cure" them; when a more holistic approach to treatment is needed (a fundamental part of which is, more often than not, medication).
I am very willing to forgive and forget, agree to disagree, or any number of cliches. I believe that by working together WE can help people. Our differing opinions and viewpoints (which aren't so different), as well as our knowledge and experience, should be able to help people to cope in their stuggles against mental illness. I believe that our styles can compliment each other to find a reasonable middle ground.
Thank you for returning, I was feeling guilty that you left. I bid you peace and euthymic days ahead.
Sincerely, Cam
Posted by JahL on June 14, 2001, at 16:46:50
In reply to Re: Cam » JahL, posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 9:59:05
Cam,
Thanks for reciprocating my clear-the-air gesture. It means lot. My medication assuages chronic suicicidal ideation, but in its place comes obsessively hostile/homocidal thoughts. It's a measure of this that up until reading yr latest post I had been kept up @ night by thoughts of "f***ing Cam this & f***ing Cam that" ! Silly I know, but that's the nature of the beast. I'm not the sort of person that naturally backs down, but confrontation is v. unhealthy for me right now.
Part of the problem (?) is that we are seemingly both passionate, committed individuals with strongly held convictions. I think we both exaggerated the case to make our point (at least I did). And you're right, we do have a lot of common ground.
I wholeheartedly concur with yr core point; an endorsement of the work ethic. It's just that yr original post was so concise, & deliberately worded I felt this to be a generous interpretation @ the time. I actually agree with yr view of many humans as being fundamentally lazy, pessimistic as it is.
I also agree many people have unrealistic expectations of meds; pills can't make you *happy* (happiness is self-created, with chance throwing its lot in), but *can* make some feel 'normal' (human) [this subtle but significant difference in meaning perhaps was at the root of our spat] , a baseline from which the individual has the *choice* to actively change their life for the better. Is this what you meant?
My point, & it's more important than it seems, was that quite often the role of meds is downplayed (ie. by psychologists) so that those with 'biologically-orientated' (ie me) 'depression' are denied the chance of a pop @ true 'happiness'. Had I not 'discovered' euthymia through persisting with meds, my entire life would've been a dreary sham. And I'm angry that certain unethical psychotherapists actively discouraged me from trying meds. This displaced anger found you, unfortunately.
Anyway, I cld go on all night (it's a subject that interests me). But I won't. Lamotrigine has pretty much pooped out on me, so I'm back to ball-of-hate status & wld not be a healthy influence on this board. Allied to the fact that severe mental retardation is making me feel increasingly ignorant (I can't read, or assimilate information), and detracts from my ability to express myself; this is principally why I've decided to take a back seat on posting.
Thanks,
J.PS- a correction: I *am* jealous of you; jealous that you have the capacity for remission! I can only dream...hope it happens for you.
Posted by Cam W. on June 14, 2001, at 19:28:26
In reply to Kissing and making up » Cam W., posted by JahL on June 14, 2001, at 16:46:50
Jah - Hang in there guy. If there is any way that we can help here, you know not to hesitate to ask.
I'll let you in on a little secret. None of my writing is deliberate, nor concise. I basically shoot from the hip. Sometimes the gun is loaded, sometimes it's not. That is another thing that I like about this place; if I do say anything wrong, I can be assured that someone will catch it and correct it.
Take care and keep posting (good, bad, ugly, etc.) - Cam
This is the end of the thread.
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