![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on November 29, 2019, at 16:06:19
i was reading some articles, about addiction and dopamine. I read a certain part that addicts, they have a low dopamine part, and to make up for that they use ... you know stimulants, nicotine, dopamine releasers, gambling, opiates, i read throughly that seeking a dopamine increase. That non-addict persons have stable flow of DA in the nerve synapse, and people with low DA seek things to stimulate it. Personally smoking, nicotine i don't smoke anymore, i vape, but it's like i have have nicotine to release dopamine, if im not on any type of releaser, im depressed and feel emotionally flat, looking for something to get me out of it. But that's what i read in addiction, there's seeking dopamine release for pleasure or euphoria to make uop for the lack of it. There's some people who don't take any medicines, nothing, no dopamine releases, like napoleon in history, they had a full will power to do things, and were full of charge, they didn't use anything, but dopamine was involved for getting things done. I think that is one documented find, of low dopamine in certain parts of the brain amoung people who seek stimulation or pleasure inducing activies
Posted by jay2112 on November 29, 2019, at 20:25:17
In reply to low dopamine linked to addiction, posted by rjlockhart37 on November 29, 2019, at 16:06:19
> i was reading some articles, about addiction and dopamine. I read a certain part that addicts, they have a low dopamine part, and to make up for that they use ... you know stimulants, nicotine, dopamine releasers, gambling, opiates, i read throughly that seeking a dopamine increase. That non-addict persons have stable flow of DA in the nerve synapse, and people with low DA seek things to stimulate it. Personally smoking, nicotine i don't smoke anymore, i vape, but it's like i have have nicotine to release dopamine, if im not on any type of releaser, im depressed and feel emotionally flat, looking for something to get me out of it. But that's what i read in addiction, there's seeking dopamine release for pleasure or euphoria to make uop for the lack of it. There's some people who don't take any medicines, nothing, no dopamine releases, like napoleon in history, they had a full will power to do things, and were full of charge, they didn't use anything, but dopamine was involved for getting things done. I think that is one documented find, of low dopamine in certain parts of the brain amoung people who seek stimulation or pleasure inducing activies
I see what you are saying, and having worked in addictions, is certainly true. But, it sounds a bit like the whole low-serotonin fad that came out with Prozac. Yes, dopamine, serotonin, norepinephrine, all have something to do with addiction, but the exact question is, what. Pump up enough neurotransmitters in our brain and nature will regulate. Neuroscience and psychotropic medication is ancient...we should be MUCH further ahead than we are. We should be looking at how the CBD and Opioid drugs work in mental illness, for it is really, voiceless pain. The intersection between mental illness and physical pain chemically and physically is quite tight.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on November 29, 2019, at 21:42:27
In reply to Re: low dopamine linked to addiction » rjlockhart37, posted by jay2112 on November 29, 2019, at 20:25:17
i think the opiode epidemenic in the US, has caused discreet addiction many people don't admit. This is the thing, there's some people who go to a doctor who are truely in chronic pain, bad, and they use non opiod drugs, even if the pain doesnt go away, not saying leaving the person miserable, but they keeps away controlled substance.
Then there other doctors where you can just have moderate pain, and be prescribed many opiods, hydrocodone is the most common, just for moderate pain, they don't have problem with writing a script. And i think it's become wide spread, in rehabs and mental institution, they avoid all controlled substances in treating conditions, except using benzodiazepines like lorazepam, and clonazepam in severe cases. I was in a psych hospiral having bad anxiety, she put me on buspar, and told her my anxiety im shaking, which i truely was, it was like adrenal relaase stress, then there another guy who just layed around and was loaded on lorazepam from the doctor. I was juts like....if they see addiction tendicies they avoid them. THis guy was just laying around like beer belly and watched tv, had hardly any anxiety... waited for his next ativan, I having adrenal relase. It's like they ignored everything that i twas telling them about anxiety, they just said ... and then said we're gonna keep on the same meds, not change. God....
but it's doctors that are opioid friendly and over compassionate with their patients, when other doctors leave a person in chronic pain with just high dose of ibuprofen
but i think addiction can start with being given a med that induces pleasant feelings, and then you wanna stick with it. They have no problem with keeping them on opiods for years. But when i was in high school, i had very low dopamine, and truely, i could not do my work, it was just falling behind and prescribed adderall 30mg, and that was not working, so started bumping the dose up really high, not really to get high but to get ... being able to function and having active dopamine transmission.
it's complciated, addiction can start with having low dopamine, and then doing gambling or over pleasurable activies to make up for it, then there's you try a drug and like you it, and you can't stop taking it.
addiction clinics for me never worked because i would go through their programs, i know how rehab works, i've been in it 3-4 times, i know how to passv through and leave. Main thing is low dopamine, frequently have to smoke or do something to boost my dopamine levels or i get in a depressed state. Addiction clinics don't understand that, so i know how go through it and do their programs, and leave.
it' a complicated issue in the world
Posted by jay2112 on November 30, 2019, at 13:58:16
In reply to Re: low dopamine linked to addiction, posted by rjlockhart37 on November 29, 2019, at 21:42:27
Yeah, I have worked around addictions as a social worker for many years. I have seen people on opioids, when psych meds were added, jump right up on functionality. Opioids are far, far from being "evil", and the "just say no" faction spreads all sorts of non-scientific garbage. All meds should be in our set of weaponry against mental illness. Tylenol 3's will do a good job of, temporarily, jolting me out of bad depression and anxiety. My pdoc has prescribed them PRN, and they have worked well for decades. I also take Vyvanse, on top of my other BP2 meds, which helps with the retarded slowing of the depressive aspect of my illness. These meds SHOULD be available for all, and hopefully, not in my lifetime, but down the road, we will realize how demonizing all these tools/meds took away from leading a symptom-free life of mental illness. Oh, and I also take a liberal dose of clonazepam.
Posted by rjlockhart37 on December 1, 2019, at 2:28:47
In reply to Re: low dopamine linked to addiction » rjlockhart37, posted by jay2112 on November 30, 2019, at 13:58:16
we'll.....this is how addiction spectrum for a person has, they are absolutely obessed with having to have it, they will stop all daily activies to get the substnace they need. When it gets to a point where it isnt being used treat an illness, and being used as habing to have it, drug addicts usally ask for things they want, some of them need them, and some of them don't. THey just want the substance for non medical purposes to get high.
But your right, there is kinda propaganda in some systems or addiction clinics of saying it will kill you if you take it, it's propagada to brainwash people to not do it. Abstennce, medical purposes are what meds need to treat an illness, and sadly they depend on it too much, that it's taken away from them and there sent to rehab. Listen, when i was sent to rehab, it was not helpful, it was grueling and i did everything their programs said to do, but think there not effective in some cases. You go by substance dependence therapy. If you see the picture of all of it, you will see that these people are trying to get addicts off drug, for good. Yes, that is the main purpose, but it does stop them from doing them again. I don't whatever brainwash program they do to you in rehab, they label you drug seeking behavior, and have kinda of these names and mind tricks for addict behavior to patronize you
But when like a medical case where there low dopamine, envolved, use of a stimulant could be used, but when that option is abused, saying taking another dose again to avoid the dysphoria or the crash, terrible unpleasant feeling when stimulant wears off. It's tempting to take another dose, to prevent it from happening.
But basically, if someone does not take the label writing on the prescription as it is directed, it's drug abuse. Once you realize you've done that, that is drug abuse, but in someways doctors can work with the dose to make it less, and effective. When someone gets strung out and just ... abuses the hell out of all their meds, that needs rehab, and hospitalization. And i think that's one tactic they use to prevent someone from getting strung out. But the same irony is applied when that person requires or medically has a condition that is needed for a certain drugs.
A Lot of people i was in with rehab were miserable, i know how it works. I've seen people in rehab miserable becausr they had benzodiapines taken away, and we're given meds that we're considered non addictive. It in way can lower a person's quality og life, but it depends on the situation.
anyways.....i think in case where someone abuses a drug just for the feeling of it, they have to apply a system or total abstinence, and it can last a long time then relapse. That's why i think sometimes there's a lack of dopamine or whatever chemical that is required to make them feel normal.
Posted by jay2112 on December 1, 2019, at 12:39:39
In reply to Re: low dopamine linked to addiction, posted by rjlockhart37 on December 1, 2019, at 2:28:47
Don't get me wrong...I do agree with you. I just think they have demonized many drugs, when some could be very helpful. It is called 'harm reduction', and the point is not in getting a person off a drug, but keeping them safe from other harms while they use. To note, I was on Suboxone, and it made me feel horrible. Being a positive opioid user, you'd think it would have helped. I found that very strange. I think the naltrexone in it, that push and pull of opioid antagonism and agonism, has a very jarring effect.
Posted by undopaminergic on December 2, 2019, at 11:07:37
In reply to Re: low dopamine linked to addiction » rjlockhart37, posted by jay2112 on December 1, 2019, at 12:39:39
> To note, I was on Suboxone, and it made me feel horrible. Being a positive opioid user, you'd think it would have helped. I found that very strange. I think the naltrexone in it, that push and pull of opioid antagonism and agonism, has a very jarring effect.
>Naloxone, not naltrexone. It is supposed to not be absorbed sublingually, unlike the buprenorphine. The problem you had was probably with the buprenorphine itself. It is a strange opioid, with partial agonism at mu-opioid receptors, and antagonism at kappa-opioid receptors. It had no painkilling effects whatsoever for me, but (at least in combination with methylphenidate) it really helped my working memory and attention. It was the best combination I've ever been on. At first, I got mild euphoria from the mu-agonism, but I think the kappa-antagonism was the most important for me. It was mainly a nootropic for me.
Then I got deprived of both of these medications and my life was turned upside down again, as I plunged back into apathy.
Buprenorphine binds very tightly to the mu-receptors and so, it blocks the effects of other opioids taken at the same time. This is one of the main reasons it is used to treat addiction.
As for low dopamine driving people to addiction, it is true. You may think of it as being dependent on stimulants before you have taken any.
-undopaminergic
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.