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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by regisx on July 22, 2016, at 21:15:28
Z-drugs also work on Gaba receptors. I don't know if they hit the same receptors as benzos like xanax or ativan. Does anybody know this?
Does this mean if you regularly take z-drugs benzos won't work for you anymore or at least not as good as they used to?
This would really suck.
Posted by Horse on July 22, 2016, at 22:36:46
In reply to Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by regisx on July 22, 2016, at 21:15:28
The short answer is yes, and I agree that it does suck. I've found there's really no free lunch.
> Z-drugs also work on Gaba receptors. I don't know if they hit the same receptors as benzos like xanax or ativan. Does anybody know this?
>
> Does this mean if you regularly take z-drugs benzos won't work for you anymore or at least not as good as they used to?
>
> This would really suck.
Posted by SLS on July 23, 2016, at 11:16:52
In reply to Re: Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos? » regisx, posted by Horse on July 22, 2016, at 22:36:46
> The short answer is yes, and I agree that it does suck. I've found there's really no free lunch.
> > Z-drugs also work on Gaba receptors. I don't know if they hit the same receptors as benzos like xanax or ativan. Does anybody know this?
> >
> > Does this mean if you regularly take z-drugs benzos won't work for you anymore or at least not as good as they used to?
> >
> > This would really suck.I think there would be cross-tolerance to the hypnotic effects of Z-drugs and BZDs, but not to the anxiolytic effects of the BZDs. This is the result of the drugs binding to different subunits of the GABA-A receptor.
1. alpha-1 subunit is associated with sedation and hypnotic effects.
2. alpha-2 and alpha-3 subunits are involved in anxiolytic effects.
BZD = #1 + #2
Z-Drugs = #1 only
- Scott
Posted by jonhed on July 23, 2016, at 18:43:28
In reply to Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by regisx on July 22, 2016, at 21:15:28
No, their not cross tolerated.
You can switch between z-drugs and normal benzos and don't get any tolerance.
I've done it for years and years and the only thing is that when you have, let's say diazepam in your system, the hypnotic effects of the z-drugs won't work that much, but the other way around it works just fine and they are not interacting with each other.When i took zopiclone 22.5mg per night for 6 month, then switched to 20mg diazepam, i would get wasted on the diazepam.
When i ate 10mg of nitrazepam for 7 nights, i didn't feel 20mg of diazepam a bit.
So no, it's not any cross tolerance except for what i wrote about the hypnotic effects.
Kind regards / J
(this is because z-drugs are just working on benzodiazepine-receptors and are not gaba-a agonists like other benzos. and zopiclone is a positive allosteric modulator of the barbiturate site.)
Posted by regisx on July 23, 2016, at 20:59:27
In reply to Re: Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by jonhed on July 23, 2016, at 18:43:28
hi, thanks for the info.
Can you actually take benzos and z-drugs on the same day or would this cause dangerous interactions?
The problem is if I have anxiety during the day and need z-drugs at night then does this mean I can't take xanax or ativan?
And how long have you taken z-drugs in a row?
In the leaflet it says only 10 days or so.
But I have been taking them much longer now.
Before the z-drugs I used to rely on wine to be able to sleep but z-drugs are much better. wine doesn't always work and sometimes it would make me wake up during the night feeling awful. i really don't like wine anymore.
Posted by jonhed on July 24, 2016, at 10:07:40
In reply to Re: Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by regisx on July 23, 2016, at 20:59:27
> hi, thanks for the info.
>
> Can you actually take benzos and z-drugs on the same day or would this cause dangerous interactions?Absolutely you can!
> The problem is if I have anxiety during the day and need z-drugs at night then does this mean I can't take xanax or ativan?I promise you that it's no problem at all, i have done it for a long time and it's even better than take a higher dose of, let's say, xanax.
If you take 1-2mg xanax per day (or what you are prescribed) and then need a z-drug for sleep, that is very good because you do not need to up the z-drug dose so damn much as you would had needed if you took 2mg xanax per day and like 4mg ativan at night, cause they don't interact in that way.
That makes it much safer and easier to withdraw from it later on when you don't need it anymore, cause stopping 2mg xanax and 4mg ativan is way worse than stopping 2mg xanax and 20mg zolpidem i promise you!
> And how long have you taken z-drugs in a row?
> In the leaflet it says only 10 days or so.
> But I have been taking them much longer now.Before i stopped it now for about 10 days ago i had taken 15-22.5mg zopiclone/20mg zolpidem every night, and i mean every night, for 13 month :-)
(that is not to recommend, but it's not dangerous in that way, the only thing it can do because it's a short acting "non-benzo", is making you anxious during the day after like 3-4 month, and the effects stops. The withdrawal for me was much more psychological then somatic in comparison to the withdrawal symptoms you get from stopping xanax or valium.> Before the z-drugs I used to rely on wine to be able to sleep but z-drugs are much better. wine doesn't always work and sometimes it would make me wake up during the night feeling awful. i really don't like wine anymore.
Oh please stop the wine, alcohol makes your sleep so much worse than you think. You don't get that beauty-sleep that you need to function and for the brain to process the information you have gathered in during the day. Z-drugs are better then.
One tip for you is to take z-drugs for the most 7 days, and then take ONE night of, and start it again and so on.
That will help you from getting the extreme tolerance from it.The good thing about z-drugs is that the hypnotic effects are still there after one year. That you can not say about triazolam, flunitrazepam or nitrazepam at all!
And i recommend to take zopiclone instead of zolpidem cause of the longer duration time and better sleep quality under the inluence.
If you just need to fall into sleep and then you sleep all night, i recommend zolpidem.
And one more thing, less isn't always more when it comes to z-drugs cause they're hypnotic.
The normal in sweden is 15mg zopiclone or 20mg zolpidem, 5 minutes before closing your eyes. And you need to sit up when you take the pills for at least 2 minutes, and the effects of it can be absent if you have a full stomach so i recommend to not eat for at least 2 hours before you take your pills.
That makes the body more relaxed to cause if you eat right before you get to sleep, your body are working to process the food during the night when it actually are suppose to be resting.Kind regards / J
And ask more if you want, i know a lot about hypnotics and analgesics and a little less about AD's.
And it's my pleasure to answer these sort of things.
Posted by regisx on July 24, 2016, at 18:19:40
In reply to Re: Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by jonhed on July 24, 2016, at 10:07:40
Hi, thanks for the advice!
That's weird cause where I live the max dose for zolpidem is 10mg and for zopiclone is 7,5mg and in the leaflet it also says that this is the max dose!
They do not even mention taking 2 pills or more.I think I notice that zolpidem works shorter and I wake up after just a few hours. But the same thing also happened to me with zopiclone.
This sucks cause then I have to take half of a pill extra to fall asleep again.I like to chew the tabs and let them in the mouth for a few minutes. I assume they work faster this way. But zopiclone tastes awful when you swallow it. It's best to drink some juice afterwards against the bad taste.
I just hope that z-drugs don't cause dementia. The reason why I never started with benzos even though I could use them was because of fear of tolerance/addiction and also the possible link to dementia.
Posted by jonhed on July 25, 2016, at 16:24:11
In reply to Re: Do Z-Drugs cause tolerance to benzos?, posted by regisx on July 24, 2016, at 18:19:40
> Hi, thanks for the advice!
>
> That's weird cause where I live the max dose for zolpidem is 10mg and for zopiclone is 7,5mg and in the leaflet it also says that this is the max dose!
> They do not even mention taking 2 pills or more.It is here to, but i have never met even one doctor that agree with that recommendation, and they are allowed to go higher and put "(SIC!)" on the RX. Special indication.
But that's just my tip, i think they are under dosed..> I think I notice that zolpidem works shorter and I wake up after just a few hours. But the same thing also happened to me with zopiclone.
> This sucks cause then I have to take half of a pill extra to fall asleep again.Yeah, maybe you need one pill that makes your sleep better to, not just a hypnotic?
> I like to chew the tabs and let them in the mouth for a few minutes. I assume they work faster this way. But zopiclone tastes awful when you swallow it. It's best to drink some juice afterwards against the bad taste.
I just say one thing. Empty stomach.
> I just hope that z-drugs don't cause dementia. The reason why I never started with benzos even though I could use them was because of fear of tolerance/addiction and also the possible link to dementia.You will get addicted to z-drugs to for sure, it's not easy to stop with them. But far less horrible than real benzodiazepines.
And yeah, probably it will cause dementia if benzos does, it is potent gaba-substances we talking about here.But you don't need to eat them every night, if you eat them every other day, then your blood serum level is never constant and the risk of getting bad side effects are decreasing dramatically.
Kind regards / J
This is the end of the thread.
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