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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cb776 on January 16, 2011, at 7:10:59
I read that low testosterone-levels could cause depression in some males.
(http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/547830)High levels of TEST in women produce the opposite effect.(http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/724037)
On the other hand most antidepressants lowers testosterone-levels and raise prolactin. This should be ideal for women. But still it cures some men from depression.
Should there be research to create antidepressants specifically for woman and men?
Is there any connection?
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 8:02:32
In reply to How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by cb776 on January 16, 2011, at 7:10:59
I think there is some evidence that SSRIs work better in women then men. Roughly speaking, testosterone favors dopaminergic function while estrogen is serotonergic / noradrenergic.
Linkadge
Posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 12:38:55
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 8:02:32
> I think there is some evidence that SSRIs work better in women then men. Roughly speaking, testosterone favors dopaminergic function while estrogen is serotonergic / noradrenergic.
>
> LinkadgeDoes that mean that high testosterone raises dopamine levels?
Posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2011, at 13:29:28
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » linkadge, posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 12:38:55
I am female postmenopausal and use bioidentical estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. All supposed to lead to feeling better and healthier. Phillipa
Posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 15:05:51
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by Phillipa on January 16, 2011, at 13:29:28
> I am female postmenopausal and use bioidentical estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone. All supposed to lead to feeling better and healthier. Phillipa
I hope you are getting good results.
Posted by SLS on January 16, 2011, at 15:34:09
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » linkadge, posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 12:38:55
> > I think there is some evidence that SSRIs work better in women then men. Roughly speaking, testosterone favors dopaminergic function while estrogen is serotonergic / noradrenergic.
> >
> > Linkadge
>
> Does that mean that high testosterone raises dopamine levels?I haven't looked into it, but one must consider the possibility that sex hormones change membrane receptor sensitivities rather than neurotransmitter turnover. I think estrogen increases NE receptor sensitivity.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 17:04:42
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » linkadge, posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 12:38:55
>Does that mean that high testosterone raises >dopamine levels?
Actually yes, there is direct evidence that testosteron increases the dopamine/serotonin ratio.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 17:05:36
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » maya3, posted by SLS on January 16, 2011, at 15:34:09
>I haven't looked into it, but one must consider >the possibility that sex hormones change >membrane receptor sensitivities rather than >neurotransmitter turnover. I think estrogen >increases NE receptor sensitivity.
Yes, and estrogen also inhibits monoamine oxidase and serotonin transporter function.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on January 16, 2011, at 18:58:00
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » maya3, posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 17:04:42
Hi Linkadge.
> >Does that mean that high testosterone raises >dopamine levels?
> Actually yes, there is direct evidence that testosteron increases the dopamine/serotonin ratio.
Interestingly, males are more vulnerable to amphetamine-induced dopamine depletion and exhibit a higher risk factor for Parkinson's.
- Scott
Posted by linkadge on January 16, 2011, at 19:29:41
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 16, 2011, at 18:58:00
I didn't say that men necessarily had higher dopamine levels, only that increasing testosterone relative to estrogen appears to increase dopamine/serotonin (*in certain brain regions). The way that gender regulates neurotransmitters, however, is undoubtedly complex. For instance, perhaps the influence of other sex hormones would temper the effect of testosterone.
I was not aware than men had a higher risk for Parkinson's disease. However, with Parkinsons disease, the distruction of dopaminergic neurons might not really be related to the level of dopamine per se. So, even if men had higher basal dopamine levels, this might not be expected to be protective against parkinons. Actually, the inverse may be true, as the metabolism of dopamine can, in some instances, produce oxidative byproducts i.e. in a manner similar to how l-dopa may hasten the progression of parkinsons.
Nevertheless, men also have higher rates of severe treatment resistant schizophrenia. Along these lines, I think one study showed that estrogen levels are inversely related to treatment resistance in schizohprenia - that is, estrogen seems protective against schizophrenia severity.
Estrogen can be neuroprotective. SSRIs appear to reduce the neurotoxicity of high dose amphetamines, perhaps increasing serotonergic function somehow buffers against increased dopaminergic function?
I really don't know.
Linkadge
Posted by maya3 on January 17, 2011, at 11:17:29
In reply to How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by cb776 on January 16, 2011, at 7:10:59
Thanks for your responses, Scott and Linkadge.
Can one assume that women suffering from high testosterone levels plus schizophrenia might benefit from the reduction of T levels, something which may even reduce the need for APs?
Posted by PeterJ on January 18, 2011, at 16:28:47
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression? » linkadge, posted by maya3 on January 16, 2011, at 12:38:55
> Does that mean that high testosterone raises dopamine levels?Not in all brain areas, but it does in the prefrontal cortex (at least for male rats):
http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/222.long
I have been on testosterone treatment for 17 years and an activating effect is subjectively clear and related to my serum T level. This effect is increased by inhibitors of estradiol production such as anastrazole, which I recently started.
I could certainly see how too much T could exacerbate psychosis or mania and too little could worsen depression or anergia.
Peter J (frequent lurker, rare poster)
Posted by maya3 on January 19, 2011, at 7:40:49
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by PeterJ on January 18, 2011, at 16:28:47
Thanks, Peter.
> > Does that mean that high testosterone raises dopamine levels?
>
> Not in all brain areas, but it does in the prefrontal cortex (at least for male rats):
>
> http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/1/222.long
>
> I have been on testosterone treatment for 17 years and an activating effect is subjectively clear and related to my serum T level. This effect is increased by inhibitors of estradiol production such as anastrazole, which I recently started.
>
> I could certainly see how too much T could exacerbate psychosis or mania and too little could worsen depression or anergia.
>
> Peter J (frequent lurker, rare poster)
Posted by creepy on January 19, 2011, at 15:51:12
In reply to How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by cb776 on January 16, 2011, at 7:10:59
I have a friend that was suffering from chronic fatigue (which often comes from depression) and went on testosterone replacement therapy, after everything else came up negative. He did have low levels, originally.. but after a few months the added testosterone's effects diminished and he became exhausted again.
I am not sure its a good treatment for fatigue and depression even when your levels test low.
supplementing hormones may allow your own production of them to atrophy. It seems risky in the long run.
Posted by Hombre on January 19, 2011, at 20:43:03
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by creepy on January 19, 2011, at 15:51:12
There are lots of herbs that can help balance out hormone production. Many of the adaptogens work to regulate the HPA axis. The best thing for testosterone and growth hormone production is heavy lifting with compound movements, low reps, an adequate intake of protein, magnesium, C, zinc, and a good night's rest. If you can say you are doing all of these and still feel like you need T replacement, that's one for the doctors. If you aren't doing these things, then I'd see what I could do to get to the point where you could start. To me, recovery is not about suddenly feeling great, but is more about being given a fighting chance to do the work that leads to feeling great.
Posted by linkadge on January 20, 2011, at 19:33:30
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by maya3 on January 17, 2011, at 11:17:29
I don't know about testosterone reduction, but I do know that some meds directly lower steroidal hormones. Lithium directly reduces the production of DHEA which may be related to its mood stabilizing effects. I think I remember reading that zyprexa lowers DHEA too.
Linkadge
Posted by violette on January 20, 2011, at 20:24:19
In reply to How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by cb776 on January 16, 2011, at 7:10:59
I'm very curious about this - has anyone ever gone to a doctor and asked to be assessed and treated for mental health symptoms based on hormones?
I think the advice about vitamins, supplemnts and diet is notable- but
Does any of the hormonal evidence discussed here (repeatedly) actually translate to practice and feeling better? if so-by whom? a psychiatrist? your family doctor? a specialist?
thanks
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2011, at 21:10:50
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by violette on January 20, 2011, at 20:24:19
Violette I have. But it initially really wasn't for mental health. My pdoc a female suggested that some estrogen might make me feel better. Consulted and saw an anti-aging doc here that was a practicing ob-gyn and then ran osteoporosis dept at a large hospital. I asked a lot of questions and he did serrous hormone testing on me. Put me on compounded estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone all applied via cream twice a day. At the end of a few months all I had was sore boobs and some spotting being postmenopausal female this concerned as it should. So three years later haven't been using full dose maybe a third. Only thing noticed sleeping better needing less benzos and no sweating at all at night. In fact I'm cold all the time now. I am back and forth on whether to continue them or not. I get another refill tomorrow and will keep cutting down as can't justify the risk I perceive for breast cancer and others as well. That's my story. Phillipa ps so from pdoc suggestion, to antiaging doc.
Posted by morgan miller on January 20, 2011, at 21:22:14
In reply to Re: How is testosterone connected to depression?, posted by violette on January 20, 2011, at 20:24:19
>Does any of the hormonal evidence discussed here (repeatedly) actually translate to practice and feeling better? if so-by whom? a psychiatrist? your family doctor? a specialist?
I've read of several accounts of people feeling much better and much happier after starting hormone replacement therapy. I'm guessing that you would find a good endocrinologist that really knows what they are doing and they would be in contact with your psychiatrist.
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