Shown: posts 1 to 25 of 46. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 15:04:01
Hello,
In the midst of a severe depression, I was prescribed oxycodone for pain. The results were an almost complete lifting of an almost 2 decade depression - I was left alert, calm, stable, happy...NOT manic, drugged, or "high" feeling.
I read every article I could find on opioids and depression (and comprehended the academic/neuropsychological texts better than I have ever remembered comprehending anything) and started taking Burprenorphine (subutex). At the time, I had also been taking wellbutrin and lexapro. At first, the bupe. offer the same exact results as the oxycodone.
So, I began my slow tapers from wellbutrin and lexapro. All my problems began to slowly return... along with other typical lexapro withdrawals symptoms (brain zaps, nausea).
However, after the withdrawals should have stopped, the Depression was back in full force.
So, after a while, I went back on the wellbutrin and lexapro, thinking I needed to replicate the exact circumstances of when the opioids worked.
Nothing.
After months and months, I finally weaned off the subutex.
Again, I find myself in a place of total despair. I can't help thinking about the NORMAL way I felt when the BUPRENORPHINE worked and that I need that feeling back (I'm not looking to get high...never was...never did.). I took oxycodone for 2 weeks before being switched to subutex (so I did not have the typical experience of an "addict").
I know people wrote on here about taking bupe. for years and it working wonders. It worked wonders for me....but only about a month.
And for those of you who don't know, they prescribe bupe. to people trying to stop being addicted to opioids for 2 basic reasons:
1. There is a ceiling effect - you don't build up a tolerance and need more and more for the same effect.
2. It does not provide you with a "high" feelingI just put in my order to LDN(naloxene sp?)...but past that....
HELP?!?!
Does anyone have any idea why the bupe. stopped working??
I plan on trying it again because I believe that this is the chemical my body needs in order to function.HELP!
(I been on over a dozen regualar psychotropics and I could have bought a small country with the amount of money I spent on supplements. On a scale of 1-100, the greatest relief I ever got on a psychotropic or a supplement was a 9. On buprenorphine...99)
thanks,
sunkistcat79
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 15:24:16
In reply to BUPRENORPHINE, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 15:04:01
What kind of help do you need?
- Scott
Posted by Sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 17:27:56
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine » sunkistcat79, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 15:24:16
I need to know why the bupe. stopped working and HOW it can work again....or how something else can have the same effect.
Posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 18:27:44
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 17:27:56
> I need to know why the bupe. stopped working and HOW it can work again....or how something else can have the same effect.
I wish I had answers to your questions. I don't. I am curious to see what other people have to say.
Have you tried tramadol? It acts as a combination of opioid and antidepressant. Chemically, it is closely related to Effexor.
- Scott
Posted by jedi on January 8, 2009, at 3:34:23
In reply to BUPRENORPHINE, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 15:04:01
Hi sunkistcat79,
I've been on Nardil for most of the past 12 years. It does stop most of my atypical depression. However, every time I've been prescribed narcotics for pain, my depression has completely lifted.My question to you. How did you get a doctor to prescribe burprenorphine? Thanks for any help.
Be well,
Jedi
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 11:58:00
In reply to Re: BUPRENORPHINE » sunkistcat79, posted by jedi on January 8, 2009, at 3:34:23
> Hi sunkistcat79,
> I've been on Nardil for most of the past 12 years. It does stop most of my atypical depression. However, every time I've been prescribed narcotics for pain, my depression has completely lifted.
>
> My question to you. How did you get a doctor to prescribe burprenorphine? Thanks for any help.
>
> Be well,
> Jedi
>Jedi,
I have a very alternative psychiatrist. After being on the oxycodone for about a week, I had compiled enough knowledge, date and studies to make my case to my doctor. However, he said he already knew that some people need opioids to be okay. He told me to keep taking the oxycodone for another week or so to get chemically addicted and then I could start the bupe.Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many others psychiatrists out there like that. Where do you live? (this doctor is in Massachusetts, USA) Also, you can check out www.naabt.org. It's all about bupe. They also have a doctor matching system. I believe that if you can't go in and tell them you are addicted to opioids, it will be much more difficult to get a script for bupe, unfortunately.
I would arm yourself with some academic research (Bodkin 1995 Harvard...I believe) when trying to make your case. Also, talk to the people on that forum. There was a very active thread on depression a while back.
good luck.
sunkistcat79
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 12:01:01
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by SLS on January 7, 2009, at 18:27:44
Have you tried tramadol? It acts as a combination of opioid and antidepressant. Chemically, it is closely related to Effexor.
>
>
> - ScottI haven't tried tramadol but I have been on effexor and it had absolutely no effect.
I will run it by my doctor though. Heck, when the bupe worked, I had enough mental energy and motivation to research it myself....i only care so much (very little) anymore...
-sunkistcat79
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:06:51
In reply to BUPRENORPHINE, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 15:04:01
>Does anyone have any idea why the bupe. stopped working??
How did it stop working? Suddenly? Slowly?
Are we talking about opiate tolerance here?
With other opiates it felt (to me) as if tolerance was total when blood levels of the opiate were even.
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:09:53
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 12:01:01
Here's some stuff to read......
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:16:10
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:09:53
I read they did the mouse-on-hotplate experiment with the herb withania and it attenuated to development of opiate tolerance. It also seems to help with withdrawal. There may be some connection there.
You can search for it. I found this
and this
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:19:29
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 12:01:01
>Heck, when the bupe worked, I had enough mental energy and motivation to research it myself....i only care so much (very little) anymore...
With undopaminergics post, the links are down *the bottom* of the page.
The links are the relevant things for you.
Posted by jerrypharmstudent on January 8, 2009, at 15:12:12
In reply to BUPRENORPHINE, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 7, 2009, at 15:04:01
I'm a big fan of opioids for depression. My doctors finally listened to me about 4 years ago and put me on hydrocodone along with my other depression meds. the effect was basically the same as yours. BUt I never grew tolerance and never abused them (not saying you did). UNfortunately my new doc was weary of keeping me on them because he was nervous about the state auditing him, etc, etc., so he took me off them. Weird thing is I went off cold turkey after being on them for 4 years and didn't have any withdrawal.
There's alot of info out there regarding using buprenorphine for depression. I wish I had more info for you.
Jerry
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 17:10:51
In reply to Re: BUPRENORPHINE, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:06:51
> How did it stop working? Suddenly? Slowly?
Are we talking about opiate tolerance here?
>
> With other opiates it felt (to me) as if tolerance was total when blood levels of the opiate were even.The buprenorphine stopped working slowly.
From my own personal research, as far as tolerance, the whole point of bupe. is that you don't need more and more and more to get the same effect (you may have to increase your dose to find your working dose, but once you get there, you can stay on it indefinitely - they call it the Ceiling Effect). This is one of the reasons why it's market is for people who are dependent on opioids.After doing some more research, my current hyppothesis is that my endorphins are so absurdely low (every aspect of my life points to this as well) that I just need a very large amount of bupe. It worked at first but then I needed more and never got up to my proper dose (different than the general meaning of "increased tolerance".)
Think about this. The first time I ever took an opioid, I took it for about 2 weeks and, like everyone else, I always needed to increase my dose, but this experience never changed: 30 minutes after taking my dose (prescribed for pain), I felt sleepy/high-ish. This wore off in about 45 mins. and left me clearer, happier, calmer, and leveler than I HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF.
Doesn't it make sense that upon taking the opioid, there was a relatively high amount of the chemical in my system (a system that had been very devoid of endorphins) and it went into overload (hence- feeling high). Most people feel high for hours, but this wore off for me because soon, the chemical leveled out and instead of having an above-average amount in my system, now I just have an average amount.
I hope that made sense. I'm feel I'm having a hard time articulating myself well.
Thanks for your post....
What do you think of what I just wrote?
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 17:26:49
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:16:10
I wanna say something funny about the connection between a mouse on a hotplate and his flicking tail and my situation...but i DONT want you to AT ALL think I'm demeaning or putting down your time, help and suggestions.
It just seems funny, ya know? And I browsed through the abstract by didn't internalize much. Maybe thats why I'm making fun of it- personal insecurities.
Please dont' be offended. I honestly and sincerely appreciate your post!
A story:
I once rescued a field mouse that my cat tried to murder. It died, but I got the bug...rather...more mice. I soon had a colony and gave them all bible names. Simon, Noah, Miriam. Guess how old I was when I did this?Connection? Upon seeing the intial hurt mouse, my extreme sensitivity kicked in and couldn't stand that it was hurting. I tried to save it.
Extreme sensitivity....low endorphin level.thanks for your posts.
-sunkistcat79
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 19:56:20
In reply to Re: BUPRENORPHINE, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 17:10:51
I have never taken bupe, but I am familiar with methadone, morphine and the rest.
>Think about this. The first time I ever took an opioid, I took it for about 2 weeks and, like everyone else, I always needed to increase my dose, but this experience never changed: 30 minutes after taking my dose (prescribed for pain), I felt sleepy/high-ish. This wore off in about 45 mins. and left me clearer, happier, calmer, and leveler than I HAVE ANY RECOLLECTION OF.Well, yes. I know exactly what you mean.
>Doesn't it make sense that upon taking the opioid, there was a relatively high amount of the chemical in my system (a system that had been very devoid of endorphins) and it went into overload (hence- feeling high). Most people feel high for hours, but this wore off for me because soon, the chemical leveled out and instead of having an above-average amount in my system, now I just have an average amount.You may be right. I don't know
>But my guess is this, FWIW.
Whenever an opioid is taken in such a way that plasma levels are even, tolerance becomes almost total.
With bupe there is a kappa opioid antagonism (?) which I don't understand.The link undopaminergic put up about methadone withdrawal is certainly stunning if true. It will be in my post below this.
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 19:58:44
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 14:09:53
This isn't really what you are thinking about but it may have some bearing on it.
It is, at any rate, remarkablehttp://www.drgeorgedavidson.com/ebixa_getting_off_methadone.htm
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 20:03:14
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 19:58:44
I spent a year going from 1mg/d methadone to zero.
It was absurdly difficult for me.
Therefore I find the results of this study amazing.
They were on big doses of methadone, I think.
>About two thirds of the patients lowered their methadone dose by a third each week and were off methadone after three or four weeks. About one third of the patients showed signs of Protracted Abstinence Syndrome when they got down to 10 or 15 mg of methadone and had to slow down their weaning process. Almost all patients got off methadone completely in six weeks or so, but a few had to go slowly due to 'Protracted Abstinence Syndrome' and were lost to follow-up. All patients who could tolerate the memantine (the vast majority) reported remarkably reduced Acute Withdrawal Syndrome and all patients reported a remarkably changed attitude to opiates - they didn't 'care' about them any more. Memantine didn't seem to prevent "Protracted Abstinence Syndrome'
>All reported a remarkable and immediately noticeable effect of the memantine. They no longer cared about taking their methadone dose! Instead of their daily methadone being a daily priority (often the first thing they thought of on waking in the morning) they found they werent particularly interested in taking methadone any more, and only took it because they were afraid they might get withdrawal symptoms if they stopped it completely. There was no urgency about taking it, and they often left in until later in the day. They were amazed by their changed attitude to methadone, and were astounded that it didnt matter' any morel. Several people forgot to take their methadone on several occasions and only took it when they started to get some withdrawal symptoms. A few missed one days dose completely on several occasions and didnt get withdrawal until the second day without methadone. One man forgot (so he said) to take his methadone for six consecutive days and only resumed it when he started to get mild withdrawal symptoms on the seventh day!
Posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 20:09:07
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 20:03:14
Anyway, as regards your situation, I wonder if a drug that helps with withdrawal may also be a drug that helps prevent the development of tolerance.
Memantine is said to do this with amphetamine.
Perhaps some clever person here will know more.
Posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:10:27
In reply to Memantine, posted by Sigismund on January 8, 2009, at 20:09:07
theres much more evidence that mem prevents opioid tolerance than that is prevents AMP tolerance, actually. if nothing else, make sure you're not mag/zink deficient.
i do think ashwaghanda might well be useful.
also, i think most antidepressant increase mu receptor density as a downstream effect.
-d/r
Posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 4:58:10
In reply to Re: Memantine, posted by desolationrower on January 9, 2009, at 2:10:27
>they werent particularly interested in taking methadone any more, and only took it because they were afraid they might get withdrawal symptoms if they stopped it completely. There was no urgency about taking it,
This isn't because they were dazed out of their minds?
How much memantine were they taking?
Posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 5:09:09
In reply to Re: Memantine, posted by Sigismund on January 9, 2009, at 4:58:10
>This isn't because they were dazed out of their minds?
>How much memantine were they taking?
Does it matter?
Posted by Jimmyboy on January 9, 2009, at 15:25:05
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 8, 2009, at 17:26:49
I thought the buprenorphine usually works more through its kappa antagonism pathway ( thus lowering dynorphin and not stopping dopamine in the VTA, etc.) as opposed to its mu aonist actions. Like I said on the alternative board , give Low dose naltrexone a try if you can. I found it to boost endorphin levels alot. So much I had to taper down to a tiny dose. Adding strenuous exercise and I felt like I was high as a kite on opiates. wow.
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 9, 2009, at 22:17:33
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine » sunkistcat79, posted by Jimmyboy on January 9, 2009, at 15:25:05
I'll be taking my first dose of LDN tonight.
Unlike how I usually am, I have purpousely tried to do very little research. I dont want to "know what to expect" and then be let down or feel a placebo effect for a few days.I'll post if I feel anything....
Posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2009, at 14:14:57
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by sunkistcat79 on January 9, 2009, at 22:17:33
I've done LDN. It is rarely a miracle cure for anyone, but it does seem to provide some sort of benefit in almost 90% of people who try it...pain, fatigue, immune system, anxiety, mood, sleep, whatever...lots of things that vary from person to person.
I would not at all expect it to have the knockout punch of oxycodone or bup or anything like that. But it could work in an indirect way to smooth things out for you. It will bring on withdrawals from opioids if you are not washed out from them. In any case, most people who see benefits on LDN..which is most people..see them in weeks and months, not days. So don't expect the immediate hit of a pain killer. Whatever improvements you see are likely to creep up on you over time to where you don't notice from day to day you are getting better until you look back and see that you have. Again, weeks and months.
Seems like things were cool with Oxy. Maybe could have just stayed with that? Obvious addiction issues though. People's lives, marriages, and careers have been ruined by the inability to control dosage intake. I guess if someone had the ironclad discipline to take it as a med in non-changing specified doses, as well as partial holidays here and there to refresh any tolerance happening, it might be a way to go.
Posted by sunkistcat79 on January 11, 2009, at 10:34:23
In reply to Re: Buprenorphine, posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2009, at 14:14:57
Warning - this is long and I get a little intense during it. Please don't interpert anything I say as an insult to the writer. I am just frustrated with my situation. I greatly appreciate your comments, advice, and kindness. REALLY!
> I would not at all expect it to have the knockout punch of oxycodone or bup or anything like that. But it could work in an indirect way to smooth things out for you. It will bring on withdrawals from opioids if you are not washed out from them. In any case, most people who see benefits on LDN..which is most people..see them in weeks and months, not days. So don't expect the immediate hit of a pain killer. Whatever improvements you see are likely to creep up on you over time to where you don't notice from day to day you are getting better until you look back and see that you have. Again, weeks and months. "
Unfortunately, if LDN does work a little bit after weeks and months, it might get me from spending my life in bed and at the computer to....i don't know...going to the store some more and maybe tolerating hanging out with a few people (if anyone even wants to). I am in DIRE need of a major chemical change.
It's bull...if I was suffering this way due to some insulin problem, I'd get what I needed and wouldn't have to bribe and convince doctors/people. Someone who takes insulin is "addicted" to it, right?
The weird thing with oxycodone is that after stopping Bupe (for AT LEAST a month - and much longer) I tried taking oxycodone on a few occasions. I took up to 15 mg and it basically had NO effect whatsoever. This tells me that my body "remembered" from when I first took it (possibly as a result from having an extremely low level of endorphins?) and now requires much more to have any effect whatsoever.
Anyone have any ideas why between 5 and 15 mg of oxoycodone (with apap) would have no effect on me (with at the VERY least a month after discontinuing all opiates)?
If I'm on LDN and try oxycodone, what could happen? How long would I need to be off of LDN to have an effect from oxycodone?
> Seems like things were cool with Oxy. Maybe could have just stayed with that? Obvious addiction issues though. People's lives, marriages, and careers have been ruined by the inability to control dosage intake."
The "funny" thing is, that my life, relationship and career are, at present, completely nonexistent (ruined). It seems that if I took oxycodone, at the very worst, I would feel good sometimes and have no life, relationship or career. Please don't take this as being rude to you. I am just annoyed by my situation - which you are only just offering advice and kindness.
"I guess if someone had the ironclad discipline to take it as a med in non-changing specified doses, as well as partial holidays here and there to refresh any tolerance happening, it might be a way to go. "
I'M THAT PERSON! I decided in 8th grade that I had an addictive personality and that I needed to put some controls on myself. I decided to not smoke cigarettes or drink when I was sad. I have smoked 1 puff of a cigarette in my life. And prior to 2 years ago, I haven't drunk when I was sad (and I have never passed out, had an hangover, thrown up from drinking - and there have been many times where I have gone months without having a drink or thinking either way about it). I finally started to try to drink when sad, but it's usually about a week between deciding I should start drinking and when I remember to get around to it. I bought a six pack a few days ago and still have half of it left.
Also, in 8th grade, I thought I was eating too much, so, to control my eating (for other reasons as well) I stopped eating meat for about 10 years. A few years ago, someone told me gluten can lead to depression so, THE VERY NEXT DAY (and for the next 2 years - except for a few Challenges) I discontinued eating ANY form of gluten (essentially the only food I ate outside of what I made in my home was salads - with my own dressing). During this time, I had a blood test which suggested I was allergic to dairy and eggs. So, for almost a year, I ate NO TRACE of dairy, eggs, or gluten. This takes a huge amount of self control (esp. for someone like myself who eats for comfort when sad - which is very very often).Similarly, I think I was very controlled about my oxycodone dose. I only raised it when absolutely necessary - I was actually scared to raise the dose. I even thought about the concept of taking a "holiday" to keep tolerance in check.
However, I think that whatever caused my "tolerance" to bupe would cause a similar effect with oxycodone (maybe why oxycodone has had no effect on me recently?). Remember, I had the SAME effect from bupe as I did with oxycodone (except for about 45 minutes of feeling sleepy/high on oxycodone).
I very much want to try bupe again, but if i remember correctly, you need to be in withdrawl already in order for the bupe to not make you sick. Also, I have a lot of bupe. but it's over a year old.
I'm afraid to ask my doctor (the psychiatrist who originally prescribed me bupe after being on oxycodone for a week) because he might say no and then i feel I have no where to turn to...and I'm very very depressed and unmotivated already.
Again. THANK YOU for your comments...and anyone else.
Sorry this was so long and so "rambly".
I guess I have *some* motivation - enough to keep writing here.I just KNOW how I felt when the opioids worked - and it's the way functioning/happy people feel most ever day. I NEED that!!! And if I sound like an addict, well, that's because what causes many addicts to be so is some chemical deficiency of some kind. If we all had the chemicals we needed - well....you know the rest of that sentence.
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