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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mike1975 on October 28, 2008, at 15:54:40
Hi everybody!
I could never imagine that valproic acid might treat alzheimer:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081027101346.htm
Is valproic acid good for memory?
Mike
Posted by linkadge on October 28, 2008, at 18:56:39
In reply to Valproic Acid treats alzheimer, posted by mike1975 on October 28, 2008, at 15:54:40
I honestly don't know how this is called a discovery. The reason being that a similar study reached the same conclusion about 5 years ago. Namely, GSK-3b inhibitors like valproate inhibit the formation of the plaques associated with alzheimers.
Lithium and omega-3 are GKS-3b inhibors and they have the same activity. As does turmeric.The problem is that valproate is not a selective GSK-3b inhibitor. It also not a memory drug.
GKS-3b inhibitors have no intristic memory enhancing effect. They will not enhance or improve memory in healthy subjects and likely not those in general dementia either.
This study only suggests that valproate can inihibit the development of the plaques and tangles. I.e it may have some preventitive effect.
However, some studies show that valproate (and other anticonvulsants) have neurotoxic potential as well. Valproate (and other anticonvulsants are associated with memory impairement. Valproate inhiibts PKC which can slow the formation of new memories. Some studyes also suggest that long term use of valproate in epilepsy is also associated with subtle but progressive cognative deterioration.
If you are really afraid of developing alzheimers, I would use DHA and turmeric. Both of these are likely as strong in terms of their ability to slow plaque formaiton, but they are much safer.
Linkadge
Posted by Phillipa on October 28, 2008, at 20:39:19
In reply to Re: Valproic Acid treats alzheimer, posted by linkadge on October 28, 2008, at 18:56:39
Sounds almost like a Catch 22. Phillipa
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 28, 2008, at 23:11:28
In reply to Re: Valproic Acid treats alzheimer, posted by linkadge on October 28, 2008, at 18:56:39
Linkadge.bro
Look, I dont mean to be putting you down. You are knowledgeable for sure. But, how come you paint people in such a dark corner when it comes to meds? For example, Epival. It has helped me *tremendously* speciously in those high-flying times before atypical antipsychotics. I understand the new sustained released (over 24 hours I think) version is supposed to be even better in a number of ways. But that was an *excellent* med for me, and if I didnt have the atypicals, or if the atypicals failed me, I would go on it and a combo of something like topamax. You also pick on Prozacwhich has saved my life, really, after Effexor w/out a mood stabilizer caused my bp 2 symptoms to go way out of control. Coming up on 40, I have some hormone irregularities, and am getting excellent treatment from my endo. We may like have a solution in a week or two.
So, for this BP2er, Prozac and atypicals plus a bit of mood stabilizer work very well in controlling my symptoms over 8 years now. I have had my rough patches, heck we all do, but we adjust what needs, and move on. Why can you not admit meds do quite a bit of good for a fair number of people? What, am I some freak or something? Sure the meds are far from perfect. But, you gotta remember Churchills speechWe will NEVER surrender..!!. And boy, was he a man who knew depression and anxiety!Anyhowjust IMHO
Jay
Posted by seldomseen on October 29, 2008, at 8:01:25
In reply to Re: Question, Link.... » linkadge, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 28, 2008, at 23:11:28
I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to weigh in on this issue if I may. I do not presume for a moment to speak for Linkadge. These are my thoughts only.
I completely understand people's frustrations and antipathy for psych drugs. I've also come to think that it is entirely appropriate that they express it here (I mean as long as it is reasonable and doesn't belittle other's experience with drugs and, to me, saying drug X sucks doesn't change *my* experience with Drug X).
For some, I know at least for me, drugs represented a lot of hope. *Maybe, just maybe, there is something out there that will make me feel better.* So you reach out into that hope. Sometimes the drugs work and that is a wonderful thing. I'm lucky. Prozac worked for me.
But sometimes they work for a little while and stop.
Sometimes they don't work at all and may even make things worse.
I can only imagine the disappointment at having that little bit of hope snuffed out. Then to have it happen again and again and again. People get on the drug merry go round. I know I would be a little jaded and think people have earned the right to express that frustration.
It's heartbreaking to read, but the desire to be well is so hard to dampen. I'm braced and more than a little impressed at the resilience and courage of the so called "non-responders" here.
My god, we are all in this mess together more or less.
Seldom
Posted by Midnightblue on October 29, 2008, at 19:06:30
In reply to Valproic Acid treats alzheimer, posted by mike1975 on October 28, 2008, at 15:54:40
When I took it it caused horrible memory problems.
MB
Posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 31, 2008, at 13:08:35
In reply to Re: Question, Link...., posted by seldomseen on October 29, 2008, at 8:01:25
Ya, I can absolutely say I know where you are coming from. I've been through the med merry-go-round for over 15 years, and I remember thinking there was no hope and it was so bad when a med seemed to make me worse. And it still does happen sometimes. (Even if it had some good benefits.) As in my case also, I am just asking folks put in IMHO, YMMV, etc...etc. I have found that in my absolute best of times, I don't really feel like posting to here, (and that has been the case with other poster's) hence I think there may be a bit of slant or bias in the negative side *sometimes*. That is not to take anything away from people (like me, too) who have experienced horrid side effects, and lots of nasty stuff.
So, it's all just IMHO, YMMV, etc..:-)Jay
Posted by linkadge on November 1, 2008, at 12:06:22
In reply to Re: Question, Link.... » linkadge, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 28, 2008, at 23:11:28
>Look, I dont mean to be putting you down. You >are knowledgeable for sure. But, how come you >paint people in such a dark corner when it comes >to meds?
Um, I don't recall casting an evaluative judment on divalproex. I simply stated some truths regarding the drug. It is associated with cognitive impiamment. It is hard on the liver and yes some studies do show it has neurotoxic potential.
I don't care how good a drug makes you feel it can still be toxic. I am not telling people not to take a particular drug, but people should be informed about toxiciities.
Sorry that the truth bums you out.
My mom suffered liver damamge from epival use. There are real risks.
I am just saying, why would you want to take epival to prevent alzhemiers plaques when there are other compounds such as omega-3, which likely have the same effect?
Posted by linkadge on November 1, 2008, at 12:09:00
In reply to Re: Question, Link.... » linkadge, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 28, 2008, at 23:11:28
I don't consider your comments a put down.
Oh, and one more thing.
The problem is that the drugs themselves can impair the very judgement that is necessary to weight pros and cons.
For instance, when you're tranqued out on zyprexa, you just loose your concern about issues like weight gain, diabeties, cholesterol, heart problems etc.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 1, 2008, at 12:14:42
In reply to Re: Question, Link...., posted by seldomseen on October 29, 2008, at 8:01:25
I am amused that you think my responces are due to being jaded (?)
I am feeling ok right now without meds thank you very much.
Nevertheless, why should I care if *you* are ingesting divalproex? Its your liver, its your pancreas, is your brain!
I mean really. Go ahead!
I don't think that recomending against the use of divalproex for Alheimers prevention is crazy.
Thats all I can say.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on November 1, 2008, at 12:22:23
In reply to Re: Question....I agree » seldomseen, posted by Jay_Bravest_Face on October 31, 2008, at 13:08:35
I wouldn't consider it a negative slant. I would consider my view of things to be grounded and fact based.
Like I mentioned before, when a med makes you feel better, its really hard to think that it might not be good for your health.
You see the exact same thing with smokers and stoners (and most drug users for that matter). They like what the drug does and their brain finds ways to justify its use. "Pot is good for you....man".
I understand, its just a coping mechanism. I can't blame you for it.
Linkadge
Posted by JadeKelly on November 1, 2008, at 22:34:48
In reply to Valproic Acid treats alzheimer, posted by mike1975 on October 28, 2008, at 15:54:40
> Hi everybody!
>
> I could never imagine that valproic acid might treat alzheimer:Hello, my comments are strictly based on experience, no science whatsoever. I agree that its shocking that valproic acid could be used to treat alzheimers. One family member takes 1250mg a day for bi-polar and its exhausting, he can't concentrate, and I believe it causes cognitive impairment (for him).
Paradoxically, my father takes it for (active) alzheimers, along with aricept and seroquel. I've seen seroquel in action too. How Depakote and seroquel would help Alzheimers is beyond me. NOTE: Seroquel's effects I think are largely based on dose. Also, my Dad sees a reputable Dr. and I trust he's getting good care.
Btw-you weren't talking about taking any of mentioned drugs for preventitive Alzheimers, were you?
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081027101346.htm
>
> Is valproic acid good for memory?Not that I've seen, I def would not take it unless needed medically! Check out Selegiline, not as an MOAI, but in a very small amount may do what your looking for. Ask your Doc tho, don't know what dose causes dangers that MAOI's do. I think you take a drop or two evey day.
>
> MikeBest of luck!
Jade
Posted by linkadge on November 2, 2008, at 9:43:18
In reply to Re: Valproic Acid treats alzheimer )) Mike, posted by JadeKelly on November 1, 2008, at 22:34:48
Folks, the point of this study was really not to suggest that valproate itself is going to treat Alzheimers.
Valproate is *NOT* currently used to treat Alzheimers. If it is used in Alzheimer's patients it is used for its sedative and/or mood stabilizing effects. I.E. it is just being used to control behavioral symptoms associated with Alheimer's or dementia.
Seroquel is also *NOT* used to treat Alzhimers. Studies show that atypicals speed the progression of cognative decline in Alzheimers. If it is being used, it is used for behavioral control and/or emotional symtpoms that are associated with the disease.
The study that was done was in mice. Keep in the mind that study only showed that valproate reduced the formaiton of plaques and tangles associated with the disease. There is no evidence that it can actually do anything for the disease after the plaques have formed. And also, as mentioned, the drug has nasty cognitive side effects of its own which may totally outstrip any Alzheimers preventitive effect.
The real point of the study was to suggest that researchers can look for other, more selective GSK-3b inhibitors to do the same thing in a more palatable way.
Linkadge
Posted by JadeKelly on November 2, 2008, at 14:22:25
In reply to Re: Its not going to be used for alzheimers, posted by linkadge on November 2, 2008, at 9:43:18
> Folks, the point of this study was really not to suggest that valproate itself is going to treat Alzheimers.
Understand.
>
> Valproate is *NOT* currently used to treat Alzheimers. If it is used in Alzheimer's patients it is used for its sedative and/or mood stabilizing effects. I.E. it is just being used to control behavioral symptoms associated with Alheimer's or dementia.
>
> Seroquel is also *NOT* used to treat Alzhimers. Studies show that atypicals speed the progression of cognative decline in Alzheimers. If it is being used, it is used for behavioral control and/or emotional symtpoms that are associated with the disease.Its a real shame that the disease causes behaviors that then require treatment with drugs that impair memory and cognitive ability in the short AND long term.
>
> The study that was done was in mice. Keep in the mind that study only showed that valproate reduced the formaiton of plaques and tangles associated with the disease. There is no evidence that it can actually do anything for the disease after the plaques have formed. And also, as mentioned, the drug has nasty cognitive side effects of its own which may totally outstrip any Alzheimers preventitive effect.
Question: If Alzheimer's is in the early stages, isn't it conceivable that the Depakote could still have benefit on plaque formation? Or are you saying its too late then.
>
> The real point of the study was to suggest that researchers can look for other, more selective GSK-3b inhibitors to do the same thing in a more palatable way.Do you know of any?
Thanks for all the info. It helps.
Jade
>
> Linkadge
>
Posted by linkadge on November 2, 2008, at 15:19:22
In reply to Re: Its not going to be used for alzheimers, posted by JadeKelly on November 2, 2008, at 14:22:25
Question: If Alzheimer's is in the early stages, isn't it conceivable that the Depakote could still have benefit on plaque formation? Or are you saying its too late then.
Its possible, but without human studies the net effect is really uncertain. Valproate has so many effects. Ion channel inihibition tends to dull the intelect as does its gabaergic effect. It is also a HDAC inhibiitor which can affect neuronal placticity in certain ways.
>Do you know of any?
Yes the omega-3 fatty acid DHA inhibits GSK-3b quite well and does the exact same thing for plaques in mice. You can look up alzheimers + DHA in google. And, the beneifit is that DHA has cognative enhancing effects even in mice without alzheimers. DHA has no ion channel blockade like valproate. The problem is that greedy drug companies want a chemical they can patent to administer to patients, when safer agents with superior activity are already available.
Linkadge
Posted by JadeKelly on November 2, 2008, at 17:15:53
In reply to Re: Its not going to be used for alzheimers, posted by linkadge on November 2, 2008, at 15:19:22
This is the end of the thread.
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