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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by clipper40 on January 13, 2008, at 20:37:07
In reply to Re: Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement » bulldog2, posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 18:59:58
I'm sure there's something very special about it because there are too many wonderful responses for it to be a placebo. Still, that in itself doesn't make it a drug.
As I said in a thread above, it used to be sold in health food stores. In my opinion, calling it a drug is arbitrary in this case.
Whatever you call it, I'm very glad it's out there and that so many people are getting such good results with it!
Posted by linkadge on January 13, 2008, at 20:43:46
In reply to Re: Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 17:46:46
>What percentage?
I don't know, but I don't think that data is securely established for deplin either.
>My recommendation is to try Deplin first if you >prefer to enhance your chances of responding to >it as an augmentor.
I'm not saying don't try it. I'm just saying that a number of studies have linked low serum folate to antidepressant resistance. If deplin is not an option for you, it folic acid might be worth a try.
>I guess we'll see the clinical separation >between these two substances as clinical usage >increases.
Well thats the idea. However, the issue of patentability with undoubtedly cloud matters.
>For what it is worth, I have tried mega-doses of >folic acid before. I experienced only >flatulence. I have tried Deplin. I am responding >much better 2 months subsequent to its >introduction. That's good enough for me to >indicate there is something special about taking >Deplin over folic acid.
Perhaps. Deplin also has a name and a specific indication. Folic acid is just a $2 vitamin.
Linkadge
Posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 21:13:24
In reply to Re: Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement, posted by linkadge on January 13, 2008, at 20:43:46
> > What percentage?
> I don't know, but I don't think that data is securely established for deplin either.What would you need to see before declaring Deplin something more therapeutic than folic acid?
> >My recommendation is to try Deplin first if you >prefer to enhance your chances of responding to >it as an augmentor.
> I'm not saying don't try it.
>
> I'm just saying that a number of studies have linked low serum folate to antidepressant resistance. If deplin is not an option for you, it folic acid might be worth a try.Why would Deplin not be an option? Is it prohibitively expensive or just certified not to be effective enough as to indicate that folic acid should be the first choice?
I know what I know. Deplin works for me. Folic acid does not. I am somewhat familiar with the bioavailability of L-methylfolate and its participation in methionine metabolic cycles in the brain as well as its pharmacokinetics. If you prefer more detailed explanations as to what are the differences between Deplin and folic acid, Google makes a wonderful resource to find them. Certainly, your own research will be more convincing than my words. I would suggest using Google to learn more about folic acid and L-methylfolate dynamics.
What do you think about the "methyl trap" theory?
> > I guess we'll see the clinical separation >between these two substances as clinical usage increases.
> Well thats the idea. However, the issue of patentability with undoubtedly cloud matters.
Who cares? The stuff exists. I don't care either how or why other than to secure its continued availability.
> > For what it is worth, I have tried mega-doses of >folic acid before. I experienced only >flatulence. I have tried Deplin. I am responding >much better 2 months subsequent to its >introduction. That's good enough for me to >indicate there is something special about taking >Deplin over folic acid.
>
> Perhaps. Deplin also has a name and a specific indication. Folic acid is just a $2 vitamin.Again, I would encourage you to do your own investigation. The answers to your questions are available and quite simple - even for a layman like me.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 13, 2008, at 23:47:26
In reply to Re: Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 21:13:24
Scott. You may not be a scientist but could be but you have studied for so many years for your depression to me you are very knowledgeable about medications. That's how I feel about you. Love Phillipa
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 7:54:36
In reply to Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement., posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 8:05:29
I think it is a matter of how you look at it. I don't think that Deplin is a drug.. Deplin is classifed as a medical food. I guess it depends on what you view a drug as. Folic acid converts to L-methylfolate in the body..Deplin is already converted L-methylfolate.. Matter of opinion.
Deplin doesn't work for me.. I have not noticed any improvement at all with it..It does work well for some people but not me.
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 8:01:22
In reply to Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement., posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 8:05:29
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
check out this article.. the fda classifies dephlin as neither a drug or a supplement.. so according to them we are both wrong
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 9:30:16
From The INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF PHYSICIATRIC MEDICINE MTHF is marketed in the United States as a medical food also called Deplin, which contains 7.5 mg L-methylfolate and is available by prescription only. According to the Food and Drug Administration, a medical food is different both from a drug and from a food, and is defined as a food that is formulated to be consumed orally
...under the supervision of a physician and which is intended for the specific dietary management of a disease or condition for which distinctive nutritional requirements, based on recognized scientific principles, are established by medical evaluation.57
Medical foods are required when dietary management cannot achieve the specific nutrient requirements. Treatment with MTHF seems to be safe, apparently has few if any side effects, and is generally less expensive than augmenting with a second antidepressant. Further research is necessary to determine the exact priority this approach should be given in treatment algorithms for major depression. HERE IS THE LINK>>>>>
http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
There are more links but they basically say the same thing.
Posted by SLS on January 14, 2008, at 9:35:44
In reply to CNS research Deplin Link » SLS, posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 8:01:22
> http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
>
> check out this article.. the fda classifies dephlin as neither a drug or a supplement.. so according to them we are both wrong
My motivation for starting this thread was to diffuse the notion that Deplin is nothing more than an expensive folic acid. My calling it a drug would hopefully change people's perspectives regarding the physiological and clinical advantages of Deplin when compared to folic acid supplements. To the best of my knowledge, L-methylfolate is not found in human foodstuffs. I imagine there are good reasons for the FDA to establish the category of "medical food" such that a prescription is required for its dispensation. If someone takes a dozen 7.5mg pills, are there any untoward effects? One 7.5mg pill of Deplin produces many times the biological availability in the brain as folic acid such that one would need to ingest a hundreds of folic acid to equal 1 pill of Deplin. Besides being the biologically active metabolite of folic acid, it readily crosses the blood-brain barrier.Regardless of the semantics, Deplin has pharmacological actions to induce the rate of synthesis of the monoamine neurotransmitters. Folic acid does not do that.
How much different is the relationship between folic acid and Deplin versus primidone and phenobarbital? Both are metabolized by the body before becoming biologically active.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 14, 2008, at 9:39:56
In reply to deplin is neither a drug or a supplement, posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 9:30:16
Hi star008.
Thanks for this...
- Scott------------------------------------
> From The INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF PHYSICIATRIC MEDICINE MTHF is marketed in the United States as a medical food also called Deplin, which contains 7.5 mg L-methylfolate and is available by prescription only. According to the Food and Drug Administration, a medical food is different both from a drug and from a food, and is defined as a food that is formulated to be consumed orally
>
> ...under the supervision of a physician and which is intended for the specific dietary management of a disease or condition for which distinctive nutritional requirements, based on recognized scientific principles, are established by medical evaluation.57
>
> Medical foods are required when dietary management cannot achieve the specific nutrient requirements. Treatment with MTHF seems to be safe, apparently has few if any side effects, and is generally less expensive than augmenting with a second antidepressant. Further research is necessary to determine the exact priority this approach should be given in treatment algorithms for major depression. HERE IS THE LINK>>>>>
> http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
>
>
> There are more links but they basically say the same thing.
>
Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2008, at 10:54:28
In reply to Re: Deplin is a drug, not a nutritional supplement » linkadge, posted by SLS on January 13, 2008, at 21:13:24
As long as it works for you, thats all that matters.
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 14, 2008, at 10:58:21
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » star008, posted by SLS on January 14, 2008, at 9:35:44
There are many nutritional supplements that you would get sick if you took a dozen of.
The original point I was trying to make was that the "category" of a particular substance does not equate to how it will help sombody.
I still think omega-3 is the bomb. Hopefully it won't be pulled and called a drug.
Linkadge
Posted by Jamal Spelling on January 14, 2008, at 11:58:19
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link, posted by linkadge on January 14, 2008, at 10:58:21
Just my cynical observation, as a layperson, but it seems as though the psychiatric establishment will only endorse effective non-pharmaceutical treatments as an *adjunct* to standard pharmaceutical treatments. From the way methylfolate works, its therapeutic effect does not necessarily rely on the presence of other ADs, although it is being promoted strictly as an adjunct to prescription ADs.
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 14, 2008, at 12:34:01
In reply to CNS research Deplin Link » SLS, posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 8:01:22
> http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
>
> check out this article.. the fda classifies dephlin as neither a drug or a supplement.. so according to them we are both wrongAhhh. Thanks for the link. With it, I was finally able to find an FDA document on the subject. For some reason, keyword searches using 'medical food' on the FDA website had failed to get any hits.
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/medfguid.html
The key item in this document, IMHO, is #7. It appears that a manufacturer is free to declare a substance a medical food, without FDA approval being required, provided it meets the criteria in item 2. If that medical food is patented, that effectively restricts the market.
Lar
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 15:49:34
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » star008, posted by Larry Hoover on January 14, 2008, at 12:34:01
yes.. all about the money... of course..
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 15:56:54
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » star008, posted by SLS on January 14, 2008, at 9:35:44
I did find that the L-methylfolate, (spelling) is found in some leafy green vegetables but i don't know how much you would have to eat. Overdosing would not be cool but that isn't a reason to regulate it..I think it was more about money, myself.. You can overdose on tylenol and lots of ther OTC meds, vitamins, etc..
There was some stuff on alternative where people said they were taking a form of it but it got pulled off the market.
Posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 15:58:46
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link, posted by linkadge on January 14, 2008, at 10:58:21
Unfortuantely some company tweaks the product and proves it's uses and they get the patent for it.. money money money
Posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2008, at 19:55:07
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » linkadge, posted by star008 on January 14, 2008, at 15:58:46
So are you now saying it's really not a med as so far last two days I felt better on half a pill. Getting really confused again???? Phillipa ps what do they mean by a disesase depression? And why feeding tubes? Okay I'm stupid.
Posted by star008 on January 15, 2008, at 0:31:51
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link, posted by Phillipa on January 14, 2008, at 19:55:07
Let me know where you saw the feeding tube thing and the disease depression and maybe i can explain. I will try to explain deplin better for u tomorrow.. it is late and i gotta sleep;)
Posted by Jamal Spelling on January 15, 2008, at 5:08:14
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » Phillipa, posted by star008 on January 15, 2008, at 0:31:51
Mr Jones: "So, Jeeves, what food will we be serving our guests tonight?"
(enter Jeeves, the middle-aged acerbic English butler)
Jeeves: "For their starters course, I thought we might prepare a platter of Deplin, followed by..."
Posted by Phillipa on January 15, 2008, at 18:24:12
In reply to Medical food, posted by Jamal Spelling on January 15, 2008, at 5:08:14
Just another link sent to me on Deplin. Thought I'd post it as hate to see all supplements become meds. Just my thought. Phillipa
http://www.healthcentral.com/depression/c/49/16751/folate-deplin/
Posted by Cecilia on January 17, 2008, at 21:36:11
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » star008, posted by Larry Hoover on January 14, 2008, at 12:34:01
> > http://www.cnsspectrums.com/aspx/articledetail.aspx?articleid=1267
> >
> > check out this article.. the fda classifies dephlin as neither a drug or a supplement.. so according to them we are both wrong
>
> Ahhh. Thanks for the link. With it, I was finally able to find an FDA document on the subject. For some reason, keyword searches using 'medical food' on the FDA website had failed to get any hits.
>
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/medfguid.html
>
> The key item in this document, IMHO, is #7. It appears that a manufacturer is free to declare a substance a medical food, without FDA approval being required, provided it meets the criteria in item 2. If that medical food is patented, that effectively restricts the market.
>
> Lar
>
This is scary, Larry. No wonder there is no real info about Deplin, like side effects or studies done, on its website. I still don't understand how they were able to legally get the patent when FDA approval isn't even required. Cecilia
Posted by Cecilia on January 17, 2008, at 21:53:53
In reply to Medical food, posted by Jamal Spelling on January 15, 2008, at 5:08:14
> Mr Jones: "So, Jeeves, what food will we be serving our guests tonight?"
>
> (enter Jeeves, the middle-aged acerbic English butler)
>
> Jeeves: "For their starters course, I thought we might prepare a platter of Deplin, followed by..."Followed by a sampling of every SSRI, then a fish course of the finest salmon oil capsules. (Organic flaxseed substituted for vegetarians). Then a few Zyprexa and Remeron tablets to build up an appetite for dessert of hot fudge sundaes topped with whipped cream and a sprinkling of Lunesta and Ambien for a good night's sleep. For an early arising for the morning fox hunt, breakfast will be expresso with Ritalin and Dexamphetamine to taste, cream and sugar optional. Cecilia
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 17, 2008, at 22:03:45
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link, posted by Cecilia on January 17, 2008, at 21:36:11
> This is scary, Larry. No wonder there is no real info about Deplin, like side effects or studies done, on its website. I still don't understand how they were able to legally get the patent when FDA approval isn't even required. Cecilia
The synthesis of L-methylfolate, and/or producing it so that it's stable in tablet form, is what is patented. It was only once they realized they could make more money from it as a medical food that they took advantage of existing regulations in the Orphan Drug Act, that cover the whole medical food thing.
Lar
Posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2008, at 23:35:00
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » Cecilia, posted by Larry Hoover on January 17, 2008, at 22:03:45
Bottom line to me does it work for depression? As I have it? Phillipa and is it safe in that high a dose?
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 19, 2008, at 14:20:48
In reply to Re: CNS research Deplin Link » Larry Hoover, posted by Phillipa on January 17, 2008, at 23:35:00
> Bottom line to me does it work for depression? As I have it?
It works for some people. I'm sure you'll let us know if it works for you.
> Phillipa and is it safe in that high a dose?
I can't imagine how it could hurt.
Lar
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