![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 178. Go back in thread:
Posted by pseudoname on June 1, 2006, at 21:55:29
In reply to Re: Strong comment » willyee, posted by Crazy Horse on June 1, 2006, at 21:30:51
> He started to get irritated w/me and said.."I wouldn't be saying that too loud if i were you." Think he was trying to cover his *ss..
Yeah. My pdoc said the only reason she was willing to try an opioid with me for depression was that, "I figure *you* won't sue me if you get addicted."
Must be my mousy demeanor! :-D
Posted by Phillipa on June 1, 2006, at 22:00:40
In reply to pdoc liability » Crazy Horse, posted by pseudoname on June 1, 2006, at 21:55:29
Wish I had your doc as I had to take percocet for the first few days of my broken elbow and my husband it was the first time he had heard me laugh in years. First time I ever took an opiod. Wish I could write my own script . How does that med that is for opiod addicts work? Does it make you feel the same way the percocet dit for me? Just took one each night. Love Phillipa
Posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 23:01:08
In reply to Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 13:45:19
I appreciate the responses,and i am surprised i really was expecting more of a argument in oppostion to my feelings.
Reading the various posts,ill try to answer what i can,
first,one poster explained the difference between myself and a street junkie is.......unlike a street junkie im not getting high or buzzed.
Well my response to that is i no longer feel im above them,i feel instead they are just uneducated,and many i believe dont know about nuero chemicals,dont have acess to a computer,all they know is they dont feel right,and so they self medicate.And i do know and have seen first hand people who take what we consider "recreational" drugs,alcholol,pot,opiods etc and do not get high or blasted.
As i stated my brother prob has social issues as i do which i believe run in my moms side of the family,and he holds down a very succesful job,he is pitying me now trying to help me,not the other way around.
He has a car,a apartment,a social life etc,i have less than half of the things he has and when i look at his life and when he comes here so upbeat,i want to just break down.
He is able to be reliead on in emergenycys to be there by my family,im the one known as the shaky unstable one,im the one who can no longer hold a job,no longer hold a social life,i have half the things he has.
Drugs are not a wonder answer period,but there are defintaly people who can use what we deem as BAD drugs theputicaly,or at least to the same exent we use pharm meds.
On the same note,there are many people who do get buzzed off pharm meds,it goes both ways,many people will work there docs till they have a combo that simply zombies them out,ive seen this.
So i guess my point is in the long run to believe a drug is better because it went through a six week fda trial,and is prescribed,is in my own personal opinion falling into the box the industry wants us to be in,nice and tight.A mind altering drug is a mind altering drug,nothing changes that.The thing that makes the difference is how the individual taking it,be it script or non,uses self control in its use.
People with abuse history and personality will likly abuse any drug what so ever.
I am not anti-drug,or pro drug,i just feel lied to and decieved into using them.I wish i knew more before i did,cause in all honesty i truly dont believe i would have.Also last i see a comment about counsleing,here is my view on that,if we are told by the industry that we are dealing with pyhsical CHEMICAL disturbances in the brain and thats why we need these drugs,then what logic does on the same hand stating we also need TALK therapy as well.It to me lacks rational thinking.
If its a chemical issue,and u know this and sure of it,fine,but then dont try to convince me that i also need therapy,no other pyhiscal condition,ESPECIALY a neuroligcal one,i.e sizures,migraines,brain tumors,alzhiemrs,demntia etc will benifit from talking,so how does the conclusion that depression a "brain imbalance" is the one exception that will.
Oh i beielive the answer is talk therapy can make pyshical changes in the brain,come on are we really to believe this?
Can a autsic child change there brain patterns from talk therapy?Cna a migraine sufferer find reliaf from therapy sessions?
This form of thinking is absurd,and feeding into it is what allows this industry to get us in both ways,for the medication chage,and for the therapy charge as most offices require both a therapis and MD to be seen.
This whole therapy/drug combo lacks any logic,im sorry but it does,a broken leg is a borken leg,no matter how many times u talk about it,a dementia patient is a demtia patient,because something is happening in the brain,and talk therapy is not a logical medical treatment.
If depression/anxiety and emotional disorders are truly chemcial illness,than it is down right dangerous and unethical to have a paitent told to use talk therapy,when drugs is what they truly need to help them.
Now again im not saying there is no value in talk therapy,i think talk therapy can be a great thing,i dont believe u need a professional for it,as i dont believe u can STUDY the mind and behaviour of a person as this is something far to unique and precious,however whether it is a professional or simply a close friend,letting things off ur chest,and out can help termondously for some people,this is not limited to any form of emotional disorder,but on the same note not everyone wants or needs to reflect on there feelings,this is an invidual thing,for some digging into a persons past can help,for others it can cause tremdous trauma.
I wouldent mind taking these drugs if i dident feel so betrayed latly,the way i have been treated by ER,my pharmacy,p docs,etc when they were the ones who introduced me to these drugs in the first place has truly firghtened me to death.I dont need therapy,i have no underlying emotional issues,i wasnt abused,etc,my issue is my mind is such a scrambled mess from drug use i can function as a normal person anymore,and talk therapy cant do a lick for this.
I dont know who to trust any more!
Posted by Glydin on June 1, 2006, at 23:35:19
In reply to Re: Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 23:01:08
I can understnd your reasons for feeling as you do. I believe our opinions are driven by our individual experiences. In some regard, they make up the filters in which we view situations.
My experiences have not been yours. I feel very comfortable with what the truth is for me and that is head meds have increased my quality of life and not decreased it. I've been fortunate to have a pdoc who I do believe knows more than I ever will or will ever care to.
I can't argue at all that "mode of action is unknown" is true of ALOT of meds. Not just head meds but for me, it's a plan that works and I believe we can ONLY absolutely know what's going on with ourselves.
We can get understandably militant, bitter, and frustrated - and I've had ALOT of years to cultive that attitute myself but it only served to diminsh and further decompensate me as I sought NO treatment for some of the very reasons that folks cite for hating and lamenting the treatments they were introduced to. Not being treated was not a good option for me. In the end, I think it boils down to needing good treatments that work.
Posted by lymom3 on June 1, 2006, at 23:57:48
In reply to Re: Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 23:01:08
I will argue with you a little willyee. I fail to understand why you can lay all the blame on chemical imbalances, drugs etc without any culpability on your part. Do you not think that your negative, defeatist attitude adds to your problems? I will not debate at all that there are chemical imbalances but at the same time if you think that your lifestyle, your outlook on things don't affect the way you feel then I think you are too far into computers and hardwiring of the brain etc.
I have a stepdaughter who is a PhD and runs a clinic for autistic kids and with therapy they CAN get better. They may never be perfect, but I've seen some become functional. It takes work with the kids and parents that are devoted to helping them.
The feeling that I get from some of your posts is that you don't think for a minute that you can ever be better. Go ahead and blast me if you'd like or correct me where I'm wrong. Give yourself a break and allow for the possibility that talk therapy and lifestyle changes could actually help you.
Posted by CEK on June 2, 2006, at 0:52:00
In reply to Re: Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 23:01:08
Willyee, you're on a roll today! I don't blame you because I am seeing things as you are. I have these kind of rants going on in my head daily but when I try to let any of it out to the people in my family they just think I get frustrated too easily, or that I get too mad at something a doctor or hospital has done and that I just take it too far. Screw 'em is what I say. They are not me and are not going through what I am. They're not having to lay their lives in someone else's hands. Someone else that doesn't give a crap about you, only the pay for seeing you. We pay out all this money to these doctors, therapists, whatever and they are guessing on how to treat us. My pdocs have told me so. And what sucks about it, is that they aren't even listening to half of what we say! If you ever question it, ask for a copy of your records. That's a joke! Half of the problems you're having probably won't even be listed in them, and then there will probably be some that you never even mentioned thrown in there. I went into the hospital on 4/29-5/5 because I honestly did not want to live feeling the way I do anymore. I ranted on about this experience on babble before so I won't put anyone through it again. But here's the thing, I asked for a copy of my records and got them today. Most of it you couldn't read, but the parts that I could read were bs. They didn't listen to anything that I told them! They'll focus on one thing and go with that and never address the rest of it. There was a section where the person who was filling out this paperwork was suppose to check off all of the problems or symptoms I was having and they only checked off a third of them! How can they treat something if they don't even know what they are treating!?! Even my own pdocs recent records didn't state exactly what I told him. He also noted that I had suicidal thoughts but no plan. That was bs to cover his own butt I guess, because I told him how I have planned the way to kill myself! He just made me promise him that I wouldn't do anything to myself, that I would call him or seek help. Yeah, ok. That's exactly what I needed to make sure that I don't kill myself. And what gets me is that if you don't walk around like what a person thinks a "typical crazy person" walks around,looks and acts like, nobody really thinks anything is wrong with you. I went to see a lawyer a couple of weeks back to talk to him about workmanscomp.(I had my breakdown and became this bad after months of mistreatment from my boss and 2 coworkers and had a real bad go with them on 1/24/06,started to go to pieces at work and then fell apart at home.) (Which by the way no pdoc or hospital ever mentions this in my records or even wants to discuss it because I suffered from depression and was being treated for it for 6 years. Yet I was holding it together until this.)Before I went to see this lawyer, I showered and threw on a t-shirt and some track pants and gym shoes. No make up, didn't even dry my hair.(I drove with the windows down to dry it.) Believe me, I was no beauty queen. This guy tried to treat me like there was nothing wrong with me! He had the nerve to tell me that he has seen people with my diagnosis before and I didn't look like they did. He said I was dressed nice(ok if he says so)my hair was fixed,(wind blown does it for him I guess)and that I seemed like a very intelligent woman. He said that he thought I needed to go back to work because it would take my mind off of my problems and make me feel better. If I've ever come close to hurting someone, it was then. He didn't know me or my condition or what I was going through. Yeah, I took a shower before I saw him because I'm not going into public nasty! I never went around town in track pants and a t-shirt, without my hair done and make up before. Yet, I looked fine to him,just because I wasn't a nasty, dirty mess, slobbering and needing someone to talk for me! Doctor bills, hospital bills, prescriptions, and not to mention the disability insurance taking their time on paying me has put my family in a major financial crisis. So far, all the money has been wasted because nothing has helped so far. If I could go back to work, I would. Who wants to live this way? I can't even take care of my house and children much less be able to handle the stresses of work. Each day is a battle to stay alive yet he could look at me and think all was aok. I don't even think my pdocs really take me seriously at times unless I'm bawling. I told my husband that I don't need to try to control the way I feel in public anymore. Crap! I don't want everyone to look at me and say,"eeewwww,look at her, she's nasty and acts like a psycho." I think I ought to start going into the doctors office looking as bad as I feel. Maybe then they'd notice that something was really wrong. (only problem with that is that my husband wouldn't come with me anymore because he wouldn't dare be seen with me looking like that.) And Willyee, you talked about your brother being the one the family turns to, in a way be thankful that they do this while you're not well. I'm the one mine calls on over every little problem no matter how bad off I am. My mother and my sister dump everything off on me and want me to tell them what to do to fix it. Crap, I can't fix my own problems right now and I surely can't handle worrying about theirs. I've always done the handling of the bills in my house and the stress of it is part of my suicidal problem. If I leave them up to my husband, they won't get paid or will be paid late and screw up our credit. There's no one for me to dump my load on. Like you said earlier, no one to trust. I have to be in control of things or else I just can't stand it. These last 5 months of having to put that control in someone else's hands is horrible! I don't trust the doctors at all! But where else can you turn? I've tried therapy, but my therapist said until we get my meds right, that we're just spinning our wheels. I've waisted $3000.00 on therapy in the last 4 months for nothing. CBT, cram it is what I say. I don't care how many different ways my therapist can tell me on how not to look at things so negatively, I still do, because that's how I feel. Talking to him didn't change that. I got more therapy when in the hospital this last time talking to another patient there then I have ever paying a therapist. I know this rambled and is very long. I'm sorry. I just felt the urge to rant with you. When I get this way I can't sleep and I have to get it out somehow. I get you completely, and you won't get any arguements out of me on how you feel on things. I'm just as disgusted as you are. Oh and the original doctor that started me on the Effexor 6 years ago and has been trying different ADs on my all these years, has finally turned her back on me since I've gotten so sick. She was the one that acted like she knew what she was doing yet she didn't even know exactly what she was treating. She knew about the rapid mood swings and all the rest, yet kept on pumping me full of ADs and never referred me to someone who knew how to treat me. I trusted her.I'd seen her for 8 years as my regular doctor, now that I'm in the shape I'm in I can't hardly even get an appointment with her for anything or even a call back when asked for her to call me. Now I don't even have a GP anymore. All I know Willyee is that there must still be some fight left in us or else we wouldn't even care anymore. My thoughts are with you, Cara
Posted by Bonnie_CA on June 2, 2006, at 2:40:12
In reply to Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 1, 2006, at 13:45:19
Willy,
All I know, is that after my non-success in the past few months, it really hurt when I, in a vulnerable moment, asked my husband if he still wanted to have kids with me. He said he didn't know. I felt very angry and betrayed by doctors in general. No doubt that I needed medicine, but the screw ups in my medication has now put doubt into my husband's mind about my ability to be a mother. That really hurts. Probably in a similar way to how it bothers you when hospitals and pharmacists are looking at you like you're a junkie when you tell them you need a drug.
I sometimes wonder if the real motive behind all these drugs was to help us or make "them" money. They're getting rich and I'm more dependent than ever. Is the dependency just a necessary evil, or the real purpose of the medication? I suppose I will never know.
And I concur, it's ridiculous to think that a pdoc could possibly get a good brain profile in 20 minutes. I hate my medical insurance, because it's one of those all inclusive in-house ones, where I can only see their doctors (Kaiser). I wish we'd go back to Blue Cross so I can choose an effective doctor instead of the one that I'm stuck with through the insurance I have. I have zero confidence in my pdoc at Kaiser, and I feel powerless to switch.
I'm rambling. I don't even know if what I'm writing has anything to do with the original post. I'm just going to stop now. :-\
Posted by jedi on June 2, 2006, at 4:08:03
In reply to Re: pdoc liability » pseudoname, posted by Phillipa on June 1, 2006, at 22:00:40
> Wish I had your doc as I had to take percocet for the first few days of my broken elbow and my husband it was the first time he had heard me laugh in years. First time I ever took an opiod. Wish I could write my own script . How does that med that is for opiod addicts work? Does it make you feel the same way the percocet dit for me? Just took one each night. Love Phillipa
Hi Phillipa,
IMHO a lot of opiate addiction is just self medication for depression. Depression runs very deep in my family and I have had several first-degree relatives who have died from drug abuse. It really isn't the opiate that kills the addict, it is the criminal lifestyle. In a controlled, structured setting many of the opiates would be very good antidepressants. I'm like you, when I am prescribed opiates for pain, I have an almost immediate lifting of my depression. Methadone and buprenorphine are both opioids used as substitutes for heroin. The treatment of addicts with these medications removes the criminal element from the addiction. My guess is they probably help the addict's depression also. I'll have to look up some studies on this.
Take care,
Jedi
Posted by joslynn on June 2, 2006, at 8:42:36
In reply to Re: insert carrot thingy ;-)Wiley, posted by CEK on June 1, 2006, at 17:08:01
> One night during a fight about quiting drinking, he threw in my face that I was no different than he was. He said that I had to have my antidepressants (like they were a street drug) and he drank to make himself feel better. I told him there was a big difference. (Boy, it made me so mad that he said this to me.)
My father, a recovering alcoholic who has had several relapses, has said pretty much the same exact thing to me several times. He seems to get quite a bit of satisfaction out of saying it. I used to try to defend against this, but now I just say "hmm." It's not worth it to argue with him. If he wants to think that, he can, I don't care anymore.
It's kind of funny to me that it's ok for him to drink and smoke 3 packs of cigarettes a day, but not ok for me to take lexapro. (Not that it's his decision or I need any agreement from him.) He will rant and rave about how "everyone's on meds, what's wrong with these people" while smoking a cigarette and isolating in the house all day yelling at the TV and saying "same old sh**t" about his life. Yet he wouldn't dare take an antidepressant. And that is his choice. But somewhat ironic.
Posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 9:58:41
In reply to Re: Strong comment » willyee, posted by lymom3 on June 1, 2006, at 23:57:48
Lol blast you,i would never blast anyone,youre not wrong,ur not right,neither am i,its just simply a big mess and all there is are opinions,which is why im careful not to project the image that im either pro,nor con drugs,im not,i just have unresolved issues with the powers that be.
Im actualy a nice guy,as long as u stay away from me romanticaly im one of the nicest people youll meet,its just the ones i get involved with emotionaly tend to leave not liking me much,guess like that sienfeld episode im a "bad breaker upper" if anyone watches that show
Posted by pseudoname on June 2, 2006, at 10:34:26
In reply to Re: pdoc liability » pseudoname, posted by Phillipa on June 1, 2006, at 22:00:40
Hi, Phillipa.
> How does that med that is for opiod addicts work? Does it make you feel the same way the percocet did for me?
Yeah, that's the one I take: buprenorphine (Subutex) is usually given to opioid addicts in recovery. I've never taken any other opioid, so I don't know how it compares. I don't feel buzzed or high on it at all. On it, I'm just not depressed, and my usual depressive train of thoughts doesn't occur. My usual train of thoughts is like a train that runs off a cliff! Those bad thoughts don't happen for me on buprenorphine and my mood is dramatically improved without the dulling or flatness people can get on SSRIs.
Bupe does have a black-market street value, but I think it's to people who abuse other opioids. I don't know if anyone would abuse bupe alone.
It's a darn shame that doctors are so reluctant or afraid to prescribe it for depression. I guess I'm really lucky. (Finally!)
Posted by Glydin on June 2, 2006, at 11:16:50
In reply to Re: Strong comment, posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 9:58:41
> Im actualy a nice guy,as long as u stay away from me romanticaly im one of the nicest people youll meet,its just the ones i get involved with emotionaly tend to leave not liking me much,guess like that sienfeld episode im a "bad breaker upper" if anyone watches that show
~~~ You are a nice guy, you have the right to your feelings. I think folks mean well and are trying to be helpful.
Posted by CEK on June 2, 2006, at 11:45:40
In reply to Re: Strong comment, posted by Glydin on June 2, 2006, at 11:16:50
I don't think any of us have ever thought that you weren't a nice guy. You're just a guy needing to get a load off of his chest and have someone or something pull through for you to help you get better. I wish you the best.
Posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 17:32:55
In reply to opioids for depression » Phillipa, posted by pseudoname on June 2, 2006, at 10:34:26
That was a drug i had believed could help me get off parnate and stablize me,my pharmisct friend said being in Va where we are,and how tightly he personly knows that drug is kept,i could forget it,and he never says things like that.
Posted by linkadge on June 2, 2006, at 20:02:11
In reply to Re: opioids for depression, posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 17:32:55
Unless you've been off meds for a fair length of time, you don't really know if you are addicted or not.
Attitudes can change *dramtically* when somebody decides to quit. Even people who know me on this board, know there was the AD me, and me now.
The AD me was all pro-AD. I felt they had saved my life, and would never have said a bad word about them.
A lot of people will have to be on these meds for life, not because they need them for life, but because withdrawl is too excruciating. The longer you take AD's, the more your brain moulds itself around them, the more it cannot function normally without them.
Depression does not last forever. It almost always remits. Patients are told they will need to take their meds for life not because they actually do need them for life, but because doctors feel its easier to tell them that, then have to watch them withdrawl.
I am a totally different person off the meds. I've never beed so bitter, so jaded, so hatefull and so depressed. 10x worse than I ever knew before medications, and its prolonged too. My serotonergic system just doesn't know how to work on its own anymore. People wonder why I am so obsessed with studies about possible serotonergic neurotoxicity, well this is why. When you feel like this, you start to wonder what in hell you did to yourself.
Linkadge
Posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 23:09:29
In reply to Re: opioids for depression, posted by linkadge on June 2, 2006, at 20:02:11
I dont know,ur a man of logic,what if there is something wrong with certtain peoples brains,a true imblance somewhere,and i dont mean what is explained in those zoloft commercials,i mean one that we are not full understanding of.
I know i was 100 percent med free for over a year,and i suffered anxiety and depression during that time as well,not to mention extreme ocd like tendcies.
I dont believe my drugs are designed to actualy treat anything in particular,and yess chances are im more scared to death of being off them than anything else,but i do know for a fact that drugs like klonopin have saved my job in the past,and that is fact,and i wasnt craving it then,i was instead experiancing extreme axniety to the point i couldent function properly.
I dont contribute that to klonopin in any way,instead feel klonopin actualy helped me.
I can understand ur dismay at drugs,with the way the industry has behaved and still does its a reminder for myself how big cigaretter companies behave.I wish i felt i will be around when we make a real breakthrough in emotional illnesses,which i do think we will,however i truly doubt itll be in my time and unfortunatly i believe i will fight this for the remainder of my life,on drugs or not.
Whether or not to use the drugs,and if they are onlymakeing my situation that much worse,well thats the issue.
I think u should feel proud if u were able to get off the drugs ,however id be left to ask why do u still post here,can i assume its cause like all of us u like to be around people who understand some feelings u have that dont add up?Im just asking here,i dont know how well ur doing as far as ur mood.
Posted by linkadge on June 3, 2006, at 1:16:06
In reply to Re: opioids for depression, posted by willyee on June 2, 2006, at 23:09:29
Hey, I'm looking for answers too. I'm not too proud to admit that.
It is possible that there is something physically or chemically different about a depressed person's brain. We don't really have any evidence to suggest that the current medications are acutally correcting that abnormality.
After having gone through the withdrawl and all, and see how the drugs have changed me, I just feel I'd be foolish to go back on another SSRI etc.
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on June 3, 2006, at 4:25:29
In reply to Re: opioids for depression, posted by linkadge on June 3, 2006, at 1:16:06
> Hey, I'm looking for answers too. I'm not too proud to admit that.
>
> It is possible that there is something physically or chemically different about a depressed person's brain. We don't really have any evidence to suggest that the current medications are acutally correcting that abnormality.
Hi Ya,Of course the SSRI's SSNRI's MAO's TCA'a, ETC DON"T 'correct' brain chemistry-they chemically alter it, sometimes making the wearer of that brain feel better-often not. The human Brain is far to complex for 'correcting imballances' in medicine~2006.
That said, and getting back onto the title topic, I'm no Opi' addict, but have experimented with Morphine IR@SR, Dihydrocodeine, Codeine, in different forms of administrating.
Since 1958 when Imipramine (the first AD came out) medicine has focused on increasing Serotonin, Dopamine, Norephinephrine, with thes meds over the last 40+ years.
Perhaps, just perhaps some mood disorded folk have an imbalance in their brains Endorphin system? (troublesome to face by the med professional i know).
I myself have had potent AD responses from MSIR @Codeine tabs. Aposter here Jerry is LEGALLY scripted 5mgs Hydrocodone (Vicodin) 4x daily, and attributes it to his higher functioning/mood.
Remember Opiods/iates were often given for 'Psych' issues before the biopsychiatric theories of the 1950's~came to the fore, hell, in the early 1900's you could go into ANY drugstore and buy OTC effective dosages of, Opium, Morphine, Cocaine, Heroin, products, designed to 'treat' any ails you could think of.YES Opiates/oids do indeed help depressed mood states, in many, with little SE's relatively
Cheers
Posted by MrBrice on June 3, 2006, at 10:02:07
In reply to Re: opioids for depression-yes for some/most? » linkadge, posted by Paulbwell on June 3, 2006, at 4:25:29
I say NO to this one.
opioids might help you in short terms (1-1.5 years), but then long term effects are just too bad.
It'll flatten your moods, make you dull and lifeless, as I was told and I have seen myself in some people.Please don't do it, this really istn't the good med!
Posted by pseudoname on June 3, 2006, at 11:22:59
In reply to Re: opioids for depression NO, posted by MrBrice on June 3, 2006, at 10:02:07
> opioids might help you in short terms (1-1.5 years), but then long term effects are just too bad.
Hi, Brice. This is an interesting and sobering caution. My results are life-changing so far, but what will happen in 18 months?
I don't know. No one does. You may not be aware of the difference between opioids in general and buprenorphine.
Buprenorphine is a partial opioid ANTagonist, and it's a weak and highly selective agonist. Some patients using it in addiction therapy have taken it safely & effectively over years. Unlike other opioids, it doesn't provide a buzz or high, at least not at the doses I'm using it.
A few people (like Babble's famous Elizabeth) have used buprenorphine for over 18 months without reporting poop-out or worsening mood, but of course that's not proof of safety.
> It'll flatten your moods, make you dull and lifeless, as I was told and I have seen myself in some people
I'm not discounting that possibility, Brice. Not at all. But I think it's unlikely that you have known opioid-naive depressives treated with relatively low-dose buprenorphine.
Will the experience of people who treat themselves by popping Vicodin or OxyContin be the same for those on bupe? It's an empirical issue, since the extrapolation from other opioids is not straightforward. The evidence so far is very limited, but it suggests that buprenorphine will be safe for me.
Still, it *could* poop out. Bupe poop-outs have been reported on Babble, but not with the scenario you describe. It could mess up my brain in another 18 months. Check back here; I'll certainly post about it, if able.
> Please don't do it, this really istn't the good med!
If by "this" you mean buprenorphine, I think the generalization is unwarranted.
Posted by linkadge on June 4, 2006, at 2:33:35
In reply to Re: opioids for depression-yes for some/most? » linkadge, posted by Paulbwell on June 3, 2006, at 4:25:29
Yes, opiates can provide unsurpassed emotional wellbeing. The number of people whoever, who can use opiates as a *long term* solution for a mood disorder are probably few. Other than dependance and dose escalation, opiates are probably safer than other antidepressants.
Hopefully the future will provide new ways to modulate the opiate system without the pitfalls of current opiates.Additional targets will hopefully include the endocannabanoid system.
Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on June 4, 2006, at 2:51:02
In reply to Re: opioids for depression-yes for some/most? » Paulbwell, posted by linkadge on June 4, 2006, at 2:33:35
> Yes, opiates can provide unsurpassed emotional wellbeing. The number of people whoever, who can use opiates as a *long term* solution for a mood disorder are probably few. Other than dependance and dose escalation, opiates are probably safer than other antidepressants.
>
>
> Hopefully the future will provide new ways to modulate the opiate system without the pitfalls of current opiates.
>
> Additional targets will hopefully include the endocannabanoid system.
>
> Linkadge
>
Hey ya Link!!I know u have been through the ringer, Psychiatricaly speaking, with the usual crap thrown our way~SSRI's TCA's SSNRI's MAO's, MS's AP's AC's.
Yer i'v read yr posts.
"Yes, opiates can provide unsurpassed emotional wellbeing."
Yer i have sure felt that, with my little deluge with 'Morphine Sph 20mg IR tabs'.
Boy i loved the sence of peace and well being thoes pink dolls provided, everything was fineeeeee, aaaarrrrr-HEAVEN!!-alas i havn't had access to em' for a year and a half now so.... tough sh*t.
However to get back to te original point, before ~1950's and "the psychiatric revolution" Opi's were used by everyday folks for MANY ailments-Psych@physical, without the huge stigma of today.
Again i'm no Opi/iod addict, only someone who has trialed some of these compounds, and released the SIGNIFICANT (Pain-physical or Psychic-WTD?) benefits they CAN provide-under the right situations.
Cheers
Posted by linkadge on June 4, 2006, at 2:51:58
In reply to bupreorphine for depression » MrBrice, posted by pseudoname on June 3, 2006, at 11:22:59
As far as flattening you out, thats a possibility. Opiates are naturally released during certain pleasurable activities. If one starts taking regualar opiates, they often have no need to seek out those pleasurable acitivies anymore.
For instance, social contact increases opiate release. Junkies can become antisocial because they have learned that they can activate the parts of the brain they want without having to interact socially.
I wouldn't classify buprenorphine as a regualar opiate, since as you mentioned it does some atypical stuff.
As a side note, regular opiates tend to decrease neurogenesis, this may be of consequence when considering that most antidepressants increase it.
Ideally an antidepressant restores the brain activity necessary to allow an individual to find pleasure in pleasurable activies. The antidepressant itself should not be short-circuting the pleasure centres, else the user would likely give up on pleasurable activities.
(Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for being connected to a pleasure machiene while the robots do all the work, but it may be a little while for that to take place)
As a side note. SSRI's flatten you out too. I hear a lot about how to avoid marajuanna because it makes you amotivational. In my experience, at least, the amotivational effects of the SSRI's are far stronger than that of marajuanna.Linkadge
Posted by Paulbwell on June 4, 2006, at 6:11:48
In reply to Re: bupreorphine for depression, posted by linkadge on June 4, 2006, at 2:51:58
> As far as flattening you out, thats a possibility. Opiates are naturally released during certain pleasurable activities. If one starts taking regualar opiates, they often have no need to seek out those pleasurable acitivies anymore.
>
> For instance, social contact increases opiate release. Junkies can become antisocial because they have learned that they can activate the parts of the brain they want without having to interact socially.
>
> I wouldn't classify buprenorphine as a regualar opiate, since as you mentioned it does some atypical stuff.
>
> As a side note, regular opiates tend to decrease neurogenesis, this may be of consequence when considering that most antidepressants increase it.
>
> Ideally an antidepressant restores the brain activity necessary to allow an individual to find pleasure in pleasurable activies. The antidepressant itself should not be short-circuting the pleasure centres, else the user would likely give up on pleasurable activities.
>
> (Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for being connected to a pleasure machiene while the robots do all the work, but it may be a little while for that to take place)
>
>
> As a side note. SSRI's flatten you out too. I hear a lot about how to avoid marajuanna because it makes you amotivational. In my experience, at least, the amotivational effects of the SSRI's are far stronger than that of marajuanna.
>
> Linkadge
Hi Ya Link!I agree that being enslaved to a med/drug is no way to go.
BUT MANY of the messed-up,folk who come here, have tried ALL the SSRI's ETC-u know the score?
Opiates/IOds have given a new lease on life for many,-WTF does it matter if one takes Paxil, or Bupe/MORPH, daily.
hey were only aroung for ~70-80 years.
WHATEVER GETS YOU THRU THE NIGHT?
Cheers
Posted by MrBrice on June 4, 2006, at 8:37:02
In reply to bupreorphine for depression » MrBrice, posted by pseudoname on June 3, 2006, at 11:22:59
hi,
I'm not sure if there is a big difference between buprenorphine and the other opiods but i wouldn't take them ever.
I have seen people indeed with other opiods and the effects seem good at first, but after a while the whole personality gets ruined.I hope bupe is another sort of med, and doestn't have the same effects if so many people use it tough.
best regards
Brice
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