![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
I was wondering... is there a difference between being suicidal and just wishing you were dead? I mean, I'm not even hardly going to try to do it, nor am I even thinking of ways to do it, but I feel so crappy I just wish I'd die. So when the doc asks me if I'm suicidal, should I say yes or no? I always figured suicidal was when you are seriously considering it and have a plan, or when you are trying it. It's like, "Darn, I woke up again!" :-\
-Bonnie
Posted by Declan on May 15, 2006, at 0:28:58
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
There is a difference. It is quite normal to wish this life away...to say (who said it?) 'no greater misfortune than to have been born'. And to wish for an end to suffering and therefore life.
But to raise a hand to kill yourself, or to seriously plan it....that is different. Dunno why. Because it crosses some ethical line? So if the doc asks you if you are suicidal, I'd just say no. If your doc knows you well enough he might not have to ask, unless he actually has reason to think you are planning it.
Declan
Posted by blueberry on May 15, 2006, at 5:10:11
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
The important thing is whether you are thinking of ways to commit suicide. Make sure to make it clear to the doctor that you are not thinking of ways to commit suicide but that you feel so bad you wish you weren't alive. There is a big difference. The red flag for them is when you say you are thinking of ways to do it.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on May 15, 2006, at 5:31:34
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
Hi!
> It's like, "Darn, I woke up again!"
I know that feeling only all too well, unfortunately.
I think its important that you tell the pdoc everything, that includes your thoughts of wishing you were dead, even if its not particulary 'suicidal'. I mean, I think its up to the pdoc to deceide 'how suicidal' you are, if you know what I mean. And the 'wishing you were dead' thoughts might indicate something to the pdoc that is important - we just don't know, because we're not the pdocs. And it might tell him/her something about the development of your condition, like if last time you saw him/her you hadn't had these thoughts, so now having them would indicate to the pdoc that your current treatment isn't working.
So I would just tell him/her how it really is, because that way they'd get a clear picture of your mental state.
But with regards to is there a difference between the two, well I'd say it was a continuum. I've thought about this, but its different for everyone . People have different thesholds and things. And for some reason, women are more likely to be depressed, but more men commit suicide. And when women do attempt suicide, it seems to be with less aggressive methods, eg overdosing rather than using a gun. But that doesn't mean that women are less 'suicidal'. Just that it isn't successful.
I don't know how pdocs assess whether someone is really suicidal, ie need to be hospilalized. I guess its based on lots of different factors.
And don't forget that people have different meanings with their words - someone could be really high drama, threatnening suicide all over the place etc, but not really mean it, compared to an extrememly modest, understatment type of person who might just say 'I feel like killing myself' which to them, really means that they will do it.
Kind regardsMeri
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2006, at 10:28:39
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
> I was wondering... is there a difference between being suicidal and just wishing you were dead? I mean, I'm not even hardly going to try to do it, nor am I even thinking of ways to do it, but I feel so crappy I just wish I'd die. So when the doc asks me if I'm suicidal, should I say yes or no? I always figured suicidal was when you are seriously considering it and have a plan, or when you are trying it. It's like, "Darn, I woke up again!" :-\
> -BonnieYes, there is a difference. Thinking that your death would be a blessing falls into what is loosely called suicidal ideation. It's on the low end of that realm, because you're not even considering taking an active role in the event itself. You're just hoping God will step up. It is wise to tell your doctor about that. The next question you hear will almost certainly be, "Do you have a plan?" I.e. do you have a specific act of self-harm in mind? If yes, then usually they ask you things about whether you're settling your affairs. Giving away momentos, and such. They'll try and determine if you're calm about it. Once a person has made the decision to end their life, it can be a relief. There is a pattern of behaviour that characterizes the movement towards actually making an attempt. Of course, we can't ever predict impulsive behaviour, but there is a pattern.
Posted by JaclinHyde on May 15, 2006, at 12:09:43
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing? » Bonnie_CA, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2006, at 10:28:39
It is like when you are a new mom and the baby is crying constantly and you keep thinking about throwing that kid out the window. Would you actually do it? No, but the thought of the relief it would bring is still there.
JH
Posted by Bonnie_CA on May 15, 2006, at 12:11:50
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by JaclinHyde on May 15, 2006, at 12:09:43
That's a good analogy! Yeah, I don't know that I really want to be dead, but the relief part seems nice.
-Bonnie
> It is like when you are a new mom and the baby is crying constantly and you keep thinking about throwing that kid out the window. Would you actually do it? No, but the thought of the relief it would bring is still there.
>
> JH
Posted by fairywings on May 15, 2006, at 13:43:18
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by blueberry on May 15, 2006, at 5:10:11
> The important thing is whether you are thinking of ways to commit suicide. Make sure to make it clear to the doctor that you are not thinking of ways to commit suicide but that you feel so bad you wish you weren't alive. There is a big difference. The red flag for them is when you say you are thinking of ways to do it.
Hi BB,
I know, after reading your post you're right, but for me, I thought suicidal ideation was thinking of how I'd do it.....that's what I was going through on the Zoloft. The difference was, unless it was an impulsive act, I wouldn't do it because I thought of how my kids would be hurt by it.
Bonnie, if you can tell him, maybe you could share what you're thinking with your pdoc. ....that way he'll know where you're coming from. If it's not an active plan, tell him - then he knows you're not in immediate danger.
fw
Posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 14:01:49
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
If you think deep inside u might act it out,then u might wanna say yess.Just make sure u know and this is not to diswade u,but again make sure u know will more than likly land u in a hosiptal,most docs have the right to do so without consent on those occasions,im almost sure on that!
To answer ur origanly question...i understand it perfectly,i dont want to die,in fact its just the OPPOSITE,i dont want to LIVE like this,to me its similiar to being in a whell chair,im sitting here forced to watch others live a REAL life while i fight every min,and im done with fighting i dont want to anymore,truthfully the only reason i continue is cause im simply to afraid of the second option,i dont have that in me im not one of those people,and at this point,i dont think my family relaises how lucky they are im not!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2006, at 15:07:41
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 14:01:49
> If you think deep inside u might act it out,then u might wanna say yess.Just make sure u know and this is not to diswade u,but again make sure u know will more than likly land u in a hosiptal,most docs have the right to do so without consent on those occasions,im almost sure on that!
You have to be very careful on how you phrase it, I agree. I told my pdoc that the thoughts had been occurring to me, but that I wasn't taking myself seriously. That did not result in an admission, involuntary or not.
In my locale, psych beds are at a premium. Even having a plan might not get you a bed. We have 28 beds for a catchment area with a population of over 600,000.
I would very carefully explain myself, nonetheless. I wouldn't wish to occupy a bed that another person might really need.
Lar
Posted by curtm on May 15, 2006, at 15:48:03
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 14:01:49
(sigh) Too many good comments in all the posts in this thread, so I won't even cut/paste any (too much work.)
There is this quarry on the way to work that was excavated alongside the highway. This cut was made only about two years. The edge was a mere 40 feet from the shoulder. As they were cutting, there were unprotected edges of the cut. They kept digging over and over, deeper and deeper. The drop was 150+ feet by the time they finished and it had barely 4 foot of dirt burm along the edge. I thought it was odd that it wasn't higher...
Flash back a couple years before that-- Every night I would think how disgraceful to my family it would be to commit suicide in some obvious way. I thought that it be great if something natural happened to me. Maybe I could have a heart attack from stress. I thought it would be convenient if a real accident happened. Maybe an oncoming truck would veer into the wrong lane. I thought of ways that would not be "coincidental". Maybe I could go to East L.A. and drive around projects at night with my doors unlocked and my windows down. I would even come up with with events that would look "accidental."
...every day I drove by and looked at that quarry to and from work. I could see the bottom as the road was elevated from the edge. Were they planning to put a burm up or not? Then they put the burm up. I drove by that short burm everyday. There were even two places (yes I counted them) that had a short section without dirt. One had a culvert and the other had a bush that they had worked around. For two years, I drove by that quarry with a dark cloud looming in my mind, but I kept on driving...
Now the burm is about 8 feet tall. Oh, well. Maybe they cut to close to the road and the earth won't be able to hold itself. I'll just keep driving by it everyday.
Posted by llrrrpp on May 15, 2006, at 17:43:27
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing? » willyee, posted by curtm on May 15, 2006, at 15:48:03
For many weeks recently I wished I were dead, and I didn't care about myself to take care of things that were usually important to me. I wasn't eating or exercising, and so I wasn't taking care of my body. I didn't have specific plans, but on multiple occasions, I would be walking around town, and I would cross an intersection without looking. I didn't care if someone hit me. My attention was so focused on my own pain that I didn't want to process any external events like traffic. I didn't want to, and I so I ignored it. Neglect, in the worst way. Suicidal ideation- yes. I had fantasies about sharp and harmful things. I sent my T an e-mail that I was really worried about myself, and he saw me the next day, and set me up an appt. with p-doc to get my neurotransmitters tinkered with. He told me at the beginning of the session that I wasn't going to be hospitalized, if that's what I was afraid of.
It was such a relief to talk to someone about the thoughts that were popping into my head, over which I felt so little control. My fears that I might step over the line between fantasy, and act on the ideations (if I hadn't already) were really diminshed by talking about the whole street-crossing thing to figure out what category of fantasy vs. action that fell under. This is not the kind of conversation that you can have with anyone else, because people who love you will probably either over-react or dismiss your fears and concerns about your well-being.
Suicide is such a taboo topic, and so distressing all by itself, (without even taking the underlying psychological disorder into account) that failing to talk about it might inflict further harm to one's delicate mental health. Just talking openly and honestly can really help you and your T/pdoc figure out what to do, and hopefully bring some measure of relief to dark times.
Posted by curtm on May 15, 2006, at 17:46:08
In reply to trigger: fantasy vs. action continuum, posted by llrrrpp on May 15, 2006, at 17:43:27
I never told ANYONE the story before today- two posts up.
Posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 18:08:45
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing? » willyee, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2006, at 15:07:41
True i cant say that is the case everywhere...in my state or just with the area im in i believe it is.........kinda scary some of the things i read.....especialy about having a hear attack from stress,ive never felt so srongly before about wanting to be taken seriously,now that i do my greatest fear has come to be that no one around me is taking me seriously enough.
I sit and watch my family out side working on a project like fixing something,a part of the fence etc,something always needs to be done of course,and i wonder how they could take projects around the house serious when they have a son who is in such agony,i know when my father lay in a hospital bed semi recently he was the concern of everyone,the world stopped until we knew he was ok,.......do i not deserve even half of that sympatahy?
I wish the ilness had a look like a broken leg would,maybe thats why,maybe i just come across as a over sized whinner?? I do think sometimes how nice it would be to have a heart attack,then as everyone sits around trying to figure out what happened,maybe itll pop into there heads all the times ive been telling them something is seriously wrong and i need help.
Of course part of me feels guilty to feel like this,but the consequenace of not helping me at the moment is something my entire family is responsable for.
Posted by Phillipa on May 15, 2006, at 19:55:14
In reply to Re: Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 18:08:45
I think we all feel like that you can't see mental illness but you can a heart monitor with arrythmias or an x-ray of something broken. Love Phillipa
Posted by Bonnie_CA on May 15, 2006, at 22:08:26
In reply to trigger: fantasy vs. action continuum, posted by llrrrpp on May 15, 2006, at 17:43:27
I know exactly what you mean! I haven't done anything like walking across a street without looking in awhile, but I sometimes think "Wow, it'd be great if I just laid down to sleep, and I didn't wake up because my heart stopped." I did that whole not taking care of myself thing back when I was 15. I'd not wear my seatbelt in the car. One time, I had a friend of mine ride with me when I had to go somewhere so I wouldn't be tempted to swerve into oncoming traffic. I don't want death to hurt, I want it to be quick and painless. But I wouldn't do it to myself. And I don't want to die everyday. Sometimes I'm perfectly happy with being alive, and sometimes I want someone to put me out of my misery. On a bright note, I don't think about death nearly as often as I did in high school. It's fractional now compared to those years. I would have gladly died back then. Now I feel like I have more to live for. - Bonnie
Posted by willyee on May 15, 2006, at 23:23:53
In reply to Re: trigger: fantasy vs. action continuum, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 15, 2006, at 22:08:26
I guess i should be somewhat grateful.....i had zero symptpoms or problems till age 19,so i got to enjoy a normal teen life,just my 20`s are shot to hell lol!
Posted by curtm on May 15, 2006, at 23:48:07
In reply to Is there a difference? Suicide and just wishing?, posted by Bonnie_CA on May 14, 2006, at 23:56:39
We all need to know that suicide is not the answer!!! We can live as long as everyone else dies! (Evil laugh!))))))))))))))
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.