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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by retrojen on July 20, 2004, at 20:19:29
I need some sage advice on how to approach my new husband. I found out right before we got married that he smoked pot "occaisionally". I didn't mind - I have no problem with purely recreational use. I already knew he drank- daily, but moderately. He admitted to having a prescription for Ativan "a long time ago" for having sleep problems.
In the middle of our moving in together, I found a his prescription receipts. For at least the past year, he has been taking Ativan on adaily basis- the past 3 months he's been refilling every two weeks. 40 1 mg pills in two weeks! He has also been taking Viagra, and Cialis for at least six months.
To top it off, I've encountered him smoking multiple times per day.
NOw I understand how it all ties together. MJ and alcohol can increase anxiety, Ativan can cause rebound anxiety and all of the above can cause erectile dysfunction.
My biggest concern is there may be an underlying medical condition that his primary doctor has done nothing to check for- anyone who gives out 12+ refills of a benzo with no restrictions should be hanged and shot on sight.
He's actually a wonderful guy, but obviously a closet drug addict. There is not a pill bottle in sight, nor do I see him take anything stronger than Advil.
What might be a good way to discuss this with him?
Posted by jlbl2l on July 20, 2004, at 20:35:03
In reply to new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by retrojen on July 20, 2004, at 20:19:29
break up with him before you get hurt... his drugs will bring you down with him. i've been there.
Posted by retrojen on July 20, 2004, at 21:40:04
In reply to Re: new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by jlbl2l on July 20, 2004, at 20:35:03
Although you're probably right, I'm going to have to discuss it with him. Since the cat is out of the bag anyway, I dug further and found paperwork showing he has had a psychiatric diagnosis in the past- Biploar II disorder. As his wife, he has to discuss it with me. If he won't , then I walk and cancel the two receptions coming up, return gifts, etc. without blinking an eye.
Posted by Glydin on July 20, 2004, at 22:56:27
In reply to new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by retrojen on July 20, 2004, at 20:19:29
You have, indeed, got your hands full. Can you and he make an appointment and go together to his doctor? As you said, the cat's out of the bag. Discussing your concerns honestly with him is the best, I feel. I also caution you to not say anything you don't intent to follow through with. If you do intent to end your relationship with him if he does not get help, be prepared to walk that walk. The Substance Board may be able to help you some on this matter, too. Good luck, I'm sorry your new life is having these hurdles.
Posted by HappyGirl on July 20, 2004, at 23:54:12
In reply to new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by retrojen on July 20, 2004, at 20:19:29
Hi:
Sorry to say bluntly, ... but you might have been 'blinded' by love you have for him.
In reading the following paragraph tells all of his problems you've been encountering AFTER GOT MARRIED him.
>>> ... he smoked pot "occaisionally". I didn't mind - I have no problem with purely recreational use. I already knew he drank- daily, but moderately. He admitted to having a prescription for Ativan "a long time ago" for having sleep problems. <<<Normally, any HEALTHY adult males do NOT enjoy the above, ... in my opinion. Then, you need to decide whether you'are able to handle the current situation with your new hushand, that may reqire a tremendous energy, both emotionally and financially. Because, those problems demand, first of all, financial and emotional resources to get better.
In my personal opinion,... since you ALREADY married him, you'd better to encourage him to go any meeting(for drinking) or appointment(for psychiatrist). As a NEW wife, you may need not only 'unconditional love' but also 'a lot of PATIENCE' to get through this situation.
Eventually, after 'HARD WORK' with some tears, both you and your NEW husband cherich 'TRUE' love and 'GENUINE' soul-mate.GOOD LUCK both!!!
H.G.
Posted by guttersnipe on July 21, 2004, at 6:06:54
In reply to Re: new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by HappyGirl on July 20, 2004, at 23:54:12
Hmmm . . . OK, so everyone who has read about the U.S./Cuban Missile Crisis in any depth, or who has taken a basic intro-level Social Psychology class, is aware of the phenomenon called "groupthink." This phenomenon is especially pernicious among "recovering" alcoholics and addicts who, when they get together, seem to lose all of their critical reasoning faculties and see nothing wrong with being compulsively addicted to 12-step group meetings and consuming massive quantities of tobacco and coffee during the breaks of such meetings but who, perversely, are often highly critical of the use of helpful prescription psychoactive medications (even the meds which don't ordinarily get one high, such as lithium and SSRIs) which many of them insist are impediments to "sobriety" because those substances are viewed as being mere "substitutes" for alcohol or other potentially addictive substances (and they often insist this as they chain-smoke the cancer sticks ...).
So, just for the sake of adding a perspective which does not accord with the groupthink orthodoxy you're likely to hear from the folks who are pathologically obsessed with "sobriety," I'll add a few heterodox comments. Of course, like most advice, my comments are probably worth about what you paid for them ;-)
(1) It many if not most cultures it is considered perfectly normal and healthy for people to consume a couple or a few servings of alcoholic beverages daily. (Indeed, the adherents of one widespread religion worship a deity who reportedly pleased His followers by supernaturally transforming water into wine, and then later reportedly advised them to drink wine in remembrance of Him). Downing 2 or 3 drinks a day is hardly an indicator of alcoholism, especially if a person can stop drinking before getting dysfunctionally intoxicated and if consuming alcohol does not substantially impair the person's social and occupational functioning. And of course, most of us are familiar with the studies showing that moderate consumption of alcoholic beverages, daily, can actually improve one's health (e.g., cardiac health).
(2) You mentioned that your husband has been diagnosed as being manic-depressive. Many manic-depressive folks, myself included, find marijuana to be a useful mood-stabilizing medicine (if curious, google a Harvard doc named Grinspoon for his research on cannabis use by bipolars) which often has much less onerous side effects than other mood stablizers such as lithium, Depakote, etc. -- medicines which, unlike marijuana, sometimes *kill* people (it is physically impossible to consume a fatal dose of marijuana). If your husband uses marijuana in substantial quantity, regularly, then it might be a good idea for him to use a vaporizer, which delivers the medicine into one's lungs without also delivering potentially damaging substances such as tar.
(3) 20 mg Ativan per week sounds like a lot to me (I personally never took more than 14 mg/week, plus the occasional Xanax and shot or two of whiskey to help me sleep -- a level of usage which even after a few years did not get me addicted), but many folks take quantities of benzodiazepines similar/equivalent to or greater than the amount your husband is taking, with their respective doctors' approval, to help them cope with serious anxiety and/or agitation and/or insomnia. If your husband is using Ativan for legitimate medical reasons (and anxiety and agitation and insomnia are, without question, very common in manic-depressives), then so what if the stuff can be addictive or can give him a bit of a mild buzz?! -- would you deny morphine to a terminally ill cancer patient just because opiates are potentially addictive and some folks use opiates to get high? (That's what the cowardly and callous doctors did to my grandmother when she was suffering on her death bed, and just thinking about it makes me completely livid, even to this day -- my sweet, kind-hearted, forgiving, and peace-loving disposition is the only reason I didn't act upon my entirely sane urge to load my 12-gauge shotgun full of buckshot and send those S.O.B. doctors to The Fiery Place Where That Guy With The Horns And The Goat-Feet And The Pitchfork Hangs Out. If your husband in fact does need all those Ativan to make his life bearable, then the absolutely *worst* thing you can do is to pressure him not to take the stuff! By the way, you might be comforted by the fact that unlike Xanax and Valium and Rohypnol, Ativan doesn't offer very much of a high so it is not trafficked much at all on the black market and is not very frequently used by folks who aren't self-medicating for manic-depression and/or anxiety.) "Drug war" hysteria and puritanical ascetic sadomasochism have absolutely no place in compassionate medicine. If your husband needs that amount of Ativan to make his life tolerable, then I for one hope that he continues to pop Ativan as much as he bloody well likes (as long as he doesn't drive an automobile while substantially impaired, of course).
(4) In my experience and that of most of the other guys I know, neither marijuana nor any benzodiazepine has any effect whatsoever upon erectile function -- and booze consumption has to be rather extreme to have an adverse affect upon sexual function -- so your husband's Viagra use is probably NOT related to his use of other substances (heroin and cocaine, on the other hand, can markedly impair a guy's ability to perform sexually -- but of course I'm not suggesting that your husband is using either of those substances). If he hasn't discussed his Viagra use with you, it is probably because he feels embarrassed to do so. From what I've heard, a lot of guys have the wacky idea that not being able to get it up all the time is insufficiently manly (the studly Bob Dole excepted, of course).
(5) I'm hardly an expert on what makes intimate relationships succeed, but for whatever it's worth, if it were me in this relationship instead of you, I would be much less worried about your husband's substances use, and much *more* worried about the obviously problematic lack of trust and communication between the two of you. If I were you, I would be very troubled by my husband's lack of honesty about his substance use: is he in denial about a substance abuse problem? -- a question worth thinking hard about . . . then on the other hand, if you're nagging/critical of his self-medication, then that would surely explain why he would rather avoid discussing the topic! And conversely, if I were your husband and I learned that my wife had been snooping around in my private papers and spying on me, I'd be very troubled by that. (Well, actually, that was euphemistic: to be honest, if I learned that my wife were snooping around in my private papers and spying on me, I would drop her like a hot potato and pat myself on the back for having insisted upon a pre-nup).
Anyway, I hope that the two of you can sit down together and be open and speak your minds honestly to each other. Developing an adequate degree of trust and honest communication is probably the most important thing yall can do to make your relationship work out.
Finally, although I find most 12-steppers to be about as open-minded and intellectually sophisticated about psychoactive substances use as the average Taliban is about women's rights (except for the enlightened 12-steppers on this board, of course), it is certainly true that a lot of folks cannot handle certain drugs -- so maybe your husband is, in fact, an alcoholic and/or is addicted to one or more other drugs. But whether he has a substance abuse problem or not, you might never know the real answer until the two of you improve your communications and become more trusting of communicating openly with each other -- something which you'll have to do to make your marriage work out anyway, regardless of whether he is an addict/alcoholic. Couples therapy (or, if the term "therapy" puts him off, you can refer to it as "mediation") might be a good place to start.
I really hope the two of you can work things out. As I said, I'm not exactly great at making romances work out, but I do have a lot of experience with drug use (and I have a bit of experience with drug addiction, too, so I feel fairly well-qualified to discuss both of them and the differences between the two) so if you want to follow up with me, let me know and I'll give you my email address.
I hope I didn't say anything to offend you, but I do believe very passionately that (especially in the superficially libertine but in fact deeply puritanical U.S.) psychoactive drug use is blown way out of proportion, and that we would be well-advised to lighten up about it -- especially when the folks involved are self-medicating not with rock cocaine or methamphetamine or PCP, but with relatively low-risk substances such as marijuana and benzodiazepines as your husband is doing.
Best wishes, and I hope that the two of yall can work things out together.
Posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 7:41:38
In reply to Re: new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by HappyGirl on July 20, 2004, at 23:54:12
Hi:
I just forgot to mention regarding 'drinking.'Normally, a few-drinks-daily is NOT 'harmful' to any non-mental-ill folks. However, if you've been on any psycho-medications, then things are totally different. Because, any 'alcoholic' beverages do harm the brain/chemical systems on mental-ill folks.
I, too love 'drinking,' so to speak 'social alcoholic.' However, knowking that I've been on psycho.-meds. one of which is quite potent, then I needed to give it up totally. It's NEVER easy for anyone who used to indulge on those alcoholic beverages, however the risk of 'messing-up' chemical or interaction of psycho.-meds. is so great that it does not worth to take any risks.
BTW, I've been steadily improving my Bp condition by taking med. mix very faithfully and rigorously.
H.G.
Posted by retrojen on July 21, 2004, at 12:49:36
Well, I spoke with him about it last night, after waiting patiently through dinner and discussing with him if it's OK for me to confide in him and bring up sensitive issues.
Bottom line is that he lied and continues to lie about most of it. Of course, he feels his privacy is violated. But, he admitted that he told me to get insurance quotes- which necessitated I find out what his insurance is, which was in the same file as the receipts.
He insists that the Ativan use is in the distant past. I know differently. His receipts show he has refilled six times since the beginning of the year. The viagra and cialis he claimed was properly prescribed by a urologist, when recepits clearly show his primary dr. prescribed both Viagra and cialis meds.
I became angry at the Dr. and said that we should go in there together and discuss how she is going to responsibly refer him to qualified people and NOT prescribe to him anymore. He refused, saying I wasn't his mother or psychologist.
We're at a standoff. He admits to having an open prescription for Ativan for going on three years. He denies recent use, but there's proof he's been refilling and refilling excessively up until late June. He showed me a bottle with maybe 60 pills. Then what happened to the other 180 pills? I asked him to throw all of them away right then. He refused.
He said the receipts go back two and three years. They are all from 2004. I told him to go check his records and we can talk today.
He denied any mental health issues except sleep disturbance. In the same file was a diagnosis for Bipolar II. Maybe the dr. told him, maybe not.
He mentioned divorce and if he doesn't come clean, I'm going to have to take him up on it.What I can't figure out is if he's covering up mental health or substance use problems. He's lying big time, but I don't know if this addicted behavior or shame for having a mental health diagnosis.
Posted by Wildman on July 21, 2004, at 13:29:48
In reply to new hubby's pill-popping, MJ, alcohol and Viagra, posted by retrojen on July 21, 2004, at 12:49:36
I've been (partially) in your husband's shoes and it was difficult to face the facts with my wife.
I, too, was doing Ativan (a stash that we took away from my mother-in-law when she was hospitalized) and MJ and also Percacets.
I thought I could hide it, but ultimately had to confess when my wife suspected things.
I didn't want to lose my wife and three kids and the life that we have created together so I came clean on everything. I understand the defensiveness that your husband feels, as he is probably very ashamed of himself, and to be caught in the lies is even worse to him. I knew that I would lose everything I've worked for over the last 20 years, so the choice between the lies and the truth was not that difficult for me to make.
Of course, my wife felt like I had been cheating on her (and in a way I did have a love affair with opioids).
I am also a mild BP2, and I believe I've also been through chem. dependency so I have a dual diagnosis. I've found tremendous relief in Lexapro and Seroquel. Now that I have given my meds a chance to work (no drinking and other stuff) I am feeling MUCH better and don't have the cravings for all those bad things nearly as much. I am also much easier to live with (according to my wife).
I understand your anger towards your husband, but I may humbly suggest that you two get to a pdoc (whoever diagnosed him as BP2) and discuss ALL the issues. If the pdoc is worth anything, you can get the help you need.
I hope that I have helped you by sharing my story here, and I hope that I have not offended you in any way. I do see hope for your husband and your marriage. Please hang in there. He needs you more than you can understand..
Wildman
Posted by retrojen on July 21, 2004, at 15:04:37
In reply to Re: new hubby's pill-popping, MJ, alcohol and Viagra, posted by Wildman on July 21, 2004, at 13:29:48
Thank you Wildman , for sharing your experience. I want to have compassion for him and reading your post helps me hang onto that.
Right now though, with the blatant lying, I feel my back is up against the wall. I asked him to do 2 things. First, make an appointment with his primary car doc so we can all three talk over the situation. Second, I want him to get appointments with a psychiatrist and urologist. He refused both, and also lied saying that his Viagra and Cialis were prescribed by the urologist.
Without him doing those two things, (in addition to being honest) I can't trust him. He'll just keep lying and keep hiding and go even further underground.
I wish I had grabbed the file, but I really didn't think he'd persist in lying when I asked. I'm sure he's locked it up or destroyed the evidence, but it doesn't really matter. I know, because I put it all in chronological order and pieced together original prescription dates, refill dates and prescribing doc. I double checked so I would have a full understanding before I talked with him.
What can I do to get through to him?
Posted by Wildman on July 21, 2004, at 15:56:05
In reply to new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by retrojen on July 21, 2004, at 15:04:37
Hang on to the "for better or for worse, in sickness and in health" part of your vows as this is what they were talking about.
Give him a bit of time to let your suggestion "bake into his head". It may be a bit overwhelming to have his habits taken away from him all at once, I know I resisted.
I did voluntarily abstain from everything for 3 weeks and let my meds do their thing and it helped me to gain perspective. I am now allowing myself to drink a bit of beer and wine, and smoke weed on occasion, so I don't have to give up those things completely. Just not in the amounts and frequency as before. It's wierd though, in that I don't crave all that stuff like I used to.
I drank and smoked daily for about 20 years and am actually relieved to find that I CAN moderate my usage of these things. Partially, I think, because I don't get the same buzz off of them that I used to - so what's the point?
Now that I take the Seroquel with the Lexapro, I don't find that I need the Ativan, I'm much more balanced. I get to sleep fine at night now (used to smoke before retiring for the evening) and I'm not experiencing any weight gain (in fact, now that I drink less, I'm losing a bit of my beer belly).
I don't have any experience with Viagra, so I can't comment on that.
Give your husband a chance to let this soak in a bit for him. He's probably been self-medicating for years and it's not working anymore. I can deal with the fact that I'm mild BP2 because I have medication THAT REALLY HELPS ME. It's much less scary when you know that TRUE RELIEF is possible. My anger, anxiety, restlessness, distractibility have all gotten better.
I believe he may be more receptive to exploring the BP2 if he know that he can:
1. actually get relief from medications
2. still be able to drink occasionally
3. still be able to smoke weed occasionally
4. won't feel the need to take the Ativan nearly as much. if you don't need it anymore, then not having it around isn't such a problem. besides, I do take the occasional 1/2 tab of Seroquel when I get hypomanic. It's nice to know you have something available for those times.His entire lifestyle doesn't not have to change overnight, but if he decides to see a pdoc and meds are prescribed he may not feel the need to keep doing all these things and sneaking around.
I hope this helps you. Please hang in there and give this man the help he is desperate for. If ultimately it can't be turned around, at least you know you gave it your best. You aren't his mother or shrink, but you are his partner and you guys CAN GET THROUGH THIS with your relationship intact. I am walking proof that this can be done.
All the best,
Wildman
Posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 22:08:22
In reply to new hubby's pill-popping, MJ, alcohol and Viagra, posted by retrojen on July 21, 2004, at 12:49:36
Hi:
In my suggestion, if this situation(finding the truth of your husband's mental issues and etc.) is very hard to encounter, then some counselling might help.
Because, in reading your 'two' posts, you started to NOT able to 'trust' your husband's stories. In marrige, 'TRUST' is one of most important factors to preserve 'LOVE.'
GOOD LUCK!!!
H.G.
Posted by retrojen on July 22, 2004, at 12:44:19
In reply to Counselling might help on this situation, posted by HappyGirl on July 21, 2004, at 22:08:22
You are soooo right! When he persisted in lying even though I had proof, it really shook my trust.
I'm going for counseling ASAP.We talked about it again. He denied lying, but said I was right, and that he would quit taking the pills. He told me there was no habit, he would not need to taper and at my insistence, poured the pills down the drain. The Ativan still has 1 refill, and he refuses a conference with his doctor or a med evaluation with a GOOD p-doc. He's hanging onto his pill source, so I wonder if any of it means anything.
I'm giving him 1 week to rejoin the marriage. Right now he's dead silent, sleeping on the couch and has a dark look. If he comes around, great. If not, then it's marriage counseling or I leave him. In the meantime, I'm going to my first Al-Anon meeting to get straight with myself.
I want to hold onto compassion for him. It's hard when he keeps lying and says repeatedly "this isn't harming you". So not true. I love him. I want to build a life with him, but I'll leave if he doesn't get help.
> Hi:
> In my suggestion, if this situation(finding the truth of your husband's mental issues and etc.) is very hard to encounter, then some counselling might help.
> Because, in reading your 'two' posts, you started to NOT able to 'trust' your husband's stories. In marrige, 'TRUST' is one of most important factors to preserve 'LOVE.'
>
> GOOD LUCK!!!
> H.G.
Posted by HappyGirl on July 22, 2004, at 13:29:05
In reply to counseling is a great idea » HappyGirl, posted by retrojen on July 22, 2004, at 12:44:19
Hi:
It's very good to know that you're going to counselling. At the beginning, a bit intimidating, ... but at the end, it's WELL worth. Then, I highly suggest you on counselling session.Truthfully, without proper understanding/education in regrad to 'mental-ill,' it must be quite tough for you to understand your husband's needs. In counselling session, she/he will offer you appropriate direction how to deal with your husband's problems, including 'marriage.'
Hopefully, you will find a COMPETENT counselor(preferrably mental related counselor) who is able to help you to build a 'HEALTHY' and 'LOVING' relationship with your husband.
H.G.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2004, at 9:00:39
In reply to Re: new hubby into pills, alcohol, MJ and VIAGRA, posted by guttersnipe on July 21, 2004, at 6:06:54
> "recovering" alcoholics and addicts ... when they get together, seem to lose all of their critical reasoning faculties
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or redirect a follow-up to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Please also redirect follow-ups regarding relationships to Psycho-Social-Babble and those regarding substance use to Psycho-Babble Substance Use.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2004, at 23:57:56
In reply to Redirect and please be civil » guttersnipe, posted by Dr. Bob on July 26, 2004, at 9:00:39
> PS: Please also redirect follow-ups ... regarding substance use to Psycho-Babble Substance Use.
Here's a link for that one:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/subs/20040604/msgs/368643.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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