![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by adamie on May 11, 2002, at 21:58:58
I suffer from extremely severe suicidal depression and anxiety. I am 18. this has been going on for almost a year. All due to taking a skin medication that my bastard parents forced on me. Accutane. Canadian label had minimal warnings unlike USA. i took it and i stopped it but it was too late. My brain got messed up. My head would be burning, heart pounding to the point of heart pain, constant mind torture, every moment painful to be alive. when this happened it was first gradual but then suddenly it got like 50 times worse. i was unable to eat. sleep. walk properly. i would be shaking. vision turned all dark yet very bright and white, everything pale. i had trouble talking and when i did it was all monotone. i would have killed myself right then and there if it weren't for the hope that anti depressants and such could help. so i endured the constant mental pain. i was put on paxil and things got better after and then worse.that is the problem. i have tried 16 medications or so. Let me get my incomplete list... I tried Paxil, Prozac, Sam-e, Celexa, Effexor, Wellbutrin, Zyprexa, ECT ,Adrafinil, Salmon Oil, St. John's Wort. valerian root, moclobemide, ativan, immovane, 5-htp, lamictal, L-tyrosine, Risperdal, Vivarint. And nothing has been stable or reliable. The first time I was on zyprexa for example things got better. I was livable. I was not enjoying things much. Depression VERYYYY severe but at least i wasn't feeling about dying too much. then for some reason it got worse and worse. i had so much day time sleepiness. and i would sleep like 14 hours a day with very vivid dreams which means poor sleep. it was getting harder to function. i was less able to spend my time as in make time go by which is pretty much most of what i been doing since i cant ****** ENJOY things. My brain is broken and i am unable to enjoy things most of the time. and when i can it's usually to a very low extent. all these meds have changes in their effect on me. when i first went on the combo of ativan (I HAVE severe anxiety), risperdal, and something else i was able to spend my time playing a certain computer game. then it all got worse and worse. the day got worse but the evenings turned to complete hell. only to be better in the morning. eveninsg was when i took the risperdal. i got severe anxiety. i had negative thoughts popping into my head about everything. even regarding so much as turning on the television. so much fear at night. and it was so hard waiting it all out... trying to do things to make the time go by when i went to go to sleep. so like all other meds i had to change. i needed to try something else.
i dont react to meds as most everyone else does. the meds always have SOME effect right after the first dose. And the early days of this were so much hell because of this since most of these effects were negative but... the ****** DOCTORS would not believe me. "THE MED CANT HAVE ANY EFFECT UNTIL AT LEAST SEVERAL WEEKS". I'd break that bastard's legs. my life was on the line and they treated me like some kind of idiot. all meds have some effect right away even if it is just SIDE effects. sure the true effect not meant to come in until later but MANY mental effects come at me right after the first dose. perhaps that is part of why i have so much instability. the meds make me feel one way at first and then when the 'true effect' comes in it's like a huge change. anyway. prozac after the very first dose made me feel horribly SUICIDAL. so much mind torture and anxiety came in. I could only try to hide my head in my bed as i felt my head BURNING and even my pillow would be hot because of it. then it went away since i didn't take the prozac anymore and i was back to my hellish normal severe depression/anxiety state. same thing with effexor. and some other meds.
what i have seemed to realize is that perhaps any stimulating medication which has anxiety as a possible side effects WILL make me WORSE. out of all the medications maybe paxil was the best and currently i was thinking vivarint was also maybe the best for me as well. Here is what happened. I took it after feeling my health deteriorating being off risperdal and only ativan. sure risperdal day time was not too horrible but i could not stand those 4 hours every day where i felt like i wanted to die. ativan all by itself seemed better at first. i was like that for maybe 5 days. the first time i tried ativan all by itself was around winter and at that time it only helped a little. i was at a point where i was extremely suicidal. i needed something so i was at the hospital emergency room waiting 6 hours. they gave me ativan and said doctor will see me in a few days. a bit less suicidal it made me but it seemed to not help much at all. but in the winter time i seemed to be doing much worse. in fall it was all better. winter was torture. then spring came and it was a bit better. i feel i deffinetly have some seasonal aspect to my illness. anyway... vivarint i started taking along with L-tyrosine and ativan. oh and before this i was on sam-e which i felt was doing me some good. one of the meds i tried a long time ago that seemed promising but my bastard parents wouldn't buy anymore and then my friend said he could not afford it to buy me anymore eighter. and my super rich female friend who says wants my baby wont even take the time to freggin order it for me since she is so damn busy with her own important life... so i cant get that anymore. same with another so called friend. who lives in america and pretends to say she cant find it. well screw them. i guess my life is not important to them. but sam-e seemed to help slightly. it's not like it was some miracle. just enough to keep me alive and not wanting to die though but i had it for a short while so who knows what long term effects it may have had. anyway... i went on vivarint. after first dose i was better. then 2 days in it was quite an improvement! i was actually looking forward to going and living with my female friend in the summer time. i had less anxiety about everything. and i was spending my time more easily and even slightly enjoying normal things... but... it gave me sexual powers. i was suddenly going on irc and doing sexual roleplaying for hours on end. this was a good way to spend my time... if one of the few damn things i can actually enjoy is sex then why not? when i was normal and NORMALLY happy i didn't care much about sex. but with this i didn't have much choice. eighter this or some boredom. but aside from the sexual energy i also found that playing computer games was starting to be enjoyable. anyway i felt LIVABLE. and looking forward to living with the lady in summer time. by the way i often have a big problem with tiredness and sleepyness with this illness but on this vivarint that was pretty much gone. except until the last 2 days.. actually 3 days ago i felt i was perhaps getting worse. then yesterday WOrse still. and today QUITE WORSE. i was so sleepy during the day... despite decent sleep from last night i just layed in bed. i was unable to be motivated to do anything. my mind was like shutting down. unable to enjoy things. so all i could be was tired... i went to sleep for like 4 hours or so. and i dont FEEL Better. less sleepy but still feel i am getting worse. and it's becoming so much harder to even imagine myself being with that lady. if i dont go live with her i might as well die since i cant ****** live like this. so i want to try something else but i cant find my reboxetine which someone gave me a while ago. so i dunno what to do in the next few days. i am thinking of cutting out all this vivarint. the lady person likes sex a lot so she expects that from me. i would like to be able to provide her with that. that has been the one remaining good thing so far about this damn med. but i am getting sick of being unable to do much else. playing the computer games is becoming such a chore... unlike when i am feeling better. and anxiety is becoming heavy. gee now i forgot what i was going to say in the end. anyway it seems no one ****** understands. darcy said she doesn't want me to be sick while living with her and that i have to be feeling well enough in order to live with her. so basically she does not love me enough to see past the illness. it doesn't matter to her how much i suffer. but she's pretty much all i got. it hurts so much :******. parents unsupportive. i was hospitalized before and was then locked up in a heavy security second hospital due to becoming severely suicidal on celexa which the bastard doctor refused to stop right away. he wanted to WEEN me off for 3 days. if i took ONE more day DOSE of it i'd be dead. so screw him. my mom just yells at me all the time. "WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU. YOU BEEN SLEEPING FOR 5 FUCKEN HOURS. GET UP AND DO SOMETHING". and it's like that much of the time. I wish the bitch had this instead of me. a perfect present for her on this special 'mother's day'. i am so sick of living. before i was so scared of dying. i felt i had to live at all costs. since i am not a religeous person. but i have come to the realization recently that dying cant be too bad. who knows what happens. maybe an afterlife? it's hard to explain but i felt that if we dont feel anything before birth and it seems that before birth doesn't even exist then it seems if we pass to our next life... then it could be right away. perhaps no waiting period at all. it's hard to explain. so i wouldn't mind dying but i love who i am and who i can be if only this damn illness were to get better. there have been some up periods where i can see how much better things can be. i just wish i had more of them.
i want to try some of those stimulants. i have tried too much else that hasn't worked. and these are said to make everyone feel better right away. so i hope the bastard doctors will finally give me some. my last doctor gave up on me and refused to give me any new meds since 2 months ago. so i stopped seeing her. and i'm sick of how everyone treats me. i talk about how i trully feel "horrendous and often suicidal" to darcy then she doesn't want me to live with her. i mention it to some other lady friend who i talk to online then she gets very mad and says i'm looking for attention. i'm sick of this. no one ****** understands. i feel like dying.
does anyone know why the hell i am so unstable on meds?
anyone want to talk about this or anything then e-mail me at adamie18@hotmail.com or ICQ at 14297524. feeling hopeless and horrendous. very painful.
Posted by Guy on May 11, 2002, at 23:14:00
In reply to severe INSTABILITY on medications, hopelessness, posted by adamie on May 11, 2002, at 21:58:58
Adamie, I don't really know what to say except the I know how you feel. For the past five years I have experienced most of what you describe. Have you thought about ditching all the drugs and letting your brain find some kind of equilibrium? Remember to taper rather than go cold turkey. You should also read a book called The Power of Now...it may help you find a calm centre. Learn how to stop your mind from racing out of control (i.e. relax).
Posted by JohnX2 on May 12, 2002, at 4:16:28
In reply to severe INSTABILITY on medications, hopelessness, posted by adamie on May 11, 2002, at 21:58:58
Hi Adamie,Have you had a good basic physical to look for
hypothyroid, endocrinology , etc?This may be a total crap-shoot, take it for what
it is worth....But I found this abstract (below) regarding potential adverse effects of Accutane.
One of them, hyperinsulinemia can lead to insulin
intolerance and elevated glucose levels. The change
in vision you described would fit this (it is a precursor symptom
potentially to Type 2 diabetes, I believe)I also found this article regarding neurlogical
implications of hyperinsulinemia (not sure on quality
of information here):http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/issue78/item12.shtml
Take Care,
John----------------------------------------
High risk for hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome after an episode of hypertriglyceridemia during 13-cis retinoic acid therapy for acne: a pharmacogenetic study.
Rodondi N, Darioli R, Ramelet AA, Hohl D, Lenain V, Perdrix J, Wietlisbach V, Riesen WF, Walther T, Medinger L, Nicod P, Desvergne B, Mooser V.
Department of Internal Medicine, CHUV University Hospital, University Medical Policlinic, CH-1011 Lausanne, Switzerland.
BACKGROUND: Administration of 13-cis retinoic acid (isotretinoin) for acne is occasionally accompanied by hyperlipidemia. It is not known why some persons develop this side effect. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether isotretinoin triggers a familial susceptibility to hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome. DESIGN: Cross-sectional comparison. SETTING: University hospital in Lausanne, Switzerland. PARTICIPANTS: 102 persons in whom triglyceride levels increased at least 1.0 mmol/L (> or =89 mg/dL) (hyperresponders) and 100 persons in whom triglyceride levels changed 0.1 mmol/L (< or =9 mg/dL) or less (nonresponders) during isotretinoin therapy for acne. Parents of 71 hyperresponders and 60 nonresponders were also evaluated. MEASUREMENTS: Waist-to-hip ratio; fasting glucose, insulin, and lipid levels; and apoE genotype. RESULTS: Hyperresponders and nonresponders had similar pretreatment body weight and plasma lipid levels. When reevaluated approximately 4 years after completion of isotretinoin therapy, hyperresponders were more likely to have hypertriglyceridemia (triglyceride level > 2.0 mmol/L [>177 mg/dL]; odds ratio [OR], 4.8 [95% CI, 1.6 to 13.8]), hypercholesterolemia (cholesterol level > 6.5 mmol/L [>252 mg/dL]; OR, 9.1 [CI, 1.9 to 43]), truncal obesity (waist-to-hip ratio > 0.90 [OR, 11.0 (CI, 2.0 to 59]), and hyperinsulinemia (insulin-glucose ratio > 7.2; OR, 3.0 [CI, 1.6 to 5.7]). In addition, more hyperresponders had at least one parent with hypertriglyceridemia (OR, 2.6 [CI, 1.2 to 5.7]) or a ratio of total to high-density lipoprotein cholesterol that exceeded 4.0 (OR, 3.5 [CI, 1.5 to 8.0]). Lipid response to isotretinoin was closely associated with the apoE gene. CONCLUSION: Persons who develop hypertriglyceridemia during isotretinoin therapy for acne, as well as their parents, are at increased risk for future hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome.
PMID: 11955026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by adamie on May 12, 2002, at 15:06:57
In reply to Re: Accutane effects ??? » adamie, posted by JohnX2 on May 12, 2002, at 4:16:28
thanks for the info. quite the discovery. no i have not had a basic physical. how do i go about this? and how do u go about testing myself for hyperinsul and the hypercholes? how do i get tested for everything? the dirty doctors are so pissy about getting any tests done.
what do i dooooooooooooooooooooooooo
also i had yellow skin and my wounds dont heal so easily anymore. a tiny scratch can leave a scar. i cant print out all this stuff to show the doctor so i dunno what the heck to do.
> Hi Adamie,
>
> Have you had a good basic physical to look for
> hypothyroid, endocrinology , etc?
>
> This may be a total crap-shoot, take it for what
> it is worth....
>
> But I found this abstract (below) regarding potential adverse effects of Accutane.
> One of them, hyperinsulinemia can lead to insulin
> intolerance and elevated glucose levels. The change
> in vision you described would fit this (it is a precursor symptom
> potentially to Type 2 diabetes, I believe)
>
> I also found this article regarding neurlogical
> implications of hyperinsulinemia (not sure on quality
> of information here):
>
> http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/issue78/item12.shtml
>
> Take Care,
> John
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
> High risk for hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome after an episode of hypertriglyceridemia during 13-cis retinoic acid therapy for acne: a pharmacogenetic study.
>
> Rodondi N, Darioli R, Ramelet AA, Hohl D, Lenain V, Perdrix J, Wietlisbach V, Riesen WF, Walther T, Medinger L, Nicod P, Desvergne B, Mooser V.
>
> Department of Internal Medicine, CHUV University Hospital, University Medical Policlinic, CH-1011 Lausanne, Switzerland.
>
> BACKGROUND: Administration of 13-cis retinoic acid (isotretinoin) for acne is occasionally accompanied by hyperlipidemia. It is not known why some persons develop this side effect. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether isotretinoin triggers a familial susceptibility to hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome. DESIGN: Cross-sectional comparison. SETTING: University hospital in Lausanne, Switzerland. PARTICIPANTS: 102 persons in whom triglyceride levels increased at least 1.0 mmol/L (> or =89 mg/dL) (hyperresponders) and 100 persons in whom triglyceride levels changed 0.1 mmol/L (< or =9 mg/dL) or less (nonresponders) during isotretinoin therapy for acne. Parents of 71 hyperresponders and 60 nonresponders were also evaluated. MEASUREMENTS: Waist-to-hip ratio; fasting glucose, insulin, and lipid levels; and apoE genotype. RESULTS: Hyperresponders and nonresponders had similar pretreatment body weight and plasma lipid levels. When reevaluated approximately 4 years after completion of isotretinoin therapy, hyperresponders were more likely to have hypertriglyceridemia (triglyceride level > 2.0 mmol/L [>177 mg/dL]; odds ratio [OR], 4.8 [95% CI, 1.6 to 13.8]), hypercholesterolemia (cholesterol level > 6.5 mmol/L [>252 mg/dL]; OR, 9.1 [CI, 1.9 to 43]), truncal obesity (waist-to-hip ratio > 0.90 [OR, 11.0 (CI, 2.0 to 59]), and hyperinsulinemia (insulin-glucose ratio > 7.2; OR, 3.0 [CI, 1.6 to 5.7]). In addition, more hyperresponders had at least one parent with hypertriglyceridemia (OR, 2.6 [CI, 1.2 to 5.7]) or a ratio of total to high-density lipoprotein cholesterol that exceeded 4.0 (OR, 3.5 [CI, 1.5 to 8.0]). Lipid response to isotretinoin was closely associated with the apoE gene. CONCLUSION: Persons who develop hypertriglyceridemia during isotretinoin therapy for acne, as well as their parents, are at increased risk for future hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome.
>
> PMID: 11955026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by JohnX2 on May 12, 2002, at 15:51:40
In reply to Re: Accutane effects ??? » JohnX2, posted by adamie on May 12, 2002, at 15:06:57
Wow , I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US even the general practictioners will do a basic screening to test for things like hypothyroid (a common underlying cause of depression symptoms).
I would get a thorough physical exam. Also maybe you can look into seeing an endocrinolist.
Printing out the information and correlating it to
your symptoms is good ammunition to get the doctors to to take you seriously. An endocrinologist does this for a living (looking at the things state in the abstract, insulin levels, hypothryoid etc). If you see an endocrinologist you are much less likely to get push back as they get paid to look at these things.I reiterate that I'm not very knowledgable in this area. It just seems logical to look at how the Accutane may have affected your body. And if it has may be best to treat those specific symptoms to improve your overall health and well-being.
Hope this helps,
John>thanks for the info. quite the discovery. no i have not had a basic physical. how do i go about this? and how do u go about testing myself for hyperinsul and the hypercholes? how do i get tested for everything? the dirty doctors are so pissy about getting any tests done.
>
> what do i dooooooooooooooooooooooooo
>
> also i had yellow skin and my wounds dont heal so easily anymore. a tiny scratch can leave a scar. i cant print out all this stuff to show the doctor so i dunno what the heck to do.
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Adamie,
> >
> > Have you had a good basic physical to look for
> > hypothyroid, endocrinology , etc?
> >
> > This may be a total crap-shoot, take it for what
> > it is worth....
> >
> > But I found this abstract (below) regarding potential adverse effects of Accutane.
> > One of them, hyperinsulinemia can lead to insulin
> > intolerance and elevated glucose levels. The change
> > in vision you described would fit this (it is a precursor symptom
> > potentially to Type 2 diabetes, I believe)
> >
> > I also found this article regarding neurlogical
> > implications of hyperinsulinemia (not sure on quality
> > of information here):
> >
> > http://www.diabetesincontrol.com/issue78/item12.shtml
> >
> > Take Care,
> > John
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >
> > High risk for hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome after an episode of hypertriglyceridemia during 13-cis retinoic acid therapy for acne: a pharmacogenetic study.
> >
> > Rodondi N, Darioli R, Ramelet AA, Hohl D, Lenain V, Perdrix J, Wietlisbach V, Riesen WF, Walther T, Medinger L, Nicod P, Desvergne B, Mooser V.
> >
> > Department of Internal Medicine, CHUV University Hospital, University Medical Policlinic, CH-1011 Lausanne, Switzerland.
> >
> > BACKGROUND: Administration of 13-cis retinoic acid (isotretinoin) for acne is occasionally accompanied by hyperlipidemia. It is not known why some persons develop this side effect. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether isotretinoin triggers a familial susceptibility to hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome. DESIGN: Cross-sectional comparison. SETTING: University hospital in Lausanne, Switzerland. PARTICIPANTS: 102 persons in whom triglyceride levels increased at least 1.0 mmol/L (> or =89 mg/dL) (hyperresponders) and 100 persons in whom triglyceride levels changed 0.1 mmol/L (< or =9 mg/dL) or less (nonresponders) during isotretinoin therapy for acne. Parents of 71 hyperresponders and 60 nonresponders were also evaluated. MEASUREMENTS: Waist-to-hip ratio; fasting glucose, insulin, and lipid levels; and apoE genotype. RESULTS: Hyperresponders and nonresponders had similar pretreatment body weight and plasma lipid levels. When reevaluated approximately 4 years after completion of isotretinoin therapy, hyperresponders were more likely to have hypertriglyceridemia (triglyceride level > 2.0 mmol/L [>177 mg/dL]; odds ratio [OR], 4.8 [95% CI, 1.6 to 13.8]), hypercholesterolemia (cholesterol level > 6.5 mmol/L [>252 mg/dL]; OR, 9.1 [CI, 1.9 to 43]), truncal obesity (waist-to-hip ratio > 0.90 [OR, 11.0 (CI, 2.0 to 59]), and hyperinsulinemia (insulin-glucose ratio > 7.2; OR, 3.0 [CI, 1.6 to 5.7]). In addition, more hyperresponders had at least one parent with hypertriglyceridemia (OR, 2.6 [CI, 1.2 to 5.7]) or a ratio of total to high-density lipoprotein cholesterol that exceeded 4.0 (OR, 3.5 [CI, 1.5 to 8.0]). Lipid response to isotretinoin was closely associated with the apoE gene. CONCLUSION: Persons who develop hypertriglyceridemia during isotretinoin therapy for acne, as well as their parents, are at increased risk for future hyperlipidemia and the metabolic syndrome.
> >
> > PMID: 11955026 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posted by jay on May 13, 2002, at 5:59:19
In reply to Re: Accutane effects ??? » adamie, posted by JohnX2 on May 12, 2002, at 15:51:40
>
>
> Wow , I don't know how it works in Canada, but in the US even the general practictioners will do a basic screening to test for things like hypothyroid (a common underlying cause of depression symptoms).
>
> I would get a thorough physical exam. Also maybe you can look into seeing an endocrinolist.
>
> Printing out the information and correlating it to
> your symptoms is good ammunition to get the doctors to to take you seriously. An endocrinologist does this for a living (looking at the things state in the abstract, insulin levels, hypothryoid etc). If you see an endocrinologist you are much less likely to get push back as they get paid to look at these things.
>
> I reiterate that I'm not very knowledgable in this area. It just seems logical to look at how the Accutane may have affected your body. And if it has may be best to treat those specific symptoms to improve your overall health and well-being.
>
> Hope this helps,
> John
>Adamie, I live in Canada, and you should have a regular annual physical. (I do.) You get all the same tests and and quality care, except we don't have to pay for it. :P (It's public, through taxes of course...sorry American friends.)
Don't you have a family doctor besides your psychiatrist? Well, find one in the phone book and take one. It will only take a few days to a week at most. Ask for a physical, and for those tests JohnX2 mentioned. Tell him/her of your situation re Acutane.
Good luck...let us know how you make out..
Jay
Let us know how you
Posted by adamie on May 13, 2002, at 14:30:53
In reply to Re: Accutane effects ??? » adamie, posted by JohnX2 on May 12, 2002, at 15:51:40
okay i maybe go tomorrow to family physician this is what i ask... i want a physicial exam because i tried so many damn meds and nothing works and that my depression and anxiety could be from some underlying issue. that i want to check my glucose levels and insulin levels... and what else? i will mention how accutane can cause hyperinsulinemia which can create depression, anxiety and other forms of mental illness.
what else do i need to say.
and how does a physical exam go? they take blood tests and things? what happens?
and i cant print out this stuff. no printer.
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 14, 2002, at 3:45:23
In reply to physical exam, how does it go? and.... » JohnX2, posted by adamie on May 13, 2002, at 14:30:53
Hi --
Congratulations on making an appointment with the doctor. This is a great step in the right direction.
Now, what you want to say to the doctor is that you want to 'rule out' medical causes for your anxiety and depression. Give him/her as concise an explanation of your symptoms as possible, but bring up the possibility of hyperinsulinimia.
There are a lot of things other than hyperinsulinimia that could organically cause depression and anxiety. Your doctor should know what they could be, but obvious ones would be low thyroid and other metabolic problems.
Good luck,
Elisa
Posted by BarbaraCat on May 15, 2002, at 13:42:59
In reply to severe INSTABILITY on medications, hopelessness, posted by adamie on May 11, 2002, at 21:58:58
Sounds to me like you're physically ill, and I'd bet a zillion bucks that your liver is hurting (yellow skin is a giveaway). Accutane can hurt liver function, among other effects. If indeed your liver is compromised, then you're going to have bad effects to almost all drugs. Drugs require an enzyme called cytochrome-P450 to break down and metabolize them. Bad liver function usually means that this enzyme is not working properly which means that any drug that requires P450 (which is just about every prescribed drug out there) is going to hurt the liver more, build up in your system, become toxic, etc. The one drug that helps liver function is SAM-e, so it's not surprising that it helped you.
Going to your regular doctor is a good start, however, the usual tests they give are very general and either won't spot a problem, or else their cure probably won't help. You need to see someone who is knowledable about liver support. This usually means a naturopath or a holistic oriented doctor.
It appears that your parents are financially unable or reluctant to support most of your ventures, but your physical health is crucial to your mental health. You can take matters into your own hands with very little money by taking herbal medicine. Perhaps your parents will eventually see that something is helping, is not too expensive, and they'll come around.
For starters, here are some inexpensive herbal suggestions that will help:
Milk Thistle (also called Sillymarin) the BEST!
Dandelion root
SAM-e (yeah, I know about the cost, but it works)Go to a health food store and ask for advice about liver support (milk thistle is the best). Keep it real simple and inexpensive. Eat very simply, no fried foods, lots of water. Good luck to you.
Posted by JohnX2 on May 15, 2002, at 18:40:01
In reply to Your liver is ill » adamie, posted by BarbaraCat on May 15, 2002, at 13:42:59
I too would be concerned about some overriding physical
illness exists that has the depression as a secondary symptom.Hypothyroid and diabetic symptoms both included yellow skin.
Yellow skin can be caused by a lot of things.I think it is *really important* to get into see a doctor
and have these tested out, as well as anything else that
may seem appropriate.Someone with untreated hypothyroid is going to have
a bitch of a time ever getting an AD to work. Just treating
the hypothyroid itself may be all that is needed.But who knows without the proper testing?
John
> Sounds to me like you're physically ill, and I'd bet a zillion bucks that your liver is hurting (yellow skin is a giveaway). Accutane can hurt liver function, among other effects. If indeed your liver is compromised, then you're going to have bad effects to almost all drugs. Drugs require an enzyme called cytochrome-P450 to break down and metabolize them. Bad liver function usually means that this enzyme is not working properly which means that any drug that requires P450 (which is just about every prescribed drug out there) is going to hurt the liver more, build up in your system, become toxic, etc. The one drug that helps liver function is SAM-e, so it's not surprising that it helped you.
>
> Going to your regular doctor is a good start, however, the usual tests they give are very general and either won't spot a problem, or else their cure probably won't help. You need to see someone who is knowledable about liver support. This usually means a naturopath or a holistic oriented doctor.
>
> It appears that your parents are financially unable or reluctant to support most of your ventures, but your physical health is crucial to your mental health. You can take matters into your own hands with very little money by taking herbal medicine. Perhaps your parents will eventually see that something is helping, is not too expensive, and they'll come around.
>
> For starters, here are some inexpensive herbal suggestions that will help:
>
> Milk Thistle (also called Sillymarin) the BEST!
> Dandelion root
> SAM-e (yeah, I know about the cost, but it works)
>
> Go to a health food store and ask for advice about liver support (milk thistle is the best). Keep it real simple and inexpensive. Eat very simply, no fried foods, lots of water. Good luck to you.
Posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2002, at 14:49:16
In reply to Your liver is ill » adamie, posted by BarbaraCat on May 15, 2002, at 13:42:59
Hey Bcat, my naturopath thinks that my memory problems may be related to toxic buildup of an AD in my system. Do you know anything about the effectiveness of fasting/homeopathic remedies to clear such problems?
Elisa
Posted by BarbaraCat on May 16, 2002, at 15:46:05
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill, posted by bookgurl99 on May 16, 2002, at 14:49:16
Before I answer this directly, let me first say that we have to be real careful about the whole issue of paranoia about antidepressants. I'm pretty hooked into the natural healing community and there's a great deal of antagonism between the allopathic and holistic practitioners, ESPECIALLY when it comes to treating such a multi-faceted problem as depression. You have to be extremely discerning and consider the source regarding who says what. Is it really a spiritual issue? A nature vs. nuture issue? A somatic vs. psychological thing? Best treated by herbs and yoga? On and on.
The answer as far as I'm concerned is YES to all the above, but even though I wish with all my heart I could heal myself with pure living, nothing works except medication - believe me, I've been down and all around that path. I need all the support I can get, but I need my meds. So with that out of the way...
Don't do a water fast because that will dump toxins into your system and make you real sick. You can clean out your system gently by eating primarily fruits and steamed veggies (not together at the same meal - fruit until noon and veggies until 6 -- all you want!). Don't eat anything after 6 pm except for herbal tea and drink LOTS of filtered water everyday. It's best to go slow at first, one day a week for a month, then 2 days a everyother week for a month, the third month go for 5 days only. You'll be feeling pretty great after a five day cleanout. Work up to 10 days if you can of eating only fruit until noon, then steamed veggies until 6. Raw lettuce and sprouts are OK, but don't eat raw carrots, broccoli or hard to digest veggies - they have to be steamed. Lot's of good books on the subject.
Get a good colon regulator that's not too harsh, something with plantago, flax seeds, psyllium and best yet, triphala, so that you're moving the toxins out. Use it every night. A good natural foods store with a knowledgeable staff can help choose one. Again, LOTS of water.
Good herbs are dandelion root and milk thistle which is actually used in hepatitis to rebuild the liver. Take them in liquid tincture form rather than pills.
Glutathione is important in that it detoxifies and provides a good nutritional support for an amazing array of things. You can't just take it by the pill, however, but need to take it's precursors. SAME-e is good for this. There are some specialized denatured whey products that claim to boost glutathione levels. A good info site is www.immunesupport.com, however, they do sell products so again, you have to use discernment.
Also, there are loads of books on detoxifying, which primarily means taking the load off the liver. I'm sure your naturopath can give you alot of guidance here. But be careful of those who think ADs are evil incarnate and ascribe all kinds of bad health problems to them. They most likely have never been where we've been and just don't understand. The important thing is to keep taking what works, and to also realize there's a price to pay with any substance that has to get broken down by the liver. Oh, and did I mention alcohol? That's the hardest one for me since it can get me feeling good so fast! Hope this helps. Barbara
> Hey Bcat, my naturopath thinks that my memory problems may be related to toxic buildup of an AD in my system. Do you know anything about the effectiveness of fasting/homeopathic remedies to clear such problems?
>
> Elisa
Posted by MoBe on October 26, 2003, at 12:48:22
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill » bookgurl99, posted by BarbaraCat on May 16, 2002, at 15:46:05
> Before I answer this directly, let me first say that we have to be real careful about the whole issue of paranoia about antidepressants. I'm pretty hooked into the natural healing community and there's a great deal of antagonism between the allopathic and holistic practitioners, ESPECIALLY when it comes to treating such a multi-faceted problem as depression. You have to be extremely discerning and consider the source regarding who says what. Is it really a spiritual issue? A nature vs. nuture issue? A somatic vs. psychological thing? Best treated by herbs and yoga? On and on.
>
> The answer as far as I'm concerned is YES to all the above, but even though I wish with all my heart I could heal myself with pure living, nothing works except medication - believe me, I've been down and all around that path. I need all the support I can get, but I need my meds. So with that out of the way...
>
> Don't do a water fast because that will dump toxins into your system and make you real sick. You can clean out your system gently by eating primarily fruits and steamed veggies (not together at the same meal - fruit until noon and veggies until 6 -- all you want!). Don't eat anything after 6 pm except for herbal tea and drink LOTS of filtered water everyday. It's best to go slow at first, one day a week for a month, then 2 days a everyother week for a month, the third month go for 5 days only. You'll be feeling pretty great after a five day cleanout. Work up to 10 days if you can of eating only fruit until noon, then steamed veggies until 6. Raw lettuce and sprouts are OK, but don't eat raw carrots, broccoli or hard to digest veggies - they have to be steamed. Lot's of good books on the subject.
>
> Get a good colon regulator that's not too harsh, something with plantago, flax seeds, psyllium and best yet, triphala, so that you're moving the toxins out. Use it every night. A good natural foods store with a knowledgeable staff can help choose one. Again, LOTS of water.
>
> Good herbs are dandelion root and milk thistle which is actually used in hepatitis to rebuild the liver. Take them in liquid tincture form rather than pills.
>
> Glutathione is important in that it detoxifies and provides a good nutritional support for an amazing array of things. You can't just take it by the pill, however, but need to take it's precursors. SAME-e is good for this. There are some specialized denatured whey products that claim to boost glutathione levels. A good info site is www.immunesupport.com, however, they do sell products so again, you have to use discernment.
>
> Also, there are loads of books on detoxifying, which primarily means taking the load off the liver. I'm sure your naturopath can give you alot of guidance here. But be careful of those who think ADs are evil incarnate and ascribe all kinds of bad health problems to them. They most likely have never been where we've been and just don't understand. The important thing is to keep taking what works, and to also realize there's a price to pay with any substance that has to get broken down by the liver. Oh, and did I mention alcohol? That's the hardest one for me since it can get me feeling good so fast! Hope this helps. Barbara
>
> > Hey Bcat, my naturopath thinks that my memory problems may be related to toxic buildup of an AD in my system. Do you know anything about the effectiveness of fasting/homeopathic remedies to clear such problems?
> >
> > Elisa
> Hi everyone
I am following this thread partly because of the mention of triphala. I've read quite a bit on this and and have been using it for quite some time to undo the constipation side effect of my antidepressent mix. However - I seem to have run into contradictory advice. Some "sites" say its safe in any amount. In other words - take the amount you need to do the job. Others say the upper safe limit is 3000 mg a day. That amount does not do it for me. I have tried many things for the constipation but none of them work as well as the triphala. Anybody else had any experience, including any of you who may have a degree in pharmacy. Thanks.MoBe
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 26, 2003, at 14:40:58
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill » BarbaraCat, posted by MoBe on October 26, 2003, at 12:48:22
> > Hi everyone
> I am following this thread partly because of the mention of triphala. I've read quite a bit on this and and have been using it for quite some time to undo the constipation side effect of my antidepressent mix. However - I seem to have run into contradictory advice. Some "sites" say its safe in any amount. In other words - take the amount you need to do the job. Others say the upper safe limit is 3000 mg a day. That amount does not do it for me. I have tried many things for the constipation but none of them work as well as the triphala. Anybody else had any experience, including any of you who may have a degree in pharmacy. Thanks.**My ayurvedic practitioner recommends 1 teaspoon of the dry herb. I also have Planetary Formulas triphala that recommends 4 grams, so your 3 grams doesn't sound like too much. Triphala tones the intestine but doesn't provide fiber so taking something like psyllium or such will provide the broom action.
>
>
Posted by MoBe on October 26, 2003, at 19:48:57
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill, posted by BarbaraCat on October 26, 2003, at 14:40:58
Hey Barbaracat - thanks for your prompt response -I've been using Planetary Formulas as well - the Tri Cleanse one with triphala, flax, guar gum, psyllium etc.They suggest one teaspoon once or twice a day. It works for me but I double or triple that dose. What bothered me is that one of the sites said triphala contains anthraquinone which is the substance, I beleive that causes the dependence in herbs such as senna. Thanks.
MoBe
Posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 10:54:17
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill » BarbaraCat, posted by MoBe on October 26, 2003, at 19:48:57
> What bothered me is that one of the sites said triphala contains anthraquinone which is the substance, I beleive that causes the dependence in herbs such as senna.
**Hi Mobe,
I've heard that's one of the reasons to take it along with an agent such as psyllium, flax, etc. They absorb water and release it slowly along with providing insoluble fiber and bulk. The intestinal walls need a sense of bulk to stimulte peristalsis. It's the shutting down of the peristaltic tone that's one of the results of our medication culprits. Taking senna, cascara sagrada, Xlax, etc. irritates the bowel. They're helpful for initiating the urge but do nothing for intestinal tone and can pull water out of the intestines since they usually cause mild diarrhea once they finally start to work.The bulking agents stimulate peristalsis and prevent the intestines from getting lazy. You have to drink about 64 oz water a day however. Psyllium et al can glom into a bezor, a kind of hairball, if there isn't enough water. Well, happy constitutionals to us all. Life sure can seem crappy when you're bunged up. - Barbara
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 27, 2003, at 21:48:16
In reply to Re: Your liver is ill » MoBe, posted by BarbaraCat on October 27, 2003, at 10:54:17
> > What bothered me is that one of the sites said triphala contains anthraquinone...
I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding alternative treatments to Psycho-Babble Alternative. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/274088.html
Thanks,
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.