![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Henryo on August 20, 2003, at 16:27:35
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post » cubbybear, posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 8:30:12
Lou, you stated that you could give a "comprehensive" reply to the above question. Please clarify what you mean by "a comprehensive reply". You also state that your answer is dependent on wether cubbybear himself is withdrawing from the BZD or if he is asking for a different reason. How do his reasons for asking pertain to a possible answer. Are you expressing your opinions or can you list credentials, sources and links in your reply.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 16:40:14
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post, posted by Henryo on August 20, 2003, at 16:27:35
CB,
Your request for infomation about suppliments to help with withdrawal from BZDs caused me to think that you are the one withdrawaling from such. But there could be another reason for the request and if it is you that is withdrawing, then I can help you to do so. If it is just infomation that you want about suppliments, you could get that infomation without too much help on the net.
I have been writing for over two years here about overcomming addiction and depression. I was given BZD by as neurologist to trat a neurological condition and was addicted to BZD for he did not tell me of the consequences that this drug could have. I am free from that drug and I can give you infomation to help you be free from the drug at your rquest. I have done extensive research on BZD withdrawal and have helped others to bee free from this drug.
Lou
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 20, 2003, at 17:55:55
In reply to Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals?, posted by cubbybear on August 20, 2003, at 1:21:37
B-complex sublingual liquid, high-dose niacinamide (i.e. 2-4 grams per day), high-dose melatonin, and kava kava supposedly can all work wonders. Of these that I've listed, niacinamide and melatonin have several studies to back them up; a B-complex vitamin is just sort of common sense, and kava kava (or valerian, passionflower, catnip, damiana, blue lotus, wild dagga... whatever floats your boat) can undoubtedly help with the symptoms of returning anxiety.
Posted by jlo820 on August 20, 2003, at 21:09:16
In reply to Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals?, posted by cubbybear on August 20, 2003, at 1:21:37
They are not vitamins or minerals, but often if one is trying to withdraw from the short-acting benzos (Xanax, Ativan, etc.), they can be given the longer-acting benzos to help them through the process. Klonopin and Valium are the ones usually used for this purpose.
Posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 2:13:43
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post » cubbybear, posted by Lou Pilder on August 20, 2003, at 8:30:12
> cubbybear,
> You wrote,[...does anyone have conclusive evidence that a vit. or min.helps in BZD withdrawal?...].
> Could you clarify if it is you that is withdrawaing from the BZD or if you want this infomation for a different reason?
> If you could, then I could provide a comprehensive reply according to your answer.
> LouIt's ME who's doing the withdrawing. The drug is Klonopin and I'm going about it very slowly. Was originally on 4 mg/day, am now down to 1.5 mg a day, decreasing at a rate of .125 mg every 10 days or so. Maybe I'm asking for the impossible, but I still experience mild withdrawal anxiety every so often and was curious about a vitamin or mineral that might be helpful.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 21, 2003, at 2:56:32
In reply to Re: Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals?, posted by jlo820 on August 20, 2003, at 21:09:16
> They are not vitamins or minerals, but often if one is trying to withdraw from the short-acting benzos (Xanax, Ativan, etc.), they can be given the longer-acting benzos to help them through the process. Klonopin and Valium are the ones usually used for this purpose.
That's true, that *is* the easiest way to go about it. Switching to phenobarbital is a technique also often employed, and can actually be even better than Valium or Klonopin as its duration of action is longer than Valium's and just a little less than Klonopin's (phenobarb: 6-8 hours) and its half-life is way longer than either of their's (two-six days). Oh, guess I should mention that barbiturates are cross-tolerant with benzos (as is alcohol), or else you may wonder what the hell I'm talking about. :-)
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 6:54:15
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post » Lou Pilder, posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 2:13:43
CB,
First, I was also given K, aka Clonazapam.
I went through a horrific withdrawal and have been free from this drug for over 5 years. I have no withdrawal symptoms and it is as if I never took the drug. My story is different from others, but those that have used me as a resorce have been able to overcome their addiction and withdrawal from this drug.
I investigated suppliments, and found that it was better for me to not use them in my withdrawal plan. I know of no proven remedy from suppliments to alleviate withdrawal symptoms. However, if it makes you more comfortable to try one, do so but read up on the ingrediants to see that none of them could be harmfull.
I am not a member of the community that advocates tapering to withdrawal from this drug. The plan is sweet in theory, ie that you will ween off the drug and your brain will get used to having less each cut and such. But if a person had a major sunburn, would you have them go out on the heat of the sun each day for less and less time? You see, the drugs action on the neurons in your brain would keep doing the same thing even in smaller amounts. There are many people that I know that have tapered down to a smidgen and then went into withdrawal just as if they would have not tapered. In one case, a mam called me from a hospital and was on his last cut and they had to increase the dosage back up to when he started.
Now there are reports of those that taper and it works for them. But they still took the drug in their system for many more months or even years. I have investigated going to withdrawal clinics, but I disagree with substituting a barbituate or another BZD.
If you wake up in torment durring your withdrawal, and want to get rid of this drug from your systwm, let me know and I will direct a way to be free from it. If you want to taper, and you someware find yourself in a horrific situation, do not fear, for remember that I overcame that and so can others.
Lou
Posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 9:24:15
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD » cubbybear, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 6:54:15
Are you serious? Are you telling me that one should NOT taper off this medication? Are you hinting that I should go cold turkey? The end of your post is vague, you don't mention what your "secret" method is, and you cite one outrageous incident as a basis for your argument with few details--not to mention the well-known fact that everyone's experience with drugs, as well as withdrawing from them, is different. I have been using a number of posts on this board as a basis for my tapering system, taking one day at a time and doing pretty decently with it. I'm not going to be a fool and go cold turkey at this point (1.5 mg) if that's what you'are getting at.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 9:31:31
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD » Lou Pilder, posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 9:24:15
CB,
To taper or not to taper is the question. I belive that what i wrote was that I am not a member of the scool that advocates tapering. But at the same time, I belive that if you wanted to taper, then go ahead.
I did not mention what my method is because it is a last resort to those that can not withdrawal by other methods and invited you to contact me if you got to that point. I can be contacted at:
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Lou
Posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 10:02:30
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD CT » cubbybear, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 9:31:31
>>> I did not mention what my method is because it is a last resort to those that can not withdrawal by other methods and invited you to contact me if you got to that point.
Why don't you post it here so we can all see what it is and comment on it. No reason to keep secrets.
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 10:11:16
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD CT, posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 10:02:30
CB,
You wrote,[...why don't you post it here...].
I was wondering ,cubby bear, if you are a new person to this mental health community or have been a discussant for a long time?
Lou
Posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 13:14:40
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -7GRCOL » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 10:11:16
Why do you ask people so many questions?
Are you going to post your secret cure or not?
Cubbybear has been around a while, what does that have to do with posting your secret cure?
Posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 13:57:56
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -7GRCOL, posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 13:14:40
jlo820,
You wrote,[...why do you ask so many questions?...]
So that I can understand more about what is being discussed.
You wrote,[...CB has been around awhile...]
I also would like to know if you have been around awhile because of your other question about [secret].
Lou
Posted by jaynee on August 21, 2003, at 14:19:48
In reply to Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals?, posted by cubbybear on August 20, 2003, at 1:21:37
NM
Posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 14:45:21
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -jlo820 » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 13:57:56
I give up.
With all due civility, you don't ask questions about what is being discussed, you ask people to explain themselves to you before you offer to supposedly help them.
This board is about helping people. We don't need to make them play 20 questions. If we have something to offer, we offer it.
We don't question others history and we don't judge others.
I encourage you to post here as often as you like, but I really think you need to work on the tone of your posts.
So, if you have a secret cure for benzodiazepine withdrawal, let us know. If not...
No reply is necesary.
Posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 21:25:18
In reply to Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -7GRCOL » jlo820, posted by Lou Pilder on August 21, 2003, at 10:11:16
> CB,
> You wrote,[...why don't you post it here...].I did not write the above sentence. Look carefully at the poster's name.
> I was wondering ,cubby bear, if you are a new person to this mental health community or have been a discussant for a long time?
> LouOf what relevance is that? Your comments are going off on non-medical tangents and I suspect that before long Dr. Bob might rightfully re-direct the thread. I wouldn't want to see that. Keep your questions to the point and be upfront about benzodiazepines.
Posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 21:35:44
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -jlo820, posted by jlo820 on August 21, 2003, at 14:45:21
> I give up.
>
> With all due civility, you don't ask questions about what is being discussed, you ask people to explain themselves to you before you offer to supposedly help them.
>
> This board is about helping people. We don't need to make them play 20 questions. If we have something to offer, we offer it.
>
> We don't question others history and we don't judge others.
>
> I encourage you to post here as often as you like, but I really think you need to work on the tone of your posts.
>
> So, if you have a secret cure for benzodiazepine withdrawal, let us know. If not...
>
> No reply is necesary.Well spoken, jlo. I am going to bail out of this thread. I almost feel like I've been interrogated by an attorney. I want to thank everyone who has provided *helpful* info for me. CB
>
Posted by Simcha on August 21, 2003, at 22:55:44
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD » Lou Pilder, posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 9:24:15
Cubbybear,
Definitely taper! Please! It's DANGEROUS to do otherwise especially if you have been on clonazepam for a long time.
I tapered. I had a fairly easy time with it. ALL GOOD DOCTORS give taper schedules because of the danger of quitting cold turkey.
I ate a balanced diet and I take supplements anyway. Maybe it helped. But definitely taper. Don't end up in the emergency room.
Blessings Simcha
> Are you serious? Are you telling me that one should NOT taper off this medication? Are you hinting that I should go cold turkey? The end of your post is vague, you don't mention what your "secret" method is, and you cite one outrageous incident as a basis for your argument with few details--not to mention the well-known fact that everyone's experience with drugs, as well as withdrawing from them, is different. I have been using a number of posts on this board as a basis for my tapering system, taking one day at a time and doing pretty decently with it. I'm not going to be a fool and go cold turkey at this point (1.5 mg) if that's what you'are getting at.
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 22, 2003, at 0:03:29
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -7GRCOL » Lou Pilder, posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 21:25:18
> I suspect that before long Dr. Bob might rightfully re-direct the thread.
Yes, I'd like questions about Lou's method to be emailed to him, follow-ups about posting and other administrative issues to be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration, and follow-ups about other issues not related to medication to be redirected to Psycho-Social-Babble.
But it's fine for follow-ups about withdrawal from benzodiazepines to stay right here. :-)
Bob
Posted by cubbybear on August 22, 2003, at 0:43:04
In reply to Re: Cubbybear's post -BZDWD WARNING~! » cubbybear, posted by Simcha on August 21, 2003, at 22:55:44
> Cubbybear,
>
> Definitely taper! Please! It's DANGEROUS to do otherwise especially if you have been on clonazepam for a long time.
>
> I tapered. I had a fairly easy time with it. ALL GOOD DOCTORS give taper schedules because of the danger of quitting cold turkey.
>
> I ate a balanced diet and I take supplements anyway. Maybe it helped. But definitely taper. Don't end up in the emergency room.
>
> Blessings Simcha
>
>
OK, I said I'm bailing out of this thread but I will return to put your mind at ease. Perhaps you misunderstood my reply to Lou. I most definitely AM tapering. It's at the very slow rate of .125 mg. every 10 days (minimum). I wouldn't be such a fool as to go cold turkey.
>
>
Posted by Simcha on August 22, 2003, at 1:19:22
In reply to Re: Cubbybear's post -BZDWD WARNING~!, posted by cubbybear on August 22, 2003, at 0:43:04
Cubbybear,
Whew! I'm glad... Thanks for the reply. I'm glad you are following medical advice.
Blessings,
Simcha
> OK, I said I'm bailing out of this thread but I will return to put your mind at ease. Perhaps you misunderstood my reply to Lou. I most definitely AM tapering. It's at the very slow rate of .125 mg. every 10 days (minimum). I wouldn't be such a fool as to go cold turkey.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:59:36
In reply to Re: Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals? » cubbybear, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 20, 2003, at 17:55:55
> B-complex sublingual liquid, high-dose niacinamide (i.e. 2-4 grams per day), high-dose melatonin, and kava kava supposedly can all work wonders. Of these that I've listed, niacinamide and melatonin have several studies to back them up; a B-complex vitamin is just sort of common sense, and kava kava (or valerian, passionflower, catnip, damiana, blue lotus, wild dagga... whatever floats your boat) can undoubtedly help with the symptoms of returning anxiety.
I totally agree with this approach, but I would add magnesium (300 -500 mg/day, in divided doses), as well.
Watch the niacinamide, though. 4,000 mg/day should only be for short periods of time. Toxic reactions can occur over extended periods.
Lar
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 22, 2003, at 11:19:47
In reply to Re: Lou's reply to cubbybear's post -BZDWD » Lou Pilder, posted by cubbybear on August 21, 2003, at 9:24:15
I'm certainly glad to read that you know better than to go cold turkey off of a benzodiazepine. The mild discomfort of a proper tapering schedule is nothing compared to the possibility of convulsions and death from discontinuing at such a "high" dose of Klonopin (I know it's a fairly low dose by many standards, but not when you consider that's it's roughly equivalent to 30mg Valium or 3mg Xanax). Other than the way you're doing it, the *ONLY* safe way to discontinue is to substitute it with a long half-life benzo or barbiturate. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. If someone recommended to you in person that you quit a benzodiazepine cold-turkey like that and you were to die because of it, I'm pretty sure that person could be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license. The same would most likely hold true for internet advice -- familiar with the "Ripper" story? The kid who OD'd live on his webcam on methadone, propranolol, clonazepam, mushrooms, and pot while the other kids in the IRC chat egged him on? Well last I heard, the family is following through with prosecution. Same principle.
Anyway, I'd do one of three things if I were you:
1. Keep decreasing the dose in the manner you currently are, and add on 500mg niacinamide four times a day (or 1500mg extended-release niacinamide twice daily), anywhere from 1-100mcg melatonin before bed (whatever works best), and take a powerful herbal preparation as necessary (i.e. valerian root, passion flower, kava kava, California poppy -- preferably in liquid form).
2. Substitute phenobarbital for the clonazepam during the withdrawal. The procedure normally goes like this: For the first week, a dose of phenobarbital equivalent to the dose of the benzodiazepine you're taking is given divided into four equal doses daily -- 1.5mg of clonazepam is equivalent to 90mg phenobarbital. So, you'd start with 22.5mg four times daily (qid) for the first week. The second week, decrease the dose by 5% -- thus, 85.5mg phenobarbital, divided into 21.375mg qid. Third week, you'd decrease another 5% -- 20.25mg qid. Fourth week, 19.125mg qid; fifth week, 18mg qid; sixth week, 16.875mg qid; seventh week, 15.75mg qid; eighth week, 14.625mg qid; ninth week, 13.5mg qid; tenth week, 12.375mg qid; eleventh week, 11.25mg qid; twelfth week, 10.125mg qid; thirteenth week, 9mg qid; fourteenth week, 7.875mg qid; fifteenth week, 6.75mg qid; sixteenth, 5.625mg qid; seventeenth week, 4.5mg qid; eighteenth week, 3.375mg qid; nineteenth week, 3.25mg qid; twentieth week, 2.125mg qid; twenty-first week, 1mg qid. This last small amount would most likely be withdrawn at a rate of 0.125mg every week or two, depending on your personal comfort level. So obviously, because such large doses are needed for phenobarbital as compared to clonazepam, each decrease in dose is extremely small and should cause no discomfort whatsoever -- each 5% decrease is 1.125mg of phenobarbital, which is equivalent to less than 1/50 mg of clonazepam. Of course, phenobarbital in capsule or tablet form only comes in 8, 15, 16, 30, 32, 60, 65 and 100mg sizes, so for accurate dosage measurements, an elixer can be used. Elixers are available that contain either 15 or 20mg of phenobarbital per 5ml, allowing for exact dosing.
3. Substitute Valium (diazepam) or Tranxene (clorazepate) for clonazepam -- preferably Tranxene, whose half-life is about twice as long as Valium's. 60mg clorazepate or 30mg diazepam is equivalent to 1.5mg clonazepam. The tapering schedule would be basically the same as for phenobarbital, except that diazepam would be spread out in five doses over the course of the day instead of four. In the case of clorazepate:
Week 1: 15mg qid
Week 2: 14.25mg qid
Week 3: 13.5mg qid
Week 4: 12.75mg qid
Week 5: 12mg qid
Week 6: 11.25mg qid
Week 7: 10.5mg qid
Week 8: 9.75mg qid
Week 9: 9mg qid
Week 10: 8.25mg qid
Week 11: 7.5mg qid
Week 12: 6.75mg qid
Week 13: 6mg qid
Week 14: 5.25mg qid
Week 15: 4.5mg qid
Week 16: 3.75mg qid
Week 17: 3mg qid
Week 18: 2.25mg qid
Week 19: 1.5mg qidThe last 1.5mg would be decreased by 0.25mg each week or two. And once again, an elixer should be used -- though I believe you'd have to have one specially made at a compounding pharmacy.
The phenobarbital/switching benzos options seem the most promising, though whatever you decide, I wish you luck!
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 22, 2003, at 11:21:26
In reply to Re: Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 8:59:36
You're definitely right about the magnesium -- perhaps a good calcium supp. as well?
I wasn't aware of the danger of toxicity from these larger doses of niacinamide, thanks for letting me know! I take 2 grams daily myself -- would you consider this in the "safe" range? Thanks!
~~Michael
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2003, at 11:55:07
In reply to Re: Benzo Withdrawal--Any Helpful Vitamins/Minerals? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ame Sans Vie on August 22, 2003, at 11:21:26
> You're definitely right about the magnesium -- perhaps a good calcium supp. as well?
Most people get enough calcium, IMHO. Well, more people get enough calcium than the percentage who get enough magnesium. Calcium wouldn't hurt.
> I wasn't aware of the danger of toxicity from these larger doses of niacinamide, thanks for letting me know! I take 2 grams daily myself -- would you consider this in the "safe" range? Thanks!
>
> ~~MichaelThe Upper Limit is 2 g/day. That's got a "fudge factor" built in, so 4 grams might be safe for some people. If toxicity does occur, it's the liver that gets hit.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Medication | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.