![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 50. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by andys on July 29, 2003, at 13:33:16
There's a lot of confusion about tyrosine and phenylalanine (and its benefit, used with dexedrine). I have whittled it down to what makes sense to me, and would like this critiqued by those in the know:
A---It’s the HYDROXYLAZE version of the aminos that cross the blood/brain barrier.B---Tyrosine hydroxylaze is desirable, because it supports brain dopamine and norepinepherine.
Phenylalanine hydroxylaze is NOT desirable, because it gives a stimulant effect in the brain, and in the rebound, may actually DEPLETE brain dopamine and norepinepherine.C---Tyrosine hydroxylaze is converted to L-dopa in the brain, and then converted to dopamine, and to a lesser extent, norepinepherine.
D---The tyrosine hydroxylaze BOTTLENECK:
Although tyrosine hydroxylaze is very desirable in the brain, there is a bottleneck at the blood/brain barrier, where only a minimal amount of tyrosine hydroxylaze can cross into the brain.
Because of this bottleneck, there are only two reasons to take tyrosine:
1---You’re not getting sufficient tyrosine in your diet (which is rarely the case, unless vegetarian).
2---You’re on a stimulant, such as Dexedrine, and tyrosine can restore the dopamine/norepinepherine lost through
Dexedrine use.Where does PEA fit in this equation?
Tyrosine is very beneficial, if taking Dexedrine
Although several articles and actual studies support this, it doesn’t quite make sense: Since the tyrosine hydroxylaze is limited in its amount that can cross the blood/brain barrier, I doubt if MORE is allowed past the barrier, just because dopamine is depleted by Dexedrine.Take tyrosine with juice, on an empty stomach, and not with other protein, aminos, or phenylalanine.
My understanding of this theory is that you can maximize the amount of tyrosine hydroxylaze that crosses the blood/brain barrier, if it isn’t competing with other aminos crossing the barrier at the same time. This is true for other aminos, but especially for phenylalanine, which is why you shouldn’t take phenylalanine within HOURS of taking tyrosine.The reasons to not take phenylalanine
A---The reason for not taking phenylalanine with tyrosine:
Since phenylalanine DIRECTLY converts to phenylalanine hydroxylase, it FLOODS the access to the blood/brain barrier, competing with the tyrosine hydroxylaze. But since phenylalanine DIRECTLY converts into phenylalanine hydroxylaze, it is going to reach the blood/brain barrier faster than tyrosine, which hs several metabolic steps for tyrosine hydroxylaze.B---The reason for not taking phenylalanine AT ALL
1---Phenylalanine gives a short stimulant effect in the brain, but then has a rebound effect of DEPLETING dopamine and norepinepherine.
2---Poop-out of phenylalanine is very common, and, like other stimulants, you have to take some days off, to get the benefit back. However, this yo-yo effect is probably destabilizing for bipolars (or unipolars as well).
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 6:53:38
In reply to stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on July 29, 2003, at 13:33:16
> There's a lot of confusion about tyrosine and phenylalanine (and its benefit, used with dexedrine). I have whittled it down to what makes sense to me, and would like this critiqued by those in the know:
You've gotten many of the ideas mixed up, Andy. For example, the hydroxylases you refer to are enzymes, not amino acids.
> A---It’s the HYDROXYLAZE version of the aminos that cross the blood/brain barrier.
The amino acids are literally pumped across the blood-brain barrier, but they do so in their simple amino acid form. That said, some supplements (e.g. L-dopa, 5-HTP) will also cross the blood-brain barrier, but those are not normally found in blood to begin with. The only reason they would be in the blood would be supplementation.
> B---Tyrosine hydroxylaze is desirable, because it supports brain dopamine and norepinepherine.Tyrosine hydroxylase is an enzyme. It hydroxylates tyrosine to L-dopa. L-dopa is then converted to dopamine.
> Phenylalanine hydroxylaze is NOT desirable, because it gives a stimulant effect in the brain, and in the rebound, may actually DEPLETE brain dopamine and norepinepherine.
I don't know where you got this idea. Phenylalanine is converted to tyrosine, which then goes to L-dopa and dopamine. Phenylalanine also does other things, but there most certainly is no rebound effect to consider.
> C---Tyrosine hydroxylaze is converted to L-dopa in the brain, and then converted to dopamine, and to a lesser extent, norepinepherine.Tyrosine hydroxylase is the rate-limiting step in the conversion of tyrosine leading to dopamine. What that means is that the body uses this enzyme to control total dopamine availability. The second step in the conversion, from L-dopa to dopamine, occurs virtually instantaneously, because that step is not rate-controlled. There is less norepinephrine produced than dopamine from a given amount of tyrosine simply because norepinephrine is further down the process.
> D---The tyrosine hydroxylaze BOTTLENECK:
> Although tyrosine hydroxylaze is very desirable in the brain, there is a bottleneck at the blood/brain barrier, where only a minimal amount of tyrosine hydroxylaze can cross into the brain.The pumps I mentioned earlier control the availability of tyrosine in the brain (also diet is a factor, as you have to have the tyrosine in your blood for it to be pumped). There is competition at the pumps, so the relative availability of the aminos is also a factor, i.e. eating poor quality protein can cause amino acid imbalances.
> Because of this bottleneck, there are only two reasons to take tyrosine:
> 1---You’re not getting sufficient tyrosine in your diet (which is rarely the case, unless vegetarian).I agree with that, but.... you can enhance the availability of tyrosine (by supplementation, taken on an empty stomach), which will, at least temporarily, over-ride the rate-limiting effect of the enzymes, and increase brain dopamine supply.
> 2---You’re on a stimulant, such as Dexedrine, and tyrosine can restore the dopamine/norepinepherine lost through
> Dexedrine use.Again, diet should supply your needs. Your body should also adapt to the routine use of stimulants. That said, you can boost your body's "efficiency" at producing dopamine with appropriate supplementation. Either tyrosine or phenylalanine will do the trick.
> Where does PEA fit in this equation?PEA is phenylethylamine. It is one of the other products of phenylalanine (i.e. not produced from tyrosine). Taking the racemic form of phenylalanine (d-,l-phenylalanine, or DLPA) will enhance PEA formation.
> Tyrosine is very beneficial, if taking Dexedrine
> Although several articles and actual studies support this, it doesn’t quite make sense: Since the tyrosine hydroxylaze is limited in its amount that can cross the blood/brain barrier, I doubt if MORE is allowed past the barrier, just because dopamine is depleted by Dexedrine.The pumps will work more efficiently if there's more tyrosine or phenylalanine in the blood. The level of hydroxylase enzymes is probably more under genetic control than environmental (i.e. diet and stress), but all enzymes work better when you supply more raw materials. They don't think. They are processing machines, and more input equals more output. Period.
> Take tyrosine with juice, on an empty stomach, and not with other protein, aminos, or phenylalanine.Juice not required, but wouldn't hurt. The idea is to get the pure amino in relative high concentration at the pump. The more tyrosine "lining up" at the pump, the more gets into the brain. Empty stomach (no protein) is essential for the high concentration effect to occur.
> My understanding of this theory is that you can maximize the amount of tyrosine hydroxylaze that crosses the blood/brain barrier, if it isn’t competing with other aminos crossing the barrier at the same time. This is true for other aminos, but especially for phenylalanine, which is why you shouldn’t take phenylalanine within HOURS of taking tyrosine.
They both compete for the same pump. I see no reason to choose between the two (tyrosine or phenylalanine), but you may have reasons that appeal to you. The pump in question, the LNAAT (Large Neutral Amino Acid Transporter), also is responsible for tryptophan uptake (precursor to serotonin). You have to balance your manipulations out, so you don't block tryptophan uptake entirely.
> The reasons to not take phenylalanine
>
> A---The reason for not taking phenylalanine with tyrosine:
> Since phenylalanine DIRECTLY converts to phenylalanine hydroxylase, it FLOODS the access to the blood/brain barrier, competing with the tyrosine hydroxylaze. But since phenylalanine DIRECTLY converts into phenylalanine hydroxylaze, it is going to reach the blood/brain barrier faster than tyrosine, which hs several metabolic steps for tyrosine hydroxylaze.That's just not how it works.
> B---The reason for not taking phenylalanine AT ALL
> 1---Phenylalanine gives a short stimulant effect in the brain, but then has a rebound effect of DEPLETING dopamine and norepinepherine.Again, not correct.
> 2---Poop-out of phenylalanine is very common, and, like other stimulants, you have to take some days off, to get the benefit back. However, this yo-yo effect is probably destabilizing for bipolars (or unipolars as well).
>Again, that's not how I understand things.
Tyrosine is considered to be a stimulating amino. Phenylalanine also, but less so (for most people). They have equal access to the LNAAT pump (similar affinity), so which one gets into the brain in higher concentration is determined by blood concentration, more than anything else. Tryptophan does not compete well with either one, at the pump (lower binding affinity). After a high-protein meal, eat something with a high glycemic index (something that will cause insulin levels to spike), like something sweet. That will cause the muscles to turn on their amino uptake pumps, but muscles don't take up tryptophan to any appreciable extent. That will clear the blood of all the competitors to tryptophan at the blood-brain uptake pump, and promote tryptophan uptake.
Lar
Posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 11:19:50
In reply to stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on July 29, 2003, at 13:33:16
Lar,
I was so pleased that you responded, since your past postings have shown real expertise on the subject. I'm in a pretty depressive period right now, so my brain isn't working too well. So it will take some time to digest your response, and make an intelligent response.
In the meantime, do you feel NADH has a place in this equation? (in that it increases L-dopa in the body AND the brain), so is possibly unaffected by the mentioned bottleneck. The natural question that follows is: what would you consider the ideal regimen for increasing catecholemine supplements, for anergic depression? (I'm currently on 500 mg. tyrosine, but reduced to 5 mg. NADH, because of growing anxiety and insomnia). Interestingly, these side effects started when I DROPPED phenylalanine (I theorized that tyrosine by itself was having more effect, without phenylalanine).
As another side note, I just restarted Cytomel (T3 thyroid), after reading an article about the interactions of thyroid and catecholemines, hoping I would respond better to cytomel, now that i'm on catecholemine supplements.
Posted by SLS on August 1, 2003, at 12:59:13
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 11:19:50
Hi Andy.
Have you thought about trying l-dopa as the preparation Sinemet (l-dopa + carbidopa)? It would "bypass" the rate-limiting step in the synthesis of catecholamines. None of my doctors ever thought much of the idea.
- Scott
Posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 15:25:19
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by SLS on August 1, 2003, at 12:59:13
No, but I have such trouble tolerating drugs, thus the supplement route. I tried Mirapex, got some dopamine benefit, but the side effects were brutal.
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:42:40
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 11:19:50
> Lar,
> I was so pleased that you responded, since your past postings have shown real expertise on the subject. I'm in a pretty depressive period right now, so my brain isn't working too well. So it will take some time to digest your response, and make an intelligent response.That's kewl.
> In the meantime, do you feel NADH has a place in this equation? (in that it increases L-dopa in the body AND the brain), so is possibly unaffected by the mentioned bottleneck.
NADH is like putting new batteries in a flashlight that had been quite dim. It's the Energizer Bunny for energy production. It happens to directly promote a lot of enzymatic processes, including, apparently, the conversion of tyrosine to L-dopa.
> The natural question that follows is: what would you consider the ideal regimen for increasing catecholemine supplements, for anergic depression? (I'm currently on 500 mg. tyrosine, but reduced to 5 mg. NADH, because of growing anxiety and insomnia).
Are you taking other B-vitamins? You need to make sure you take a B-complex. You'll deplete other B's a faster rate because NADH accelerates the processes that use them up. You may also recall that both Ron Hill and I have noticed that TMG helps "smooth out" the anxiety/irritability arising from NADH.
> Interestingly, these side effects started when I DROPPED phenylalanine (I theorized that tyrosine by itself was having more effect, without phenylalanine).
You are at risk of committing an error in logic, here. If you think about scientific research, everything comes down to statistical significance, which is nothing more than an estimate of the risk of coincidental correlation. Coincidental correlation is the possibility that two things appear to be related, but aren't in fact related at all. They just happened by coincidence. Drawing a conclusion from coincidental correlation is an error in logic known as "post hoc, ergo propter hoc"...literally, "after this, therefore because of this". Just because a particular event follows a specified manipulation does not mean the manipulation caused the event. It could have been a chance happening.
So, you can easily test the relationship by restarting phenylalanine (while keeping the other supplements constant), and see what it does for you/to you. Then stop it again. If your symptoms seem to alternate with that series of manipulations, you've got pretty good evidence for what phenylaline does in your body.
> As another side note, I just restarted Cytomel (T3 thyroid), after reading an article about the interactions of thyroid and catecholemines, hoping I would respond better to cytomel, now that i'm on catecholemine supplements.
I'll look into that.
Lar
Posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 17:10:28
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 1, 2003, at 15:42:40
Lar,
Since my synapse aren’t firing well these days, maybe you can just critique my regimen. The following are taken 40 minutes apart: 5 mg. NADH (on wakeup), later acetyl-L-tyrosine, B6, C; later 500 mg. phenylalanine; later protein bar with B-complex, mineral complex, etc.
Regarding B vitamins, I take a B-complex 2X daily, plus separate B6, B-12, Folic acid.
I had seen your reference to TMG in earlier postings, what is it?
I’ll give phenylalanine another try, based on your comment about “false cause/effect”.
I want to address some specific issues, but just too depressed to put the thoughts together, sorry.
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 1, 2003, at 17:10:28
> Lar,
> Since my synapse aren’t firing well these days, maybe you can just critique my regimen.OK.
> The following are taken 40 minutes apart: 5 mg. NADH (on wakeup), later acetyl-L-tyrosine,
Why the acetylated tyrosine?
>B6, C; later 500 mg. phenylalanine; later protein bar with B-complex, mineral complex, etc.
What's your total zinc and selenium intake?
> Regarding B vitamins, I take a B-complex 2X daily, plus separate B6, B-12, Folic acid.
That covers the B's, fer sure.
> I had seen your reference to TMG in earlier postings, what is it?
Trimethylglycine. It's also known as betaine, because the most common natural source is beets (genus Beta). Don't use betaine hydrochloride. Instead, get TMG, which is also known as freebase betaine, or anhydrous betaine.
Here's one source:
http://www.hilife-vitamins.com/source-naturals-2107800876.html
> I’ll give phenylalanine another try, based on your comment about “false cause/effect”.
It will clear up what it does in your body, which is an important thing to know.
> I want to address some specific issues, but just too depressed to put the thoughts together, sorry.
> Thanks,
> AndyI'll be around. Try writing little notes to yourself when the thoughts arise, and post when you get around to it.
Take care,
Lar
Posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Lar,
To answer your questions:
I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.
Is there an issue in taking tyrosine and phenylalanine not at the same time, so they don’t compete, crossing the blood-brain barrier? What’s your recommendation on when to take them?
Your mineral question: I’m taking 8 mg. zinc, and 50 mcg. Selenium.
I checked out TMG. My concern is that it is converted to SAMe, and in the past, SAM-e triggers hypomanic anxiety (like almost all serotonergic AD’s do to me). Do you think that a smallish dose (maybe 500 mg.) should be taken, to keep homocystine levels down, without risking the full effect of supplemental SAMe?
(The reason I’m so focused on catecholemines is that they give energy without triggering hypomania, whereas serotonergic substances, including SAMe and St. John’s Wart, rarely give energy, but always trigger hypomania.) (Dexedrine has never triggered hypomania, much to my pdocs amazement. It can actually balance out anxiety).
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:02:32
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Mr Larry,
You seem well versed on things....Do you know anything about Selegiline? The products you mention are supposed to enhance the effects.Just curious if you knew about Selegiline?
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 10:44:56
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:02:32
> Mr Larry,
> You seem well versed on things....Do you know anything about Selegiline? The products you mention are supposed to enhance the effects.Just curious if you knew about Selegiline?Selegiline is an irreversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase B, the form of MAO found mostly in the brain. By blocking MAO-B, selegeline will increase the effectiveness of "normal" release of neurotransmitters, by reducing the rate at which they are destroyed. That goes for dopamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, and others.
Selegiline also is believed to selectively inhibit dopamine reuptake, similar to how SSRIs inhibit serotonin reuptake.
Also, two of the metabolites of selegiline are amphetamine and methamphetamin, which have obvious stimulatory activity.
Taking precursors of dopamine (tyrosine or phenylalanine) increases the supply of dopamine. Taking selegiline keeps the supply of dopamine from being destroyed as quickly as it would otherwise be. So, yes, taking dopamine precursors would enhance the effect of selegiline.
Lar
Posted by Rickson Gracie on August 3, 2003, at 10:57:27
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Rickson Gracie, posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 10:44:56
Mr.larry,
Wow,thanks for that answer!! DO you know anyything about chocolate love chemical in selegiline? Phenylethylamine? Are the effects real w/selegiline?
thanks
Posted by andys on August 3, 2003, at 16:15:13
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 2, 2003, at 8:59:04
Lar,
I just wanted to confirm my understanding that there’s no problem taking the tyrosine and phenylalanine together, correct? (I had it in my head that they competed at some level, so should be taken apart, which led to all my questions on the first posting).
Thanks,
Andy
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 3, 2003, at 21:50:59
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine » Larry Hoover, posted by andys on August 3, 2003, at 16:15:13
> Lar,
> I just wanted to confirm my understanding that there’s no problem taking the tyrosine and phenylalanine together, correct? (I had it in my head that they competed at some level, so should be taken apart, which led to all my questions on the first posting).
> Thanks,
> AndyThey'll compete for access to the transporter across the blood-brain barrier, so it does make sense to take them separately, if only for cost-effectiveness.
You'll need somewhat more phenylalanine to produce an equivalent amount of dopamine from a particular dose of tyrosine, as PA has more products arising from it. But that's exactly why I usually advise using the racemic PA, called DLPA. Those other products can have beneficial effects, too.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:31:04
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
> Lar,
> To answer your questions:
> I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.Acetylation certainly changes the activity of e.g. choline, but I hadn't heard of any benefit from acetylation of tyrosine. I'll look into it.
> Is there an issue in taking tyrosine and phenylalanine not at the same time, so they don’t compete, crossing the blood-brain barrier? What’s your recommendation on when to take them?
I think they're largely interchangeable, but there's no point in taking them at the same time.
> Your mineral question: I’m taking 8 mg. zinc, and 50 mcg. Selenium.
You might want to increase both of those by as much as a factor of four.
> I checked out TMG. My concern is that it is converted to SAMe, and in the past, SAM-e triggers hypomanic anxiety (like almost all serotonergic AD’s do to me). Do you think that a smallish dose (maybe 500 mg.) should be taken, to keep homocystine levels down, without risking the full effect of supplemental SAMe?
You'll know if you're over-stimulated by TMG, but the dose at which that occurs is very different for different people. You have to try it, and pay attention to what happens.
When you take exogenous SAMe (i.e. from outside the body), you bypass all your body's regulatory processes. You can easily exceed the normal physiological concentration of SAMe this way, and SAMe may be found in places where it isn't normally present. If you promote the formation of endogenous SAMe (i.e. from inside the body), your natural control systems are still in place, making sure there isn't going to be too much SAMe formed, and it's in highest concentration where it's supposed to be.
> (The reason I’m so focused on catecholemines is that they give energy without triggering hypomania, whereas serotonergic substances, including SAMe and St. John’s Wart, rarely give energy, but always trigger hypomania.) (Dexedrine has never triggered hypomania, much to my pdocs amazement. It can actually balance out anxiety).
> Thanks,
> AndySounds a bit like the ADHD paradox. And, it's an excellent example of the need to try things to see what they do. Even your pdoc wouldn't have predicted your response to dexedrine, right?
Ame sans vie posted a link to an e-book that has some information you may find useful. The dose recommendations are conservative, in my humble opinion, but I would interpret that to be because the author is not ill. He's not treating an adverse situation. He's otherwise well.
There's a decent discussion of methyl donors (e.g. TMG), and a chapter on energy boosters.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
In reply to Re: stimulants: tyrosine, phenylalanine, dexedrine, posted by andys on August 2, 2003, at 17:33:35
> Lar,
> To answer your questions:
> I take the acetylated tyrosine, because it’s supposed to be more bioavailable.Sorry, dude, but acetylated tyrosine is a non-starter. Acetylation does only one thing.....it enhances renal clearance of tyrosine. There is no evidence that any free tyrosine arises from the N-acetyl tyrosine.
In the following abstract, note that control subjects did not differ from the liver failure group on renal clearance of N-acetyl tyrosine, and neither group showed an increase in blood concentrations of tyrosine on the latter, either.
Hepatology. 1995 Apr;21(4):923-8.
Utilization of tyrosine-containing dipeptides and N-acetyl-tyrosine in hepatic failure.Druml W, Hubl W, Roth E, Lochs H.
Department of Medicine III, Vienna General Hospital, Austria.
The impact of hepatic dysfunction on the elimination and hydrolysis of three potential tyrosine sources for total parenteral nutrition, the dipeptides L-alanyl-L-tyrosine (Ala-Tyr) and glycyl-L-tyrosine (Gly-Tyr), and N-acetyl-L-tyrosine (Nac-Tyr) were evaluated in six patients with hepatic failure (five chronic, one acute) and seven healthy subjects. In controls, whole-body clearance (Cltot) of Ala-Tyr was higher than of Gly-Tyr (3,169 +/- 214 vs. 1,780 +/- 199 mL/kg/min, P < .01), and both exceeded clearance of Nac-Tyr (309 +/- 29 mL/kg/min, P > .01). Both dipeptides were hydrolyzed and released tyrosine immediately. In hepatic failure, elimination and hydrolysis of Ala-Tyr and Gly-Tyr were comparable to controls, but Cltot of Nac-Tyr was reduced (236 +/- 26 mL/kg/min). Neither in controls nor in patients an increase in plasma tyrosine concentration was seen after Nac-Tyr, and the major part of Nac-Tyr infused was lost in urine. The Cltot of tyrosine as evaluated after Ala-Tyr infusion (with the immediate release of tyrosine) was severely reduced in hepatic failure (152.7 +/- 38.4 vs. 484.4 +/- 41.4 mL/kg/min, P < .001) and half-life (kle) was retarded from 14.4 +/- 1.4 to 90.2 +/- 32.2 minutes (P < .03). The authors conclude that acute and chronic hepatic dysfunction does not affect elimination and hydrolysis of the dipeptides Ala-Tyr and Gly-Tyr and the constituent amino acids are released immediately. Nac-Tyr elimination was not grossly affected by hepatic failure, but neither in healthy subjects nor in hepatic failure patients was an increase of tyrosine seen. Both dipeptides but not Nac-Tyr may serve as a tyrosine source in parenteral nutrition. Moreover, by its rapid hydrolysis, the use of Ala-Tyr, for the first time, enables a simple rapid nonisotope evaluation of tyrosine kinetics for assessment of liver function.
Posted by Capri on August 5, 2003, at 22:27:58
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
Hi Larry,
Since all these questions are being asked about supplments I thought I shoot away.
I read that tyrosine is good for anxiety. I am trying to experiment with some natural remedies.What are your thoughts on tyrosine? How much do you need to take? Any other natural supplements you could recommend.
Thanks!
Capri
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 1:11:40
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
From reading Mind Boosters, if dopamine and norepinephrine are what you need, then these would appear to be the supplements to take:
1) L-phenylalanine
2) Vitamin B3 *or* NADH
3) Vitamin C
4) Vitamin B6 *or* PLP (pyridoxal phosphate)Three Beer Effect posted a while back that L-PEA crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily than tyrosine. D-PEA doesn't seem to be doing anything here. NADH and PLP are active co-enzymes of Vitamns B3 and B6 repsectively.
Links:
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_13.html
(check out Figure 13.1)
http://www.mind-boosters.com/chapter_9.html
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:42:34
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by Capri on August 5, 2003, at 22:27:58
> Hi Larry,
>
> Since all these questions are being asked about supplments I thought I shoot away.I love questions.
> I read that tyrosine is good for anxiety. I am trying to experiment with some natural remedies.
Hmmm. Tyrosine may possibly make anxiety worse, too. Neurotransmitters can have contradictory effects because they do different things in different parts of the brain. If you consider the treatment of hyperactivity (ADHD) with stimulants, there *seems* to be a paradox, but obviously the brain is doing its thing. It's our thinking about the brain that is paradoxical.
> What are your thoughts on tyrosine? How much do you need to take? Any other natural supplements you could recommend.
I prefer DLPA (d-,l-phenylalanine) over tyrosine, because there are other products arising from the phenylalanine that may have calming and mood-elevating effects.
A reasonable dose of either would be in the range of 1-2 grams, on an empty stomach, preferably in the morning (because of possible stimulation). Some might argue that dose range is high, but you want to take enough to be clear about how you respond to it. Once you have that understanding, you can adjust the dose up or down.
For anxiety in general, I think niacinamide is very useful. It makes the GABA receptor more responsive to calming neurotranmission. You can take 500 mg four times a day.
> Thanks!
> CapriLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
In reply to The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP, posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 1:11:40
> From reading Mind Boosters, if dopamine and norepinephrine are what you need, then these would appear to be the supplements to take:
>
> 1) L-phenylalanine
> 2) Vitamin B3 *or* NADH
> 3) Vitamin C
> 4) Vitamin B6 *or* PLP (pyridoxal phosphate)
>
> Three Beer Effect posted a while back that L-PEA crosses the blood-brain barrier more easily than tyrosine. D-PEA doesn't seem to be doing anything here. NADH and PLP are active co-enzymes of Vitamns B3 and B6 repsectively.I hope I don't sound picky, but PEA is short for phenethylamine, rather than phenylalanine. The latter is usually PA, or Ph.
D-PA does not go on to form tyrosine, but because of that, it is totally available for conversion to PEA. This also has the effect of increasing the proportion of L-PA converting to tyrosine, due to competition for the alternate pathway.
Recent research has also shown that D-PA blocks the breakdown of enkephalins, substances which are our body's natural ligands for what we call opiate receptors (in other words, they're really enkephalin receptors, but they were "discovered" because of our use of opiates).
I think DLPA has more "bang for the buck" than tyrosine.
Lar
Posted by Capri on August 6, 2003, at 8:05:34
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Capri, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:42:34
Hi Lar,
Thanks for all that helpful info!
Can I Take these supplements with Klonopin??
Capri
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 9:02:47
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by Capri on August 6, 2003, at 8:05:34
> Hi Lar,
>
> Thanks for all that helpful info!You're very welcome.
> Can I Take these supplements with Klonopin??
Absolutely. Although I should probably at some point suggest that we're all so unique that anything is possible, the likelihood of an adverse interaction is very, very, small.
> Capri
All the best,
Lar
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 11:49:32
In reply to Re: The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
Thanks for straightening out the PA vs. PEA issue.
Do you have a references concerning the uses the body has for D-PA?
Posted by DSCH on August 6, 2003, at 12:02:50
In reply to Re: The Fantastic Four? L-PEA, NADH, C, and PLP » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on August 6, 2003, at 7:51:09
When in doubt, Google it.
http://www.endotoxin.gmxhome.de/
Figure 5 is the key one here.
"The symptoms of parkinsonism are treated with the racemate DL-phenylalanine. L-phenylalanine increases the concentration of dopamine in the brain and D-phenylalanine the concentration of ß-phenylethylamine so that this treatment restores the balance between the phenethylamine-dopamine and the acetylcholine-serotonine-tryptamine side. DL-phenylalanine has no side effects like L-dopa and it is not toxic for the dopaminergic neurons."
"D-phenylalanine showed a therapeutic activity in PD, especially against rigiditiy, walking disability, speech difficulties and psychic depression, whereas its effect on tremor was not important. A combination of the amino acid with anticholinergic agents should be tried."
Posted by tealady on August 18, 2003, at 19:39:12
In reply to Re: N-acetyl tyrosine » andys, posted by Larry Hoover on August 4, 2003, at 7:47:20
Hi Larry,
Being probably the newest addition to your fan club<g>...yep, I am amazed at your knowledge level too.
Wondering about acetylation..
Does one get an acetylated form of (x) by mixing vinegar with (x)?
I find your posts very interesting , especially now I have just added tyrosine into my mix of thyroid meds, vitamins and minerals.I have a long history..mostly chronic fatigue and really cold hands,feet. Also always craved meat. I could eat a steak 3 meals a day. Also high thirst (perhaps due to the high protein).
Tried hypoglycemic diets(after a GTT test, 1985, with normal fasting blood sugar, reactive hypoglycemia dropping to borderline absolute levels) no effect.
Also tried 5 years of various SSRI's(1995-2000) no good effect, some scary side effects...like hand tremour, eye tics, altered perception of traffic speed...I started on long history of thyroid meds Aug01 ...some improvements, some worsening of symptoms.
I came across a "post"< http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=36074.1 >by someone who had added in phenteramine to their thyroid med mix hoping the dopamine would provide a missing bit of the picture. I thought of tyrosine..and that it too has a dopamine pathway..so I am trialling that.I am “starving” about 1/2 hour after I take say 7.5mcg of T3(slow release)..so I thought the dopamine in the tyrosine may block this “starvation” the T3 causes. Thyroid extract(contains T4 +T3 +) also causes an increase in hunger but not quite as pronounced..
I thought it looked like I was adding in only a bit of the picture and not the other bits..so I started adding in tyrosine to the mix to try to get some of the missing pathways..perhaps the dopamine to help with temperature and appetite suppression...and perhaps I needed to replace mor than the thyroid pathways if something was missing higher up in the chain.
The tyrosine appeared to help with the appetite and for the first 2 days just 500mg of tyrosine bought my body temp up about 1.2C to almost 37degrees..all day, although a sweat session around 4am in the morning managed to lower the temp again...both days.(stopped by adding in a tad of estradiol gel transdermally)
This temp rise only lasted for the first 2 days..on the 3rd, 4th day, it no longer seems to be working..darn
I will keep trying. I'm thinking I must have something wrong/missing I the way I break down protein or my body wouldn't have craved it so much all my life..so I need to find out where..hopefully by working backwards and replace the missing bits...right.
That is why I would favour trying tyrosine over phenylanaine for starters, less enzymes, links etc to go thru. If all the tyrsoine bits work, I guess then go back to the phenylanaine looking for more missing pieces..
I do have antiTPO, anti TG antibodies, a small thyroidwith nodules on ultrasound..which shows it has been struggling to keep up in my books..and when I was born my Mum had to give me antihistamines so I could breathe while sucking (little blue pills..phernergan I think)..so I do have something up with histamine response I guess tooI'm really struggling with all of this altrhough I have spent the past 2 1/2 years trying to research the net, like you said..a lot of stuff is pretty geekish and although I have figured out that "ase" on the end means enzyme, that's about it! I really need some courses, but I haven't found any so far to take me thru basic chemistry, biochem, physiol up to this level, lol.
Thaks for reading this,I know most detail has n been left out, ANY suggestions welcomed
Jan
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