![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 15 to 39 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by jay on July 29, 2003, at 2:37:34
In reply to Re: My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by ross co on July 28, 2003, at 21:37:12
> let him do what he wants. he's in denial just like i used to be. and i am perfectly happy taking my meds. and i take nardil and i eat anything i want. spend your money on that black market stuff. because one day you will have to come off and you will see how bad it really is.
> good luck though sticking a needle in your ass to be big
Well, he is doing what he feels best and we don't have any right taking that away from him. No need to insult. If I had to take steroids or even something like heroin daily to keep my depression at bay, I likely would.Jay
Posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 4:06:49
In reply to some links...., posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 0:28:36
>
>
> http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9543205&dopt=Abstract
> http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.html
>
> http://www.andriol.com/home.asp
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/57/66195.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
>
> http://www.drmirkin.com/archive/7045.html
>
> http://www.drmirkin.com/men/1732.html
>
> http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2002-08-15/nelson.html/1/index.html
>
> http://www.slimmeryou.org/older/abstract_testosterone.htm
>
> http://www.mycremeltd.com/Info_Center/fsd.asp
>
>
Posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
> Hello,
> I want to make a case for testosterone in combating
> depression,panic and dp/dr symptoms.
>
> My age:30
> Diagnosis:panic disorder/depression/social phobia
> Meds:
> Zoloft
> klonopin
> remeron
>
> Steroids most recently used:
> 600 mgs weekly test cypionate
> 500 mgs weekly deca-durabolin
> 50 mgs daily Proviron-- snip --
>
> If there are any questions anyone has feel free to ask.......
>John Henry, I am very interested in what you write. I am 47, live in the UK and I am not a body builder. In fact I am pleased enough with my musculature and do only light exercise. My sex drive is "middling" to low.
I have low normal testosterone and my mood is generally low (dysthymic). I started on testosterone specifically for MOOD. Not for muscles. Not for sex.
I saw an endocrinologist to try and get me sorted out. All the testosterone he has given me has been official. Testosterone definitely helped my mood. Only testosterone and an MAOI, Moclobemide, will help me out of my low mood and apathy. But I have a problem to keep taking testosterone.
I have a question for you. But first let me describe a bit for you and for anyone else who is interested what my testosterone background is.
My endocrinologist thinks there are two unusual factors at play in me. FIRSTLY I vary in testosterone levels more than average throughout the day. The highest levels are in the morning (I am low-normal at that time) and he suggests that by late afternoon I am lower than most men. SECONDLY I convert excess testosterone to estrogen very easily. So any supplementary testosterone turns into estrogen and we can blocking this conversion with Arimidex and/or Tamoxifen.
We also check for SHBG in case there is too much of it mopping up the testosterone but SHBG levels are normal.
The actual cause of my low testosterone is partly linked to the excess estrogen because the estrogen is causing my body to think I have enough testosterone and so my body does not call for more. In endocrinological terms my LH and FSH levels are low indicating that my body does not want more testosterone to be produced.
I have taken testosterone by patches (bad allergic reaction), by injection (Primoteston = testosterone enanthate) and by implant (probably still not available in the US). All delivery systems are "messy" and inconvenient. The best was probably the implant but it involves a deep deposit of material every six months and the sutures need time to heal.
I saw my endocrinologist a few weeks ago and was hoping that Arimidex (probably without the Tamoxifen) would be enough to prevent the natural levels of my testosterone converting to estrogen. i can probably get to about the 60th percentile of the normal reference range (i.i.e.. just a bit below average).
However he suggested we try either Nandrolone (Deca-Durobolin) or testosterone gel. I went for the gel because the Nandrolone involved injections and I find them a bit awkward - and the testosterone peaks and then drops too much with injections.
Here are my questions.
(1) Do you think the Nandrolone would have been a good option for me? My endocrinologist said it was a good form of testosterone because it didn't convert easily.
(2) Dose Nandrolone have any more medical problems with it than testosterone does?
(3) How frequently would one have to take Nandrolone?
Remember that I am only interested in mood improvement. I am not interested in bigger muscles. The extra sex drive would be nice but that is not my motive.
I would welcome any comments from you or anyone else who can advise. Please feel free to contact me via email if you prefer. My email link to this message works or use this: davidmaclean AT usa-net DOT fsnet DOT co DOT uk.
Thanks.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 13:54:52
In reply to My case for Testostorone(long)...., posted by john Henry on July 28, 2003, at 6:06:13
> -In no way do I condone the methods have used.
>
>
I would have done it differently than you did, I would have first gone to an MD and had my T levels formally tested. I would have done it on the up and up. However I dont really blame you for taking anabolic steroids for purposes of mood elevation. I think for any man with severe refractory depression who is 30 and over (especially 35 and over) and nothing else has worked and they have tested positive for low testosterone...testosterone can be a viable route out of severe depression.In addition to mood elevation and overall feelings of well being, testosterone supplementation can dramatically improve male sexuality. After a guy has been severely depressed for umpteen many years with no real sex drive, the sudden ability to get a massive erection like in my youth and engage in vigorous sex...is a welcome relief and is the "frosting on the cake" as far as depression relief goes.
I just would go about it differently than this guy did it. Id do it all legal, on the up and up working with Medical Doctors. Either endocrinologists or that rare breed known as a neuroendocrinologist (hard to find).
The side effects of testosterone supplementation for a man over 30 who has low to low normal T levels is negligible. The cancer thing is hysteria.
Before depression my erections were a good solid eight inches. After severe depression my ability to get and maintain a solid erection deteriorated. And with that my ability to maintain intimate relations with the opposite sex deteriorated. I bet with T supplementation, things would return to normal and Id have those big eight inchers again. <evil grin> hehehehe
Igor.
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:05:24
In reply to Re: My Testostorone and some questions, posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
>
>>>>I would like to state I am no doctor and any advice I give should be taken as such.I do thing off the book and I am sort of a militant.
John Henry, I am very interested in what you write. I am 47, live in the UK and I am not a body builder. In fact I am pleased enough with my musculature and do only light exercise. My sex drive is "middling" to low.
I have low normal testosterone and my mood is generally low (dysthymic). I started on testosterone specifically for MOOD. Not for muscles. Not for sex.>>>>I started on Testosterone not for muscle building effects either but on research to get libido back from SSRI and it's mood enhancing abilities.I discovered at the same time it cured my anxiety/panic attacks.
I saw an endocrinologist to try and get me sorted out. All the testosterone he has given me has been official. Testosterone definitely helped my mood. Only testosterone and an MAOI, Moclobemide, will help me out of my low mood and apathy. But I have a problem to keep taking testosterone.>>>>I am using Ritalin now to treat SSRI apathy and low mood.I'm giving up on SSRI'S.
I have a question for you. But first let me describe a bit for you and for anyone else who is interested what my testosterone background is.
My endocrinologist thinks there are two unusual factors at play in me. FIRSTLY I vary in testosterone levels more than average throughout the day. The highest levels are in the morning (I am low-normal at that time) and he suggests that by late afternoon I am lower than most men. SECONDLY I convert excess testosterone to estrogen very easily. So any supplementary testosterone turns into estrogen and we can blocking this conversion with Arimidex and/or Tamoxifen.>>>>For people who don't know.Tamoxifen(nolvadex) is an anti-estrogen that binds to estrogen sites.It blocks estrogen at the receprtor site.
Arimidex is an Aromatase inhibitor which prevents testosterone from being converted into estrogen.
Generally arimidex is better than Nolvadex because it actually stops estrogen while Nolvadex only blocks at receptor site.Femara which is new was shown to be 10x more potent than arimidex in vitro.I will post a link of the study so you can check it out.Something to consider???
We also check for SHBG in case there is too much of it mopping up the testosterone but SHBG levels are normal.>>>>SHBG is Sex Hormone binding globulin.It is a carrier protein for androgens.In normal men it goes like this:
2% Testosterone is free(unbound to carrier proteins)
54% is bound to Albumin and other proteins
44% is bound to SHBG(synthesized by the liver)>>>Usually athletes like to get rid of SHBG to have more free tesosterone.
The actual cause of my low testosterone is partly linked to the excess estrogen because the estrogen is causing my body to think I have enough testosterone and so my body does not call for more.In endocrinological terms my LH and FSH levels are low indicating that my body does not want more testosterone to be produced.>>>>LH is luteining hormone which stimulates leydig's cells of the testicles to produce testosterone.FSH is follicle stimulating hormone which stimulates follicles and is also critical for sperm count.
I have taken testosterone by patches (bad allergic reaction), by injection (Primoteston = testosterone enanthate) and by implant (probably still not available in the US). All delivery systems are "messy" and inconvenient. The best was probably the implant but it involves a deep deposit of material every six months and the sutures need time to heal.
>>>>>I had no problems with injections whatsoever.
Have you tried Omnadren,Sustanon or Testex Elmu(test cypionate) I have heard good reports with these
I saw my endocrinologist a few weeks ago and was hoping that Arimidex (probably without the Tamoxifen) would be enough to prevent the natural levels of my testosterone converting to estrogen. i can probably get to about the 60th percentile of the normal reference range (i.i.e.. just a bit below average).>>>>Have you tried adding clomid(clomiphene citrate)? It is used at the end of a cycle to bring natural test levels back to normal.It is a synthetic estrogen that acts as a anti-estrogen.It binds to estrogen receptors and it will cause your LH and FSH to rise as a result it might bring your levels to normal.Have you tried HCG-Human chorionic gonadtropin-? This is used to trick your body into thinking it's getting LH.Also look into Femara.
However he suggested we try either Nandrolone (Deca-Durobolin) or testosterone gel. I went for the gel because the Nandrolone involved injections and I find them a bit awkward - and the testosterone peaks and then drops too much with injections.>>>>Here is my take on nandrolone....
It is a mild steroid that is a modified version of 19-nortestosterone.The Deca is a long chain ester which means it lasts in your body a long time to keep steady levels.It is the least androgenic steroid in nature of most steroids,often to the point it interferes with libido.It has high anabolic properties.Anabolic=increases protein synthesis in muscles.Androgenic=Maleness i.e.libido,aggresion,male pattern baldness. Most people use DEca for its muscle building properties.Although it does aromatize it does so at a slow rate.In fact its probably the least estrogenic of all steroids capable of aromatizing.One trait(downfall) is that is strongly supresses HPTA or hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis.HPTA is responsible for regulating the output of testosterone in your body.At the top of the axis is the hypothalamic region of your brain,which releases a hormone called gonadotrophin releasing hormone or GNRH.Gnrh stimulates the pituitary to release LH-luteining hormone and FSH.Both hormones but primarily LH stimulate the leydig's cells in the testicles to secrete Testosterone.The primary hormone involved in supressing the over secretion of test is Estradiol,which is the aromatized by product of Test.High Estrogen Levels serve as a signal to the hypothalamus to slow the release of GNRH and also desensitize the pituitary to this hormone that trickles down to the testes receiving less stimulation via LH.In additions,Androgens and Progestins can also cause supresion of LH and test output via the same target sites.Nandrolone can suppress endogenous(natural) test production through a different mechanism,one that exists outside the normal suppression of gonadotropic hormones.
There was a study in the Netherlands done on 11 males given Deca over 12 weeks.The total dosage was only 450 mgs.this was sufficent enough to suppress test production throughout the course of therapy.In fact,their test remained below pre-treated levels 3 months after the last injection after the study was concluded.So you can only guess how long ful HPTA recovery actually took.In this study Nandrolone Decanonate strongly supressed test production but no impact on serum LH.Supprresion was not caused at the top of the axis,with a lowering LH,as would have been expected.There is also one trait uncommon among steroids(only Trenbolone and Anadrol) in that it exhibits measurable progesterone activity.It converts to progesterone at doses above 400 mgs.This maybe why deca has it's effect on HPTA and libido.
Wow,Im rambling basically in basic terms use of Deca is usually used by athletes to promote muscle.It is usually stacked with a Testosterone ester to combat libido problems AKA Deca-dick.And since it suppresses HPTA your testicles will shrink really bad.One other reason athletes use this is because they notice a joint soothing effect.Deca stores water in connective tissues and blocks cortisone receptors,this in turn leaves a person with a temporary ease or even cure existing joint pain.It isnt very toxic at all.One interesting note...At UCLA they did a study on rats and found Deca alters brain chemistry leading to increased norepinephrine and serotonin levels.
Damn that was long winded lol!!!
Here are my questions.
(1) Do you think the Nandrolone would have been a good option for me? My endocrinologist said it was a good form of testosterone because it didn't convert easily.>>>>I dont think so since its highly Anabolic and shuts down HPTA and can convert to progesterone.
(2) Dose Nandrolone have any more medical problems with it than testosterone does?
It has hardly any side effects,its not liver toxic,and most users only complain of "bloating"
due to progesterone
(3) How frequently would one have to take Nandrolone?>>>> Since I am militant I dont know of clinical uses.Doses start at 200-600 mgs.a week.
Remember that I am only interested in mood improvement. I am not interested in bigger muscles. The extra sex drive would be nice but that is not my motive.
I would welcome any comments from you or anyone else who can advise. Please feel free to contact me via email if y
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:09:26
In reply to Re: My Testostorone and some questions, posted by don_bristol on July 29, 2003, at 9:39:04
http://dominoext.novartis.com/NC/NCPRRE01.nsf/0/6ce93adcfcc89adec1256bc0001e60ae?OpenDocument
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 6:20:27
In reply to forgot one...., posted by john Henry on July 29, 2003, at 4:06:49
These 3 show that even at higher doses there is hardly any change after test usage.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/283/6/763
http://www.the-aps.org/press/archives/01/32.htm
> >
> >
> > http://www.mhsanctuary.com/rx/testos.htm
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=9543205&dopt=Abstract
> > http://www.duj.com/Article/Hellstrom2/Hellstrom2.html
> >
>
> http://www.oxandrin.com
>
>
> > http://www.andriol.com/home.asp
> >
> > http://my.webmd.com/content/article/57/66195.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
> >
> > http://www.drmirkin.com/archive/7045.html
> >
> > http://www.drmirkin.com/men/1732.html
> >
> > http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/issues/2002-08-15/nelson.html/1/index.html
> >
> > http://www.slimmeryou.org/older/abstract_testosterone.htm
> >
> > http://www.mycremeltd.com/Info_Center/fsd.asp
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 10:42:31
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 29, 2003, at 13:54:52
The cancer thing is hysteria.
That is kinda a broad statement. All reproductive
cancers are related to endrogens, period.
Supplementation and testing to return levels to
normal is safe. Taking pills from the gym is not, as you have no idea what levels you are producing.
Bulking up vs. returning levels to normal have vastly different risks.
Posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 13:54:11
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 10:42:31
> The cancer thing is hysteria.
>
> That is kinda a broad statement. All reproductive
> cancers are related to endrogens, period.
> Supplementation and testing to return levels to
> normal is safe. Taking pills from the gym is not, as you have no idea what levels you are producing.
> Bulking up vs. returning levels to normal have vastly different risks.StJames...when I said the cancer thing is hysteria I was assuming we were talking about taking T under the strict and monitored supervision of a Medical Doctor. For purposes of getting rid of refractory depression and returning to normal. Under these conditions (medically prescribed and monitored) testosterone is relatively safe and the benefits outweight the risks in many cases.
As far as taking roids illegally, buying them from some gym rat and taking them in levels where they are unsupervised, I totally agree with you. Its dangerous to do it like that and cancer is one of the dangers.
Only a MD can prescribe testosterone safely. This guy has found his "magic bullet" but IMO he should have done it legit style versus the illegal gym rat approach he has taken.
Igor
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 13:54:11
This guy has found his "magic bullet"
Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
proven by this, in the context of treating
depression, because it is a given that anyone
will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
up until people went psychotic.I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?
Posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 16:42:16
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
> This guy has found his "magic bullet"
>
> Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
> proven by this, in the context of treating
> depression, because it is a given that anyone
> will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
> Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
> up until people went psychotic.StJames, first a little lesson in the broad subject of steroids. Cortisone is in a specific class of steroids known as corticosteroids. Other corticosteroids include cortisol and prednisone. Prednisone is well known for inducing the nastiest of mood disorders in previously healthy individuals. In sufficient doses prednisone and other corticosteroids can cause psychosis or mania. Corticosteroids are known in the bodybuilding world as "catabolic" or muscle wasting...in short they tear you down when they fluctuate in excess in the body. Corticosteroids are nasty stuff as a general rule and have bad psychiatric side effects sometimes.
The type of steroid this guy is talking about is in a totally different class of steroids. Known as anabolic steroids. Anabolics include testosterone and others like dianabol, etc. and are known to do the exact opposite of the corticosteroids. While corticosteroids often cause severe mood disorders, anabolic steroids oftentimes create a feeling of "well being" along with increased sex drive.
Anabolic steroids, being in a totally different class of steroids as cortisol or cortisone, are being studied seriously for refractory depression in men.
>
> I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
> issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
> a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?
>I agree, black market steroids are bad news. But the legal anabolics supervised by an MD can be truly lifesaving in some cases of male depression. You shouldnt generalize testosterone with cortisone or prednisone...its apples and oranges.
Igor
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 16:51:37
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 16:42:16
> StJames, first a little lesson in the broad subject of steroids.
With all due respect, I was talking about the
use of cortisol steroids in the 40's. I know my steroids, thanks. I understand the difference
between them and was not confusing them.You seem not to understand my posts, please consider that first.
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 16:54:56
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by Psychquackery on July 30, 2003, at 16:42:16
depression. You shouldnt generalize testosterone with cortisone or prednisone...its apples and oranges.
>
> IgorAgain, you are not getting my posts. My point was, and it was clear, that that which makes you feel better does not mean it is a sucessful treatment nor is it really treating the cause.
Please read my posts more carefully, and ask before you assume.
Posted by OWHolmes on July 30, 2003, at 17:31:44
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 16:54:56
> My point was, and it was clear, that that which makes you feel better does not mean it is a sucessful treatment nor is it really treating the cause.
It is a fine point. Give a depressed person ecstasy and they probably would feel good for the couple of hours it would last. When it wore off, they would probably be worse, and continuous 24 hour use would not be good. There is a difference between a euphoria effect and an antidepressant effect. I suspect that the original poster's experience with illegal steroids is in the former category, rather than the latter. In the end, the steroids will probably cause a crash, big time.
As for the comment that steroids not treating the "cause" of depression, if only we knew the cause of depression, imagine the treatments that would be available. . . . .
Justice Holmes
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 20:02:14
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by OWHolmes on July 30, 2003, at 17:31:44
My point was, and it was clear, that that which makes you feel better does not mean it is a sucessful treatment nor is it really treating the cause.
It is a fine point. Give a depressed person ecstasy and they probably would feel good for the couple of hours it would last. When it wore off, they would probably be worse, and continuous 24 hour use would not be good. There is a difference between a euphoria effect and an antidepressant effect. I suspect that the original poster's experience with illegal steroids is in the former category, rather than the latter. In the end, the steroids will probably cause a crash, big time.>>>>Anabolic/androgenic steroids do not give you a high and then Euphoria.If you are well versed in usage you can prevent a crash by using
1- Clomid,which mimics the effects of GRH(Gonadotropin releasing hormone) Which stimulate the pituitary gland to produce LH(Luteining hormone) and FSH(follicle stimulating hormone) Which stimulates leydigs cells of the testicles to produce Testosterone.The role of clomid is to awaken the pituitary gland that has been suppressed from test usuage.
2-HCG(human chorionic gonadtropin)-when this is taken it tricks your system into thinking theyre getting LH.
The use of these 2 will help kickstart your system to get your testicles back to normal and get your endogenous(natural) Testosterone back to normal.You also wean yourself off by lowering dosages each week to get your body ready.So if you are smart you will never"crash"
>>>It blows my mind they are a schedule 3 drug(schdeule 2 in New York) Benzo's which have a high abuse potential are schedule 4.This is crazy.What is the difference if someone wants to get breast implants or bypass gastric surgery to change their apperance and using AAS to improve their outward apperance? AAS work on the CNS and promote neurotransmitter activity in the brain.The same as all psycho-active medication.It has been proven to be safe in teating depression and is used alot on hiv/aids patients.f they were so deadly why would this be? If you use a moderate dose and monitor yourself I don't see the difference betwen me using Testosterone to someone using Depakote/Remeron/SSRI'S etc.
As for the comment that steroids not treating the "cause" of depression, if only we knew the cause of depression, imagine the treatments that would be available. . . . .>>>>The cause of depression will never be solved by a pill.Take care
Justice Holmes
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 21:04:23
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 16:54:56
> depression. You shouldnt generalize testosterone with cortisone or prednisone...its apples and oranges.
> >
> > Igor
Again, you are not getting my posts. My point was, and it was clear, that that which makes you feel better does not mean it is a sucessful treatment nor is it really treating the cause.>>>>Androgenic/anabolic steroids are not recreational drugs.They produce no "high" or"low" unlike benzo's,mood stabilizers,anti-psychotics or ritalin and Dexedrine etc.
>>>>Why can't you understand it is a proven fact
men with low levels of testosterone are more depressed,angry and not-well.By enhancing their tesosterone levels they have feelings of well being,vigor and a new found "youth" and research shows them to be calmer.So wouldn't you say that the feeling better = using testosterone is in part due to treating the cause=low levels of endogenous Testosterone?>>>>Also how do benzodiazepines treat the cause?
How do SSRI'S help when there is a withdrawl syndrome? So how would this = a successful treatment?
Please read my posts more carefully, and ask before you assume.
>>>>Please learn more about ratios of androgenic/anabolic steroids,provide long term data to support your stance,know about all steroids such as estrogen,cortisol,pregnenolone,dhea and aldosterone and Testosterone which are the only ones to produce anabolism,LH,Fsh,leydig's cells,HPTA,DHT,5 alpha reductase enzyme,Aromatase,GRN,SHBG,Glucocorticoid,estradiol,progesterone,prolactin,how testosterone effects the CNS and neurotransmitters,Did you know Dianabol produces Dopamine? Do you know the the molecule's and esters? How about the 6 known androgen receptor cellular protein co-activators,Growth hormone,igf-1,Do you know how many paths testosterone can take? What about the 17-alpha alkylated steroids(17-aa)? The difference between human and veterinary steroids? Why is Oxandrin,an anabolic steroid given to HIV/AIDS patients? Which ones bind to the AR receptor more than others? Do you know what year they became a schedule 3(schedule 2 in New York) class on the DEA's list? Look at one of my links,which I doubt you have,but look at the study where they,61 males ages 18-35, were given 600 mgs/week of Testosterone for 20 weeks but monitered for 40 weeks.After the study there was no change in PSA(prostate-specific antigen),Liver enzymes or cognitive functioning,the only negative trait was a slight HDL reduction.Wheres all the cancer and heart atacks?Another group of 30 HIV men were given 600mgs/week of Nandrolone for 16 weeks.No problems occured on all tests.There was actually a rise in LDL.The only negative trait was a slight reduction of HDL.
Wheres the cancer? Wheres the heart attacks?
Also some researchers at Harvard and St.John's estimate that more than 50% of HIV-positive people ned hormone replacement therapy to support overall health? How could this be when you claim "roids" are so dangerous?So before you assume anything you know about Androgenic/anabolic steroids(which is probably from the media) don't make statements that you cant back up....
Posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 22:14:37
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
This guy has found his "magic bullet"
Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
proven by this, in the context of treating
depression, because it is a given that anyone
will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
up until people went psychotic.>>>>St.James,you really have no foundation for your statements.Why do you think someone will be pumped up on Androgens? How did you speculate on this? Do you know if I took a shot of Sustanon,it has 4 different esters in it? I wouldnt feel anything for about 3-4 weeks,and there is no pump.I am talking about depression fading,feelings of well-being and a very,very strong sex drive.
>>>>There are an estimated 17 million users of Anabolic/androgenic steroids.If you did real world experiments you would find exactly what I am talking about.This isn't like prednisone and there arent guys walking around saying...Im going to....PUMP YOU UP!!!
I will speak of athletes and body builders that I know of...
1-There is no roid-rage...none.You will get more agitated taking SSRI'S,stimulants or even Wellbutrin.Trust me.
2-They are very goal oriented,they are always striving to be the best they can be.Constantly setting new goals is the basis of life.
3-They are very confident.Since they practice and practice and preform they dimish social phobia.
4-Motivation.They have a reason to live and be in the now.To hone their craft.
5-The ability to deal w/anxiety and stress.In a competitive field stress is guaranteed.They constantly fight negative self-talk,counter it and preform.
6-They develop a winning attitude this in turn leads to greter self esteem.
7-Ability to manage distractions and relax.They use visulization techniques,meditation,bio-feedback,PMR,autogenic training etc.,NLP etc.
8-They never give up.They develop positive attributes like passion,desire,discipline etc.By now you are probably saying "what the hell is this guy rambling about?"
Well,people who use steroids arent what's portrayed in the media.And all of these qualities above...play a big role in what cures depression and anxiety not just pills.When everyone first hears the word steroid they think-big,bodybuilder filled with rage...thats a joke.Steroids are medications just like any other.Some People need them to feel better and function better.The public and physicians wont touch the topic of steroids.They think its all sports related but its not,it has medicinal purposes.
I'm glad researchers are finally understanding this and hopefully some break throughs might occur.For a lot of men,andropause is a real thing.I'm glad treatment and reasearches are starting to become available.Most recently at UCLA,they found Nandrolone increases serotonin and norepinephrine in rats.
I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?>>>>>SSRI's kill libido,no question.That's the
main reason I tried Test.
To me libido is Testosterone.You will never cure SSRI's sexual problems with viagra,taking a drug holiday,adding high doses of remeron or wellbutrin or the other many so called anti-dotes.None of them work.I believe in my case(in my own opinion,not scientifical research) there is a link with Zoloft and estrogen or prolactin or some kind of testosterone lowering effect going on.It will only be cured by...
1-Getting off the drug or
2-Adding testosteroneBTW,I had to go to the black market because phyiscians are afraid of even talking about steroids.Its extra hard for me because I do lift weights and have pretty good size/strength.Right away I would be discrimated against with the doctor thinking I want them for athletic enhancement.
And it is known steroids do hit the CNS and Neurotransmitters(serotonin,ne,dopamine) hence the increased mood.How could Anabolics be worse than the SSRI'S,TCA's,NRI's or the other ad's if it preforms on the same mechanisms? It's shows no addiction potential or abuse potential.You can't get"high"like you do on recreational drugs.In New YORK it is a schedule 2 drug on the DEA's list,up there with morphine,opium and amphetamines...This is a huge joke for the justice system.
Posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 23:58:47
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections » stjames, posted by john Henry on July 30, 2003, at 21:04:23
> Also some researchers at Harvard and St.John's estimate that more than 50% of HIV-positive people ned hormone replacement therapy to support overall health? How could this be when you claim "roids" are so dangerous?
Seems you are not getting my posts either.
Posted by don_bristol on July 31, 2003, at 6:50:54
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 30, 2003, at 15:29:34
> This guy has found his "magic bullet"
>
> Has he ? Give anyone large doses of some androgens and they feel great. Nothing is
> proven by this, in the context of treating
> depression, because it is a given that anyone
> will feel pumped up on enough androgen.
> Large doses of cortisone "cured" depression,
> up until people went psychotic.
>
> I don't question there is a link to AD's and lowered testosterone. I am working this on this
> issue at present. I question drawing a false conclusion between black market steriods and
> a possible treatment for depression. How can one tell, as it is a given they will make anyone feel great ?
>StJames, you make a valid point here and I think you are saying that it is important not to confuse cause with effect. In other words, some people might say that they are low on testosterone and that it causes a low mood. And you might say it is the other way around.
In people with a normal level of testosterone you are probably right. But in people, like me, with borderline low levels of testosterone then it is worth seeing if restoring levels of testosterone improve mood.
In my case I have what is called hypergonadotrphic hypogonadism and I have had it for very many years. I have also had my low dysthymic mood for very many years. You may be right in that the mood has lowered the testosterone level or maybe it is the other way around.
Whatever it is, if I can break out of the vicious cycle then a normal balance can be restored. I think that is a good thing.
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 11:21:22
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by don_bristol on July 31, 2003, at 6:50:54
> StJames, you make a valid point here and I think you are saying that it is important not to confuse cause with effect. In other words, some people might say that they are low on testosterone and that it causes a low mood. And you might say it is the other way around.
Really I was saying 2 things. What you mentioned
above is one, I do wonder if the lowered testosterone is caused by depression itself, the meds, or both. The other issue is that giving anyone significant amounts of T will make them fell different. This does not prove the T is the issue in depression, unless one can show through testing that the levels of T are not normal. It also takes a doc to decide what is normal and what is not.
Posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 19:33:18
In reply to Re: testosterone equals bigger, stronger erections, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 11:21:22
www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/ cancer/handbook/hormones.pdf
Prostate cancer: The growth of prostate cancer is aided by male hor-mones, which as a group are called androgens. Anti-hormone therapy isused to slow the growth of metastatic prostate cancer. Anti-hormonetherapy includes suppressing the release of male hormones using high doses of female hormones (estrogens), hormone-suppressing drugs, andanti-androgens to block androgen receptors. Or the testicles are removedto eliminate the major source of androgens. If prostate cancer is confined to the prostate, surgical removal of the gland or radiotherapy is usuallythe best treatment.
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 20:07:55
In reply to androgens cancer, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 19:33:18
This is nothing but speculation backed by no scientifical research/controlled studies.This proves nothing.You can pull millions of texts speculating on prostate cancer,roid rage etc.
Where's all the bodybuilder's(who use tons of androgens) from the 60-70's with prostate cancer?
Where's the landslide reports of bodybuilders of today,who use way more now than the 60-70's guys?
Did you even look at all the links I provided? ACTUAL studies that show no rise in PSA levels at all?
This text proves nothing but theory and you are for sure not a reference librarian.> www.acs.ohio-state.edu/units/ cancer/handbook/hormones.pdf
>
> Prostate cancer: The growth of prostate cancer is aided by male hor-mones, which as a group are called androgens. Anti-hormone therapy isused to slow the growth of metastatic prostate cancer. Anti-hormonetherapy includes suppressing the release of male hormones using high doses of female hormones (estrogens), hormone-suppressing drugs, andanti-androgens to block androgen receptors. Or the testicles are removedto eliminate the major source of androgens. If prostate cancer is confined to the prostate, surgical removal of the gland or radiotherapy is usuallythe best treatment.
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 20:14:02
In reply to androgens cancer, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 19:33:18
Here's one
Actually read this.Go down and see the effects on PSA levels....
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 20:28:56
In reply to androgens cancer, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 19:33:18
This might shock you
Posted by john Henry on July 31, 2003, at 20:44:27
In reply to androgens cancer, posted by stjames on July 31, 2003, at 19:33:18
One of the biggest studies done on men and benign prostate hypertrophy or BPH show a strong association with BPH and serum ESTRADIOL.It also shows the risk is to men who have LOW LEVELS OF TESTOSTERONE.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7531326&dopt=Abstract
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