![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Maxime on June 18, 2003, at 9:30:21
Hi everyone - i come across so many suggestions on this board for different types of vitamins or minerals that help Bipolar disorder or moods in general.
Problem is I haven't keep track of them and there are some I would like to try.
I you are an alternative medicine, can we start a new list now. If possible give the dosages you take and the brand.
Or if someone has an URL with this information on it, please lead me to it.
Thanks,
Maxime
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2003, at 10:02:43
In reply to Vitamins mineral for moods, posted by Maxime on June 18, 2003, at 9:30:21
> Hi everyone - i come across so many suggestions on this board for different types of vitamins or minerals that help Bipolar disorder or moods in general.
>
> Problem is I haven't keep track of them and there are some I would like to try.
>
> I you are an alternative medicine, can we start a new list now. If possible give the dosages you take and the brand.
>
> Or if someone has an URL with this information on it, please lead me to it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> MaximeOne philosophical comment first.....if you make sudden changes in more than one nutrient, you're not going to know what does what, particularly if there's any adverse effects. So, consider this whole concept in the long term. No quick fix (though you may get quick benefits).
Notwithstanding what I just said, I think you could start on the following at the same time:
1. B-complex (50 mg 3 times a day) B-vitamins often are marketed as B-50 or some such. That means they contain either 50 mg or 50 micrograms of each B-vitamin, as appropriate.
2. zinc 30-50 mg, once a day.
3. selenium 200 mcg, once a day.
4. fish oil 3 grams/day, with a large meal.There's no reason to buy fancy brand names, IMHO. The house brand at Walmart is quite cheap, and of good quality.
After 3-4 weeks of these, then we can look at more specific nutrients, based on symptoms.
Lar
Posted by Maxime on June 18, 2003, at 11:06:54
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods » Maxime, posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2003, at 10:02:43
thanks Larry - I already take the fish oil. I have no intention of starting everything at once for the simple reason I don't have the money - lol!
I have been taking zinc and selenium for hair loss .... so what else does selenium do? Ah, never mind, I can look that one up. :-)
Thanks, Larry.
Max
> > Hi everyone - i come across so many suggestions on this board for different types of vitamins or minerals that help Bipolar disorder or moods in general.
> >
> > Problem is I haven't keep track of them and there are some I would like to try.
> >
> > I you are an alternative medicine, can we start a new list now. If possible give the dosages you take and the brand.
> >
> > Or if someone has an URL with this information on it, please lead me to it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Maxime
>
> One philosophical comment first.....if you make sudden changes in more than one nutrient, you're not going to know what does what, particularly if there's any adverse effects. So, consider this whole concept in the long term. No quick fix (though you may get quick benefits).
>
> Notwithstanding what I just said, I think you could start on the following at the same time:
> 1. B-complex (50 mg 3 times a day) B-vitamins often are marketed as B-50 or some such. That means they contain either 50 mg or 50 micrograms of each B-vitamin, as appropriate.
> 2. zinc 30-50 mg, once a day.
> 3. selenium 200 mcg, once a day.
> 4. fish oil 3 grams/day, with a large meal.
>
> There's no reason to buy fancy brand names, IMHO. The house brand at Walmart is quite cheap, and of good quality.
>
> After 3-4 weeks of these, then we can look at more specific nutrients, based on symptoms.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2003, at 13:19:11
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods Larry, posted by Maxime on June 18, 2003, at 11:06:54
> thanks Larry - I already take the fish oil. I have no intention of starting everything at once for the simple reason I don't have the money - lol!
>
> I have been taking zinc and selenium for hair loss .... so what else does selenium do? Ah, never mind, I can look that one up. :-)
>
> Thanks, Larry.
>
> MaxI forgot. We went over a bit of this a couple weeks back.
Selenium is both a key component of certain enzymes, but it also is part of the neuro-protective anti-oxidant network. It is required to minimize the effect of stress on the brain; mental illness is one such stressor. I would argue that the biochemical need is greater in mental illness, quite apart from the effect seen in "normal" people given a selenium supplement, i.e. an elevation in mood.
Your body will tend to "prioritize" selenium availability, so if you're showing e.g. hair loss as a symptom of selenium deficiency, you're suffering in other regards, almost with certainty.
B-vitamins are very inexpensive. You could add those without too much extra cost.
Lar
Posted by disney4 on June 19, 2003, at 13:50:35
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods Larry » Maxime, posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2003, at 13:19:11
I am going to try this combination too. I also take a multi vitamin daily. Should I take less of the additional zinc and b complex? I can't tolerate AD's and am in a pretty bad depression. I already take fish oil.
Posted by disney4 on June 19, 2003, at 14:47:15
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods Larry » Maxime, posted by Larry Hoover on June 18, 2003, at 13:19:11
There were two brands I looked into. One was Schiff which was a B complex 50 mg and the other was country life, which had these extra things in it....d-Biotin 300 mcg, Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 50 mg, Choline (as choline bitartrate) 25 mg, Inositol 25 mg, PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 25 mg. Is it better to go with the basic b complex or are these other ingrediants important too?
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 8:52:03
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods one more thing » Larry Hoover, posted by disney4 on June 19, 2003, at 14:47:15
> There were two brands I looked into. One was Schiff which was a B complex 50 mg and the other was country life, which had these extra things in it....d-Biotin 300 mcg, Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 50 mg, Choline (as choline bitartrate) 25 mg, Inositol 25 mg, PABA (para-aminobenzoic acid) 25 mg. Is it better to go with the basic b complex or are these other ingrediants important too?
>I'd go with the extras. Pantothenate is a B-vitamin.
Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too). Zinc is probably at about 15 mg in the multi, but you should aim for more like 40-50 mg a day.
If you can't tolerate ADs, I'd urge you to give SJW a try. It has a very low side-effect profile, comparable to placebo itself. Some people get digestive disturbance or headache, but those are transient side effects, easily treated with common remedies.
Despite persistent reporting that SJW is effective only for mild to moderate depression, that simply is not true. You need to match the dose to the symptoms, just as you would with any other antidepressant. There is no known overdose level of SJW (I'm not suggesting you swallow a whole bottle), and it is quite safe to go up to 1800 or more mg/day. Titrate the dose upwards until either remission of symptoms or persistent adverse effects occur. Just watch your sun exposure, as some people find they are more prone to sunburn. However, B-vitamins reduce sunburn tendency, so you may find no such adverse effect.
Keep in touch, okay?
Lar
Posted by McPac on June 20, 2003, at 19:44:40
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods one more thing » disney4, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 8:52:03
Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too).
>>>>>>>>>Lar, another poster here mentioned recently that "more than 200 mg/day of selenium is not good".......is there a daily limit?
If you can't tolerate ADs, I'd urge you to give SJW a try. It has a very low side-effect profile, comparable to placebo itself. Some people get digestive disturbance or headache, but those are transient side effects, easily treated with common remedies.
Despite persistent reporting that SJW is effective only for mild to moderate depression, that simply is not true.
>>>>>>>>>Geez, that's what I ALWAYS heard. I never thought it could be of use to me since I knew I needed something POWERFUL for severe depression. But now I'm wondering one other thing---anybody ever get relief from SJW for SEVERE ocd? You said take a higher dose for severe depression, could taking a higher dose for ocd possibly do anything? Does it have the effect of raising serotonin? (I know that some say that the serotonin thing isn't as important as is widely stated, but from everything I've read it does seem to say that the serotonin thing is what helps ocd...I don't know what to really believe, though the meds that supposedly work via mainly affecting serotonin are what has always worked for me, though again, I'm not really sure WHY it works I just know what DOES work). So, could SEVERE ocd possibly be helped by LARGER doses of SJW, like you are saying the higher doses for severe depression can work?
You need to match the dose to the symptoms, just as you would with any other antidepressant. There is no known overdose level of SJW (I'm not suggesting you swallow a whole bottle), and it is quite safe to go up to 1800 or more mg/day. Titrate the dose upwards until either remission of symptoms or persistent adverse effects occur. Just watch your sun exposure, as some people find they are more prone to sunburn. However, B-vitamins reduce sunburn tendency, so you may find no such adverse effect.
>>>>>>>>>>>Lar, just wanted to mention that I always try to read all of your posts. They are so informative and insightful. I always feel like I should pay you something for your advice though. You sure give better info than any doctor I ever paid a fortune to (and they never seemed to know much or do SQUAT for it, lol!)
p.s. I return to Pfeiffer next week! Looking forward to it. I'll be getting retested when I'm there also. It'll be interesting to compare my before/after test results (it's been 6 months on their supplement plan)...will have to see, among other things, if my very high histamine levels have come down. Take care Lar!!!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 20:05:48
In reply to Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods , posted by McPac on June 20, 2003, at 19:44:40
> Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too).
>
> >>>>>>>>>Lar, another poster here mentioned recently that "more than 200 mg/day of selenium is not good".......is there a daily limit?350 micrograms/day is the suggested long-term UL.
> If you can't tolerate ADs, I'd urge you to give SJW a try. It has a very low side-effect profile, comparable to placebo itself. Some people get digestive disturbance or headache, but those are transient side effects, easily treated with common remedies.
>
> Despite persistent reporting that SJW is effective only for mild to moderate depression, that simply is not true.Initial HAM-D scores of 25 or 26 are definitely severe depression.
Pharmacopsychiatry. 1997 Sep;30 Suppl 2:81-5.
Efficacy and tolerability of St. John's wort extract LI 160 versus imipramine in patients with severe depressive episodes according to ICD-10.
Vorbach EU, Arnoldt KH, Hubner WD.
Department of Psychiatry and Psychotherapy, Ev. Krankenhaus Elisabethenstift, Darmstadt, Germany.
The special extract of St. John's wort, LI 160, exhibited a superior antidepressant efficacy compared to placebo in several controlled trials. Two further trials demonstrated a similar reduction of depressive symptomatology under LI 160 compared to tricyclics. All these trials were performed in mildly to moderately depressed patients. The present investigation was a randomized, controlled, multicentre, 6-week trial comparing 1800 mg LI 160/die to 150 mg imipramine/die in severely depressed patients according to ICD-10. The main efficacy parameter, a reduction of the total score of the Hamilton Depression Scale, proved both treatment regimens very effective at the end of the 6 week treatment period (mean values 25.3 to 14.5 in the LI 160 group and 26.1 to 13.6 in the imipramine group), but not statistically equivalent within a a-priori defined 25% interval of deviation. The analysis of subgroups with more than a 33% and 50% reduction of the HAMD total score justified the assumption of equivalence within a 25% deviation interval. This view was also supported by the global efficacy ratings from patients and investigators. Regarding adverse events, the nonrejection of the nonequivalence hypothesis denotes a superiority of the herbal antidepressant. These main result indicate that LI 160 might be a treatment alternative to the synthetic tricyclic antidepressant imipramine in the majority of severe forms of depressions. However, more studies of this type must be performed before a stronger recommendation can be made.
> >>>>>>>>>Geez, that's what I ALWAYS heard. I never thought it could be of use to me since I knew I needed something POWERFUL for severe depression. But now I'm wondering one other thing---anybody ever get relief from SJW for SEVERE ocd? You said take a higher dose for severe depression, could taking a higher dose for ocd possibly do anything? Does it have the effect of raising serotonin? (I know that some say that the serotonin thing isn't as important as is widely stated, but from everything I've read it does seem to say that the serotonin thing is what helps ocd...I don't know what to really believe, though the meds that supposedly work via mainly affecting serotonin are what has always worked for me, though again, I'm not really sure WHY it works I just know what DOES work). So, could SEVERE ocd possibly be helped by LARGER doses of SJW, like you are saying the higher doses for severe depression can work?It's possible, sure. There is preliminary evidence of effectiveness in OCD.
J Clin Psychiatry. 2000 Aug;61(8):575-8.
An open-label trial of St. John's Wort (Hypericum perforatum) in obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Taylor LH, Kobak KA.
Dean Foundation for Health Research and Education, Middleton, WI 53562, USA.
BACKGROUND: Recent interest in and evidence for the efficacy of St. John's wort (Hypericum perforatum) for the treatment of mild-to-moderate depression has led to speculation about its efficacy in other disorders. Hypericum's mechanism of action is postulated to be via inhibition of the synaptosomal uptake of serotonin. As such, there is a suggestion that Hypericum may be effective for obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). METHOD: Twelve subjects were evaluated with a primary DSM-IV diagnosis of OCD of at least 12 months' duration. Treatment lasted for 12 weeks, with a fixed dose of 450 mg of 0.3% hypericin (a psychoactive compound in Hypericum) twice daily (extended-release formulation). Weekly evaluations were conducted with the Yale-Brown Obsessive Compulsive Scale (Y-BOCS), the Patient Global Impressions of Improvement Scale, and the Clinical Global Impressions of Improvement scale (CGI) and monthly evaluation with the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression. RESULTS: A significant change from baseline to endpoint was found, with a mean Y-BOCS change of 7.4 points (p = .001). Significant change occurred at 1 week (p = .020) and continued to increase throughout the trial. At endpoint, 5 (42%) of 12 were rated "much" or "very much improved" on the clinician-rated CGI, 6 (50%) were "minimally improved," and 1 (8%) had "no change." The most common side effects reported were diarrhea (N = 3) and restless sleep (N = 2). CONCLUSION: Significant improvement was found with Hypericum, with a drop-in Y-BOCS score similar to that found in clinical trials. The fact that a significant change was found as early as 1 week into treatment suggests a possible initial placebo response, although improvement grew larger over time. Results warrant a placebo-controlled study of Hypericum in OCD.
>
> You need to match the dose to the symptoms, just as you would with any other antidepressant. There is no known overdose level of SJW (I'm not suggesting you swallow a whole bottle), and it is quite safe to go up to 1800 or more mg/day. Titrate the dose upwards until either remission of symptoms or persistent adverse effects occur. Just watch your sun exposure, as some people find they are more prone to sunburn. However, B-vitamins reduce sunburn tendency, so you may find no such adverse effect.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Lar, just wanted to mention that I always try to read all of your posts. They are so informative and insightful. I always feel like I should pay you something for your advice though. You sure give better info than any doctor I ever paid a fortune to (and they never seemed to know much or do SQUAT for it, lol!)I'm just an opinionated geek.... ;-)
> p.s. I return to Pfeiffer next week! Looking forward to it. I'll be getting retested when I'm there also. It'll be interesting to compare my before/after test results (it's been 6 months on their supplement plan)...will have to see, among other things, if my very high histamine levels have come down. Take care Lar!!!!!
I'll be interested to hear how it goes......I'll be on the road for the next six weeks, though.
Take care, bud.
Lar
Posted by McPac on June 20, 2003, at 23:12:31
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 20:05:48
Lar, from the one study, "The special extract of St. John's wort, LI 160"
>>>>>> Wonder what LI 160 is? I mean, sometimes I'll read that "X" is the extract that you need, other times maybe it's "Y" that is the important extract in SJW.....so if you go to a store and buy some SJW, are you going to get the proper extracts that you need for depression/ocd in ANY SJW bottle OR do you have to look for a specific extract formulation of SJW? (hope you understand the gist of that question, lol) In other words, would one particular SJW formulation be best for depression, another formulation best for ocd, another formulation for something else? Or would ANY bottle of SJW suffice?
Lastly, I know that it's always said not to take SJW w/ an anti-dep. (serotonin syndrome)....I've also read websites where they'll say that true serotonin syndrome is very rare....now, lots of folks take multiple anti-dep's at once...and lots of folks take HIGH dosages of their anti-dep's...if I am only taking, say, a moderate anti-dep. dose, do you really think that the concern about taking an AD w/ SJW is as serious as some say? I mean, if one dude is taking 200 mg of Zoloft AND another decent dose of another AD, how is it that someone taking only 50 mg of only Zoloft should NEVER take it w/ SJW? It would seem that some folks might be able to cut down on an AD dose if they could add the SJW to their AD? Is the serotonin syndrome scare as likely as the "warnings" claim? Thanks in advance for your thoughts!!!!!
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2003, at 8:02:59
In reply to Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods, posted by McPac on June 20, 2003, at 23:12:31
> Lar, from the one study, "The special extract of St. John's wort, LI 160"
LI-160 is sold as Jarsin 300, or Kira, in the US.
http://www.aphanet.org/JAPhA/julyaug01pdfs/wurglics%20p560_566.pdf
The product in the above review known as Neuroplant is Perika in the US.
> >>>>>> Wonder what LI 160 is?
The article referenced above gives you an analysis of the content.
>I mean, sometimes I'll read that "X" is the extract that you need, other times maybe it's "Y" that is the important extract in SJW.....so if you go to a store and buy some SJW, are you going to get the proper extracts that you need for depression/ocd in ANY SJW bottle OR do you have to look for a specific extract formulation of SJW?
If you buy Kira or Perika, you're getting the German pharmaceutical-grade product.
>(hope you understand the gist of that question, lol) In other words, would one particular SJW formulation be best for depression, another formulation best for ocd, another formulation for something else? Or would ANY bottle of SJW suffice?
I have no idea which constituent would have the best effect on OCD. The open-label study just mentioned that it was standardized on hypericin.
> Lastly, I know that it's always said not to take SJW w/ an anti-dep. (serotonin syndrome)....I've also read websites where they'll say that true serotonin syndrome is very rare....now, lots of folks take multiple anti-dep's at once...and lots of folks take HIGH dosages of their anti-dep's...if I am only taking, say, a moderate anti-dep. dose, do you really think that the concern about taking an AD w/ SJW is as serious as some say?
I knew where this was going.....
Serotonin syndrome is a threat to life. It is a serious concern because it is serious. Under medical supervision, with a full awareness of the threshold (earliest) symptoms of serotonin syndrome, you could do it safely. On your own, without observation, I cannot suggest you do anything of the sort.
The good thing about SJW is that withdrawal of the drug quickly reverses the effects. But it is a drug, and should be given that respect.
>I mean, if one dude is taking 200 mg of Zoloft AND another decent dose of another AD, how is it that someone taking only 50 mg of only Zoloft should NEVER take it w/ SJW?
....without supervision....
>It would seem that some folks might be able to cut down on an AD dose if they could add the SJW to their AD? Is the serotonin syndrome scare as likely as the "warnings" claim? Thanks in advance for your thoughts!!!!!
It has been suggested, by renowned world expert Dr. Healey (sp?), that in cases of difficult SSRI withdrawal, that SJW is an option for easing the process. In that case, the dose of the replacement drug (SJW) is increased simultaneous to the decrease in the drug being withdrawn. This is a medically supervised process. Washout between drugs is clearly impossible under these circumstances, but great care is taken to consider the additive effects of the two substances.
You need to discuss this with your medical supporters. If you don't like their answer, you still need to find a medical supervisor for what you're considering. When you're dealing with psychoactive substances, you just can't trust your own judgment as a sole measure of what's really going on.
Lar
Posted by disney4 on June 21, 2003, at 14:04:02
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2003, at 8:02:59
I have added both selenium and the B complex to my daily routine and I am already feeling better. Placebo effect maybe, but I hope not. Anyway I will try St Johns Wort if I start feeling down again. I did not add the zinc, but may try that if I can find the right dosage to add to what I already get in my multi. Is the zinc as important for mood support?
I want to thank you for all your input. You seem like a very caring person!
Posted by McPac on June 21, 2003, at 14:39:38
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on June 21, 2003, at 8:02:59
(nm)
Posted by Questionmark on June 22, 2003, at 0:59:47
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods, posted by disney4 on June 21, 2003, at 14:04:02
Okay, i think i am pretty darn sensitive to psychoactive substances-- just about every drug that i can think of, legal or otherwise, i have always been quite sensitive to i think (with the possible exception of Paxil). But when it comes to nutrient supplementation and non-immediate-acting herbs (like say St. Johns Wort in contrast with ephedra), i have never been able to feel ANy effect or difference in mood whatsoever. i'm specifically curious about SJW, since that is usually supposed to have at least SOME effect.
i have tried SJW on at least three occasions for at least a month each time and... absolutely nothing. i took the standard dosage of the typical formulation (300mg extract stndrdzd to 0.3% hypericin content 3x/day), if not more. Now i never tried the LI160 extract i don't think, but still, you'd think i would have noticed at least sOMe effect, right? Zanyone have any explanation or advice etc. for this?
Thank you.
Posted by disney4 on June 22, 2003, at 7:29:30
In reply to St. John's Wort, posted by Questionmark on June 22, 2003, at 0:59:47
I am also very medication sensitive. I have to take sub therapeutic doses of everything and many meds I just can't tolerate at all. I do notice effects from fish oil and my latest addition of the b complex and selenium. I don't notice any difference from my multi vitamin, but I take that for the security of knowing I'm covered because I don't always eat right. I have tried St johns wort in the past and did notice a slight effect from it after about 4 weeks. I was not taking the proper dosage though, so that may explain it. Have you ever tried Sam-e. I know they say you have to take a large amount of it for psychiatric effects, but you may feel positive effects from a smaller dose. I have tried that also, but it made me tired. Everyone is different though, and I have read of many success stories with it. Just be sure to take the B complex if you give Sam-e a try.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 8:53:16
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: Vitamins mineral for moods, posted by disney4 on June 21, 2003, at 14:04:02
> I have added both selenium and the B complex to my daily routine and I am already feeling better. Placebo effect maybe, but I hope not.
B-vitamins can have an immediate effect. Selenium would probably take longer (weeks).
>Anyway I will try St Johns Wort if I start feeling down again.
I found it to be very tolerable in my drug sensitive body. It is a valid antidepressant option, despite the biased research done under the auspices of the AMA, which suggests that it has no benefit.
>I did not add the zinc, but may try that if I can find the right dosage to add to what I already get in my multi. Is the zinc as important for mood support?
No, it's not as important. If you're already getting 15 mg in your multi, you're doing OK. I'm probably a little skewed by my own zinc requirement. I need a lot, and I may be projecting a little bit on that one mineral.
> I want to thank you for all your input. You seem like a very caring person!
My gut said to reach out to you. I'm glad you felt the caring. It's real.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 8:54:30
In reply to St. John's Wort, posted by Questionmark on June 22, 2003, at 0:59:47
> Okay, i think i am pretty darn sensitive to psychoactive substances-- just about every drug that i can think of, legal or otherwise, i have always been quite sensitive to i think (with the possible exception of Paxil). But when it comes to nutrient supplementation and non-immediate-acting herbs (like say St. Johns Wort in contrast with ephedra), i have never been able to feel ANy effect or difference in mood whatsoever. i'm specifically curious about SJW, since that is usually supposed to have at least SOME effect.
So, I can assume no adverse effects, either?
> i have tried SJW on at least three occasions for at least a month each time and... absolutely nothing. i took the standard dosage of the typical formulation (300mg extract stndrdzd to 0.3% hypericin content 3x/day), if not more. Now i never tried the LI160 extract i don't think, but still, you'd think i would have noticed at least sOMe effect, right? Zanyone have any explanation or advice etc. for this?
> Thank you.It is possible you were sold fraudulent products on each occasion. There have been a number of independent analyses of SJW products on the market in North America, and the outcomes are remarkably similar for each such analysis: about 1/3 of all products contain no, or less than 10%, of the labelled active ingredients, 1/3 contain substantially less than the labelled ingredients, and about 1/3 meet or exceed labelled concentrations.
Alternatively, you didn't use enough to obtain an effect in *your* body. There has never been a reported case of SJW overdose. It has been used, in preliminary research studies, at 22,000 mg/day as an antiviral in AIDS patients (since shown to be contraindicated due to induction of liver enzymes which clear other antivirals from the body). At 22,000 mg/day, sun sensitivity was an issue.
If you get some Kira or Perika, and they don't work, I'd say you'd have exhausted your options with SJW.
Lar
Posted by blueheeler on June 23, 2003, at 23:03:58
In reply to Re: Vitamins mineral for moods one more thing » disney4, posted by Larry Hoover on June 20, 2003, at 8:52:03
>
> Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too). Zinc is probably at about 15 mg in the multi, but you should aim for more like 40-50 mg a day.
Hi LarryHere in Australia vitamin manufacturers are required by law to add the following statement on the label of any supplement containing selenium
"This product contains selenium, which is toxic in high doses. Signs of toxicity may include loss of hair and nails. Do not exceed a daily dose of 100 micrograms of selenium from all sources other than food."
What do you know about the Australian recommended doses of selenium in supplement form (of 100mcg MAXIMUM per day) and this warning on the labels of products containing selenium in Australia and the discrepancy between this and the recommended doses of selenium in North America?
Regards
blueheeler***( formerly bluedog but I forgot my password and had to re-register under a new name)***
Posted by Questionmark on June 24, 2003, at 2:27:17
In reply to Re: St. John's Wort » Questionmark, posted by Larry Hoover on June 22, 2003, at 8:54:30
> It is possible you were sold fraudulent products on each occasion. There have been a number of independent analyses of SJW products on the market in North America, and the outcomes are remarkably similar for each such analysis: about 1/3 of all products contain no, or less than 10%, of the labelled active ingredients, 1/3 contain substantially less than the labelled ingredients, and about 1/3 meet or exceed labelled concentrations.
>
> Alternatively, you didn't use enough to obtain an effect in *your* body. There has never been a reported case of SJW overdose. It has been used, in preliminary research studies, at 22,000 mg/day as an antiviral in AIDS patients (since shown to be contraindicated due to induction of liver enzymes which clear other antivirals from the body). At 22,000 mg/day, sun sensitivity was an issue.
>
> If you get some Kira or Perika, and they don't work, I'd say you'd have exhausted your options with SJW.
>
> LarThank you Larry, and Disney4. Hm, i wonder if i wAsn't getting the appropriate dose. Makes me want to try Kira or Perika now. i think i will sometime. One last shot w/ St. Johns.
i didn't know B Vitamins could have such an immediate and substantial effect. That's neat. i haven't noticed, but, maybe/hopefully they're helping somehow.
Disney, yeah i tried SAMe too. 400mg/day. It did very little except maybe make me more anxious. Oh well. Thanks & take cares, both.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 29, 2003, at 9:25:11
In reply to Re: Selenium » Larry Hoover, posted by blueheeler on June 23, 2003, at 23:03:58
> >
> > Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too). Zinc is probably at about 15 mg in the multi, but you should aim for more like 40-50 mg a day.
>
>
> Hi Larry
>
> Here in Australia vitamin manufacturers are required by law to add the following statement on the label of any supplement containing selenium
>
> "This product contains selenium, which is toxic in high doses. Signs of toxicity may include loss of hair and nails. Do not exceed a daily dose of 100 micrograms of selenium from all sources other than food."
>
> What do you know about the Australian recommended doses of selenium in supplement form (of 100mcg MAXIMUM per day) and this warning on the labels of products containing selenium in Australia and the discrepancy between this and the recommended doses of selenium in North America?
>
> Regards
> blueheeler
>
> ***( formerly bluedog but I forgot my password and had to re-register under a new name)***Hey, dog. How ya been?
It might depend on how much is already in the diet. I know that New Zealanders are chronically deficient in selenium, but I don't know about Aussies. It really depends on the soil.
Here's a quotation from an article in the Jornal of Nutrition, "Selenomethionine: A Review of Its Nutritional Significance, Metabolism and Toxicity", by Gerhard N. Schrauzer
"Dietary Se intakes depend on regional Se availability and the types of foods consumed. In American adults, Se intakes typically range from 80 to 165 µg/d (53) . Although observations of subjects residing in high Se regions or taking Se supplements previously identified Se intakes of up to 724 µg/d by adults as safe, it is considered approximate. To provide a sufficiently wide margin of safety, the reference dose (RfD) for Se from all nutritional sources for a 70-kg human has been set at 350 µg/d (10) , corresponding to 5 µg Se/(kg body · d) or 5 times the recommended dietary allowance. The RfD thus defines as safe the total intake of Se by an American adult who is subsisting on a normal diet and is taking an additional 200 µg Se/d in the form of a nutritional supplement. The RfD may still be revised pending the outcome of ongoing studies by the Environmental Protection Agency, but is unlikely to change significantly in the light of currently available evidence."The full-text is available at:
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/7/1653Lar
Posted by blueheeler on July 3, 2003, at 9:42:40
In reply to Re: Selenium » blueheeler, posted by Larry Hoover on June 29, 2003, at 9:25:11
> > >
> > > Make sure you add selenium, to a total of at least 200 mcg/day (it should be in the multi, too). Zinc is probably at about 15 mg in the multi, but you should aim for more like 40-50 mg a day.
> >
> >
> > Hi Larry
> >
> > Here in Australia vitamin manufacturers are required by law to add the following statement on the label of any supplement containing selenium
> >
> > "This product contains selenium, which is toxic in high doses. Signs of toxicity may include loss of hair and nails. Do not exceed a daily dose of 100 micrograms of selenium from all sources other than food."
> >
> > What do you know about the Australian recommended doses of selenium in supplement form (of 100mcg MAXIMUM per day) and this warning on the labels of products containing selenium in Australia and the discrepancy between this and the recommended doses of selenium in North America?
> >
> > Regards
> > blueheeler
> >
> > ***( formerly bluedog but I forgot my password and had to re-register under a new name)***
>
> Hey, dog. How ya been?
>
> It might depend on how much is already in the diet. I know that New Zealanders are chronically deficient in selenium, but I don't know about Aussies. It really depends on the soil.
>
> Here's a quotation from an article in the Jornal of Nutrition, "Selenomethionine: A Review of Its Nutritional Significance, Metabolism and Toxicity", by Gerhard N. Schrauzer
>
>
> "Dietary Se intakes depend on regional Se availability and the types of foods consumed. In American adults, Se intakes typically range from 80 to 165 µg/d (53) . Although observations of subjects residing in high Se regions or taking Se supplements previously identified Se intakes of up to 724 µg/d by adults as safe, it is considered approximate. To provide a sufficiently wide margin of safety, the reference dose (RfD) for Se from all nutritional sources for a 70-kg human has been set at 350 µg/d (10) , corresponding to 5 µg Se/(kg body · d) or 5 times the recommended dietary allowance. The RfD thus defines as safe the total intake of Se by an American adult who is subsisting on a normal diet and is taking an additional 200 µg Se/d in the form of a nutritional supplement. The RfD may still be revised pending the outcome of ongoing studies by the Environmental Protection Agency, but is unlikely to change significantly in the light of currently available evidence."
>
> The full-text is available at:
> http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/7/1653
>
> LarThanks Larry
I've been dealing with some issues (legal) against my employer so I haven't had much spare time to post here at PB. I'm not doing too bad though considering all the dirty tricks my employer has been playing against me.....basically a depressed employee is seen by (the new) management as a broken machine that should be tossed onto the garbage heap and replaced with a new one. I obviously disagree therefore the legal battles.
Thanks for that article. I've also bookmarked the site itself for future reference. I think the local soil where I live is pretty well selenium deficient. Maybe the warning labels on the bottles are due to a case of toxicity from a selenium rich area here in Aussie land and as the legislation relating to vitamin supplements is passed by the federal government (as opposed to individual state governments) they have simply passed the law to cover the whole country not taking into account soil differences in a country as large as Australia (pretty similar in size to both the USA and Canada.
I'll look into this and If I find out more I'll let you know
hoping your well Larry
warm regards
bluedog
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 3, 2003, at 13:48:36
In reply to Re: Selenium » Larry Hoover, posted by blueheeler on July 3, 2003, at 9:42:40
> Thanks LarryYou're welcome.
> I've been dealing with some issues (legal) against my employer so I haven't had much spare time to post here at PB. I'm not doing too bad though considering all the dirty tricks my employer has been playing against me.....basically a depressed employee is seen by (the new) management as a broken machine that should be tossed onto the garbage heap and replaced with a new one. I obviously disagree therefore the legal battles.
As if depression wasn't enough of a burden, you still come across Neanderthals in suits.....
I hope you teach them a lesson in human rights. Go, dude.
> Thanks for that article. I've also bookmarked the site itself for future reference.It's an excellent site (nutrition.org), but the search feature is quirky as hell, and the most recent publications require fee-payment. Still, full-text articles are always welcome.....
>I think the local soil where I live is pretty well selenium deficient. Maybe the warning labels on the bottles are due to a case of toxicity from a selenium rich area here in Aussie land and as the legislation relating to vitamin supplements is passed by the federal government (as opposed to individual state governments) they have simply passed the law to cover the whole country not taking into account soil differences in a country as large as Australia (pretty similar in size to both the USA and Canada.
The problem is that the medical minds creating the legislation are conservative, no make that Conservative, no, CONSERVATIVE.
Too much selenium is toxic, no question. But too little is probably more dangerous yet.
> I'll look into this and If I find out more I'll let you know
>
> hoping your well Larry
> warm regards
> bluedogDoing well, thanks. My sleep problems have largely abated (finally), following withdrawal from Remeron (mirtazapine).
Anyway, glad to hear you're still kicking butt.
Lar
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