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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 10 of 10. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 9:53:15
I have recently heard about the supposed bad affects from Glutamic acid and aspartic acid. I dont know much about it, and all the websites I go to such as http://www.truthinlabeling.org/WebSites.html seem to be websites that are sensationalist and lack authority.
What do u guys think about the whole MSG/aspartate deal??
Anyone had good effects from changing their diet?
Posted by MB on June 7, 2003, at 14:44:28
In reply to MSG and aspartame etc, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 9:53:15
The page you linked to is definitely a little zealous and sensationalist. Here is a page that I found regarding aspartame, which "contains" aspartate: (a methyl ester is formed from methanol and phenylalanine which is then bonded to aspartate by a peptide bond). Glutamate (from MSG; monosodium glutamate) seems to bind to similar receptors as those that aspartate binds to (NMDA receptors):
http://www.chem.ox.ac.uk/mom/aspartame/aspartame.htmlThe links at the bottom of this page *do* seem a little "freaky" and biased.
Here's an article regarding glutamate (Glu) toxicity:
-------------------------------------
Neurotoxicology 1994 Fall;15(3):535-44 (ISSN: 0161-813X)
Olney JW
Department of Psychiatry, Washington University School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110.
Evidence is reviewed pertaining to excitatory neurotoxins (excitotoxins) encountered in human food supply. The most frequently encountered food excitotoxin is glutamate (Glu) which is commercially added to many foods despite evidence that it can freely penetrate certain brain regions and rapidly destroy neurons by hyperactivating the NMDA subtype of Glu receptor. Hypersensitivity of NMDA receptors during development makes the immature nervous system especially sensitive to Glu excitotoxicity. On the other hand, elderly consumers are particularly sensitive to domoic acid, a powerful excitotoxic Glu analog that activates both NMDA and non-NMDA receptors. A high content of domoic acid in shell fish caused a recent food poisoning incident that killed some elderly victims and caused brain damage and memory impairment in others. Neurolathyrism is a crippling neurodegenerative condition associated with ingestion of a legume that naturally contains BOAA, an excitotoxic Glu analog that hyperactivates non-NMDA receptors. Thus, the human food supply is a source of excitotoxins that can damage the brain by one type of mechanism to which immature consumers are hypervulnerable, or by other mechanisms to which adult and elderly consumers are peculiarly sensitive.---------------------------
Here is an article attesting to aspartame's safety. I guess you have to make your own decision...
----------------------------Regul Toxicol Pharmacol 2002 Apr;35(2 Pt 2):S1-93 (ISSN: 0273-2300)
Butchko HH; Stargel WW; Comer CP; Mayhew DA; Benninger C; Blackburn GL; de Sonneville LM; Geha RS; Hertelendy Z; Koestner A; Leon AS; Liepa GU; McMartin KE; Mendenhall CL; Munro IC; Novotny EJ; Renwick AG; Schiffman SS; Schomer DL; Shaywitz BA; Spiers PA; Tephly TR; Thomas JA; Trefz FK
Medical and Scientific Affairs, The NutraSweet Company, Mt Prospect, Illinois 60056, USA. harriett.h.butchko@nutrasweet.com.
Over 20 years have elapsed since aspartame was approved by regulatory agencies as a sweetener and flavor enhancer. The safety of aspartame and its metabolic constituents was established through extensive toxicology studies in laboratory animals, using much greater doses than people could possibly consume. Its safety was further confirmed through studies in several human subpopulations, including healthy infants, children, adolescents, and adults; obese individuals; diabetics; lactating women; and individuals heterozygous (PKUH) for the genetic disease phenylketonuria (PKU) who have a decreased ability to metabolize the essential amino acid, phenylalanine. Several scientific issues continued to be raised after approval, largely as a concern for theoretical toxicity from its metabolic components--the amino acids, aspartate and phenylalanine, and methanol--even though dietary exposure to these components is much greater than from aspartame. Nonetheless, additional research, including evaluations of possible associations between aspartame and headaches, seizures, behavior, cognition, and mood as well as allergic-type reactions and use by potentially sensitive subpopulations, has continued after approval. These findings are reviewed here. The safety testing of aspartame has gone well beyond that required to evaluate the safety of a food additive. When all the research on aspartame, including evaluations in both the premarketing and postmarketing periods, is examined as a whole, it is clear that aspartame is safe, and there are no unresolved questions regarding its safety under conditions of intended use.
Don't know if this helps or is more confusing. I drink a diet Coke once in a while, but I no longer drink them by the six-pack like I used to.MB
Posted by ladylight57 on June 7, 2003, at 14:46:39
In reply to MSG and aspartame etc, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 9:53:15
I have never tolerated aspertame well and except for very occaisional use, I've removed it from my diet.
My experience with it is that it gives me headaches, disrupts my sleep and worsens my depression. The reduction in symptoms is so pronounced for me, that I've quit the stuff and never looked back. I wasn't able to find much support for this, but quite frankly, I don't care. Giving it up has been one of the best things I've ever done for myself.
Are you having problems with it, or just looking for information in general? It might be worth removing it from your diet to see what the results might be. I'd be interested to know how you make out, or if you find any more information on it.
Ladylight
Posted by ladylight57 on June 7, 2003, at 15:04:02
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc, posted by MB on June 7, 2003, at 14:44:28
http://www.dorway.com/betty/toxictim.txt
Here is a link to an article that I thought was pretty interesting.....it takes some work to get through it, but it has a lot of information in it. HTH
ladylight
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2003, at 17:33:51
In reply to MSG and aspartame etc, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 9:53:15
> I have recently heard about the supposed bad affects from Glutamic acid and aspartic acid. I dont know much about it, and all the websites I go to such as http://www.truthinlabeling.org/WebSites.html seem to be websites that are sensationalist and lack authority.
Agreed. By over-extending into hyperbole, they lose credibility altogether. It's hard to find the truth, given the choice between hyperbole on the one hand, and the "industrial-food-processing-complex" whitewash on the other.
> What do u guys think about the whole MSG/aspartate deal??
OK, here's my super-simplistic summary statement: Avoid them if they cause you problems.
One of the coping strategies that is a core part of my wellness-program is stress reduction. In more than trace amounts, glutamate and aspartate can be stressors. They are excitatory, and in some respects, may be thought to mimic adrenergic excitation. Why "accept" them into my diet?
> Anyone had good effects from changing their diet?
Given that you're most likely to run into these bad boys in the context of processed food, I already know I do better on my own home-cookin', so the question is somewhat moot. However, if I eat out, I can pretty much tell you how much hydrolyzed protein is in the meal. I'm pretty sensitive to it.
Lar
Posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:10:55
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc » samplemethod, posted by Larry Hoover on June 7, 2003, at 17:33:51
Yeh have the same reaction to hyperbolic websites.
What I will do is trial reducing MSG and aspartame.
Lar, can you explain your reasoning about avoiding the excitatory glutamate and aspartate substances in light of you taking NADH and TMG.
I sort of read somewhere about altering the NMDA receptors, when taking both glycine and glutamate. During a period of major head sluggishness and motivation after eating anything (which is not my usual reaction), and at a time I had the glycinate form of mag in my diet, I thought to myself the glycine from the glycinate and the glutamate from the MSG was stuffing me up.Check out this info below to get to know what I mean.
http://www.burnham-inst.org/TechnologyTransfer/LicensingOpportunities/LicensingOpportunitiesReports/NovelGlycineReceptor.asp
NOVEL GLYCINE RECEPTOR Principal Investigators: Stuart A. Lipton, M.D., Ph.D. <../../../FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/stuart_lipton_bio.asp> and Dongxian Zhang, Ph.D. <../../../FacultyAndResearch/Faculty/dongxian_zhang_bio.asp> Application: Neurological, Ion Channels Invention: Scientists at The Burnham Institute have discovered the final member of subunits in this family of receptors, called NR3B. Institute scientists have also discovered novel functional, excitatory glycine receptor which is created by using a combination of NMDAR subunits. Patent Status: US and Foreign Patents pending. Background: NMDA receptors (NMDAR) are glutamate receptors which are well known in the field of Neurobiology as ligand gated cation channel receptors which mediate the excitatory nervous response in the CNS. NMDARs, unlike other glutamate receptors require the presence of dual agonists: glutamate and glycine. NMDARs are extremely important in the development of the nervous system, synaptic plasticity, memory and other CNS processes; but excessive stimulation of NMDARs has been implicated in many pathological conditions (stroke, ischemia, glaucoma, depression, Alzheimer’s disease, Huntington disease, etc.). The current NMDA receptor subunits are inadequate to explain the entire pharmacology of these receptors.Previously, only inhibitory glycine receptors had been found and characterized, this is the first known glycine receptor that is not responsive to glutamate. These glycine receptors are far less permeable to calcium ions than previously known NMDARs. This discovery can be used to screen for inhibitors and agonists of this new type of excitatory glycine receptor. Various functions have been hypothesized for this new type of receptor and research is underway to characterize the physiological function of this new type of receptor. The new subunits that have been cloned by Institute scientists, designated NR3 subunits, have two properties of interest: (1) they can antagonize NMDAR-mediated currents if expressed with the known NR1 and NR2 subunits. A knock out mouse of at least one NR3 subunit results in overactivation of NMDARs and seizures; and (2) if expressed with NR1 alone, NR3 produces the excitatory glycine receptor discussed above. References: Chatterton, J., et al., Excitatory glycine receptors containing the NR3 family of NMDA receptor subunits, Nature 2002; 415: 793-798.
Sasaki YF, et al. Characterization and comparison of the NR3A subunit of the NMDA receptor in recombinant systems and primary cerebrocortical neurons. J Neurophysiol. 2002;87:2052-2063.
Pérez-Otaño I, et al. Assembly with the NR1 subunit is required for surface expression of NR3A-containing NMDA receptors. J Neurosci 2001 21:1228-1237.
Das S, et al. Increased NMDA current and spine density in mice lacking the NMDA receptor subunit NR3A. Nature (London) 1998;393:377-381.
-----------------------------------------
> > I have recently heard about the supposed bad affects from Glutamic acid and aspartic acid. I dont know much about it, and all the websites I go to such as http://www.truthinlabeling.org/WebSites.html seem to be websites that are sensationalist and lack authority.
>
> Agreed. By over-extending into hyperbole, they lose credibility altogether. It's hard to find the truth, given the choice between hyperbole on the one hand, and the "industrial-food-processing-complex" whitewash on the other.
>
> > What do u guys think about the whole MSG/aspartate deal??
>
> OK, here's my super-simplistic summary statement: Avoid them if they cause you problems.
>
> One of the coping strategies that is a core part of my wellness-program is stress reduction. In more than trace amounts, glutamate and aspartate can be stressors. They are excitatory, and in some respects, may be thought to mimic adrenergic excitation. Why "accept" them into my diet?
>
> > Anyone had good effects from changing their diet?
>
> Given that you're most likely to run into these bad boys in the context of processed food, I already know I do better on my own home-cookin', so the question is somewhat moot. However, if I eat out, I can pretty much tell you how much hydrolyzed protein is in the meal. I'm pretty sensitive to it.
>
> Lar
>
>
Posted by Viridis on June 8, 2003, at 4:52:31
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc, posted by ladylight57 on June 7, 2003, at 15:04:02
I wonder about MSG. I recall seeing the results of a fairly large study not too long ago in which people who reported MSG sensitivity were tested for their reaction to MSG. Unfortunately, I can't recall where, or all the details (and haven't bothered to track it down yet), but the gist of it was that some of the "MSG sensitives" were given food that they were told contained MSG but didn't, some were given MSG-containing food and told so, some were given food without MSG and told so, and some were given food without MSG but told that MSG was present.
Those who believed they had consumed MSG had a significantly higher incidence of "reactions" (headaches, stomach upset, agitation, etc.), whether the food actually contained MSG or not. Conversely, if the person believed no MSG was present (even if it was) the incidence of "reactions" was very low. The conclusion was that a very small proportion of the population may actually be MSG-sensitive, but nowhere near the number who believe themselves to be. It struck me as a nice example of the power of suggestion.
As for aspartame -- I really haven't followed this much, since I consume very little, but unless you're drinking great quantities of diet drinks etc., it seems unlikely you'd get much more phenylalanine and aspartic acid than you already would if your diet is fairly high in protein. Based on my limited knowledge, the aspartame thing seems mostly hype to me (unless you happen to be phenylketonuric, i.e., unable to properly metabolize phenylalanine).
One site I looked at stressed the large number of carriers for phenylketonuria (PKU) and suggested that they're at risk. The actual incidence of the disease is fairly low, but "carriers", who possess just one copy of the defective version of the relevant gene but have a second "good" copy, are fairly common. PKU is well-understood as a recessive disorder, meaning that carriers are metabolically indistinguishable from those with two normal copies of the gene (two parents who are carriers have a 1 in 4 chance of producing a PKU child). Unless the anti-aspartame lobby knows something about the genetics of PKU that others don't, this just strikes me as risk inflation and sensationalization.
I realize that some food additives, supplements, etc. can have very real effects, but these two just don't appear to be high on the risk list for the average person with moderate consumption.
My focus is on obtaining adequate levels of key nutrients (some partly via supplements, e.g., fish oil, TMG, selenium, vit. E etc.), maintaining a diverse and reasonably balanced diet, and avoiding the additives that I consider demonstrably bad. Trans-fats = artificially hydrogenated oils top the list here, along with the "natural" sweeteners that are added to so many products, like high-fructose corn syrup etc.
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2003, at 8:12:45
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc, posted by samplemethod on June 7, 2003, at 23:10:55
> Lar, can you explain your reasoning about avoiding the excitatory glutamate and aspartate substances in light of you taking NADH and TMG.Darn good question.
The answer is very subjective. Some excitatory substances have a net beneficial effect on my energy budget, and some decrease my available reserves.
Because of chronic fatigue syndrome, I have been forced into exquisite awareness of my available energy reserves. If I use too much, it's like being overdrawn at the bank; penalty charges can be grossly out of proportion to the overdraft. Stay within the budget, however, and you can proceed normally.
Against that background, I have my own experiences with a variety of stimuli. Some, like the hydrolyzed protein flavour enhancers, seem to reduce my energy reserves. Others, like NADH and TMG, increase my energy availability.
Maybe it's my personal dose-responsiveness that determines these outcomes; certainly, I've already found that too much NADH leads to adverse reactions. And I do use a little hydrolyzed protein when I'm making soup. (I'm full of contradictions, in case you were wondering. If I think there's a "line" between two phenomena, I will play with the parameters without even realizing I'm doing so.) I didn't even realize I've always added this stuff to soup, until I stopped to read the ingredients one day. Chicken broth powder isn't really about chickens.
In any case, what I take to be an MSG-reaction only occurs when I eat out. I don't get it at home from my cooking. Of course, it could be something else causing the problem.
I've never liked the taste of aspartame; it tastes metallic to me, rather than sweet.
Whatever the purported toxic activity of aspartame arises from, I doubt it's from the methanol moiety. There's more methanol in a glass of orange juice than in a large bottle of diet soda. Your liver is just waiting to destroy a little methanol. More likely is the accidental mimicry of an existing dipeptide signalling molecule, the sensitivity to which will vary with your genetic makeup.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2003, at 8:23:57
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc, posted by Viridis on June 8, 2003, at 4:52:31
> I wonder about MSG. I recall seeing the results of a fairly large study not too long ago in which people who reported MSG sensitivity were tested for their reaction to MSG. Unfortunately, I can't recall where, or all the details (and haven't bothered to track it down yet), but the gist of it was that some of the "MSG sensitives" were given food that they were told contained MSG but didn't, some were given MSG-containing food and told so, some were given food without MSG and told so, and some were given food without MSG but told that MSG was present.
I read that study, too. There are related additives used as flavour enhancers which may affect some people when combined with MSG, where the MSG alone would induce no reaction.
I understand the questions raised, about suggestibility, and so on, but my personal experience is that restaurant/institutional food often triggers something unpleasant in me. Headache, queasiness, flushing, general malaise.
> I realize that some food additives, supplements, etc. can have very real effects, but these two just don't appear to be high on the risk list for the average person with moderate consumption.It is an axiom in toxicology (my specialty), "The dose makes the poison." What I think is often not realized is that the dose-responsiveness in the population at large can vary substantially; 100-fold differences are not too uncommon.
It comes down to individual responsibility, IMHO. It's not that MSG and aspartame et al are toxins which should be banned from the food supply....It's that individuals should be aware of what they're putting in their mouths. If restaurant food (or particular sources thereof) gives you an unpleasant reaction, don't eat there. If you worry about diet soda being safe (even without overt adverse reaction to it), don't drink it.
Climbing down off my soap box,
Lar
Posted by Simcha on June 8, 2003, at 11:13:07
In reply to Re: MSG and aspartame etc » Viridis, posted by Larry Hoover on June 8, 2003, at 8:23:57
This is a very difficult subject that I don't understand fully. That being said...
I have limited my aspartame exposure to one diet coke per month on average. Sometimes I just like the taste. I used to drink it everyday. A friend of mine told me about the possible effects of aspartame. Now, I don't use saccharin either because of similar issues. If it's in something I eat occasionally I don't freak out.
I've also heard that the aluminum used in pop cans can come off into the pop and enter the blood stream and end up in the brain. I don't have any scientific studies of this. I don't drink out of cans very often. My pots and pans are steel. I just remember that lead is bad and perhaps there might be something to this aluminum thing.
I don't know. I just try everything in moderation. I don't believe everything I read even if it seems to have good "science" behind it. Science is as much a belief system as any religion. Most of the time it hits the mark, yet sometimes it can't explain natural phenomena.
Well, that's my wandering, caffeine from the coffee is starting to kick in with the Celexa, Wellbutrin, Allegra, Azmacort, and Albuterol that I just took. *wink*
Just Trying to Have a Life,
Simcha
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