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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 20, 2003, at 12:55:21
Well, it's your favorite chronic agoraphobe here, folks. I just wanted to check in, and continue to rant and rave about how much Mirapex has given me a life.
But the big thing today is, I spent $70 on supplements the other day, and I want your opinion on them.
--1ml gingko extract, to counteract the minor sexual side effects of Lexapro
--250mg Acetyl-l-carnitine, because l-carnitine helped me with the Atkins diet last time, and I've heard the acetyl version is better
--B-complex sublingual liquid, 1ml
--B-6... because of the...
--L-tyrosine, 500mg morning and night
--500mg niacinamide four times a day, for anxiety
--30mg pregnenolone, for social phobia, other effects
--Enada NADH 10mg because I'm LOVING the dopamine thing now that I'm on Mirapex. :) I also still take picamilon, 50mg three times a day, 800 I.U. vitamin E, and one Theragran-M multivitamin.What do you all think of this?
Posted by Edgefield on May 20, 2003, at 18:21:32
In reply to Success and Supplements: Larry, others?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 20, 2003, at 12:55:21
Hello there! I don't have any thing to say about your vitamins, but I would like to know more about the benefits you have experienced with Mirapex.
I mentioned that med. to my pdoc three weeks ago and she wasn't familiar with that med. I've read other postings here about Mirapex. I'm wondering if it would help my mood and especially to eliminate this spacey feeling (derealization) that I'm experiencing. This is my third week on the combo. of Wellbutrin SR plus Fluoxetine and I have seen great improvement with the addition of the Wellbutrin SR.
Thanks for the information.
God Bless
Edgefield> Well, it's your favorite chronic agoraphobe here, folks. I just wanted to check in, and continue to rant and rave about how much Mirapex has given me a life.
>
> But the big thing today is, I spent $70 on supplements the other day, and I want your opinion on them.
>
> --1ml gingko extract, to counteract the minor sexual side effects of Lexapro
> --250mg Acetyl-l-carnitine, because l-carnitine helped me with the Atkins diet last time, and I've heard the acetyl version is better
> --B-complex sublingual liquid, 1ml
> --B-6... because of the...
> --L-tyrosine, 500mg morning and night
> --500mg niacinamide four times a day, for anxiety
> --30mg pregnenolone, for social phobia, other effects
> --Enada NADH 10mg because I'm LOVING the dopamine thing now that I'm on Mirapex. :) I also still take picamilon, 50mg three times a day, 800 I.U. vitamin E, and one Theragran-M multivitamin.
>
> What do you all think of this?
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:22:11
In reply to Success and Supplements: Larry, others?, posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 20, 2003, at 12:55:21
> Well, it's your favorite chronic agoraphobe here, folks. I just wanted to check in, and continue to rant and rave about how much Mirapex has given me a life.
>
> But the big thing today is, I spent $70 on supplements the other day, and I want your opinion on them.
>
> --1ml gingko extract, to counteract the minor sexual side effects of Lexapro
> --250mg Acetyl-l-carnitine, because l-carnitine helped me with the Atkins diet last time, and I've heard the acetyl version is better
> --B-complex sublingual liquid, 1ml
> --B-6... because of the...
> --L-tyrosine, 500mg morning and night
> --500mg niacinamide four times a day, for anxiety
> --30mg pregnenolone, for social phobia, other effects
> --Enada NADH 10mg because I'm LOVING the dopamine thing now that I'm on Mirapex. :) I also still take picamilon, 50mg three times a day, 800 I.U. vitamin E, and one Theragran-M multivitamin.
>
> What do you all think of this?No minerals? I'd strongly suggest selenium (200-300 mcg/day), zinc (40 mg/day), and a trial of magnesium (500 or more mg/day). Vitamin B-12, too (1,000 mcg/day, at least for a few weeks). It's a mineral (in a sense), called cobalamin. It has cobalt "built in".
If you're exposed to mercury (as we all are, every day), selenium will become bound to the mercury (detoxification process), but also preventing the selenium from doing its many other jobs. One little considered aspect of selenium is its central role in the thyroid hormone system. Production of T4, conversion to T3, and aspects of utilization of T3 depend on selenium-containing enzymes. Thyroid hormones also have a neurotransmitter function withing the brain, which should be seen as a completely distinct action from the peripheral effects on energy utilization.
Biol Psychiatry 1991 Jun 1;29(11):1092-8
The impact of selenium supplementation on mood.
Benton D, Cook R.
Department of Psychology, University College, Swansea, Wales, UK.
The possibility that a subclinical deficiency of the trace element selenium might exist in a sample of the British population was examined by giving a selenium supplement for 5 weeks. Using a double-blind cross-over design, 50 subjects received either a placebo or 100 mcg selenium on a daily basis. On three occasions they filled in the Profile of Moods States. A food frequency questionnaire was used to estimate the intake of selenium in the diet. Intake was associated with a general elevation of mood and in particular, a decrease in anxiety. The change in mood when taking the active tablet was correlated with the level of selenium in the diet, which was estimated from a food frequency questionnaire. The lower the level of selenium in the diet the more reports of anxiety, depression, and tiredness, decreased following 5 weeks of selenium therapy. The results are discussed in terms of the low level of selenium in the food chain in some parts of the world.
Nutr Neurosci 2002 Dec;5(6):363-74
Selenium intake, mood and other aspects of psychological functioning.
Benton D.
Department of Psychology, University of Wales Swansea, Swansea SA2 8PP, Wales, UK. d.benton@swansea.ac.uk
Selenium is an essential trace element although the level of selenium in food items reflects the soil in which they were grown and thus varies markedly between different parts of the world. The metabolism of selenium by the brain differs from other organs in that at times of deficiency the brain retains selenium to a greater extent. The preferential retention of selenium in the brain suggests that it plays important functions. To date mood is the clearest example of an aspect of psychological functioning that is modified by selenium intake. Five studies have reported that a low selenium intake was associated with poorer mood. The underlying mechanism is unclear although a response to supplementation was found with doses greater than those needed to produce maximal activity of the selenoprotein glutathione peroxidase. Although the functions of many selenoproteins are unknown some play important roles in anti-oxidant mechanisms. As there are suggestions that oxidative injury plays a role in normal aging, schizophrenia, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease, the possible role of selenium is considered. Although there is evidence that supplementation with anti-oxidant vitamins shown some promise with Alzheimer's patients, and in preventing the development of tardive dyskinesia in schizophrenics taking neuroleptics, a role for selenium has been little considered.
Med Hypotheses 2001 Oct;57(4):480-3
Role of thyroid hormones in the effects of selenium on mood, behavior, and cognitive function.Sher L.
Changes in thyroid function may affect mood, behavior, and cognitive function. Selenium is required for appropriate thyroid hormone synthesis, activation, and metabolism. Selenium status influences thyroid function. Selenium status also affects psychological condition and cognitive function. The author suggests that the effects of selenium status on mood, behavior, and cognition may be partly mediated by changes induced by selenium deficiency or selenium supplementation in thyroid function. Selenium deficiency decreases immunocompetence and promotes viral infections. The author proposes that patients who have a combination of depression, hypothyroidism, and increased susceptibility to viral infections, could reasonably be assessed for selenium deficiency, especially if they live in an area where the soil is low in selenium.
About zinc: Most people fail to ingest even the RDA, but stress increases the demand well above the RDA. I *know* I don't use zinc efficiently, because my sense of taste and smell often decline. Zinc is a key component of the sensory mechanism of taste and smell. When my sense of taste goes down, I reach for the zinc. For some reason, most references in Pubmed do not include abstracts that I can post, but here's what I can find:
J Affect Disord 1994 Jun;31(2):135-40
Hypozincemia in depression.
Maes M, D'Haese PC, Scharpe S, D'Hondt P, Cosyns P, De Broe ME.
Department of Psychiatry, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH.
This study investigates serum levels of zinc in 48 unipolar depressed subjects (16 minor, 14 simple major and 18 melancholic subjects) and 32 normal volunteers, and the relationships between zincemia and plasma neopterin levels, postdexamethasone adrenocorticotropic hormone and cortisol values, and anorexia-weight loss. Serum zinc levels were significantly lower in major depressed subjects than in normal controls, whereas minor depressed subjects showed intermediate values. There were significant negative correlations between serum zinc, and severity of depression and plasma neopterin concentrations. No significant relationships between zincemia and either postdexamethasone hormone values or anorexia/weight loss were found. The findings suggest that hypozincemia in major depression may be related to activation of cell-mediated immunity in that illness.
Biol Psychiatry 1997 Sep 1;42(5):349-58
Lower serum zinc in major depression is a sensitive marker of treatment resistance and of the immune/inflammatory response in that illness.Maes M, Vandoolaeghe E, Neels H, Demedts P, Wauters A, Meltzer HY, Altamura C, Desnyder R.
Clinical Research Center Mental Health, University Department of Psychiatry, Antwerp, Belgium.
The aims of the present study were to examine i) serum zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) in treatment resistant depression (TRD); ii) the effects of subchronic antidepressant therapy on these trace elements; and iii) the relationships between serum Zn and Cu and immune/inflammatory markers. Serum Zn was significantly lower in TRD than in normal controls. There was a significant inverse correlation between baseline serum Zn and staging of depression based on severity of prior treatment resistance. There were no significant effects of antidepressive treatment on serum Zn, whereas serum Cu was significantly reduced. There were highly significant correlations between serum Zn and the CD4+/CD8+ T-cell ratio (negative), and total serum protein, serum albumin, and transferrin (all positive). The results suggest that lower serum Zn is a marker of TRD and of the immune/inflammatory response in depression. It is suggested that treatment resistance may bear a relationship with the immune/inflammatory alterations in major depression.
I don't think I need to talk about magnesium, considering the number of recent threads on the subject.
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 21, 2003, at 14:37:46
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:22:11
Oops, I forgot to mention, I already do take 100mcg selenium per day and have been for a year or so, so I just sort of forgot. Good recommendation though... the stuff really helps.
Would a combination magnesium/zinc formulation be appropriate?
Oh, and today I started 1 gram vitamin C with rose hips per day.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 16:30:54
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others? » Larry Hoover, posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 21, 2003, at 14:37:46
> Oops, I forgot to mention, I already do take 100mcg selenium per day and have been for a year or so, so I just sort of forgot. Good recommendation though... the stuff really helps.
Would you care to share your experience? Helpful, how?
> Would a combination magnesium/zinc formulation be appropriate?
I don't know of a benefit or cost of a combination formulation, but I have a personal bias against them; the ratio of one ingredient to the other is set by someone else. I don't mind taking more pills in order to get exactly what I want.
> Oh, and today I started 1 gram vitamin C with rose hips per day.Vitamin C is very important for depressives, IMHO. Good one. I forgot about it.
Lar
Posted by Ame Sans Vie on May 21, 2003, at 16:56:57
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others?, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 16:30:54
Inositol has been very soothing, though very expensive, at 8 grams per day. Sort of like drinking a chamomile tea, I think. Just some background stability.
Posted by Jack Smith on May 21, 2003, at 19:21:16
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others?, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 16:30:54
Posted by McPac on May 21, 2003, at 20:13:58
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others?, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 16:30:54
Vitamin C is very important for depressives, IMHO. Good one. I forgot about it.
>>>>>>>>Lar, do you believe that there is any difference in vitamin-C and Ester-c, as far as effectiveness? How many grams of vitamin-c would do the trick?
p.s. chromium for depression? (polynicotinate over picolinate)
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 22, 2003, at 13:22:32
In reply to Any particular type of Selenium? (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by Jack Smith on May 21, 2003, at 19:21:16
Organic selenium is best, IMHO. In this form, selenium is substituted for the sulfur atom in e.g. methionine, and the result is called seleno-methionine.
One of the commonly available supplemental sources is from yeast, not surprisingly called selenium yeast. It should say on the label. I would stay away from the mineral acid forms, called selenate and selenite.
Brazil nuts are a superb souce of selenium.
Lar
Posted by samplemethod on May 26, 2003, at 22:41:56
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others? » Ame Sans Vie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 21, 2003, at 13:22:11
Hi,
I was just wondering why you say a trial of magnesium Lar? I dunno much about Mg in relation to depression and anx, whats the basic run down?
anyway I bought 500mg tabs of chel mg yesterday
and sel yeaststill need to get back on the vit c, vit e and zinc.
cheers...
> > Well, it's your favorite chronic agoraphobe here, folks. I just wanted to check in, and continue to rant and rave about how much Mirapex has given me a life.
> >
> > But the big thing today is, I spent $70 on supplements the other day, and I want your opinion on them.
> >
> > --1ml gingko extract, to counteract the minor sexual side effects of Lexapro
> > --250mg Acetyl-l-carnitine, because l-carnitine helped me with the Atkins diet last time, and I've heard the acetyl version is better
> > --B-complex sublingual liquid, 1ml
> > --B-6... because of the...
> > --L-tyrosine, 500mg morning and night
> > --500mg niacinamide four times a day, for anxiety
> > --30mg pregnenolone, for social phobia, other effects
> > --Enada NADH 10mg because I'm LOVING the dopamine thing now that I'm on Mirapex. :) I also still take picamilon, 50mg three times a day, 800 I.U. vitamin E, and one Theragran-M multivitamin.
> >
> > What do you all think of this?
>
> No minerals? I'd strongly suggest selenium (200-300 mcg/day), zinc (40 mg/day), and a trial of magnesium (500 or more mg/day). Vitamin B-12, too (1,000 mcg/day, at least for a few weeks). It's a mineral (in a sense), called cobalamin. It has cobalt "built in".
>
> If you're exposed to mercury (as we all are, every day), selenium will become bound to the mercury (detoxification process), but also preventing the selenium from doing its many other jobs. One little considered aspect of selenium is its central role in the thyroid hormone system. Production of T4, conversion to T3, and aspects of utilization of T3 depend on selenium-containing enzymes. Thyroid hormones also have a neurotransmitter function withing the brain, which should be seen as a completely distinct action from the peripheral effects on energy utilization.
>
> Biol Psychiatry 1991 Jun 1;29(11):1092-8
>
> The impact of selenium supplementation on mood.
>
> Benton D, Cook R.
>
> Department of Psychology, University College, Swansea, Wales, UK.
>
> The possibility that a subclinical deficiency of the trace element selenium might exist in a sample of the British population was examined by giving a selenium supplement for 5 weeks. Using a double-blind cross-over design, 50 subjects received either a placebo or 100 mcg selenium on a daily basis. On three occasions they filled in the Profile of Moods States. A food frequency questionnaire was used to estimate the intake of selenium in the diet. Intake was associated with a general elevation of mood and in particular, a decrease in anxiety. The change in mood when taking the active tablet was correlated with the level of selenium in the diet, which was estimated from a food frequency questionnaire. The lower the level of selenium in the diet the more reports of anxiety, depression, and tiredness, decreased following 5 weeks of selenium therapy. The results are discussed in terms of the low level of selenium in the food chain in some parts of the world.
>
> Nutr Neurosci 2002 Dec;5(6):363-74
>
> Selenium intake, mood and other aspects of psychological functioning.
>
> Benton D.
>
> Department of Psychology, University of Wales Swansea, Swansea SA2 8PP, Wales, UK. d.benton@swansea.ac.uk
>
> Selenium is an essential trace element although the level of selenium in food items reflects the soil in which they were grown and thus varies markedly between different parts of the world. The metabolism of selenium by the brain differs from other organs in that at times of deficiency the brain retains selenium to a greater extent. The preferential retention of selenium in the brain suggests that it plays important functions. To date mood is the clearest example of an aspect of psychological functioning that is modified by selenium intake. Five studies have reported that a low selenium intake was associated with poorer mood. The underlying mechanism is unclear although a response to supplementation was found with doses greater than those needed to produce maximal activity of the selenoprotein glutathione peroxidase. Although the functions of many selenoproteins are unknown some play important roles in anti-oxidant mechanisms. As there are suggestions that oxidative injury plays a role in normal aging, schizophrenia, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease, the possible role of selenium is considered. Although there is evidence that supplementation with anti-oxidant vitamins shown some promise with Alzheimer's patients, and in preventing the development of tardive dyskinesia in schizophrenics taking neuroleptics, a role for selenium has been little considered.
>
> Med Hypotheses 2001 Oct;57(4):480-3
>
> Role of thyroid hormones in the effects of selenium on mood, behavior, and cognitive function.
>
> Sher L.
>
> Changes in thyroid function may affect mood, behavior, and cognitive function. Selenium is required for appropriate thyroid hormone synthesis, activation, and metabolism. Selenium status influences thyroid function. Selenium status also affects psychological condition and cognitive function. The author suggests that the effects of selenium status on mood, behavior, and cognition may be partly mediated by changes induced by selenium deficiency or selenium supplementation in thyroid function. Selenium deficiency decreases immunocompetence and promotes viral infections. The author proposes that patients who have a combination of depression, hypothyroidism, and increased susceptibility to viral infections, could reasonably be assessed for selenium deficiency, especially if they live in an area where the soil is low in selenium.
>
> About zinc: Most people fail to ingest even the RDA, but stress increases the demand well above the RDA. I *know* I don't use zinc efficiently, because my sense of taste and smell often decline. Zinc is a key component of the sensory mechanism of taste and smell. When my sense of taste goes down, I reach for the zinc. For some reason, most references in Pubmed do not include abstracts that I can post, but here's what I can find:
>
> J Affect Disord 1994 Jun;31(2):135-40
>
> Hypozincemia in depression.
>
> Maes M, D'Haese PC, Scharpe S, D'Hondt P, Cosyns P, De Broe ME.
>
> Department of Psychiatry, Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, OH.
>
> This study investigates serum levels of zinc in 48 unipolar depressed subjects (16 minor, 14 simple major and 18 melancholic subjects) and 32 normal volunteers, and the relationships between zincemia and plasma neopterin levels, postdexamethasone adrenocorticotropic hormone and cortisol values, and anorexia-weight loss. Serum zinc levels were significantly lower in major depressed subjects than in normal controls, whereas minor depressed subjects showed intermediate values. There were significant negative correlations between serum zinc, and severity of depression and plasma neopterin concentrations. No significant relationships between zincemia and either postdexamethasone hormone values or anorexia/weight loss were found. The findings suggest that hypozincemia in major depression may be related to activation of cell-mediated immunity in that illness.
>
> Biol Psychiatry 1997 Sep 1;42(5):349-58
>
> Lower serum zinc in major depression is a sensitive marker of treatment resistance and of the immune/inflammatory response in that illness.
>
> Maes M, Vandoolaeghe E, Neels H, Demedts P, Wauters A, Meltzer HY, Altamura C, Desnyder R.
>
> Clinical Research Center Mental Health, University Department of Psychiatry, Antwerp, Belgium.
>
> The aims of the present study were to examine i) serum zinc (Zn) and copper (Cu) in treatment resistant depression (TRD); ii) the effects of subchronic antidepressant therapy on these trace elements; and iii) the relationships between serum Zn and Cu and immune/inflammatory markers. Serum Zn was significantly lower in TRD than in normal controls. There was a significant inverse correlation between baseline serum Zn and staging of depression based on severity of prior treatment resistance. There were no significant effects of antidepressive treatment on serum Zn, whereas serum Cu was significantly reduced. There were highly significant correlations between serum Zn and the CD4+/CD8+ T-cell ratio (negative), and total serum protein, serum albumin, and transferrin (all positive). The results suggest that lower serum Zn is a marker of TRD and of the immune/inflammatory response in depression. It is suggested that treatment resistance may bear a relationship with the immune/inflammatory alterations in major depression.
>
> I don't think I need to talk about magnesium, considering the number of recent threads on the subject.
Posted by Caleb462 on May 27, 2003, at 0:31:50
In reply to Re: Success and Supplements: Larry, others? » Larry Hoover, posted by samplemethod on May 26, 2003, at 22:41:56
> Hi,
>
> I was just wondering why you say a trial of magnesium Lar? I dunno much about Mg in relation to depression and anx, whats the basic run down?
>
> anyway I bought 500mg tabs of chel mg yesterday
> and sel yeast
>
> still need to get back on the vit c, vit e and zinc.
>
> cheers...Here ya go...
http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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