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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 22:11:04
In reply to It can't be patented, samE is also as effective, posted by katekite on June 9, 2002, at 20:22:04
this board gets swamped with the frontline which is prescribed meds..so you can't discuss other chemical methods without it getting drowned by AD threads..like when you go to psychobabble faith you can see in one page a good cross section of whats happening but here its 95% prescription chemicals so when hooking in you can't get any picture of whats being discussed in the way of diet, non brand drugs etc before its off the page...
Posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 22:21:28
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ? » omega man, posted by judy1 on June 9, 2002, at 20:06:00
thats a great site...its a pity things have got to this stage where all that has to have its own place....it is after all the same problem....human mental health...
hope you take a tape recorder to that seminar..it looks really good...I had no idea that the gut was a brain that could operate on its own yet has all the same neurotransmitters...
so thats why all those serotonin drugs make me feel so sick...and why is this info not availible to everybody..
because the systems we live in seem to do that..and when I see how much good sense is in that site and yet how marginalized it looks...it makes me really sad...
from the way I see things which is quite fresh..some sort of political will needs to be in place to stop profit playing such a role in what dictates a valid treatment...
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on June 10, 2002, at 2:14:53
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ? » omega man, posted by judy1 on June 9, 2002, at 20:06:00
In the only published article I could find on omega-3 in Bipolar Disorder (Stoll,May 99,Archives of General Psychiatry)the dose used was 9.6g daily- that is the total of EPA and DHA.In practice doses of 5-10g seem to be used in that condition.
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 8:22:47
In reply to omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:32:36
I was feeling hopeless. After having dealt with some horrid side effects on traditional AD's, and still having problems that need to be treated, I was feeling that I'd be stuck to a these neurotoxic drugs for life.
Now I'm hopeful that I'll be able to get off and try something more natural and less toxic . .
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 8:30:42
In reply to omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:32:36
At what dose are Omega 3's generally effective for depression/anxiety?
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 13:02:14
In reply to at what dose is it effective? » omega man, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 8:30:42
I find it varies according to how I feel..
in November when My seasonal depression is holding me in my bed..i'll absolutey need the capsules (standard 180epa/120dha) in my pocket, taking one every three/four hours just to keep my head feeling fresh, stable and aware, and two at night to help deep sleep and feel great when I wake up...
at the moment summertime..I just take two at night pre-sleep and one with every proper meal usually at night..but I'll just be slightly dull if I don't take them with food in the day..not ill..
also if i'm taking other drugs..cannibas, E or whatever for days out, i'll use the oil to help protect my brain from the extra stress those drugs put on you...the same applies to AD's I can't handle them without some neural protection...
Don't stop AD's and switch due to my influence please...omega 3 along with red meat can help Ad's work even better..so you could take less..
The only line between all the chemicals seems to be one of medical responsibility and vested interest. I mean I might get a bit heavy about how prescribed drugs get the number one say and thats sort of political I suppose..but I'm just as glad to have prozac and effexor and buspar and nitrazepam, clopizone, losec etc etc when I need them....those drugs are absolutely specific and its lucky we have them....
Personally I find AD's too heavy on my guts, for regular use and I just found out its because our stomach has its own "brain" with 100 million neurons operating as an almost independent system (you can cut the nerve from stomach to brain and the stomach will still produce the same transmitters serotonin etc independant of the brain)...maybe an alternative delivery method would stop all the side effects ..
AD's were'nt tested on anything other than the effect on disected rat brains..the scientists did'nt realise they were messsing up the quite different agenda of the stomach "brain"..
sometimes I think I have too much to say..but fascinating is what I thought..
Posted by JonW on June 10, 2002, at 13:32:57
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ? » judy1, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 22:21:28
> thats a great site...its a pity things have got to this stage where all that has to have its own place....it is after all the same problem....human mental health...
I have to say this is not a good site. The fact that they are selling so much stuff should make you skeptical from the second the page loads.
Skepticism, and logical scientific thinking are healthy, you know?
The articles on this page make outrageous claims like they know what causes depression and how anti-depressant drugs relieve depression! Neither of these things are known... and you have to be an illogical person not to realise how biased these articles are when reading them! I know it's tempting to believe in things like this when "prozac" isn't working for you, but it's in your best interest to be guided by science and not your emotions. The fact that this page links to www.prozactruth.com should turn anyone of a sound mind away!! It's tempting to believe in something new and different, but first demand the truth. Demand the data! Demand data from multiple large controlled studies!
Not to say there are not things that should be ruled out when treating depression, because this is very important. However, that is very different than making the claim that the measures used to rule out depression, explain depression! Nutritional deficiencies, food allergies, selenium toxicity, etc. are all things you may want to rule out when diagnosing "depression" but should not be called the actual *cause* of depression -- real depression. There may very well be people with so-called "depression" on "prozac" who simply suffer from selenium toxicity, but this should not be interpreted as "prozac" not treating the root cause of depression. This should be interpreted as "prozac" not treating the root cause of selenium toxicity at best.
> hope you take a tape recorder to that seminar..it looks really good...I had no idea that the gut was a brain that could operate on its own yet has all the same neurotransmitters...
I hope she also takes a gun, people like this should not reproduce :) In all seriousness, I think we should in fact be open to everything and certain things like omega3 appear to have promise, but we should always demand hard data on efficacy, safety, and tolerability.
> from the way I see things which is quite fresh..some sort of political will needs to be in place to stop profit playing such a role in what dictates a valid treatment...
Until there is evidence that natural remedies can be as effective as "prozac" there really is no harm in the drug business being driven by profits. In fact, I think that largely benefits us and I wouldn't have it any other way. However, certain practices do seem shady and negatively affect us. There may need to be some changes, but as I see it, it should always be a profit driven business.
Jon
Posted by Ed O`Flaherty on June 10, 2002, at 16:10:50
In reply to Re: at what dose is it effective? » Bookgurl99, posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 13:02:14
Have a look at my web site at www.omega3.20megsfree.com for some suggestions regarding dosage.
> I find it varies according to how I feel..
>
> in November when My seasonal depression is holding me in my bed..i'll absolutey need the capsules (standard 180epa/120dha) in my pocket, taking one every three/four hours just to keep my head feeling fresh, stable and aware, and two at night to help deep sleep and feel great when I wake up...
>
> at the moment summertime..I just take two at night pre-sleep and one with every proper meal usually at night..but I'll just be slightly dull if I don't take them with food in the day..not ill..
>
> also if i'm taking other drugs..cannibas, E or whatever for days out, i'll use the oil to help protect my brain from the extra stress those drugs put on you...the same applies to AD's I can't handle them without some neural protection...
>
> Don't stop AD's and switch due to my influence please...omega 3 along with red meat can help Ad's work even better..so you could take less..
>
> The only line between all the chemicals seems to be one of medical responsibility and vested interest. I mean I might get a bit heavy about how prescribed drugs get the number one say and thats sort of political I suppose..but I'm just as glad to have prozac and effexor and buspar and nitrazepam, clopizone, losec etc etc when I need them....those drugs are absolutely specific and its lucky we have them....
>
> Personally I find AD's too heavy on my guts, for regular use and I just found out its because our stomach has its own "brain" with 100 million neurons operating as an almost independent system (you can cut the nerve from stomach to brain and the stomach will still produce the same transmitters serotonin etc independant of the brain)...maybe an alternative delivery method would stop all the side effects ..
>
> AD's were'nt tested on anything other than the effect on disected rat brains..the scientists did'nt realise they were messsing up the quite different agenda of the stomach "brain"..
>
> sometimes I think I have too much to say..but fascinating is what I thought..
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 22:32:26
In reply to omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:32:36
Posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 23:43:54
In reply to In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 10, 2002, at 13:32:57
wow that rant was really heated !! perhaps you miss a subtext that goes through most of what I write...that is balance..I actually have quite a balanced view...that is psycho-babble medcation is too balanced in the direction of profit driven remedies and so when this site came along i'm so glad because there are so many truths that would'nt be seen because theres no profit it in them...
I really don't get why you, or how you could belive profit is a good indicator of whats right treatments...its an indicator of what makes profit..with psychobiology being such big and vital research ..there is no place for remedies which can't be patented and controlled...
don't you think thats really worrying ?
Posted by omega man on June 11, 2002, at 0:35:01
In reply to Do you know anything about omega-3's in epilepsy? (nm), posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 22:32:26
sorry not a thing...but it would make sense that it would help..have'nt read or heard any research being tried..
Posted by jay on June 11, 2002, at 1:11:52
In reply to Re: Do you know anything about omega-3's in epilepsy? » Bookgurl99, posted by omega man on June 11, 2002, at 0:35:01
> sorry not a thing...but it would make sense that it would help..have'nt read or heard any research being tried..
Actually, there are cautions around using Evening Primrose Oil and seizures (Don't have the url..) I have also heard that Flax seed can trigger mania in BiPolar disorder. Do a search for these, and you will find the info. These are very powerful drugs when taken in high doses, and people should use the same caution as when taking any drug. I have had some very negative experience with Flax taken in high doses, a very aggitated dysphoria.
Jay
Posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 5:22:48
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » JonW, posted by omega man on June 10, 2002, at 23:43:54
> wow that rant was really heated !! perhaps you miss a subtext that goes through most of what I write...that is balance..I actually have quite a balanced view...that is psycho-babble medcation
As you know, we are all a bunch of "loonies" here so when we try to discuss something it often comes out as a heated rant and I am no exception, of course :) Some things could have been taken personally, and I really didn't want that but instead was trying to make a point. I apologize if I've offended you.
>is too balanced in the direction of profit driven remedies and so when this site came along i'm so glad because there are so many truths that would'nt be seen because theres no profit it in them...
That's just it, where's the truth in something like www.prozactruth.com? Where are the large multiple controlled studies? I can certainly understand far fewer studies having been conducted on herbs because they cannot be patented, but that doesn't give someone a free license to make claims about their efficacy.
> I really don't get why you, or how you could belive profit is a good indicator of whats right treatments...its an indicator of what makes profit..with psychobiology being such big and vital research ..there is no place for remedies which can't be patented and controlled...
The drugs we use are in use because they are effective and it is not cheap to develop and get these drugs approved. The drug comapnies need an incentive to develop new and better drugs.
> don't you think thats really worrying ?
Only if these natural remedies were more effective than the ones science develops and there is no data that says that is the case, and in fact, data that says the opposite is true.
Absense of evidence is certainly not evidence of absense, but like I said before, that dosn't give someone the license to make claims of clinical efficacy. While a profit driven system may leave herbs untested, a profit driven system has developed some amazing drugs that do some amazing things. If it weren't profit driven, how do you propose we pay for this research? Last I checked, sales for natural remedies weren't too shaby. So maybe if the natural remedy companies weren't so profit driven themselves they would pay for large controlled studies of their herbs for the benefit of the consumer.
If there weren't a patent for new drugs, why develop them? You may dislike a profit driven system, but unless you dislike new drugs, how do you answer this question?
Jon
Posted by johnj on June 11, 2002, at 10:35:37
In reply to Do you know anything about omega-3's in epilepsy? (nm), posted by Bookgurl99 on June 10, 2002, at 22:32:26
Have you looked up epilepsy and the amino acid taurine? I am looking at it for anxiety and will talk to my doc on Monday about it. I remember seeing something about it related to epilepsy.
take care
johnj
Posted by Cam W. on June 11, 2002, at 11:12:01
In reply to In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 10, 2002, at 13:32:57
I am with Jon on this one (well except maybe the gun part). Show me proof, not testimonals. Hell, pay anyone enough money (or give them enough free product) and they will say anything.
There are far too many charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and out-and-out con artists who refuse to actually work for a living and would rather scam people and steal their money; then laugh all the way to the bank.
Conventional medicine isn't perfect, but it is tested and those tests are replicable by others. The very nature of the course of most mental disorders are punctuated by periods of alternating sickness and remission (esp. something like bipolar disorder). Remissions are mostly unpredictable and can be brought on by a change in attitude.
So, my question to everyone is, is it the snake oil (eg pig vitamins, relative low doses of omega-3s, laying of hands, spiritual experience, etc.) that has "cured" the consumer; or is it an improved mental set (ie. a subconscious unconditional belief in these untested treatments) causing the remission?
I guess that time will tell (ie when belief in the product starts to flag - one runs out of money - and a relapse occurs).
It is the proliferation and sale of these unproven therapies, and the gullibility of some people to embrace any hope, grasp at any straw, in order to acheive "normality" (whatever the hell that is) that has resulted in my loss in faith in "humanity".
I am going to "stay in my own movie". Only I can cause my own happiness; be it during a depressive episode or during remission. I have found a combination of "proven" medication which works for me, at this point in my life. These medications are not perfect, but they have been tested and their effects are predictable. When I work with them (as opposed to just taking them and hoping that they make me "normal") I find that I can live quite comfortably in this bizarre world.
- Cam
Posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 5:22:48
Hell, if any one doesn't think that alternative medicines, herbal remedies, & different supplements aren't profit driven too, they're not very aware of how this system & its economics work. I worked in the health food business, managing one of a small chain of health food stores - *very* profit driven (sell the customer the most expensive brand by telling him it's the most effective, blah, blah...). The hypocrisy bothered me & if you don't think it's behind all such enterprises, you're looking at it with rose-tinted glasses.
I've got enough of a background in biology & sciences to know whether something sounds right or not. If you read claims carefully, you'll see how carefully so many of these claims nicely skirt around stating facts.
Sure, you may have well-meaning individuals who really believe that their own goals are to help others, but you can get that in any organisation from religion, to politics, to schooling, to medicine but the bottom line is "if it doesn't make good money, it'll fail".
So with anything, you should ask for proof to decide whether to trust it & give it a try or not. Is it backed with hard facts & solid information that is logical and/or sensible? If you don't know enough to make a decision, educate yourself.
Posted by Cam W. on June 11, 2002, at 13:38:18
In reply to Profit Driven Industries, posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
Posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 14:17:04
In reply to Profit Driven Industries, posted by IsoM on June 11, 2002, at 12:59:05
As always IsoM you have a beautiful way with words and said it much better than I did! :)
Jon
Posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » IsoM, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 14:17:04
I appreciate yours & Cam's remarks. I can get on a real rant about these sort of things but try to keep it under control. Right now what I'm working at - gardening & its paraphenelia in a garden centre is work I enjoy. When customers come in asking for pesticides, I have to serve them but they get a small speech (if they're willing to hear it) on the dangers & safe alternatives available. Seeing the Canadian government is phasing out a lot of poisons in the next few years, the chain store I work for is now "talking" the safe alternatives. It's not because they carein the least, it's because the alternatives are where the money will be.
I will tell any customer that's ready to buy something 'cause it looks pretty or seems like a good idea if it's cheaply made or won't grow. One of these days, I'll get in trouble from superiors with my attitude but in the meantime the customers are grateful & I may be building up a loyal clientele of my own. I hate power/money driven greed that runs this world now & am not afraid to state it.
Posted by JonW on June 12, 2002, at 1:53:14
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » JonW, posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
> I will tell any customer that's ready to buy something 'cause it looks pretty or seems like a good idea if it's cheaply made or won't grow. One of these days, I'll get in trouble from superiors with my attitude but in the meantime the customers are grateful & I may be building up a loyal clientele of my own. I hate power/money driven greed that runs this world now & am not afraid to state it.
IsoM,
I was a computer technician and sales person a couple of jobs ago at a local mom & pop shop and had similar experiences to this. I remember telling my customers how it made no sense to buy the most expensive part in many cases. There were several times when a competing processor, for example, beat out the latest one from Intel and at a less expensive price. And a couple of times this was even true not using the latest one from the competetor. Anyway, this type of thing was true for all types of hardware. On the software side, I would take note what reasons customers were bringing back their new computers for repair. In the future, I would then build them so customers were less likely to encounter the same problems. I would also educate the customers on how to keep from causing the problems themselves. In certain cases, I would create icons for the customer to double-click on when they encountered certain problems and this would run utilities I created to fix these problems and keep them from having to bring their computer in. Anyway, I geared what I did toward the customer and my boss hated that! I mean, he also loved me because I was one of the only people who would put up with him... but the way he saw it, if the customer is happy they are not in the store and therefore not spending money. He was ok being the one that caused their unhappiness. We also had a bar in the back and we were drunk a lot of the time, so maybe this explains his view on things :)
Jon
Posted by Cam W. on June 12, 2002, at 10:18:13
In reply to Re: Profit Driven Industries » JonW, posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 0:45:49
IsoM - Yeah, it's the same in pharmacy. People think that OTC cold medications will "cure" a cold, but they only treat the symptoms. Very often people will come in and say that they are starting to get a cold and need to get better by the weekend because they have a wedding, party, function, etc. I always say that I can cover up the cold, but I can't cure it, and since the cold is only starting (ie. with very few symptoms) there really isn't much I can recommend.
The only way to really get rid of a cold is to let is run it's course (on average, 5 to 10 days, depending on the bug). A lot of non-dehydrating liquids can help you pee off the bug, but outside of that the body has to fight it. Sometimes a cold will disappear before it really starts (hurray immune system) but this is not because of the medication a person has taken for it.
(Yeah, yeah .... echinecea is sorta active, but not active enough to pay the price that they are asking for it)
The same is true for weight loss schemes. Last week I had a lady come in and ask me about apple cider vinegar. She had read on the Web about how great it was and wanted my advise. I had done a search on it a couple of years ago for a pdoc (efficacy, drug interactions, mechanism if action, etc.) and could really only find testimonials, no hard science (maybe it works minimally by slightly acidifying the urine).
I told the lady the lady that if she wanted to lose weight that output had to be greaer than input (not entirely true, but a good start) and she looked at me like I was stoopid. She shook her head and took the bottle of pills to checkout anyway. Why did she bother coming to me in the first place if she had all the answers.
Marketing is powerful (and scary). The more convincing the advertisement, the better something sells. People will buy products they don't need, just because the ads tell them to. I am sure that I am guilty of this, too (example - I bought an IMac as my first computer, as I was ... er, am ... fairly computer illiterate, and I was told that Macs are idiot proof - not for this idiot they aren't; and I cannot do some of the things that an IBM or such does).
No wonder third world countries hate us Westerners ... they've been sold on the hype that is inaccessible to them. - Cam
P.S. BTW - That DDT that I made in first-year Inorganic Chem. really did stop ants from coming into the basement suite I was living in at the time (couldn't tell you about the birds or cats, though).
Posted by omega man on June 12, 2002, at 19:52:55
In reply to Re: In Defense of Science » omega man, posted by JonW on June 11, 2002, at 5:22:48
Idealism..i'm prone to it...my ideal would be that some benevolent group, government organized would have the attitude..that the whole health picture is the "prime directive" and profit has little to do with it.
I did'nt take offence at anything you said..I just don't think profit as an end is healthy way to proceed scientifically on whole...its not good science...
I think this deserves a thread about how drugs get developed..
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
In reply to omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by omega man on June 9, 2002, at 14:32:36
The latest (Aug 2002) issue of Psychology Today, page 18
has an article on David Horrobin, M.D., who believes that much of
mental illness, including schizophrenia, comes from problems in the
synapses that convey neurotransmitters. He believes that many
symptoms are due to a shortage of arachidonic acid, which is
anti-inflammatory.His treatment for this shortage? Omega-3 EPA.
According to the article, Horribin is now also the chairman of Laxdale Ltd.,
a Scottish biotech company that makes EPA and other psychotropic substances.
Check it out --
Posted by IsoM on June 12, 2002, at 21:14:32
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
Do you want to check that over again for me? I don't have access to that issue of Psychology Today. Reason I'm asking is that arachidonic acid is supposed to be very PRO-inflammatory, not anti-inflammatory. It's part of the omega-6 prostaglandin pathway. Was that a typing error or something?
Posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 22:00:53
In reply to Re: omega 3 getting overlooked by industry ?, posted by Bookgurl99 on June 12, 2002, at 20:31:12
Sorry, you're right -- Arachidonic acid is considered to be a participant in inflammation. Perhaps Psychology Today meant to call AA pro-inflammatory, not anti-inflammatory.
Nontheless, the study on treating schizophrenics with Omega-3's is interesting. Here's one using Laxdale Limited oil at http://jerrycott.com/user/peet.pdf
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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