Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 94861

Shown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.

 

bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out.

Posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54


Anyone hear of allergic depression/mania?

I have a very interesting theory as to
why Serzone held up as an AD for me.

Ok, how does this sound:

1) 3 yrs ago I developed 1st signs of serious
allergies in Austin, this was 6 months
before my serious mood problem. I also developed
inflammatory diseases.

2) I always got weird anti-depressant responses.
On Zoloft, my emotions would
go numb but then I would go manic and then my
emotions would go numb. On wellbutrin I was ok
but then I would go manic and then my emotions
would go numb. On Lamictal, I'm OK at 150 mg,
but when I go to 300 mg my emotions go numb.
Also, I always get a bad pressure in my head with the
numbing. I find a large dose of an anti-histamine
can relieve the pressure if I get "stuck".

3) On Serzone, I was OK??? I never got "stuck".
I got an AD response, but I was overwhelmingly
drowsy and had to quit the AD. No mania.

Ok, after reading up on how histamine regulates
neurotransmitters, trying to figure out how
I can feel so fantastic after trying a large
dose of the anti-histamine chlorpheniramine.
I just found by accident that this particular
anti-histamine works well at times.

Now here is what the histamine receptors do
There is an interesting feedback loop, look at H3
(I'm still looking into this more):

H1: Elicit increases in phosphoinositol hydrolysis;

H2: Mediated through increases in cyclic AMP; antagonists used to decrease gastric acid secretion.

H3: predominantly presynaptic, feedback inhibition of histamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, acetylcholine release. Possibly related to decreased intracellular calcium.

What is interesting is that there is a link between
serotonin and histamine production that I am still trying
to understand.

So what if that H3 receptor got stuck ? that could
explain that bizzarro world I get into where my emotions
go numb and I get bad pressure in my head and a whopper
anti-histamine makes it go away.

Klonopin and Topamax I have found ease the myofacial pain,
perhaps they (GabaA) regulate the histamine feedback somehow
too.

Why is Serzone interesting? It is interesting
because one of its metabolites is a direct serotonin agonist.
It is called mCPP. Does this mean that Serzone can "break"
a messy malfunctioning feedback loop where histamine is
over or underproduced due to the feedback inhibition?

If this is true it has serious ramifications for me.
It means I can use Serzone as an adjunct to get my
medicines to work. The mCPP metabolite would not be hurt
by the feedback and maybe this creates some kind of control
into the loop? Does this theory sound nuts?.

Thoughts?

Anyways I should be thoroughly checked for
allergies. Austin is called the allergy capitol
of the world.

-John


 

lithium vs. histamine H1 receptors ??

Posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:25:35

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54


Its my understanding that lithium somehow
moderates inositol messanger systems

Most selective antihistamines block the H1
receptor which is doing the follow:

> H1: Elicit increases in phosphoinositol hydrolysis;

Is there a connection?

Does this imply I should be on lithium, which
I have shunned to date , arghh?

-John

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2

Posted by christophrejmc on February 20, 2002, at 21:52:18

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54

Have you read the studies using high-dose H2 antagonists (usually famotidine because of its lack of drug-drug interactions) for mood disorders? It's supposed to work quite well for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia (and, I believe, similar symptoms seen in autistic spectrum disorders). I wonder what would happen if they used an H2 antagonist that passed the blood brain barrier. Please keep me (us) updated on what you find; it's very interesting!

-Chris

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » christophrejmc

Posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 23:33:58

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2, posted by christophrejmc on February 20, 2002, at 21:52:18


Thanks for the information, I'll be sure
to look into. It seems as though I have an almost
"schizophrenic" switch from a positive to negative
(emotional blunting) psychosis when I got anti-depressants
to work. I mainly use mood stabilizers now, but I still
haven't gotton a totally stabilized remission.

I think the roots of my bipolar disorder may be in
PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder). There are a lot
of implications in dysregulations in how the feedback
of noradrenaline autoreceptors work and also how the
noradrenaline system talks to the serotonin system.

Thanks for your interest.

-John

> Have you read the studies using high-dose H2 antagonists (usually famotidine because of its lack of drug-drug interactions) for mood disorders? It's supposed to work quite well for the negative symptoms of schizophrenia (and, I believe, similar symptoms seen in autistic spectrum disorders). I wonder what would happen if they used an H2 antagonist that passed the blood brain barrier. Please keep me (us) updated on what you find; it's very interesting!
>
> -Chris

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2

Posted by Ritch on February 21, 2002, at 0:19:48

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54

>
> Anyone hear of allergic depression/mania?
>
> I have a very interesting theory as to
> why Serzone held up as an AD for me.
>
> Ok, how does this sound:
>
> 1) 3 yrs ago I developed 1st signs of serious
> allergies in Austin, this was 6 months
> before my serious mood problem. I also developed
> inflammatory diseases.
>
> 2) I always got weird anti-depressant responses.
> On Zoloft, my emotions would
> go numb but then I would go manic and then my
> emotions would go numb. On wellbutrin I was ok
> but then I would go manic and then my emotions
> would go numb. On Lamictal, I'm OK at 150 mg,
> but when I go to 300 mg my emotions go numb.
> Also, I always get a bad pressure in my head with the
> numbing. I find a large dose of an anti-histamine
> can relieve the pressure if I get "stuck".
>
> 3) On Serzone, I was OK??? I never got "stuck".
> I got an AD response, but I was overwhelmingly
> drowsy and had to quit the AD. No mania.
>
> Ok, after reading up on how histamine regulates
> neurotransmitters, trying to figure out how
> I can feel so fantastic after trying a large
> dose of the anti-histamine chlorpheniramine.
> I just found by accident that this particular
> anti-histamine works well at times.
>
> Now here is what the histamine receptors do
> There is an interesting feedback loop, look at H3
> (I'm still looking into this more):
>
> H1: Elicit increases in phosphoinositol hydrolysis;
>
> H2: Mediated through increases in cyclic AMP; antagonists used to decrease gastric acid secretion.
>
> H3: predominantly presynaptic, feedback inhibition of histamine, norepinephrine, serotonin, acetylcholine release. Possibly related to decreased intracellular calcium.
>
> What is interesting is that there is a link between
> serotonin and histamine production that I am still trying
> to understand.
>
> So what if that H3 receptor got stuck ? that could
> explain that bizzarro world I get into where my emotions
> go numb and I get bad pressure in my head and a whopper
> anti-histamine makes it go away.
>
> Klonopin and Topamax I have found ease the myofacial pain,
> perhaps they (GabaA) regulate the histamine feedback somehow
> too.
>
> Why is Serzone interesting? It is interesting
> because one of its metabolites is a direct serotonin agonist.
> It is called mCPP. Does this mean that Serzone can "break"
> a messy malfunctioning feedback loop where histamine is
> over or underproduced due to the feedback inhibition?
>
> If this is true it has serious ramifications for me.
> It means I can use Serzone as an adjunct to get my
> medicines to work. The mCPP metabolite would not be hurt
> by the feedback and maybe this creates some kind of control
> into the loop? Does this theory sound nuts?.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Anyways I should be thoroughly checked for
> allergies. Austin is called the allergy capitol
> of the world.
>
> -John

John, I believe that the environment-full of allergens and pollen and negative/positive ions, increased/decreased sunlight/temperature/humidity, etc. have a definite (e)affect on people (not just biplolars).

I would just go by the "what works" rule. If chlorpheniramine maleate does the trick-then take it. I get dystonia-akathisia probs with standard SSRI's. I notice that if I take 12.5mg of Benadyl twice daily I sleep better and have reduced probs with that. I think you are probably onto something, but I don't think I can elucidate any more light than you already have shed.

As far as "receptor specific" meds go-I also have been intrigued with the idea of a selective 5-HT3 antagonist. I have all of these horrible IBS symptoms that are aggravated immensely by SSRI's. I was wanting to see if anyone had been given SSRI and been given Ondansetron (selective 5-HT3 antagonist) to reduce some of the sfx of the SSRI. I know that the Ondansentron is used primarily for chemotherapy induced nausea/vomiting. I was given that post-op for the same thing (thyroid surgery), and it worked great. More ideas..

Mitch
Mitch

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2

Posted by Cam W. on February 21, 2002, at 8:20:08

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54

John - You have to be careful when reducing neurotransmitter systems and look at them separately from each other (as well as their roles in different systems). If you look at a basic 3D antihistamine molecule, it contains the basic structure of many antidepressants (seen easiest with some of the TCAs) and antipsychotics (both typical and atypical, if memory serves me). You may be getting some effect from chlorpheniramine (H2 antagonist).

Over the years, I have read a few reports of high dose famotidine (Pepcid™ - H1 antagonist) being somewhat effective for the symptoms of psychosis in schizophrenia. I have talked to a couple of psychiatrists who have tried it in patients (approx. 80mg to 120mg per day), but without success.

I had asked researchers who were touting H1 antagonists (eg. nizatidine, cimetidine) as potential inhibitors of weight gain in those who were using olanzapine (Zyprexa™) if the effects of H1 antagonists in this regard was related to any antipsychotic activity. The answers I got were, "I doubt it", to "The H1 antagonists don't work in preventing weight gain".

I guess what my main point is, is that one cannot look at a single neurotransmitter system and come to any meaningly conclusions about any disorder. I have just read a paper that convincingly showed that depression may be primarily a maladjustment (dysregulation?) of the noradrenergic system. It gave several theories on how SSRIs and other ADs affect NE neurotransmission in round about ways.

- Cam

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out.

Posted by JohnX2 on February 21, 2002, at 12:36:19

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54

Thanks for all the feedback!

Now what do you think about this. This is
long, so bear with me, but I think a dysfunctional
noradrenaline system from PTSD can explain my atypical
mania/bipolar.

Going back to my thoughts about post traumatic
stress disorder. No one in my family has bipolar
symptoms. There is depression, but no bipolar.
I went through about a 3 year period of substantial
durress during a difficult time in my family and
after this I had fairly classical PTSD symptoms
(flashbacks, etc). When I first got an AD response
to St. John's Wort it stuck for 3 days which was
the longest response to date. When it worked I
had an enormous emotional outporing and flashbacks
to memories from my childhood. After 3 days the
medicine did a weird thing and put me into this
emotionally numb state with bad pressure headache
and jaw tension. When i discontinued it I had
panic attacks for 1 week.

From what I understand about PTSD there is a lot
of data to show that the noradrenergic alpha-2
receptors become dysfunctional. Their affinity
states (H/L) become skewed towards being high.
That being said they are easily whip-sawed.
There are a lot of thoughts PTSD depression is
very difficult to treat because the feedback
mechanisms involved in the noradrenaline system
are really messed up and difficult to control
with typical medicines. Some people postulate
that better approaches maybe be partial a2a
agonists.

There is an interesting coupling between the
noradrenaline system and the serotonin system.
The part of the noradrenaline system that gets
goofed up from stress is the locus coerulus.
Norepinephrine migrates from the locus coerulus
to receptors on the raphe serotonin system
(a target for SSRIs). There are alpha-1 and
alpha-2 noradrenaline receptors on the serotonin
neurons. The alpha-1 receptors increase firing
of the serotonin neuron and the alpha-2 receptors
at the dendrites of the serotonin neurons act
to release serotonin.

So its thought that in PTSD that the locus
coeurlus can be hyperactive since the alpha-2
adrenoreceptors can easily become chronically
overly downregulated. Ultimately either more or
less NA would migrate to the serotonin system a2 receptors
and overly downregulate or upregulate them.
This could diminished or hyperactive serotonin
release. You would be "stuck". So I'll shoot
from the hip and guess that somehow I get stuck
because serotonin release is diminished as the
alpha-2 heteroreceptors are downregulated and
the locus coerulus becomes depleted of noradrenaline.

Maybe Im firing to much from the hip here. But
in the case of Serzone, you would not get "stuck"
because one of the metabolites is mCPP, a direct
serotonin agonist and hence the medicine may get
around a dysfunctional cross-talk with the
noradrenergic locus coerulus system.

Another thing I once tried inadvertly was taking
Manerix while also taking Tizanidine. Tizanidine
is a partial alpha-2 agonist, hence a buffer
for goofy alpha-2 receptors. Normally when I
take Manerix it does not do much, a little anxiety
relief is all. When I took it with Tizanidine I
felt a substantial flushing in my face and it was
very similar to starting up Serzone, plus my
depression improved, weird. So I'm thinking
that the Tizanidine by acting as a noradrenergic
agonist is also braking a dysfunctional loop.

Anyways, it has been thought that Clonidine
or Tenex may be useful for PTSD. I got Tizandine
which is a cleaner version of Clonidine, from
a neurologist who thought it would cure my head
pain. The Tizanidine is the only medicine besides
Serzone, Topamax, and Klonopin to help alleviate
my myofacial pain.

-John


 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out.

Posted by JohnX2 on February 21, 2002, at 12:45:21

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 21, 2002, at 12:36:19


I had a brain fart on my serotonin alpha-2 thought.
The alpha-2 hetero receptors located at the dentrites
of the serotonin neurons diminish serotonin release.

So if you held it constant with a partial
agonist like Tizanidine and took an MAOI inhibitor
you may get more serotonin release. This would
be the case if you went with a full blown alpha-2
anatagonist. Its funny though, because I have
tried Manerix with Remeron and it didn't give
me that serotonin flush.

My other thought was just that the Alpha-1
antagonist in Serzone is stablizing things.

-John


>
>
> Thanks for all the feedback!
>
> Now what do you think about this. This is
> long, so bear with me, but I think a dysfunctional
> noradrenaline system from PTSD can explain my atypical
> mania/bipolar.
>
> Going back to my thoughts about post traumatic
> stress disorder. No one in my family has bipolar
> symptoms. There is depression, but no bipolar.
> I went through about a 3 year period of substantial
> durress during a difficult time in my family and
> after this I had fairly classical PTSD symptoms
> (flashbacks, etc). When I first got an AD response
> to St. John's Wort it stuck for 3 days which was
> the longest response to date. When it worked I
> had an enormous emotional outporing and flashbacks
> to memories from my childhood. After 3 days the
> medicine did a weird thing and put me into this
> emotionally numb state with bad pressure headache
> and jaw tension. When i discontinued it I had
> panic attacks for 1 week.
>
> From what I understand about PTSD there is a lot
> of data to show that the noradrenergic alpha-2
> receptors become dysfunctional. Their affinity
> states (H/L) become skewed towards being high.
> That being said they are easily whip-sawed.
> There are a lot of thoughts PTSD depression is
> very difficult to treat because the feedback
> mechanisms involved in the noradrenaline system
> are really messed up and difficult to control
> with typical medicines. Some people postulate
> that better approaches maybe be partial a2a
> agonists.
>
> There is an interesting coupling between the
> noradrenaline system and the serotonin system.
> The part of the noradrenaline system that gets
> goofed up from stress is the locus coerulus.
> Norepinephrine migrates from the locus coerulus
> to receptors on the raphe serotonin system
> (a target for SSRIs). There are alpha-1 and
> alpha-2 noradrenaline receptors on the serotonin
> neurons. The alpha-1 receptors increase firing
> of the serotonin neuron and the alpha-2 receptors
> at the dendrites of the serotonin neurons act
> to release serotonin.
>
> So its thought that in PTSD that the locus
> coeurlus can be hyperactive since the alpha-2
> adrenoreceptors can easily become chronically
> overly downregulated. Ultimately either more or
> less NA would migrate to the serotonin system a2 receptors
> and overly downregulate or upregulate them.
> This could diminished or hyperactive serotonin
> release. You would be "stuck". So I'll shoot
> from the hip and guess that somehow I get stuck
> because serotonin release is diminished as the
> alpha-2 heteroreceptors are downregulated and
> the locus coerulus becomes depleted of noradrenaline.
>
> Maybe Im firing to much from the hip here. But
> in the case of Serzone, you would not get "stuck"
> because one of the metabolites is mCPP, a direct
> serotonin agonist and hence the medicine may get
> around a dysfunctional cross-talk with the
> noradrenergic locus coerulus system.
>
> Another thing I once tried inadvertly was taking
> Manerix while also taking Tizanidine. Tizanidine
> is a partial alpha-2 agonist, hence a buffer
> for goofy alpha-2 receptors. Normally when I
> take Manerix it does not do much, a little anxiety
> relief is all. When I took it with Tizanidine I
> felt a substantial flushing in my face and it was
> very similar to starting up Serzone, plus my
> depression improved, weird. So I'm thinking
> that the Tizanidine by acting as a noradrenergic
> agonist is also braking a dysfunctional loop.
>
> Anyways, it has been thought that Clonidine
> or Tenex may be useful for PTSD. I got Tizandine
> which is a cleaner version of Clonidine, from
> a neurologist who thought it would cure my head
> pain. The Tizanidine is the only medicine besides
> Serzone, Topamax, and Klonopin to help alleviate
> my myofacial pain.
>
> -John

 

Cam, glad to see you back!!

Posted by JohnX2 on February 21, 2002, at 12:53:23

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2, posted by Cam W. on February 21, 2002, at 8:20:08


Hi Cam,

Glad to see you back.
It's giving me a nice anti-depressant effect.

-John

 

Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this » Cam W.

Posted by Zo on February 23, 2002, at 1:40:10

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2, posted by Cam W. on February 21, 2002, at 8:20:08

Yes, sad to say (not really) the whole Separate Neurotransmitter theory is breaking down, as well it should. The whole system is soooo much more complex and the feedback loop essentially spread throughout the body--it's like trying to isolate a piece of the weather and medicate it. I'm old enough to feel lucky that anything works at all, and that things work as well as they do is pure gravy; I lost two uncles because all there was for them was lithium and what, thorazine. Think of the complexity with which we discuss and manipulate our neurochemistry---and, very clearly, at the most primitive, primitive levels.

BTW, I don't know how relevant this is, but antihistamines are brain death to me. . .

Zo

 

Re: On second thought

Posted by Zo on February 23, 2002, at 1:43:35

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out. » JohnX2, posted by Ritch on February 21, 2002, at 0:19:48

I want outta this thread. Having read further into it.

Let me know if you come up with anything.

Have fun, guys!

Zo

 

Re: On second thought » Zo

Posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 14:44:41

In reply to Re: On second thought, posted by Zo on February 23, 2002, at 1:43:35

Zo,

I think if I ever lock onto a final solution to my
pain/hypomania/depression it will be serendipidity
and not science just like the rest of all great
psychiatric discoveries. ;)

Regards.
John


> I want outta this thread. Having read further into it.
>
> Let me know if you come up with anything.
>
> Have fun, guys!
>
> Zo

 

Zo, a question » Zo

Posted by susan C on February 23, 2002, at 19:42:26

In reply to Re: bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this » Cam W., posted by Zo on February 23, 2002, at 1:40:10

>BTW, I don't know how relevant this is, but antihistamines are brain death to me. . .

Hi, I have an informal poll going on and have currently only found two other people who experience suicidal ideation with the taking of OTC antihistamines...is this what you mean with your comment? You can contact me directly.

mouse

 

chlorpheniramine » JohnX2

Posted by christophrejmc on February 24, 2002, at 19:07:22

In reply to bad histamine feedback my culprit? Check this out., posted by JohnX2 on February 20, 2002, at 21:14:54

John,

I just read an article that states that chlorpheniramine (and brompheniramine) is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Have you ever read anything similar? Is it possible that its effect on serotonin (if you are taking a large dose, I'd expect its SRI effects to be significant) is why it's helping you?

-Chris

 

Re: Zo, a question » susan C

Posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 22:30:46

In reply to Zo, a question » Zo, posted by susan C on February 23, 2002, at 19:42:26

Sorry I can't be of help in this one. . .No, too comatose to even think of the word. Death as in. . . pull the plug, I wouldn't know the difference.

:) Zo

 

Re: chlorpheniramine » christophrejmc

Posted by JohnX2 on February 24, 2002, at 22:38:31

In reply to chlorpheniramine » JohnX2, posted by christophrejmc on February 24, 2002, at 19:07:22


Chris,

I read that it increases serotonin release somehow.
I'm still trying to understand what it does. I
just know it works. I feel really drowsy though.
What I find is that my feelings of inner restlessness
go away as well as my headaches and sinuses. I actually
get a bit of a runny nose. If a drink caffeine it acts
as a very strong nasal decongestant indicating that
there are stores of norarenaline and dopamine working again.

Remeron and benadryl never gave me this effect. maybe
the chemical structure of the medicine is doing something
outside the h1 antagonism.

-John

> John,
>
> I just read an article that states that chlorpheniramine (and brompheniramine) is a serotonin reuptake inhibitor. Have you ever read anything similar? Is it possible that its effect on serotonin (if you are taking a large dose, I'd expect its SRI effects to be significant) is why it's helping you?
>
> -Chris

 

Re: On second thought » JohnX2

Posted by Zo on February 24, 2002, at 22:38:44

In reply to Re: On second thought » Zo, posted by JohnX2 on February 23, 2002, at 14:44:41

Well, I guess I ought to add, I *am* out of the woods, after seventeen years of shuffling through meds. Course the meds when I began weren't worth s**t. I didn't really begin to take off until Wellbutrin was released in '89, but became allergic to it.

And just got to the right mix Dec 2001. . !

Zo's Magic Mix. . ..was adding Lamictal. Had tried it in '97, disastrously, when I was on Zoloft. . .Pdoc found several years later it combines disastrously with Zoloft! You just never know--here it is the One Thing that pulls it all together for me. And I do mean all.

Normal is. . .very strange. Yet. .. strangely normal.

Wishing everyone zero pain,
Zo


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