![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 54. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
THE PERSON WHO READS THIS IS CARING AND PATIENT (IT'S LONG) AND WILL TRY TO GIVE ME SOME SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT THEY THINK OF MY SITUATION, EITHER FROM EXPERIENCE OR SPECULATION, AND IF MY PLAN FOR MY NEXT VISIT IS HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION :) WHO EVER READS THIS THROUGH IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!! YOU MAY EVEN LEARN SOMETHING NEW... I TRIED TO KEEP IT AS DETAILED AS POSSIBLE...
* * *
About two months ago I was diagnosed with depression. The depressed mood started when I was in about the 7th grade. I, however, was pretty young and thought this was just normal and me being what my mother called "a lazy-ass who's give a sh*t was broke". In the 9th grade, I experimented with pot and instantly fell in love (which my doctor now describes as "self-medicating") with it's effects. That was (except for shrooming a couple of times) the only drug I've ever done. I didn't even (and still don't) smoke cigarettes, or drink, or do acid, or anything like that. From what I read on the net, for the most part, pot didn't seem extremely harmful except for possible lung damage over the long term. But that was long-term... besides, I was a basketball player and stayed in great shape anyway. It was the only way I felt good. It was so easy to just go smoke a bowl and be set for a while. I am 17 now (senior in high school) and recently was put on probation for possesion of pot. So I HAD to quit, which wasn't hard to do, but I went back to feeling like crap. A month later I decided to get help from a doctor.
I live in a suburb of Kansas City and am seeing one of the most highly regarded doctors in the area. My Mom is a nurse and told me that, anyway. The doctor told me that he thought I did indeed have depression and, based on the info that I gave him about myself (low motivation, lack of concentration, everything seems flat, low sex drive, short fuse/easily agitated, pot user for a few years as well), he said it was probably dopamine related. He put me on Wellbutrin to start out with. Our insurance didn't cover the SR form so I had to go with the older version and worked my way up (as instructed) to 150mg/morning and 150/mg noon. The first week sucked: my heart would beat pretty hard (in class, I could look at my chest and see my shirt flapping with every beat) which worried me and of course led to an increased heart rate :( Worse, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get to sleep. I called him about these problems and he then prescribed 1/2mg of Klonopin (clonazepam) before bedtime and told me that the heart thing was my body getting use to it and that it should go away "soon". Klonopin helped almost the first or second night on it (I got to sleep anyway) and my heart situation went away shortly thereafter. On my next scheduled visit a month later, I told him I didn't think it was helping my mood, concentration, or anything other than the fact that it relieved my short-fuse and helped my frequent anger problems (which was progress, I guess). This explained why, which I told the doctor, teachers had told me that they said I was "more pleasant to be around" or I didn't "look as angry all the time." I said I didn't notice anything other than that. Everything was still flat. I still wasn't motivated to do things as easy as get up and go to the movies with my friends or go to school basketball games. He said "You're still taking the Wellbutrin like I said right? 300mg a day?". I told him I was, and then prescribed me 5mg of Adderall in the morning and another 5mg at noon (to help concentration and further increase dopamine levels).
I didn't feel anything... other than the fact that it was screwing with my appetite so much that I was only eating one meal a day for a bit and had to force myself to eat a second for the next couple days! Those last couple days I was out of school as well, and slept-in to about 11 AM and took my morning dose with the noon dose with the mentality of keeping the same amount of medicine going in my system every day. My Dad, though, would kindly wake me up at 8 or so to give me my Wellbutrin. The Adderall, I figured, would wake me up and I wanted to sleep so I simply postponed it. After using the Adderall for those 4 or 5 days, with no apparent change (except for loss of appetite), I finally decided to call and tell him of my troublesome results. The nurse said he was out for the day, so I left a message with her (BTW, she also told me never to double up doses again) and said she'd try to get ahold of him. She called back later that evening and said he wanted me to try 15mg in the morning but none at noon and if I still wasn't feeling any change in mood to call her back in two days. Whatever. 2 days passed and I still wasn't feeling a thing (which, after doing research on the net recently, I find quite strange.. I should have been feeling SOMETHING), told that to the nurse and she then instructed me to quit the Adderall altogether for two days to see if I really was kidding myself (or whatever the reason was) and call her back after that time and tell her how I felt. 2 days and sure enough, nothing. I called her (which was 2/7/02- the day I wrote this) and told her, at which point I said I was going to stop taking the Adderall for reasons I wanted to explain to the doctor, and scheduled to see him 3 weeks earlier (which will be Wednesday the 13th). Here is where I then developed what I believe will be my soution.
This past week, I have been spending hours upon hours trying to find information on all kinds of medicine from all kinds of places: from www.erowid.com to this very forum, Psycho-Babble! By the way, I just became a member (it's past midnight now and officially 2/8/02) today and am going to be an active participant in all further discussions and help people based on my experiences with current and upcoming medications, by the way. Anyhoo, I came across an article somehow on deprenyl. The more and more I researched it, the more and more exited I began to get. I found a 5 or 6 page bio of deprenyl's discoverer, Dr. Joseph Knoll, and the uses of the medicine. It explained basically everything I spent hours researching on in a single report which I have printed out and am bringing to my visit next week. It talks about it's unique selective MAO-B inhibiting properties, catecholamine activity enhancing ability, neuroprotection from various neurotoxins, anti-aging possibilities, and most importantly its effectiveness in teating depression.
I brought it up the last time I met with the doctor but he said that, to his knowledge, it didn't work very well with depression and that he'd never heard of it used for this in quite some time and was mainly used as a medicine for Parkinsons and that it wasn't the best choice, in his opinion. Knowing as much as I know now, I believe he is unaware of some of deprenyl (selegiline HCL - Eldepryl in the US)'s potential benefits and recent findings. Who could blame him? He deals with psychotropic drugs that deal with depression and few doctors use deprenyl for this purpose. All that he knew was that at MAO-B selective doses (above 15mg, it becomes a full MAOI) it was not SOLELY effective at treating depression. My paper describes the studies that were done on atypical depressives, tretment-resistant depressives, and major despressives, and that effective treatment levels required dosages in the 20-30, even 60mg range. Well above MAO-B selective doses. Even though the treatments were effective and had low side-effects, there are risks involved with all-out MAOI's like diet restrictions (such as the "cheese effect"). So I can see where he's coming from in this light. But, there were three studies that suggested effective antidepressant action at selective MAO-B inhibiting doses.
That study was just the beginning of the paper's deprenyl-depression studies. What's eye-catching is what followed: "In 1978 Mendelwicz and Youdim treated 14 depressed patients with low-dose deprenyl (< or =10mg) plus 300mg 5-HTP 3 times daily for 32 days. Deprenyl potentiated the antidepressant effect of 5-HTP in 10/14 patients. 5-HTP enhances brain serotonin metabolism, which is frequently a problem in depression, while deprenyl enhances dopamine/noradrenalin activity" (how? - I'll explain in a bit). "Under activity of brain dopamine, noradrenalin (norepinephrine), and serototin neural systems are the most frequently cited biochemical causes of depression. So, deprenyl plus 5-HTP would seem a natural antidepressant combination."
The next one gets even more promising! "In 1984 Birkmayer, Knoll, and colleagues published their successful results in 155 unipolar depressed patients who were extremely treatment-resistant. Patients were given 5-10mg deprenyl plus 250mg phenylalanine daily. Approximately 70% of their patients achieved full remission, typically within 1-3 weeks. Some patients were continued up to 2 years on treatment without loss of antidepressant action. The combination of deprenyl plus phenylalanine enhances brain PEA activity, while both deprenyl and PEA enhance brain catecholamine activity. Thus deprenyl plus phenylalanine is also a natural antidepressant combination."
Almost equally impressive: "In 1991 H. Sabelli reported successful results treating 10 drug-resistant major depressive disorder patients. Sabelli used 5mg deprenyl daily along with 100mg vitamin B6, and 1-3 grams phenylalanine twice daily as treatment. 6 of 10 patients viewed their depressive episodes terminated within 2-3 days! Global Assessment Scale scores confirmed the patients' subjective experiences. Vitamin B6 activates the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to PEA, so the combination of the three is a bio-logical way to enhance both PEA and catecholamine brain function, and thus to diminish depression."
Here is why the catecholamine enhancement is so important in treating depression, especially in those whose depression can be related directly to dopamine under-activity (as in my case). You see, even if deprenyl's oringinally hypothesized mode of action - directly increasing synaptic dopamine levels through MAO-B inhibition - is false, deprenyl's MAO-B inhibition still provides part of its benefit.
It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. One of the reasons the doctor put me on Adderall! - but it seems obvious Adderall is only a temporary fix as it is well documented that the human body develops tolerance (whether it's 6 days or 2 years, everyone's different) to amphetamines, including d-amphetamine, quite quickly. Plus, amphetamines are known to damage dopamine cells but whether or not the damage is done at clincally prescribed doses is not yet known and that scares me especially after long term use AND from what I hear, discontinuing use just sends the person right back into the hole it once lifted them out of). Deprenyl would seem much better (it even protects your dopamine cells from damage/neurotoxicity) :) Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the the substantia nigra (which deprenyl enhances) and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement.
Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. And the key here is the addition of the supplement phenylalanine to the deprenyl to help significantly increase PEA levels (one need only look to the results of the above studies to come to that conclusion). Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect.
So my proposal on Wednesday will be to take 10mg a day of selegiline, 600mg of phenylalanine supplement, as well as a good amount of vitamin's C and E, and 1000mg of NAC. The reason for the latter is that deprenyl increases only 2 of the 3 main antioxidants made in the brain. SOD, and catalase to a lesser extent. But the third, glutathione isn't raised at all so it is recommended by Knoll that one take around 1000mg NAC (which increases glutathione levels) to normalize these levels. Good amounts of vitamin C and E help very much as antioxidants themselves. I will ask to discontinue Adderall and taper off the Wellbutrin as well. Wellbutrin is now said to be mainly a noradrenalin reputake inhibitor while only mildly binding to the dopamine uptake sites and actually decreasing the amount of dopamine that is manufactured! I believe that Eldepryl and around 600mg/day of phenylalaine will take care of the noradrenalin AND dopamine especially.
I also am going to tell him (and I don't know why the HELL I didn't tell him this before.. I didn't even think of it) that I want to take that Klonopin (2mg) in the morning as well as 1mg a night (.5mg isn't working anymore). I have some social anxiety/phobia characteristics that I need addressed and I hear it works wonders in people with SP or similar syptoms and is even enhanced by deprenyl! I get VERY nervous and tense at family gatherings, in the presence of women (I had a couple of "intimate" relations with some girls and had to halt their sexual advances before it got to THAT point...I was just too nervous), and it's unbearable. I have no chance of getting it up in those situations. It's not physical either, I wake up with an erection almost every morning. When I'm at home and relaxed it's not a problem in response to erotic thoughts or things I hear or see on television. Another is an example of my UA's that I have to take while on probation. You have to piss in a cup with someone watching you and that makes me so uncomfortable I can't even piss for the life of me! I have to drink enough water so that my bladder feels like it's going to explode before I go in and take a UA. I learned this after one time that I drank like 4 glasses of water before I went in and didn't piss and they had to close for lunch so I had to leave and come back in 30 minutes. So on the way home I almost DIED from the pain. I know it's kinda funny, and I wish I could've seen the look on my face (and other onlookers for that matter!) on the drive home. I've never been in so much pain in my life! No one else has that problem, though. I'm the only one who has to wait the 30 minutes to try again and it sucks. I just get way too nervous in situations like that. When I pull up next to cars at a stop light I'm uncomfortable looking to see who's pulled up beside me. WHY??? I found that there are alot of girls that have mentioned to me or my friends that they "want" me (all I'd have to do is give the OK and BAM! - I don't want to sound arrogant or anything - but that just makes this whole situation that much more bothersome, ya know? The opprotunities I'm missing!) but NOOOO! I'm too much of a pussy to relax and do my thing, so to speak. It's purely psychological. I'm proud of my body and if only I could put it to use! In public places I feel as if everyone is looking at me. It's wierd. Either I have a booger in my nose that I'm not finding or I have a problem. It's one of the two. There are so many other examples but my eyes are starting to smart and my fingers are getting tired. It's 3:40 in the morning now (it's taken me over 3 hours to write and edit this...that's gotta be something along the lines of obsessive-compulsive or something). Anyway, I hope I've found the solution to my problems and I hope the reader hasn't fallen asleep already... -Jason911
Posted by Ed on February 8, 2002, at 12:29:28
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Jason-- very well written. Based on earlier posts and my own experiences, I think all your conclusions are well-grounded and accurate. I think you are right on with 5-10 mg. selegiline, 500-1,500 l-phenylalanine and maybe some klonopin. (You might want to substitute Amisulpride or Mirapex or Requip for the klonopin, though). For more info, try searching this site using terms selegiline and phenylalanine and amisulpride. Also, you may want to look into adrafinil (plus amisulpride, mirapex or requip) if the selegiline/l-phenylalanine combo does not work. Good luck.
PS- If none of that works, I'll bet good old Nardil would work for you.> THE PERSON WHO READS THIS IS CARING AND PATIENT (IT'S LONG) AND WILL TRY TO GIVE ME SOME SUGGESTIONS AS TO WHAT THEY THINK OF MY SITUATION, EITHER FROM EXPERIENCE OR SPECULATION, AND IF MY PLAN FOR MY NEXT VISIT IS HEADED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION :) WHO EVER READS THIS THROUGH IS GREATLY APPRECIATED!! YOU MAY EVEN LEARN SOMETHING NEW... I TRIED TO KEEP IT AS DETAILED AS POSSIBLE...
>
> * * *
>
> About two months ago I was diagnosed with depression. The depressed mood started when I was in about the 7th grade. I, however, was pretty young and thought this was just normal and me being what my mother called "a lazy-ass who's give a sh*t was broke". In the 9th grade, I experimented with pot and instantly fell in love (which my doctor now describes as "self-medicating") with it's effects. That was (except for shrooming a couple of times) the only drug I've ever done. I didn't even (and still don't) smoke cigarettes, or drink, or do acid, or anything like that. From what I read on the net, for the most part, pot didn't seem extremely harmful except for possible lung damage over the long term. But that was long-term... besides, I was a basketball player and stayed in great shape anyway. It was the only way I felt good. It was so easy to just go smoke a bowl and be set for a while. I am 17 now (senior in high school) and recently was put on probation for possesion of pot. So I HAD to quit, which wasn't hard to do, but I went back to feeling like crap. A month later I decided to get help from a doctor.
>
> I live in a suburb of Kansas City and am seeing one of the most highly regarded doctors in the area. My Mom is a nurse and told me that, anyway. The doctor told me that he thought I did indeed have depression and, based on the info that I gave him about myself (low motivation, lack of concentration, everything seems flat, low sex drive, short fuse/easily agitated, pot user for a few years as well), he said it was probably dopamine related. He put me on Wellbutrin to start out with. Our insurance didn't cover the SR form so I had to go with the older version and worked my way up (as instructed) to 150mg/morning and 150/mg noon. The first week sucked: my heart would beat pretty hard (in class, I could look at my chest and see my shirt flapping with every beat) which worried me and of course led to an increased heart rate :( Worse, it was IMPOSSIBLE to get to sleep. I called him about these problems and he then prescribed 1/2mg of Klonopin (clonazepam) before bedtime and told me that the heart thing was my body getting use to it and that it should go away "soon". Klonopin helped almost the first or second night on it (I got to sleep anyway) and my heart situation went away shortly thereafter. On my next scheduled visit a month later, I told him I didn't think it was helping my mood, concentration, or anything other than the fact that it relieved my short-fuse and helped my frequent anger problems (which was progress, I guess). This explained why, which I told the doctor, teachers had told me that they said I was "more pleasant to be around" or I didn't "look as angry all the time." I said I didn't notice anything other than that. Everything was still flat. I still wasn't motivated to do things as easy as get up and go to the movies with my friends or go to school basketball games. He said "You're still taking the Wellbutrin like I said right? 300mg a day?". I told him I was, and then prescribed me 5mg of Adderall in the morning and another 5mg at noon (to help concentration and further increase dopamine levels).
>
> I didn't feel anything... other than the fact that it was screwing with my appetite so much that I was only eating one meal a day for a bit and had to force myself to eat a second for the next couple days! Those last couple days I was out of school as well, and slept-in to about 11 AM and took my morning dose with the noon dose with the mentality of keeping the same amount of medicine going in my system every day. My Dad, though, would kindly wake me up at 8 or so to give me my Wellbutrin. The Adderall, I figured, would wake me up and I wanted to sleep so I simply postponed it. After using the Adderall for those 4 or 5 days, with no apparent change (except for loss of appetite), I finally decided to call and tell him of my troublesome results. The nurse said he was out for the day, so I left a message with her (BTW, she also told me never to double up doses again) and said she'd try to get ahold of him. She called back later that evening and said he wanted me to try 15mg in the morning but none at noon and if I still wasn't feeling any change in mood to call her back in two days. Whatever. 2 days passed and I still wasn't feeling a thing (which, after doing research on the net recently, I find quite strange.. I should have been feeling SOMETHING), told that to the nurse and she then instructed me to quit the Adderall altogether for two days to see if I really was kidding myself (or whatever the reason was) and call her back after that time and tell her how I felt. 2 days and sure enough, nothing. I called her (which was 2/7/02- the day I wrote this) and told her, at which point I said I was going to stop taking the Adderall for reasons I wanted to explain to the doctor, and scheduled to see him 3 weeks earlier (which will be Wednesday the 13th). Here is where I then developed what I believe will be my soution.
>
> This past week, I have been spending hours upon hours trying to find information on all kinds of medicine from all kinds of places: from www.erowid.com to this very forum, Psycho-Babble! By the way, I just became a member (it's past midnight now and officially 2/8/02) today and am going to be an active participant in all further discussions and help people based on my experiences with current and upcoming medications, by the way. Anyhoo, I came across an article somehow on deprenyl. The more and more I researched it, the more and more exited I began to get. I found a 5 or 6 page bio of deprenyl's discoverer, Dr. Joseph Knoll, and the uses of the medicine. It explained basically everything I spent hours researching on in a single report which I have printed out and am bringing to my visit next week. It talks about it's unique selective MAO-B inhibiting properties, catecholamine activity enhancing ability, neuroprotection from various neurotoxins, anti-aging possibilities, and most importantly its effectiveness in teating depression.
>
> I brought it up the last time I met with the doctor but he said that, to his knowledge, it didn't work very well with depression and that he'd never heard of it used for this in quite some time and was mainly used as a medicine for Parkinsons and that it wasn't the best choice, in his opinion. Knowing as much as I know now, I believe he is unaware of some of deprenyl (selegiline HCL - Eldepryl in the US)'s potential benefits and recent findings. Who could blame him? He deals with psychotropic drugs that deal with depression and few doctors use deprenyl for this purpose. All that he knew was that at MAO-B selective doses (above 15mg, it becomes a full MAOI) it was not SOLELY effective at treating depression. My paper describes the studies that were done on atypical depressives, tretment-resistant depressives, and major despressives, and that effective treatment levels required dosages in the 20-30, even 60mg range. Well above MAO-B selective doses. Even though the treatments were effective and had low side-effects, there are risks involved with all-out MAOI's like diet restrictions (such as the "cheese effect"). So I can see where he's coming from in this light. But, there were three studies that suggested effective antidepressant action at selective MAO-B inhibiting doses.
>
> That study was just the beginning of the paper's deprenyl-depression studies. What's eye-catching is what followed: "In 1978 Mendelwicz and Youdim treated 14 depressed patients with low-dose deprenyl (< or =10mg) plus 300mg 5-HTP 3 times daily for 32 days. Deprenyl potentiated the antidepressant effect of 5-HTP in 10/14 patients. 5-HTP enhances brain serotonin metabolism, which is frequently a problem in depression, while deprenyl enhances dopamine/noradrenalin activity" (how? - I'll explain in a bit). "Under activity of brain dopamine, noradrenalin (norepinephrine), and serototin neural systems are the most frequently cited biochemical causes of depression. So, deprenyl plus 5-HTP would seem a natural antidepressant combination."
>
> The next one gets even more promising! "In 1984 Birkmayer, Knoll, and colleagues published their successful results in 155 unipolar depressed patients who were extremely treatment-resistant. Patients were given 5-10mg deprenyl plus 250mg phenylalanine daily. Approximately 70% of their patients achieved full remission, typically within 1-3 weeks. Some patients were continued up to 2 years on treatment without loss of antidepressant action. The combination of deprenyl plus phenylalanine enhances brain PEA activity, while both deprenyl and PEA enhance brain catecholamine activity. Thus deprenyl plus phenylalanine is also a natural antidepressant combination."
>
> Almost equally impressive: "In 1991 H. Sabelli reported successful results treating 10 drug-resistant major depressive disorder patients. Sabelli used 5mg deprenyl daily along with 100mg vitamin B6, and 1-3 grams phenylalanine twice daily as treatment. 6 of 10 patients viewed their depressive episodes terminated within 2-3 days! Global Assessment Scale scores confirmed the patients' subjective experiences. Vitamin B6 activates the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to PEA, so the combination of the three is a bio-logical way to enhance both PEA and catecholamine brain function, and thus to diminish depression."
>
> Here is why the catecholamine enhancement is so important in treating depression, especially in those whose depression can be related directly to dopamine under-activity (as in my case). You see, even if deprenyl's oringinally hypothesized mode of action - directly increasing synaptic dopamine levels through MAO-B inhibition - is false, deprenyl's MAO-B inhibition still provides part of its benefit.
>
> It wasn't until the 1990s that Knoll's deprenyl research took a new direction. Working with rat brain stems, rabbit pulmonary and ear arteries, frog hearts and rats in shuttle boxes, Knoll discovered a new mode of action of deprenyl that he believes explains its widespread clinical utility. Knoll discovered that deprenyl [selegiline] (and it's cousin, PEA) are "catecholamine enhancers". Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits - the mesolimbic-cortical circuit and the locus coeruleus. The neurons from these two brain circuits project from the brain stem, through the mid-brain, to the cerebral cortex. They help to maintain focus, concentration, alertness and effortful attention. One of the reasons the doctor put me on Adderall! - but it seems obvious Adderall is only a temporary fix as it is well documented that the human body develops tolerance (whether it's 6 days or 2 years, everyone's different) to amphetamines, including d-amphetamine, quite quickly. Plus, amphetamines are known to damage dopamine cells but whether or not the damage is done at clincally prescribed doses is not yet known and that scares me especially after long term use AND from what I hear, discontinuing use just sends the person right back into the hole it once lifted them out of). Deprenyl would seem much better (it even protects your dopamine cells from damage/neurotoxicity) :) Dopamine is also the transmitter for a brainstem circuit - the nigrostriatal tract - which connects the the substantia nigra (which deprenyl enhances) and the striatum, a nerve tract that helps control bodily movement.
>
> Here's how it works: when an electrical impulse travels down the length of a neuron - from the recieving dendrite, through the cell body, and down the transmitting axon - it triggers the release of packets of nerotransmitters into the synaptic gap. These transmitters hook onto receptors of the next neuron, triggering an electrical impulse which then travels down that neuron , causing yet another transmitter release. What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release. In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It's like "turning up the volume" on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in depression where there may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons. And the key here is the addition of the supplement phenylalanine to the deprenyl to help significantly increase PEA levels (one need only look to the results of the above studies to come to that conclusion). Even deprenyl in itself has shown in autopsy studies to not only increase dopamine levels by 40-70% in Parkinson patients but increase PEA levels 1300-3500%! You see, PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits. PEA has an extremely rapid turnover due to its rapid and continuous breakdown by MAO-B. Thus deprenyl's catecholamine activity enhancer has a dual mode of action. At MAO-B inhibiting doses, deprenyl has a huge catecholamine enhancing effects due to the major increases in PEA levels. Many authors have pointed out the probable dopamine neuron activity enhancing effect of PEA in Parkinson patients taking deprenyl. Knoll's discovery of PEA's catecholamine activity enhancer effect now explains this PEA dopamine-enhancing effect.
>
> So my proposal on Wednesday will be to take 10mg a day of selegiline, 600mg of phenylalanine supplement, as well as a good amount of vitamin's C and E, and 1000mg of NAC. The reason for the latter is that deprenyl increases only 2 of the 3 main antioxidants made in the brain. SOD, and catalase to a lesser extent. But the third, glutathione isn't raised at all so it is recommended by Knoll that one take around 1000mg NAC (which increases glutathione levels) to normalize these levels. Good amounts of vitamin C and E help very much as antioxidants themselves. I will ask to discontinue Adderall and taper off the Wellbutrin as well. Wellbutrin is now said to be mainly a noradrenalin reputake inhibitor while only mildly binding to the dopamine uptake sites and actually decreasing the amount of dopamine that is manufactured! I believe that Eldepryl and around 600mg/day of phenylalaine will take care of the noradrenalin AND dopamine especially.
>
> I also am going to tell him (and I don't know why the HELL I didn't tell him this before.. I didn't even think of it) that I want to take that Klonopin (2mg) in the morning as well as 1mg a night (.5mg isn't working anymore). I have some social anxiety/phobia characteristics that I need addressed and I hear it works wonders in people with SP or similar syptoms and is even enhanced by deprenyl! I get VERY nervous and tense at family gatherings, in the presence of women (I had a couple of "intimate" relations with some girls and had to halt their sexual advances before it got to THAT point...I was just too nervous), and it's unbearable. I have no chance of getting it up in those situations. It's not physical either, I wake up with an erection almost every morning. When I'm at home and relaxed it's not a problem in response to erotic thoughts or things I hear or see on television. Another is an example of my UA's that I have to take while on probation. You have to piss in a cup with someone watching you and that makes me so uncomfortable I can't even piss for the life of me! I have to drink enough water so that my bladder feels like it's going to explode before I go in and take a UA. I learned this after one time that I drank like 4 glasses of water before I went in and didn't piss and they had to close for lunch so I had to leave and come back in 30 minutes. So on the way home I almost DIED from the pain. I know it's kinda funny, and I wish I could've seen the look on my face (and other onlookers for that matter!) on the drive home. I've never been in so much pain in my life! No one else has that problem, though. I'm the only one who has to wait the 30 minutes to try again and it sucks. I just get way too nervous in situations like that. When I pull up next to cars at a stop light I'm uncomfortable looking to see who's pulled up beside me. WHY??? I found that there are alot of girls that have mentioned to me or my friends that they "want" me (all I'd have to do is give the OK and BAM! - I don't want to sound arrogant or anything - but that just makes this whole situation that much more bothersome, ya know? The opprotunities I'm missing!) but NOOOO! I'm too much of a pussy to relax and do my thing, so to speak. It's purely psychological. I'm proud of my body and if only I could put it to use! In public places I feel as if everyone is looking at me. It's wierd. Either I have a booger in my nose that I'm not finding or I have a problem. It's one of the two. There are so many other examples but my eyes are starting to smart and my fingers are getting tired. It's 3:40 in the morning now (it's taken me over 3 hours to write and edit this...that's gotta be something along the lines of obsessive-compulsive or something). Anyway, I hope I've found the solution to my problems and I hope the reader hasn't fallen asleep already... -Jason911
>
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Posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 12:49:18
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) » Jason911, posted by Ed on February 8, 2002, at 12:29:28
Thank you for your thoughts, Ed! You see, my idea behind this plan also was to keep the med count as small as possible. I'm not big on the idea of taking 4 or 5 meds to equalize this or substitute for that. But I'll do whatever it takes to feel like I should, ya know? I'm hoping that this combo won't have really ANY side effects. BTW, why did you suggest I might want to substitute with amisulpride? I see lots of people are having to take that adrafinil with it. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed and wish me luck! Again, thank you for your input. -Jason911
> Jason-- very well written. Based on earlier posts and my own experiences, I think all your conclusions are well-grounded and accurate. I think you are right on with 5-10 mg. selegiline, 500-1,500 l-phenylalanine and maybe some klonopin. (You might want to substitute Amisulpride or Mirapex or Requip for the klonopin, though). For more info, try searching this site using terms selegiline and phenylalanine and amisulpride. Also, you may want to look into adrafinil (plus amisulpride, mirapex or requip) if the selegiline/l-phenylalanine combo does not work. Good luck.
> PS- If none of that works, I'll bet good old Nardil would work for you.
>
Posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 12:58:43
In reply to Re: MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) » Ed, posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 12:49:18
How come I can't get any information on amisulpride (Solian) on webmd or yahoo-health? Is it even found in the US?
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 19:24:28
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
DO NOT use l-deprenyl/eldepryl/(selegeline)/! If you have a short fuse/agitation or are easily angered a dopaminergic such as Eldepryl would be a bad choice for you. It will make your agitation & insomnia worse.
You sound like you would be much better off with an SSRI such as Zoloft with 0.5-1 mg of Klonopin in the morning to offset SSRI side effects & if you have insomnia- Klonopin 0.5 mg OR Ambien 5-10 mg at night. Zoloft even has some dopamine reuputake inhibition & so it is activating at 75 & 100mg & will get you out of bed ready to start the day. (The starting dose of 50 mg makes most people sleepy & is probably too low). I found out Zoloft gets rid of all social anxiety & depression & most fun of all, you can go up & talk to girls without even thinking about it, makes you an "instant mac!"- probably the best cure for social anxiety/shyness I have come across- for me, even better than Klonopin. Unfortunately I had to discontinue Zoloft since I turned out to have Bipolar disorder.
If you try the Zoloft I would absolutely avoid psychostimulants/dopaminergics all together. They are not physically addicting, but psychologically addicting meaning that once you start using them in order to study, it is almost impossible to study without them. Not only that but they decrease your social skills & often make you act like a nervous weirdo.
Eldepryl probably won't cure your depression & isn't used much as a dopaminergic antidepressant anymore because there are far superior & safer drugs such as Mirapex available for that. Eldepryl may or may not help you study, but Ritalin definitely will & results in much greater brain stimulation & focus. Since there are several different dopamine receptor subtypes different dopaminergic drugs will have different effects. Mirapex is a dopaminergic anti-depressant but won't help you study like Ritalin does.
Also, much of the research & info about eldepryl is funded by or comes from the overseas European companies that sell Eldepryl (selgeline) as a so called "smart drug" to US citizens through the mail & this "nootropic" smart drug research is pretty suspect & unreliable. Don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet. A more reliable source would be to read psychopharmacology/psychiatry books at Barnes & Noble although most don't talk about l-deprenyl because hardly anyone uses it. Be sure to read the PDR to find out about the side effects of Eldepryl & its dangerous interactions with anti-depessants before you really decide whether you want to take that stuff.
If you really do need a drug to help you study, you may have attention deficit disorder. Usually people with ADD respond to either Ritalin or Adderall but not both. I cannot study at all on Adderall but with Ritalin I feel like Albert Einstein. Ritalin has been found to be up to 70% effective for ADD, & as a psychostimulant I would bet anything that it vastly superior to deprenyl. Unlike other dopaminergenics, Ritalin usually won't increase your agitation or "short fuse", but allows you to focus on the task at hand with great concentration for about 3 & 1/2 hours- & then you are back to normal. You should take it 30-45 minutes before breakfast & lunch/or early afternoon, & then you can get all of your studying done and have no insomnia. My GPA at a academically rigorous university went from a 2.2 to a 3.0 on Ritalin. Additionally, a new & improved version of Ritalin called Focalin (which is the clinically active 'd-isomeer' of Ritalin) just came out that provides more brain stimulation with less peripheral side effects like anxiety or insomnia. Since Focalin is twice as strong as Ritalin, a 10 mg pill of Focalin is equal to a 20 mg pill of Ritalin. Both Ritalin & Focalin last about 3.5 hours.
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 1:08:20
In reply to An SSRI such as Zoloft would work better for you , posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 8, 2002, at 19:24:28
WHAT!!! I have a hard enough time getting it up now and you think that an SSRI (which causes sexual dysfunction in 60% of patients - regardless of what the company tells you) will help my sexual problems?? It is psychological now and I don't want it to be all of a sudden physical SD. Where you able to have sex on it??? I hear that it will cause impotence. I'm thinking the Klonopin will ease me out and anger control is the LEAST of my problems. I wouldn't hurt anybody, I would just lash out verbally at people sometimes over stupid things. Klonopin should help that (2mg) in the morning and enhanced by Eldepryl. And you know, feeling better in itself would definately help my anger control. Anger control is, in my view, magnified by my depressed mood, ya know? SSRIs would be the last thing for me to try because sexual dysfunction is the LAST thing a depressed teen needs :) Thanks for your input, though. I appreciate it! My problem is in the dopamine area.. I'm sure of it. I tried a bunch of 5-HTP and St. John's Wort shortly after I stopped smokin dope and didn't do a thing for me. Curious if my mood could have something to do with ADD, I tried one of my sister's Ritalin pills a while back before my first visit (she's ADD) while on no herbs or meds and just ONE made me a nervous wreck! ADD hasn't run in the family as no one else related to me has this and my sister is a little slow though too and has some other problems. Learning disabilities, etc. God bless her. Anyway, I found myself making beats in my rocking chair, rocking back and forth like a mad man and realized I was acting like a hyperactive lunatic. Lasted only an hour and a half, thank the lord. I told the doctor this and he said that that was important to him to know. Adderall does absolutely nothing. I took 30mg at one time today (and I'm going to stop it altogether for sure now) just to see what happened and if a higher dose was needed for me. It STILL didn't do anything but increase my heart rate to an uncomfortable level and kissed my appetite goodbye!!!! That dose would make most people euphoric! That should also be an indicator. Dopamine controls motivation and will take the flatness out of my life. And remember it's not the delrenyl itself. It's the combination with phenylalanine. Not many books write about this and not many doctors know about it because it is not marketed this way and has only RECENTLY been studied with these combinations. Only since the 1990's. It looks promising. And there was that Selegiline Transdermal Patch test a while ago. And reading some of these posts it worked like a charm. Another post said that Klonopin plus selegiline (5mg) a day was amazing for this particular person. No anxiety anymore and sexually soaring and mentally focused!! You should look for yourself. And most people can be cured from Wellbutrin, SSRI's, or others. But I have the feeling I'll go under the category of treatment-resistant. Hell, when I get a headache, no amount of Tylenol, Advil, or Asprin can get rid of it. It just has to take it's course over the next couple of hours. My body can fight these meds but won't be able to fight the MAO-B! BWAHAHAHA! But like I said I'll try anything but I want to give this a try first as it seems to make the most sense and has the least side-effects. Side-effects ARE listed in my paper. Agitation, insomnia were most common. These people shouldn't be taking it obviously because their problems lie elsewhere. Possibly setotonin related. Who knows? There's always the Klonopin. Focalin or SSRIs could lie in the future. I'll let you know how it goes on Wednesday and the results of my med taking and, again, thanks for your input. It means alot. Write back if you would. -Jason911
> DO NOT use l-deprenyl/eldepryl/(selegeline)/! If you have a short fuse/agitation or are easily angered a dopaminergic such as Eldepryl would be a bad choice for you. It will make your agitation & insomnia worse.
>
> You sound like you would be much better off with an SSRI such as Zoloft with 0.5-1 mg of Klonopin in the morning to offset SSRI side effects & if you have insomnia- Klonopin 0.5 mg OR Ambien 5-10 mg at night. Zoloft even has some dopamine reuputake inhibition & so it is activating at 75 & 100mg & will get you out of bed ready to start the day. (The starting dose of 50 mg makes most people sleepy & is probably too low). I found out Zoloft gets rid of all social anxiety & depression & most fun of all, you can go up & talk to girls without even thinking about it, makes you an "instant mac!"- probably the best cure for social anxiety/shyness I have come across- for me, even better than Klonopin. Unfortunately I had to discontinue Zoloft since I turned out to have Bipolar disorder.
>
> If you try the Zoloft I would absolutely avoid psychostimulants/dopaminergics all together. They are not physically addicting, but psychologically addicting meaning that once you start using them in order to study, it is almost impossible to study without them. Not only that but they decrease your social skills & often make you act like a nervous weirdo.
>
> Eldepryl probably won't cure your depression & isn't used much as a dopaminergic antidepressant anymore because there are far superior & safer drugs such as Mirapex available for that. Eldepryl may or may not help you study, but Ritalin definitely will & results in much greater brain stimulation & focus. Since there are several different dopamine receptor subtypes different dopaminergic drugs will have different effects. Mirapex is a dopaminergic anti-depressant but won't help you study like Ritalin does.
>
> Also, much of the research & info about eldepryl is funded by or comes from the overseas European companies that sell Eldepryl (selgeline) as a so called "smart drug" to US citizens through the mail & this "nootropic" smart drug research is pretty suspect & unreliable. Don't believe everything you read, especially on the internet. A more reliable source would be to read psychopharmacology/psychiatry books at Barnes & Noble although most don't talk about l-deprenyl because hardly anyone uses it. Be sure to read the PDR to find out about the side effects of Eldepryl & its dangerous interactions with anti-depessants before you really decide whether you want to take that stuff.
>
> If you really do need a drug to help you study, you may have attention deficit disorder. Usually people with ADD respond to either Ritalin or Adderall but not both. I cannot study at all on Adderall but with Ritalin I feel like Albert Einstein. Ritalin has been found to be up to 70% effective for ADD, & as a psychostimulant I would bet anything that it vastly superior to deprenyl. Unlike other dopaminergenics, Ritalin usually won't increase your agitation or "short fuse", but allows you to focus on the task at hand with great concentration for about 3 & 1/2 hours- & then you are back to normal. You should take it 30-45 minutes before breakfast & lunch/or early afternoon, & then you can get all of your studying done and have no insomnia. My GPA at a academically rigorous university went from a 2.2 to a 3.0 on Ritalin. Additionally, a new & improved version of Ritalin called Focalin (which is the clinically active 'd-isomeer' of Ritalin) just came out that provides more brain stimulation with less peripheral side effects like anxiety or insomnia. Since Focalin is twice as strong as Ritalin, a 10 mg pill of Focalin is equal to a 20 mg pill of Ritalin. Both Ritalin & Focalin last about 3.5 hours.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 9, 2002, at 3:13:20
In reply to Re: An SSRI such as Zoloft would work better for you » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 1:08:20
>Just because 5-HTP or St. John's Wort didn't work for you does not mean that Zoloft or Paxil would not. I've given myself fair trials of both 5-HTP & St. John's Wort & neither of them did anything! I have found that Herbs & supplements very often do not work & often are a waste of money & simply do not work as well as SSRIs. SSRIs are much stronger medicines than supplements or herbs.
As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively.
Posted by DINGBAT on February 9, 2002, at 8:10:05
In reply to Re: An SSRI such as Zoloft would work better for you, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 9, 2002, at 3:13:20
Hi 3 Beer - If you don't mind, please could you fill me in a little re: Mirapex (vs selegiline)? I live in South Africa and would like to see if it is available here (and, more importantly, if it would help me). Also, I've tried Paxil and had severe anorgasmia. In your opinion, would Celexa be more likely to help without the sexual side-effects?
Thanx!
> >Just because 5-HTP or St. John's Wort didn't work for you does not mean that Zoloft or Paxil would not. I've given myself fair trials of both 5-HTP & St. John's Wort & neither of them did anything! I have found that Herbs & supplements very often do not work & often are a waste of money & simply do not work as well as SSRIs. SSRIs are much stronger medicines than supplements or herbs.
>
> As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
>
> I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
>
> If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
>
> If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
>
> Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
>
> I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
>
> If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 9:08:19
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Jason,
You seem very intellgent and informed. I think jumping to deprenyl and phenylalanine now is a bit premature. You still have yet to try more traditional medications such as the TCAs and SSRIs. The TCA and SSRI are good medications and should be given a trial before going on to more experimental meds.
You have done alot of research on the net and here in psychobabble. I would ask you to keep this in mind when reading material from these sources 1. You can find a study to support any hypothesis if you look hard enough .... I could probable find a study that states aspirin causes headaches .... the study would be from a foreign country, very poorly designed, probable supported by someone selling a product that competed with aspirin, etc. BOTTOM LINE alot of internet material is inaccurate! 2. Researching here at psychobabble is good if you have failed traditional therapy ... most of us here are failures of tradition meds and are trying newer and sometime experimental meds. So we are not the most accurate source either.
You are young .... don't jump to mirapex, deprenyl, etc before trying the traditional meds. And don't get brainwash by some cure all internet article or study.
Spike
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 13:01:58
In reply to Don't Jump the Gun this Early » Jason911, posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 9:08:19
But the SSRI's in my mind are the last resort because of the sexual dysfunction (like being unable to get it up or ejaculate or whatever) and some people are affected even after they've stopped for months!! Scary. If that happened to me I'd probably commit suicide!! Life without sex or intimate relationships with women would simply destroy me and I picture Prozac, Zoloft, and especially Paxil my path to death or dispair. I want to try this first. I'm thinking the Klonopin will help me with any anxiety or agitation symptoms and lower my inhibition or whatever. Most important to me, people on the selegiline/klonopin combo have reported being even TOO sexually stimulated. I'm far from that now and would like to give that a try first. What do you think in response to this. I really appreciate everybody's advice. It shows you some people really do care about others and for that I am very grateful. Please give me any more advice that comes to mind. God bless -Jason911 (HELP!) p.s. The second study done by Youdom and Co. from my original post is actually in the manufacturer's insert of deprenyl!!! I've read other studies done a John Hopkins University that comfirm some of the ideas I've made regarding selegiline.
> Jason,
>
> You seem very intellgent and informed. I think jumping to deprenyl and phenylalanine now is a bit premature. You still have yet to try more traditional medications such as the TCAs and SSRIs. The TCA and SSRI are good medications and should be given a trial before going on to more experimental meds.
>
> You have done alot of research on the net and here in psychobabble. I would ask you to keep this in mind when reading material from these sources 1. You can find a study to support any hypothesis if you look hard enough .... I could probable find a study that states aspirin causes headaches .... the study would be from a foreign country, very poorly designed, probable supported by someone selling a product that competed with aspirin, etc. BOTTOM LINE alot of internet material is inaccurate! 2. Researching here at psychobabble is good if you have failed traditional therapy ... most of us here are failures of tradition meds and are trying newer and sometime experimental meds. So we are not the most accurate source either.
>
> You are young .... don't jump to mirapex, deprenyl, etc before trying the traditional meds. And don't get brainwash by some cure all internet article or study.
>
> Spike
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 13:05:48
In reply to Re: An SSRI such as Zoloft would work better for you, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 9, 2002, at 3:13:20
He's one of the best!!
> >Just because 5-HTP or St. John's Wort didn't work for you does not mean that Zoloft or Paxil would not. I've given myself fair trials of both 5-HTP & St. John's Wort & neither of them did anything! I have found that Herbs & supplements very often do not work & often are a waste of money & simply do not work as well as SSRIs. SSRIs are much stronger medicines than supplements or herbs.
>
> As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
>
> I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
>
> If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
>
> If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
>
> Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
>
> I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
>
> If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
Posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 13:17:54
In reply to Re: Don't Jump the Gun this Early » spike4848, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 13:01:58
First, SSRI sexual dysfunction is totally reversible after the med is stopped. If people have persistant sexual dysfunction after being off SSRI it is either their depression or a physiology abnormality causing the dysfunction. Second, please don't get caught up in the serotonin-dopamine-norepinephrine game ... scientists don't know crap about the brain and even less about how these drugs work. Third, deprenyl usually requires doses in the range of 30 to 40 mg to relieve depression, at non selective maoi range .... so you will need the diet/drug restrictions.
Lastly, I admire your assertiveness .... never let that go. Always be proactive and keep educated.
Spike
P.S. I probably would try desipramine next ... but hey you never know what is going to work for each individual.
Posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 13:21:28
In reply to MY DOC DEALS ESPECIALLY WITH DEPRESSION! » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 13:05:48
> He's one of the best!!
What is his name?
Spike
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 13:35:09
In reply to What is your Doctor's Name? » Jason911, posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 13:21:28
Mill Creek Outpatient Services
(Health Midwest)
5701 W. 119th, Suite 407
Overland Park, KS 66209Leonel Urdaneta, M.D. (913) 339 9933
PS- any comments on the sexual side-effects that could destroy me??
> > He's one of the best!!
>
> What is his name?
>
> Spike
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 14:00:06
In reply to Re: Don't Jump the Gun this Early » Jason911, posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 13:17:54
> First, SSRI sexual dysfunction is totally reversible after the med is stopped.
That is good news to me.>****Second, please don't get caught up in the serotonin-dopamine-norepinephrine game ... scientists don't know crap about the brain and even less about how these drugs work.
I wouldn't go that far... but I definately know where you're coming from. Doctors still don't entirely know how Wellbutrin works in our bodies. But have you read my orginal post on deprenyl/dopamine/NE/serotonin? I think the discoverer of the deprenyl (Joesph Knoll)'s word can be at least CONSIDERED, ya know?>****Third, deprenyl usually requires doses in the range of 30 to 40 mg to relieve depression, at non selective maoi range .... so you will need the diet/drug restrictions.
Like I said, did you read my orginal post (all the way through!) I do know of the 30, 40, and even 60mg was effective, AND the dietary restrictions. My doctor brought this very point up and that dosages like that were not wise at my stage of treatment! But it's the phenylalanine (and vitamin's B6, C, and E wouldn't hurt.. maybe even 5-HTP) and NAC for precautional measures. Read my post again if you haven't read clearly. MAO-B inhibition won't do it alone. It's the combination that's the key! Only started in the 1990s... remember? I believe strongly in this. And even read some of the posts regarding these people's participation in the Selegiline Transdermal Patch study done not too long ago. Looks promising. So it's fairly unknown right now for use in depression.
>*** > Lastly, I admire your assertiveness .... never let that go. Always be proactive and keep educated.
Thank you very much. And you don't know how happy I am to have you and others chipping in on helping me get better. I am forever in your debt. And whatever I learn from my experiences and possible cure down the road I'll be sure and return these favors. God bless, Spike.
>
>
> > P.S. I probably would try desipramine next ... but hey you never know what is going to work for each individual.
I'll look into that. I've heard it mentioned here and there but don't know much about it. First of all, I hope it's available in the US because I don't want to pay high prices beacuse of insurance this an that... you know. Some people are recommending me medicines that are only available outside of the US... oh, well. At least they are trying to help. Tell me anything else that comes to your mind! -Jason911
Posted by Eloy on February 9, 2002, at 14:55:11
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Jason911, you sound very intelligent and analytical. i seem to over-analyze things too. Anyhow, you seem to have your facts together, and i especially liked your last paragraph. i can relate to how you feel also because i too suffer with social anxiety and intermitten periods of depression. i'm a born again Christian and i pray to God alot, prayer does help.
Posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 18:14:56
In reply to MUST READ (deprenyl, klonopin, adderall, wellb..) , posted by Jason911 on February 8, 2002, at 4:01:05
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
In reply to Re: An SSRI such as Zoloft would work better for you, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 9, 2002, at 3:13:20
I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
>
>
>>
Retard writes:
> "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
>
> I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
>
> If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
>
> If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
>
> Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
>
> I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
>
> If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."Butthead.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by IsoM on February 9, 2002, at 19:26:15
In reply to I think IsoM is needed here, ISOM where are you (nm), posted by spike4848 on February 9, 2002, at 18:14:56
What could I add to the other posts, Spike? I really don't know enough about all of what Jason wrote but have read some of it before. I still think psychopharmacology is still more an art, or trial-&-error. So very little is understood about our brain. It's like to trying to decipher an ancient manuscript with only knowing some of the words yet not even understanding their meanings.
Posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 20:19:16
In reply to 3 Beer gives sex advice* not laid in years*drunk » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
Posted by Bekka H. on February 9, 2002, at 23:01:45
In reply to MY DOCTOR IS A PSYCHIATRIST!!!!! (nm), posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 20:19:16
Jason, you seem really smart. I can't believe you're still in high school. I do agree, however, with spike that it's a bit early to start on an MAOI. Also, above a certain number of milligrams on Eldepryl, you have the same dietary restrictions as the old MAOIs, and that might be very difficult.
Again, I'm really impressed with your knowledge, your research and the way you express yourself.
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 0:18:27
In reply to Re: MY DOCTOR IS A PSYCHIATRIST!!!!!, posted by Bekka H. on February 9, 2002, at 23:01:45
Thanks for your caring, Bekka. I really admire your interest. I know it may seem early because of risks associated with MAOI's, but don't worry. 5 or 10mg will inhibit MAO-B only (no doubt). Above that is where it gets risky :) But personally, I'd say 20mg is where that point starts. I wouldn't need to worry about that anyway, 10mg will be my first dose/day and if all goes well, I plan on reducing to 5mg as soon as I feel the effects. And sex, as you know, is important to me which can be a risk with the SSRI's. I would rather try that first and THEN go to SSRI's. I really wish I didn't have to. With Wellbutrin not working and stimulants like Adderall & Ritalin not working for me, I don't see many other options other than SSRI class drugs such as Zoloft or Effexor or MAOI's (other than my selegiline) like Nardil which has its drawbacks. Definately not tri-cyclics. I'm leaning toward thinking I would be classified as your everyday atypical. They respond best to MAOI's. But, of course, my 5mg dose or so will prevent dietary risks. The mechanism of action won't be that of your typical MAOI, like Nardil, though. It's MAO-B inhibition with phenylalanine to promote PEA for catecholamine enhacement which should therefore promote concentration, motivation, and all around energy, while the Klonopin (not generic) in the morning (2mg) will help with my SP/anxiety problems. As a result I'm hoping to feel great, be sexually charged, and free of anxiety and just feel loose rather than tense and land myself a girlfriend. I'll let you know how it goes on Wednesday to see if I get my program approved and, more importantly, if it worked for me. Call me the guinea pig, if you will. I could set an example for others to follow if meds are not working for them. Adderall seemed to have the opposite effect you'd typically see in most people, which was kind of sedating at the 50mg dose I took today before the ACT (after 30mg yesterday produced no response) and also resulted in a slight headache for a few hours. Not for me. It was against doctors orders, but I knew 15mg was nowhere near workable and the nurse was telling me that he might want to increase my dose and/or try Adderall XR. After I tell him of my experience with the higher dosages, I'm sure he'll figure out that's not part of the needed solution. Hopefully, he'll keep an open mind and listen to, what I believe, is a valid argument for treatment. I figure there's low risk of side-effects so why not give it a shot for a month, y'know? Again, thanks for your input! Keep in touch and God bless... -Jason911
.
.
.> Jason, you seem really smart. I can't believe you're still in high school. I do agree, however, with spike that it's a bit early to start on an MAOI. Also, above a certain number of milligrams on Eldepryl, you have the same dietary restrictions as the old MAOIs, and that might be very difficult.
>
> Again, I'm really impressed with your knowledge, your research and the way you express yourself.
Posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
In reply to 3 Beer gives sex advice* not laid in years*drunk » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 9, 2002, at 18:47:53
If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.
The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.
And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.
Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.
(In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!3 Beers.
--------------------------------------------------> I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
>
> P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
>
Retard writes:
>
> > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> >
> > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> >
> > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> >
> > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
>
>
> ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> >
> > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> >
> > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> >
> > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
>
> Butthead.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 4:25:09
In reply to Hey a*shole I am trying to help you!, posted by 3 Beer Effect on February 10, 2002, at 0:26:46
I'll take it paragraph by paragraph on why we had differences of opinion:
> > > If you can't tolerate dopaminergics like Wellbutrin & Ritalin because of insomnia & rapid heartbeat why do you think you could tolerate l-deprenyl? That makes no logical sense. Go ahead & be an idiot & try l-deprenyl but you'll regret it later when you are nervous & can't sleep.< < <**
Keep an open mind here. I know alot more than you think. But HEY.. calm down, calm down. Don't take that to heart, I think I make a good point here: Wellbutrin isn't totally a dopaminergic. And not all dopaminergics act the same way in the brain (or the people that use them, for that matter). It is known to block the reuptake of NE to some extent but only mildly binds to the dopamine receptor site. Wellbutrin's actual mechanism of action is actually unknown. It has shown to actually DECREASE the amount of dopamine produced by the brain. But it may have some effect on the dopaminergic system in another way other than creating more dopamine at the synapse, no one really knows for sure. Just because Wellbutrin doesn't work in an individual doesn't mean that the problem isn't dopamine related by any means. Same with serotinergic meds. Serzone has its share of good responders, while others respond better to Effexor, or Prozac, or Zoloft. Serotonin is the heart of their problems, but if they thought like you, after having failed Serzone and Zoloft they'd give up and say that they don't respond to serotinergic meds. Take methylphenidate and Adderall as another example. Each are closely related to or a derivative of amphetamine and both are classified as stimulants but act quite differently in the brain and depends on the individual that uses them. Ritalin made me extremely hyper-active, whose actions tend to be more acute (does the "meth" part of the word provide any clue..) and shorter acting, while Adderall (which with me, had no effect, except as an appetite suppressant, until I tried 50mg - considered a high dose that makes most people feel euphoric or at least more alert to say the least - which made me a little sedated and gave me somewhat of a headache) tends to stimulate at a steady pace thanks to dextro-amphetamine and other salts, including levo-amphetamine, from 5 - 7 hours. IN MOST PEOPLE. I don't respond well to Adderall. Ritalin can work for someone while Adderall will not & vise versa or both may not work. These two meds stimulate the brain in different ways and are known to increase dopamine levels, but, other than increasing dopamine levels, they do many other things to the body and mind that can be harmful or cause side-effects, i.e. over-stimulating the central nervous system, in suseptable individuals, and not related directly to dopamine alone. It really does get complicated. But it seems to me that you think all dopaminergics do the same thing which is entirely false. Just because those two stimulants didn't work does not mean my problem is not dopamine related. Some dopaminergics increase dopamine directly at the synapse (these tend to lose effectiveness over time as the brain, over time, responds by reducing the amount of recieving neurons in respose to perpetual high levels of dopamine - called "homeostasis"), while others block it's uptake, while others help the body to produce it via stimulating the brain to more efficiently make and release the dopamine at the right times and in response to a given impulse (bascially by jump starting the mechanisms that recede the dopamine release). The brain is a hard thing to coax into doing what you would like it to do. As for insomnia, this only lasted for a week after starting the wellbutrin (like the psychiatrist anticipated) as wellbutrin also stimulates the CNS! But, he prescribed that clonazepam (not Klonopin as I previously stated - I recieved the generic - which I found out a few hours ago and I feel Klonopin is superior) at .5mg before bed. I don't need this to get to sleep as I have stopped that 4 days ago to prove this to myslelf. I think I would have gotten to sleep anyway after allowing a full week to get used to it, like he said, but I insisted I get assistance to get to sleep out of impatience. Plus for the past month, some days, I have taken it at around 10pm or so while not going to sleep til about 1 or 2am because I stayed up on this computer, dedicated to get as much information as I could in search of my "solution". I leave some info out of some of my posts as each of my posts would then resemble a short story (as if they aren't already). So really, the Wellbutrin did help a little in calming me down. The Adderall made me a little edgy at 30-50mg. So what? I'm done with it. Agitation? Remember from my original post, when I told the doctor about the various compliments I got from teachers? But it isn't enough and the stimulants are not working plus aren't a wise desicion for use over the long term (at least Adderall). There is an outside chance that I could fall under that treatment-resistant category or, otherwise, an atypical depressee! These people do, in fact, regardless of what you think, respond best to MAOI's. We know what side effects can come from MAOI's like diet restrictions and possibly weight gain and blah blah blah. Selegiline could, in theory, be just as good in treating depression although via different methods and the studies that were in my original post (that were in that paper of mine) were not advertisements or attached in any way to the sale of deprenyl, and just simply a medical student writing on the possible benefits and uses of this fairly unkown drug, compiling 4 well-respected and highly regarded studies on depression, in the US. The second study is actually in the manufacturer's insert (Youdim)! The reason deprenyl is rarely used in depression is mainly based on the first study from my other post that stated that MAO-B inhibition alone was simply not enough to battle depression unless used at non-selective doses (above 15mg- usually ranging from 30-60mg), but part of a potentially profound solution for this. Not to mention protection of brain cells from neurotoxicity. Scientists involved in studies of life-extension are well aware of it's benefits. There have been studies that you can actually use this if you happened to be an MDMA user (which I'm not) and prevent that damage due to neurotoxicity (cell damage) that occurs in multiple users or MPTP toxins from heroin use. There is much, much more that I haven't even mentioned yet and for good reason as it's not really relevant to the subject of depression. Sexual rejuvination for obvious well-explained reasons (just read other people's posts on their use of it- search for it). And Klonopin dosage I want for the morning for anxiety/phobia symptoms, which are almost as equally important to me as it impacts a large part of my everyday life, could also serve as a safeguard against possible insomnia from over-stimulation. Interestingly, (search Babble with the words "selegline" and "klonopin") getting to sleep should be a breeze and is only enhanced by the selegiline or other MAOI's such as Nardil. Both of these, however, are not near as effective by themselves. You know about deprenyl by now, but sole klonopin use can affect some people's short-term memory. But, I'm not disagreeing about the fact that I may not respond like the others or the 60 or 70% of the patients from the studies. NOT EVERY PERSON REACTS THE SAME TO A SPECIFIC MEDICATION.
>
> > > The only anti-depressant that doesn't cause insomnia & has no sexual side effects is Remeron, so if you had half a brain you would try that before l-deprenyl which is a potentially dangerous parkinson's disease drug rarely (if ever) used in the US for depression.< < <.
.
Deprenyl is the least bit dangerous. The only side effects ever reported in people without digenerative brain diseases were agitation, insomnia, and nausea (usually due to too much of a specific transmitter). Deprenyl is reported in most human studies to be well tolerated. *Typically, no abnormalities are noted in blood pressure, laboratory valves, ECG, or EEG (Tolbert, S. & Fuller, M. - 1996 - "Selegiline in the treatment of behavioral and cognitive symptoms of Alzheimer disease" ANN PHARMACOTHER 30, 1122-29).Remeron? Side Effects: Feeling sleepy, dizzy, or tired - Increased appetite - weight gain - Nausea - Constipation - Dry mouth - Odd or unusual dreams (common)
You know why deprenyl is used rarely by now don't you? It's from assumptions and dismissal based on the fact of the effectiveness of sole MAO-B inhibition alone. However, dosages were quite effective but at non-selective doses (30-60mg) and, ultimately, a low side-effect solution to other MAOI's.
>
> > > And getting psychopharmacology information from erowid.org? That is ridiculous- Erowid is a website largely devoted to disseminating information about how to manufacture illegal drugs like MDMA, GHB & methamphetamine.< < <.
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.
You could look at it that way but that information is off site. BTW, it's erowid.COM! It informs us all about not only commonly used and abused drugs (informative to the curious and points out pros and cons and by no means encourages drug use) and tell it like it is, but also about all kinds of pharmacutical drugs and vitamins/herbs. Other readers can see for themselves. Quit being so negative. They were one of many sources of information..
.
> > > Also, you'll do alot better in life if you don't act like such an a*shole to people that are trying to help you, especially if they older than you & have taken many more psychiatric medications than you. You might learn something from their experiences.< < <.
.
I had somewhat of a stern tone in my last response to you beacuse I was a little perturbed about the fact that I expressed that I was reluctant to try (and would like to avoid if at all possible) and had an extreme dislike for SSRI's because of their sexual side effects. But that is what you go and recommend, saying it would improve my sex life, while also neglecting to mention the large percentage of people that experienced sexual side-effects, i.e. inorgasmia. And all this after I read that you hadn't had sex in 2 years and that was in a drunken state with a fat woman. Plus, you're bipolar (no offense). Extreme highs and lows is the definition and maybe that had something to do with your managable sexual function. I am in a completely different situation and a good 50% at least of men that are unipolar or that take it for anxiety experience sexual side-effects. ABCNews.com reported that that number could be as high as 60% percent of all SSRI's users. That information could have been useful. And my goal, by the way, is to go through as few meds as possible so as to not screw my brain up so bad that it doesn't know whether to make serotonin or bust into a convulsion. You do have the "experience" but that's not neccesarily a good basis for an opinion if your bipolar. Your brain is operating alot different than mine. In your case, I'd be reluctant to give suggestions to people who's diagnosis is completely different than yours as the meds that have worked for you could have a completely different effect on a person with different problems and most likely require different solutions. Same could happen even if the diagnosis was similar to yours but at least you'd be working in familiar territory and therefore would be perfectly acceptable to provide your thoughts and opinions.> (In other words you don't know sh*t about sh*t!).
I have a 4.0 GPA and on my way to IT school. Obviously, I know something. I possess a great deal of common sense and an uncanny ability to learn quite fast. I know my problems and have come up with a solution for it based on what i've learned. We'll know who's right after Wednesday. Time will tell...
.
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> I would tell you good luck but your a di*k so screw you!< < <
>
NOW WAIT JUST A MINUTE! HOW RUDE. WHAT HAVE YOU BEEN DRINKING??
> 3 Beers.
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > I am beginning to question your advice. You tell me that Zoloft will make you last longer and all that B.S. when you say you haven't gotten laid in 2 years (and you were drunk then). And then you go and reccommend Paxil!! The king of sexual dysfunction???... Shame on you. "It'll help your social skills with women"? Please. That's not my problem. I can hide tenseness and such. I can talk to women for God sakes. There's just an underlying anxiety that won't go away. It's the anxiety and nervousness I feel in those situations. And not just those situations either.. many other SP/anxiety symptoms. You wouldn't understand. Are you just trying to ruin my sex life because yours sucks so bad? Piss off man... thanks for nothing :) -you know the name
> >
> > P.S. - My doctor SPECIALIZES in depression. That's his only field. Adults and young adults. That 3 beer effect isn't doing you much good. Get a job and get a life. Take my advice: Re-read my original post.
> >
> Retard writes:
> >
> > > "As far as sexual side effects go, Zoloft does not affect the ability to get it up but it just makes you last longer. The people in which SSRIs cause sexual dysfunction are mostly middle aged married men who have trouble ejaculating without popping a Viagra! In a teenage male (most of whom suffer from premature ejaculation) it should be a godsend! I am 23 & before Zoloft I was a 2 minute man, but while taking Zoloft I could last over a half an hour- a sex god!- ask women which man they would prefer! It also appears to make orgasms more intense.
> > >
> > > I have been reading about psychopharmacology for about a year now, & with your agitated state the last thing you need is a dopaminergic. Increases in Dopamine help concentration & motivation, but also can cause agitation, insomnia, & in high doses schizophrenic like paranoia. (In fact severly agitated depressives are often given anti-depressants or atypical anti-psychotics that block the actions of dopamine). I previously thought Zoloft may help you since it does have some dopamine reuptake inhibition properties, but it, along with Prozac are the most 'activating' of the SSRIs & often cause insomnia. With your agitation & insomnia you would be better off with Paxil, Celexa or Remeron. (Of the SSRIs Paxil has the worst sexual side effects & Celexa the least side effects).
> > > Remeron has no sexual side effects whatsoever,& it seems to be pro-sexual- 30 or 45 mg are a good starting dose, the higher the dose the less sedating Remeron is- don't take 15 mg it is too sedating. If you find 45 mg is too sedating up to 60 mg can be used & has virtually no side effects).
> > >
> > > If you are prescribed an anti-depressant please do not take Selegeline (l-deprenyl) in addition to it because it can result in a very serious drug interaction (See PDR).
> > >
> > > If you absolutely are set on taking a dopaminergic Mirapex is a far better choice & is actually used as a dopaminergic anti-depressant while L-Deprenyl is used for this purpose very rarely, if ever.
> >
> >
> > ****** THATS THE PROBLEM!!!! COMBINATIONS ARE PROVEN**************************************
> > >
> > > Your response to Adderall is not necessarily similar to the response you will have to a dopaminergic. Adderall releases & blocks the reuputake of BOTH Norepinephrine & Dopamine. Wellbutrin is a norepinephrine & dopamine reuputake inhibitor. Ritalin works as a relatively selective dopamine reuptake inhibitor. If you had a poor response to Ritalin, your response to l-deprenyl will probably just as bad (or worse since l-deprenyl lasts longer). Also, keep in mind that l-phenylalanine increases agitation & insomnia & nervousness.
> > >
> > > I think you are making a mistake that is going to result in more anger & agitation. I think either Zoloft, Paxil, Celexa or Remeron 30-45 mg would be a much better choice for you but it often takes people trials of many different medications before they find the right combination. Zoloft or Paxil will help you to be more sociable, funny, & popular- especially with girls, while Remeron will calm down your agitation/anger/anxiety & gives most people the best-quality sleep of their life.
> > >
> > > If you have health insurance, I would ask your general doctor for a referral to a psychiatrist. I have a feeling that it is going to take awhile to find the right combination to treat your problems & general doctors are simply not knowledgeable enough about psychiatric medications to help you effectively."
> >
> > Butthead.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
Posted by Joel on February 10, 2002, at 4:59:03
In reply to OK! I feel bad but hear me out, beer man » 3 Beer Effect, posted by Jason911 on February 10, 2002, at 4:25:09
Jason911, practically everything you said was pasted directly out of biopsychiatry.com, and i take 5mg of deprenyl with 50mg of HTP.
I can tell you that beer man is probably right, I think deprenyl is only good for people who dont respond to other treatments cause it doesnt work as well most of the time. Although for manic depressives with sensitivity to most anti depressants, sure its probably the best choice. For a dysphoric person like yourself, Id try an SSRI.
But to be bluntly honest, 300mg of HTP is a lot of goddamn HTP. i cant find more than 50mg in a pill(and btw HTP means nothing without B-6 so you should get plenty of that as well). Oh and btw, HTP is just as much of a sexual depleter as most SSRI's. Its not a bad thing though cause instead you just DONT WANT sex, which is good.
Oh also wellbutrin increases dopamine production and decreases release.
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