![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 40. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
Here goes..
This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.Any thoughts?
Posted by bob on January 25, 2002, at 23:19:26
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
Scott:
I'm pretty much the same as you. Most of the med combos have been problematic to say the least, and I'm always wondering if I could hit on that magic drug combo out there that would finally bring me home. The more posts I see on this board, and the further my physical condition deteriorates from med side-effects, the less likely it seems to me that meds are an ideal solution. I've had unacceptable problems with every med combo I've been on, ranging from them not working, to sleeping all the time, to feeling jittery, to no sex... you know the routine. My doctor has reached the conclusion that I will never win this "lottery" I'm playing, and that it's time to come off all meds. This makes me quite sad, as I know it will be very harrowing, and could possibly lead to hospital stays, and ECT. It is getting harder and harder to live on the meds, though... I can't deny it any longer.
Who knows... some people swear by ECT. I just don't know anymore. The ultimate point is... there will almost always be a problem of some sort with any med combo you try (assuming it even works), and there will always be the feeling that you might be missing a great life just because you didn't try that one last combo. It's very frustrating. It is self perpetuating because the meds for so many of us don't truly release us from our problems, and they create new ones, which loom larger and larger over time. Obviously, it the meds worked beautifully, and had a few small manageable side effects, we wouldn't be searching all the time. Of course, there seems to be plenty of people out there for whom the medecines are very agreeable. I am definitely not one of them.
Bob
P.S. I wish you luck in your search for a solution.
Posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 23:25:59
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
Scott:
I wish I could be more helpful. I believe that nobody knows what they are doing with this illness and that they follow this paradigm or that or better yet just do what you suggest. It's a fairly pathetic state that this medical establishment is at. "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him".
I sort of believe that it is all about random trials and you try to make the "best" guess you can given your past re what might work. I do not think that DSM categories are meaningful. Nevertheless, I've found myself wondering if I am bipolar II because nothing seems to work and all I do are trials.
We go on because we must and because we might roll that lucky number with the next cocktail and because eventually knowledge will enter this field.
I can only tell you that I am walking the same path as you and will continue walking it until something good happens or my naturally allotted time on this planet ends. I try to find the joy I can in the things that I can enjoy and otherwise try to survive. I do belong to a support group NDMDA, which helps me quite a bit. You might try something like this if it fits.
I wish you the best on your journey--
Lorraine
> This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
>
> Here goes..
>
> This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
>
>
> I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
>
> One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
>
> Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
>
> Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
>
> Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
>
> They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
>
> So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
>
> Any thoughts?
Posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 0:00:36
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Mr. Scott, posted by Lorraine on January 25, 2002, at 23:25:59
"He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him".
Where does that quote come from?
My doctor doesn't fall under this description, for what it's worth. During our last session, he basically stated that psychiatry has a long, long, long way to go before there are diagnostic tests for specific disorders, and sufficient knowledge to do something about them without making it worse. Thus, we are resorting to trial and error. Serendipity has been psychiatry's best friend so far.
The sum up quote was, "We are trying to repair fine jewelry with a hammer".
Posted by Vince on January 26, 2002, at 0:55:45
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
> This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
>
> Here goes..
>
> This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
>
>
> I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
>
> One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
>
> Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
>
> Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
>
> Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
>
> They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
>
> So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
>
> Any thoughts?Try this link to a news clip on an expiermental medication. I've requested to be in the study. I don't know if I'll be accepted though. However, my doctor said that he may be able to get the medication on humanitarian grounds even before it is released.
http://www.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/series/blues.htm
Click on "RealVideo" and watch it. The video has more information than reading the article.
Vince
Posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 2:10:50
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Mr. Scott, posted by Vince on January 26, 2002, at 0:55:45
> Try this link to a news clip on an expiermental medication. I've requested to be in the study. I don't know if I'll be accepted though. However, my doctor said that he may be able to get the medication on humanitarian grounds even before it is released.
>
> http://www.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/series/blues.htm
>
> Click on "RealVideo" and watch it. The video has more information than reading the article.
>
>
Vince:That was quite an interesting link. I am left to wonder though, why something as promising as they claim this is would not have everybody talking about it by now. This is the first I've ever heard of this from any source: tv, radio, newspaper, internet, or doctor. Searches on the internet do not result in any hits for depression and tetropeptides (or tetrapeptides). It seems like an AWFULLY well kept secret! Nevertheless, I would be one of the happiest people on earth if this turned out to be true and was applicable to me.
Bob
Posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 2:23:56
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
Scott, do you mind me asking -
Are you upset at all about the past break-up with your girlfriend still? Or is she part of your dreams still? Not fully coming to terms with it & moving on could possibly contribute to you feeling low.Do you think you're bipolar at all? I'm admittedly no expert in that area but I've had a couple bipolar friends & from all I've read & heard, they always have had far less sleep needs when manic, or even hypomanic. Have you ever felt manic or hypomanic? Supposedly some bipolars never feel manic - don't know if that's accurate though.
I never responded to your previous posts about your drinking, but if you're sensitive to alcohol (& I don't mean the intoxication part), your past drinking patterns are enough to screw you up without all the meds added on.
As for Omega-3 fatty acids, I don't believe they'll bring about a remarkable "cure". Not that I don't think they're beneficial - cod liver oil & flax seeds have been part of my diet along with vitamin/mineral supplements for many years now but I don't think it'll make a quick fix, more a long-term strategy.
Are you including any B vitamin complex tablets? Alcohol depletes many B vitamins & you don't have to be an alcoholic to have your levels lowered by drinking. There are forms of depression (not saying you have it, just mentioning it) caused by a deficiency of certain B vitamins such as niacin, floic acid, & B12.
So I can't say for you what the cause(s) of your depression might be, only that I'm trying to throw some ideas back that may prove helpful.
Posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 3:17:46
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Vince, posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 2:10:50
Bob, try this link: http://www.protocare.com/default.asp?intDivisionID=4&intSectionID=23&intLocationID=27
It's about the Protocare Trials Pharmacology Research Clinic in Salt Lake City that's conducting the trials mentioned by Vince.And if you're interested in joining the trials, here's a contact page:
http://www.centerwatch.com/professional/pro438.html
I suppose you would have to state exactly what trial you wish to participate in. If they're no longer accepting patients, these tetrapeptides are being tested at other places in the States. Perhaps they could point you to these other centres.
Posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 3:32:37
In reply to For Bob - New Drug Trials » bob, posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 3:17:46
So is it tetrapeptide, or tetropeptide?
What is this compound supposed to treat: bipolar, unipolar, schizophrenia, etc???
Why has nobody ever mentioned this? It seems to me that when a new revolutionary method of treatment shows great promise, there's no holding back the press (e.g. rTMS, VNS, substance-p)
Posted by Lorraine on January 26, 2002, at 9:50:31
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Lorraine, posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 0:00:36
> "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him".
>
> Where does that quote come from?I don't know where it comes from the entire text is:
He who knows and knows that he knows is a wise man, follow him.
He who knows and knows not that he knows is sleeping, wake him.
He who knows not and knows that he knows not is a student, teach him.
He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him.
It is sort of fun. Our family uses it against each other mercilessly. I like the concept of the jeweler also. And lucky you that your doctor doesn't fall under this description. My neice has OCD and I sat in on her session with a psychopharmacologist and asked him how long these kids (she's 16) need to stay on meds. Her mother was there and I thought she needed to know the answer because she is violently opposed to meds. Anyway, he said 6 months to a year and I wondered what planet he was falling from. What a pat answer and with a condition that there is no indication recovery in the true sense occurs from.Knowing you have a chronic condition and knowing that the death of brain cells is likely part of that condition, I find myself thinking I ought to be taking selegiline or lithium whether I want to or not because of their neuroprotective aspects.
Lorraine
Lorraine
>
> My doctor doesn't fall under this description, for what it's worth. During our last session, he basically stated that psychiatry has a long, long, long way to go before there are diagnostic tests for specific disorders, and sufficient knowledge to do something about them without making it worse. Thus, we are resorting to trial and error. Serendipity has been psychiatry's best friend so far.
>
> The sum up quote was, "We are trying to repair fine jewelry with a hammer".
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 26, 2002, at 9:56:28
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Mr. Scott, posted by Vince on January 26, 2002, at 0:55:45
> > This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
> >
> > Here goes..
> >
> > This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
> >
> >
> > I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
> >
> > One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
> >
> > Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
> >
> > Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
> >
> > Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
> >
> > They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
> >
> > So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> > Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> > But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Try this link to a news clip on an expiermental medication. I've requested to be in the study. I don't know if I'll be accepted though. However, my doctor said that he may be able to get the medication on humanitarian grounds even before it is released.
>
> http://www.ksl.com/dump/news/cc/series/blues.htm
>
> Click on "RealVideo" and watch it. The video has more information than reading the article.
>
> Vince
Vince thanks for sharing... My real Player wouldn't play the video clip. Do you know the name of the substance they are talking about in the article?Scott
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 26, 2002, at 10:13:33
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Mr. Scott, posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 2:23:56
> Scott, do you mind me asking -
> Are you upset at all about the past break-up with your girlfriend still? Or is she part of your dreams still? Not fully coming to terms with it & moving on could possibly contribute to you feeling low.
>
> Do you think you're bipolar at all? I'm admittedly no expert in that area but I've had a couple bipolar friends & from all I've read & heard, they always have had far less sleep needs when manic, or even hypomanic. Have you ever felt manic or hypomanic? Supposedly some bipolars never feel manic - don't know if that's accurate though.
>
> I never responded to your previous posts about your drinking, but if you're sensitive to alcohol (& I don't mean the intoxication part), your past drinking patterns are enough to screw you up without all the meds added on.
>
> As for Omega-3 fatty acids, I don't believe they'll bring about a remarkable "cure". Not that I don't think they're beneficial - cod liver oil & flax seeds have been part of my diet along with vitamin/mineral supplements for many years now but I don't think it'll make a quick fix, more a long-term strategy.
>
> Are you including any B vitamin complex tablets? Alcohol depletes many B vitamins & you don't have to be an alcoholic to have your levels lowered by drinking. There are forms of depression (not saying you have it, just mentioning it) caused by a deficiency of certain B vitamins such as niacin, floic acid, & B12.
>
> So I can't say for you what the cause(s) of your depression might be, only that I'm trying to throw some ideas back that may prove helpful.ISOM,
You've been such a good sport about my relentless worrying out loud and looking for answers..I know I challenge people to the point of annoyance with my never ending questioning...
I am upset about the break-up. I deluded myself into thinking it was forever, but in truth it hadn't worked for a long time. I still think about her from time to time, but it's an idealized her I think about, not who she is today. I don't trust people easily to begin with, and my sex drive is low due to the meds, and on top of that it's hard to enter into a relationship with someone who is quote unquote normal when I'm on 3-4 pills a day and loaded with insecurities about them.The bipolar issue is less clear... I have never been clearly manic that is for sure. I have definately gotten 'high' temporaily off of AD's, but still needed as much sleep, I just felt all cheery and energized...It only lasted a few days on each drug.. Then I am often left agitated and anxious necessitating a benzo, which in combo with the AD keeps me okay..Just not great..and with side-effects. I can be intense, snappy, and impulsive a bit. My mind races, but mostly it’s anxious content, although I have had intense good r only racing. My sleep has always been the same. Difficulty going to sleep and waking up. This has been consistent my whole life.
I drink too much at times, and have indeed had a history of serious drug abuse. But cut out all the drugs 6 years ago. I think your right that the drinking screws up the mind and the meds confusing me even further.
Again I appreciate very much your desire to offer help!
Thanks,
Scott
Posted by Blue Cheer 1 on January 26, 2002, at 11:02:43
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
> This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
Right now (in a period of acute despair and frustration) might not be the time to withdraw from seeking support. No one, including your doctors, can predict the future.
>
> Here goes..
>
> This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
>
>
> I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
Seeing 4 different psychiatrists without giving them the necessary time to get to know you is a problem in itself.>
> One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.Too many psychiatrists see what they want to see -- and proceed according to their own orientation, etc. I think it's best to avoid these types, or at least have them justify their treatment decisions. (I've experienced this many times.)
>
> Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
>
> Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.You should try to find one psychiatrist to manage all of your psychiatric care.
>
> Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
>
> They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.The psychiatrist who helped me the most over the years once told me that diagnosis is the soft underbelly of psychiatry, and that psychiatric illness is an intertwining of biological and psychological disturbances. Your break-up with your girlfriend has to have an effect on your mood. Also, psychiatry is as much of an art as it is a science, and you can't expect any drug (or combination) to be *the* answer. It might be helpful to recognize that you may never be entirely free of your "illness" and resolve to treat it the best you can -- without giving up.
>
> So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.When you're withdrawing from a drug, it's not a good time to change doctors.
>
> Any thoughts?It sounds like you're experiencing a lot of anxiety over what's "wrong" right now, and anxiety underlies most "mental illnesses," in my opinion. So, you might try to put aside for now, undue worry and anxiety. In brief, I'd try to find one psychiatrist you're comfortable with, give him/her a chance to understand your problems in depth, and together fashion a systematic treatment plan.
Good luck, and keep your spirits up.
Blue
Posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 12:02:53
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
> This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
>
> Here goes..
>
> This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
>
>
> I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
>
> One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
>
> Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
>
> Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
>
> Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
>
> They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
>
> So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
>
> Any thoughts?
Four Pdocs in six weeks is apt to make you confused. Nobody here could diagnose you so Id say that you coming here to ask what you should do specifically is not going to help you much. You have learned first hand about psychiatry's weakest link...subjective, psychology based diagnosis. Which can literally change with a change of psychiatrist...or with a change in your psychiatrist's attitude or mood towards you as a patient. Diagnosis in psychiatry is extremely poor and is frequently incorrect. Ive been misdiagnosed several times and several times the misdiagnosis led me to being put on different classes of psychiatry medications other than antidepressants. And each time that happened to me, I began feeling markedly worse from any drug I took other than an antidepressant. I have never taken a psychiatry drug outside the class of antidepressants that made me actually feel better. With the one exception of benzos, Amantadine and Ritalin. Anticonvulsants, lithium and anti-psychotics all made me feel markedly worse, markedly more depressed and sometimes even more suicidal feeling (when I took atypical anti-psychotics).When I complained, none of the psychiatry people acted like they even gave a shit some of these drugs made me feel worse. In fact, Ive even had a few psychiatrists who actually wanted me to keep taking drugs which were making me feel markedly worse even after I complained about it to them! Largely as a result of my experiences, I have pretty much lost faith in psychiatry. I think it is largely a joke and so do many other people. Psychiatry has a bad name, always has had a bad name since its inception and probably always will have a bad name no matter how good the drugs get. Because the diagnosis sucks. Also, there is what I call an "institutionalised attitude problem" within psychiatry. Psychiatry needs an attitude adjustment in a major way.
None of these doctors really know whats wrong with us in the medical sense because psychiatric disorders are not considered "real" biological (neurological) disorders. There are no tests available in clinical psychiatry. When you have a psychiatric illness, it is not considered to be "medical" its considered to be a "psychological" problem. But the reality is we are truly sick in the medical sense. Functional neuroimaging is beginning to prove this. Functional brain scans of mentally ill people are clearly different than the brains of health people.
And the really sad thing is there is little interest within psychiatry itself to try to technologically improve diagnosis methods. Most of the interest is on developing new drugs for treatment.
Its all stupid to a large degree. Millions of people in the USA are suffering from bona fide brain based illnesses but most of the time we are not treated like we have a physical disease. This is why there are so many complaints in psychiatry.
I really dont know what to tell you. Psychiatry sucks. Lots of people all over the world are highly dissatisfied with psychiatry. Tons of complaints...more than in any other branch of medicine.
All I can say to you is you are not alone. You are not the only one who has been made confused, scared and disgusted with subjective, screwed up psychiatric diagnosis methods. Dont believe its just you, cause its not. I bet half the people on this board have been misdiagnosed at one time or another.
Good Luck,
Old School
Posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 13:02:33
In reply to Re: For Bob - New Drug Trials » IsoM, posted by bob on January 26, 2002, at 3:32:37
It's tetrapeptides. And it means little. Tetrapeptides are simply snippets of protein. (tetra=four, peptide=2 or more amino acids bonded together)
So what it is telling us is *very little*. That's why I included a contact address if you were interested in learning more. I'm not. If anyone else happens, we'll eventually hear of it. It's just a new avenue that researchers are pursuing right now - tetrapeptides that are no doubt used in brain chemistry, bonded to a precursor of some neurotransmitter? All it means is here's something that can pass the brain/blood barrier.
It may lead nowhere. There was some excitement among allergy sufferers who loved cats about a new vaccine coming out called Catvax. Unfortunately, the excitement faded away after it failed to pass Phase III or IV (forget which). Such is the road to new meds.
> So is it tetrapeptide, or tetropeptide?
>
> What is this compound supposed to treat: bipolar, unipolar, schizophrenia, etc???
Posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 13:35:43
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » IsoM, posted by Mr. Scott on January 26, 2002, at 10:13:33
Nah, Scott, you're not a bother or an annoyance at all. I think it's the combo of "mother/pseudo-psych" in me but if I have suggestions & someone's willing to listen, I don't mind sharing them
> > "...I am upset about the break-up. I deluded myself into thinking it was forever, but in truth it hadn't worked for a long time. I still think about her from time to time, but it's an idealized her I think about, not who she is today. I don't trust people easily to begin with, and my sex drive is low due to the meds, and on top of that it's hard to enter into a relationship with someone who is quote unquote normal when I'm on 3-4 pills a day and loaded with insecurities about them."
I think it's best to think about yourself & learn to be happy with who you are. When you reach the point of at least accepting yourself - thorns & flowers, then you'll be ready for a real relationship. Sorry to sound so sour perhaps, but a person who's doesn't love themself (& I don't mean a narcissistic-type love) isn't capable of truly loving another. Even though I take meds & my moods can occasionally change, I consider myself normal & balanced. I know that can sound ridiculous but I consider my judegment sound & to have a good grasp of common sense. Taking, or not taking, meds is not what I judge "normalness" to be.
> >"...The bipolar issue is less clear... I have never been clearly manic that is for sure. I can be intense, snappy, and impulsive a bit. My mind races, but mostly it’s anxious content, although I have had intense good r only racing. My sleep has always been the same. Difficulty going to sleep and waking up. This has been consistent my whole life."This sounds *much* more like ADD or ADHD. Checking yourself on-line will not confirm whether you do have it, but will give you an idea of whether that may be a reason for your behaviour. ADHD was so strongly indicative of me that I went to a psychologist for testing & he confirmed it. Why not check it out by trying a few of the adult designed tests?
Online Interactive Tests for ADHD: http://add.about.com/cs/onlinetests/
> > "...I think your right that the drinking screws up the mind and the meds confusing me even further."
Perhaps giving your system a chance to clear out all the meds & their effects, plus that of the alcohol may be more helpful than anything else. Hang in there & let us know from time to time how you're doing.And if you feel a worse relapse coming on, post back immediately for moral support.
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 26, 2002, at 13:45:59
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.., posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 12:02:53
> > This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
> >
> > Here goes..
> >
> > This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
> >
> >
> > I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
> >
> > One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
> >
> > Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
> >
> > Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
> >
> > Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
> >
> > They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
> >
> > So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> > Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> > But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
>
> Four Pdocs in six weeks is apt to make you confused. Nobody here could diagnose you so Id say that you coming here to ask what you should do specifically is not going to help you much. You have learned first hand about psychiatry's weakest link...subjective, psychology based diagnosis. Which can literally change with a change of psychiatrist...or with a change in your psychiatrist's attitude or mood towards you as a patient. Diagnosis in psychiatry is extremely poor and is frequently incorrect. Ive been misdiagnosed several times and several times the misdiagnosis led me to being put on different classes of psychiatry medications other than antidepressants. And each time that happened to me, I began feeling markedly worse from any drug I took other than an antidepressant. I have never taken a psychiatry drug outside the class of antidepressants that made me actually feel better. With the one exception of benzos, Amantadine and Ritalin. Anticonvulsants, lithium and anti-psychotics all made me feel markedly worse, markedly more depressed and sometimes even more suicidal feeling (when I took atypical anti-psychotics).
>
> When I complained, none of the psychiatry people acted like they even gave a shit some of these drugs made me feel worse. In fact, Ive even had a few psychiatrists who actually wanted me to keep taking drugs which were making me feel markedly worse even after I complained about it to them! Largely as a result of my experiences, I have pretty much lost faith in psychiatry. I think it is largely a joke and so do many other people. Psychiatry has a bad name, always has had a bad name since its inception and probably always will have a bad name no matter how good the drugs get. Because the diagnosis sucks. Also, there is what I call an "institutionalised attitude problem" within psychiatry. Psychiatry needs an attitude adjustment in a major way.
>
> None of these doctors really know whats wrong with us in the medical sense because psychiatric disorders are not considered "real" biological (neurological) disorders. There are no tests available in clinical psychiatry. When you have a psychiatric illness, it is not considered to be "medical" its considered to be a "psychological" problem. But the reality is we are truly sick in the medical sense. Functional neuroimaging is beginning to prove this. Functional brain scans of mentally ill people are clearly different than the brains of health people.
>
> And the really sad thing is there is little interest within psychiatry itself to try to technologically improve diagnosis methods. Most of the interest is on developing new drugs for treatment.
>
> Its all stupid to a large degree. Millions of people in the USA are suffering from bona fide brain based illnesses but most of the time we are not treated like we have a physical disease. This is why there are so many complaints in psychiatry.
>
> I really dont know what to tell you. Psychiatry sucks. Lots of people all over the world are highly dissatisfied with psychiatry. Tons of complaints...more than in any other branch of medicine.
>
> All I can say to you is you are not alone. You are not the only one who has been made confused, scared and disgusted with subjective, screwed up psychiatric diagnosis methods. Dont believe its just you, cause its not. I bet half the people on this board have been misdiagnosed at one time or another.
>
> Good Luck,
>
> Old SchoolOld School,
That post was genius, and precisely what I guess I needed to hear. I'm cutting and pasting it so I can refer to it when I feel frustrated again and anxious with uncertainty over the true nature of my affliction and how best to treat it pharmacologically. There was nothing in there that anyone but can disagree with except perhaps that lucky person who just by chance got the meds right on the first try.
Thanks,
Scott
Posted by Mr.Scott on January 26, 2002, at 13:54:42
In reply to Follow-up » Mr. Scott, posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 13:35:43
> Nah, Scott, you're not a bother or an annoyance at all. I think it's the combo of "mother/pseudo-psych" in me but if I have suggestions & someone's willing to listen, I don't mind sharing them
>
> > > "...I am upset about the break-up. I deluded myself into thinking it was forever, but in truth it hadn't worked for a long time. I still think about her from time to time, but it's an idealized her I think about, not who she is today. I don't trust people easily to begin with, and my sex drive is low due to the meds, and on top of that it's hard to enter into a relationship with someone who is quote unquote normal when I'm on 3-4 pills a day and loaded with insecurities about them."
>
> I think it's best to think about yourself & learn to be happy with who you are. When you reach the point of at least accepting yourself - thorns & flowers, then you'll be ready for a real relationship. Sorry to sound so sour perhaps, but a person who's doesn't love themself (& I don't mean a narcissistic-type love) isn't capable of truly loving another. Even though I take meds & my moods can occasionally change, I consider myself normal & balanced. I know that can sound ridiculous but I consider my judegment sound & to have a good grasp of common sense. Taking, or not taking, meds is not what I judge "normalness" to be.
>
>
> > >"...The bipolar issue is less clear... I have never been clearly manic that is for sure. I can be intense, snappy, and impulsive a bit. My mind races, but mostly it’s anxious content, although I have had intense good r only racing. My sleep has always been the same. Difficulty going to sleep and waking up. This has been consistent my whole life."
>
> This sounds *much* more like ADD or ADHD. Checking yourself on-line will not confirm whether you do have it, but will give you an idea of whether that may be a reason for your behaviour. ADHD was so strongly indicative of me that I went to a psychologist for testing & he confirmed it. Why not check it out by trying a few of the adult designed tests?
> Online Interactive Tests for ADHD: http://add.about.com/cs/onlinetests/
>
> > > "...I think your right that the drinking screws up the mind and the meds confusing me even further."
>
> Perhaps giving your system a chance to clear out all the meds & their effects, plus that of the alcohol may be more helpful than anything else. Hang in there & let us know from time to time how you're doing.And if you feel a worse relapse coming on, post back immediately for moral support.Your post has made it into my scrap book of posts of wise advice I've received here on this site. Thank you for putting me at ease today and reminding me that occasionally one can find true empathy in this world. I wouldn't even know where to look or who to seek out to get the kind of feedback I get here. And no one is getting paid for it either. Thanks ISOM! I hope one day I can be of help to you.
Scott
Posted by Vince on January 26, 2002, at 14:57:07
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Vince, posted by Mr. Scott on January 26, 2002, at 9:56:28
>
> Vince thanks for sharing... My real Player wouldn't play the video clip. Do you know the name of the substance they are talking about in the article?
>
> ScottScott, I'm sorry, I don't know the name of the drug nor the company that produces it. I've tried to find out from the independant company that is testing it in our area, but they are really tight lipped about it. I think that the local tv channel that done the peice got in hot water with the FDA for doing such a glowing report on an as of yet unproven drug. The tests won't start here until mid March. They will choose the participants sometime in Feb. Pharm Research won't tell me anything more until then. If I find out anything before then I will keep you posted. I don't want to cause undo excitement, only give a ray of hope.
Vince
Posted by IsoM on January 26, 2002, at 16:18:29
In reply to Re: Follow-up » IsoM, posted by Mr.Scott on January 26, 2002, at 13:54:42
Posted by JohnX2 on January 27, 2002, at 15:02:35
In reply to Last post of it's Kind.., posted by Mr. Scott on January 25, 2002, at 22:34:26
About the sleep thing, I'm quite certain after
alot of uncertainty, that I am bipolar and I
never have had a lack of sleep. I have had difficulty
falling asleep and hypersomnia.There is a tricky line between diagnosing
someone with a mild bipolar 2 vs. ADD + depression.
The hyperactivity may be ADD or hypomania and
the diagnosis may be difficult. A lot of times
you just need to go by the medicine responses.
My medicine responses made it quite clear that
I was more of a bipolar II than a ADD + depression.One thing you might try is a med that can
treat either unipolar depression or bipolar
which is Lamictal. This was the first thing
that really worked for me, with no side effects
after hitting a steady dose.
Its tricky to dose when you start it,
and you must be extremely patient. Default
Disclaimer: Individual results may vary.regards,
John
> This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
>
> Here goes..
>
> This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
>
>
> I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
>
> One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
>
> Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
>
> Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
>
> Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
>
> They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
>
> So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
>
> Any thoughts?
Posted by Mr. Scott on January 27, 2002, at 20:17:09
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » Mr. Scott, posted by JohnX2 on January 27, 2002, at 15:02:35
Thanks John for posting!
Damn..Damn..Damn.. I tried Lamictal and got a rash on my arm.
I think I have BPII and GAD, or ADD + Depression + GAD. Stimulants make me feel good temporarily but then they make me irritable, dysphoric, more anxious and even 'weird'.
Stabilizers scare me with all the side effects.
Scott
>
> About the sleep thing, I'm quite certain after
> alot of uncertainty, that I am bipolar and I
> never have had a lack of sleep. I have had difficulty
> falling asleep and hypersomnia.
>
> There is a tricky line between diagnosing
> someone with a mild bipolar 2 vs. ADD + depression.
> The hyperactivity may be ADD or hypomania and
> the diagnosis may be difficult. A lot of times
> you just need to go by the medicine responses.
> My medicine responses made it quite clear that
> I was more of a bipolar II than a ADD + depression.
>
> One thing you might try is a med that can
> treat either unipolar depression or bipolar
> which is Lamictal. This was the first thing
> that really worked for me, with no side effects
> after hitting a steady dose.
> Its tricky to dose when you start it,
> and you must be extremely patient. Default
> Disclaimer: Individual results may vary.
>
> regards,
> John
>
>
> > This sums up where I'm at and asks one final time for ideas on how to proceed. Henceforth I shall restrict my posting from being so desperate like and complaint oriented and accept that life is not ever going to exist on my terms. It seems the wisdom I seek is not to be found where I seek it. And so I will bandage up my wounds and proceed onward as I always have.
> >
> > Here goes..
> >
> > This happened a while ago, but I feel compelled to tell the story.
> >
> >
> > I saw 4 shrinks in 6 weeks...
> >
> > One was known to diagnose BP II a lot (or see it where others miss it as my referring shrink put it), and he said he was diagnosing me with BP II but seemed disturbed that I never ever ever had a time in my life where I needed less sleep than usual. He said to take Depakote or Lithium, because not enough research has been done on the others for first line use. And that I can't take AD's. I tried the Depakote up to 750mg and was constipated and tired all the time...To the point where I could barely communicate. It helped a little but not much considering the side effects. I took it up to 1500mg, where I heard for the first time in my life absolutely no noise in my mind at all, yet I was conscious. I also began eating like a bear.
> >
> > Another shrink said "Take Prozac if it worked for you before" So I did and all it did was make me tired this time. Slept non-stop. He Adderall which made me overall worse. He then got as frustrated at me and started to punish me I believe with Depakote repeatedly saying my mood was unstable.
> >
> > Another shrink Said I have a neurological condition requiring anticonvulsants and his first choice was Dilantin which he said would "wake me up". I din't notice anything significant at all from the Dilantin.
> >
> > Another shrink said I had ADD as a child and am now depressed and anxious because of it. He gave me Serzone and Provigil. Serzone made my face swell.
> >
> > They all ignored the fact that I had broken up with a girlfriend of 5 + years not long before that. Or even consider that I could be in Zoloft Withdrawal which I recently discontinued due to muscle pain.
> >
> > So in the absence of any clear consensus I decided to seek out a physician who would give me both what worked in the past or the alternative I wanted to try.
> > Klonopin-Effexor-Provigil/Adrafanil-Omega 3
> > But I worry a great deal one of them was right and I've missed the boat entirely, or that I've made a bad choice about the meds, and think about the withdrawal syndromes, and side effects.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
Posted by bob on January 27, 2002, at 20:27:22
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.. » JohnX2, posted by Mr. Scott on January 27, 2002, at 20:17:09
> Thanks John for posting!
>
> Damn..Damn..Damn.. I tried Lamictal and got a rash on my arm.They say some people have to titrate up on Lamictal VERY, VERY slowly (like 12.5mg, or even 7.25mg / week), and that sometimes low doses (like 75mg) are enough for eventual stabilization.
I followed the suggestions in "the kit" which starts you off at 50mg/day, and I got a rash and itching/burning skin big time. I never retried it after that, but my comments are based on what others have said on this bd.
Bob
Posted by sjb on January 28, 2002, at 10:05:00
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.., posted by OldSchool on January 26, 2002, at 12:02:53
Are you still under the care of a pyschiatrist? Do you still take ADs? If no to first question, do you see a neurologist for your scripts?
Posted by mr.scott on January 28, 2002, at 10:13:51
In reply to Re: Last post of it's Kind.., posted by sjb on January 28, 2002, at 10:05:00
I still have a shrink..
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