![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 28. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by paxvox on August 15, 2001, at 11:35:58
In reply to Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
Adamie,
I think, perhaps, you are misunderstanding the psychopharmacology here. Stimulants such as Ritalin and the amphetamines are RARELY if ever used as antidepressants. Only for certain diagnosed disorders such as ADHD and narcolepsy would such meds be appropriate. There are antidepressants (AD) such as Wellbutrin, which I take, that work in a SIMILAR method as stimulants, and are in a different class than the SSRI AD meds. I also would like to know what your Pdoc has diagnosed you as (look at his code on your medical forms) and how long you took SSRI meds before you decided that they would not work for you. With this info, some of the "gurus" on this site can educate you in a hurry.
PAXVOX
Posted by Cressida on August 15, 2001, at 12:19:21
In reply to Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
I abruptly discontinued two ADs because of adverse side effects. My psychiatrist and I jointly agreed to try Remeron SolTab - the first orally disintegrating antidepressant tablet (orange flavored). I also take Adderall twice a day for adult ADD. It improves my concentration and brightens my mood. Stimulant medications like Amphetamines and methylphenidate relieve symptoms associated with ADD/ADHD as soon as you take them. I can't really say if they're beneficial for use in depression. I have read in the literature that CNS stimulants may agravate depressed people. Sometimes, however, they are helpful.
Be prepared to talk about the pros and cons with your doctor. Also, ask he or she about Concerta and Metadate CD, which are two newly FDA approved drugs for attention-deficit disorder. They are interesting candidates because their stimulant effect is designed to last 8-12 hours.
Posted by Hattree on August 15, 2001, at 12:45:13
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by Cressida on August 15, 2001, at 12:19:21
Use of stimulants for depression is not so uncommon. Check Dr. Bob's psychopharmacology tips.
> I abruptly discontinued two ADs because of adverse side effects. My psychiatrist and I jointly agreed to try Remeron SolTab - the first orally disintegrating antidepressant tablet (orange flavored). I also take Adderall twice a day for adult ADD. It improves my concentration and brightens my mood. Stimulant medications like Amphetamines and methylphenidate relieve symptoms associated with ADD/ADHD as soon as you take them. I can't really say if they're beneficial for use in depression. I have read in the literature that CNS stimulants may agravate depressed people. Sometimes, however, they are helpful.
> Be prepared to talk about the pros and cons with your doctor. Also, ask he or she about Concerta and Metadate CD, which are two newly FDA approved drugs for attention-deficit disorder. They are interesting candidates because their stimulant effect is designed to last 8-12 hours.
Posted by Cindylou on August 15, 2001, at 13:27:11
In reply to Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
Hi adamie,
Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.
Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.
Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
Take care,
cindy>
> hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
>
> Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
>
> Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 14:16:58
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » adamie, posted by Cindylou on August 15, 2001, at 13:27:11
Stimulants like Methylphenidate (Ritalin) or Amphetamines (Dexedrine) are used for antidepressant augmentation. They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot. Many docs are afraid of prescribing them because of addiction. In fact it is seldom that persons suffer from a single depression abuse them. It is more common for people suffering from a personality disorder or polytoxicomaniacs..... I think a good respect of this drugs is needed to use them. I tried Ritalin for my strong sedation of Paxil. My experience is mixed. First I tried 2.5 mg in form of the normal tablet. I quickly felt dizziness for a while...then I had a boost of energy and mood...and 4 hours later I crashed (exhaustion, more depressed feelings). Then I tried the slow release tablet (Ritalin SR) and I didnt felt such dizziness....it made me relaxed and more focused. My doc said that you have to try it several days in different dosage. I am still trying (since two weeks) and found 10 mg two to three times daily the best result. I dondt take it every day. The problem with Ritalin is the short half life (2 h) so you have to take it usually 3 (or more) times daily....if not it is possible that you experience ups and dows (energy and mood). To avoid this you can try Amphetamine (Dexedrin) which works longer (half life 7h). it is possible that one works really better for you than the other one...so try perhaps both. Adrafinil and Provigil are options too but there is not such a long experience with this two drugs...newer doesnt mean better....but you could try them too. And they work totally different . I dondt know if (and how) they affect mood.
Good luck
> Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.
>
> Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.
>
> Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.
>
> Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
>
> Take care,
> cindy
>
> >
> > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> >
> > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> >
> > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by Andy123 on August 15, 2001, at 14:32:07
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 14:16:58
>They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot.
Sometimes they lead you down the rumination path instead of down the "lets get stuff done" path. That could be particularly bad for somebody with traits like Adamie's, as he seems to be prone to thinking alot about his condition and theorizing about things....
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:01:46
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » adamie, posted by paxvox on August 15, 2001, at 11:35:58
> Adamie,
>
> I think, perhaps, you are misunderstanding the psychopharmacology here. Stimulants such as Ritalin and the amphetamines are RARELY if ever used as antidepressants. Only for certain diagnosed disorders such as ADHD and narcolepsy would such meds be appropriate. There are antidepressants (AD) such as Wellbutrin, which I take, that work in a SIMILAR method as stimulants, and are in a different class than the SSRI AD meds. I also would like to know what your Pdoc has diagnosed you as (look at his code on your medical forms) and how long you took SSRI meds before you decided that they would not work for you. With this info, some of the "gurus" on this site can educate you in a hurry.
>
> PAXVOXhi. i am back fron the hospital now.
i dunno what she diagnosed me as. My problem is severe lack of emotions, severe inability to concentrate, mind torture which sometimes is mild but sometimes hard to bare, inability to enjoy old activities, little motivation. And this 'mood' goes up and down a bit. but i doubt it has something to do with bipolar. possibly some rare variation. the times when i felt the best during the depression i have not felt normal. as in my normal perfectly happy self. instead I just felt okay enough. able to enjoy some things. able to be very hopeful to get better. my depression is unique since it is caused by accutane.
the mind torture thing i think when my depression was better was not there, instead just the other symptoms remained to a lesser extent. perhaps this is something which is in most types of depression.
Regarding my concentration. It is extremely horrible. It's like being brain dead to an extent. concentration, ability to think, remember. My long term memory has been severely effected. I have known my fiance for 8 months yet I can hardly remember anything about her. Short term memory very bad also. So that is basically how I am. This has gone on for 2 months or longer. When I stopped paxil I was feeling much better 4 days after. so much in fact that I felt I would make a full recovery. I was feeling quite good but of course not normal. It's very frustrating. after 8 days of that it went down suddenly. then up a bit. still able to enjoy things a bit. then worse. worse to the point where I felt I had to take some med again. so i got effexor. this made MUCH worse. I couldn't stand it. I had no fear at all of ECT. I was so desperate. but since stopping effexor I am now a bit better. I hope I keep getting better over the next few days. My depression is very unpredictable and unstable.
so i dunno exactly what this condition i have is. it's deffinetly not like a common depression. My brain could be filled with Accutane and it's metabolites and that could be the problem. Accutane is basically vitamin A. And high amounts of vitamin A have been known to cause bipolar along with other mood disorders. Perhaps I have some type of bipolarity in my depression despite never being in an exciteable, creative, active mood. thanks for replying.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:20:31
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » adamie, posted by Cindylou on August 15, 2001, at 13:27:11
> Hi adamie,
> Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.
>
> Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.it's good to know they work almost right away. I just need to see how much better I could feel even if temporarly with one of these stimulants. Long term use could be ideal for me since my accutane depression is supossed to go away in 6 months or 1 year.
> Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.wellbutrin was one of my choices in the AD category. Actually I think my only choice for I wouldn't want to try anything else except maybe reboxetine despite it's bad reputation. but I'm just worried to try any other AD's since both of the ones I tried so far made me worse. perhaps it's just a seratonin AD problem. I was prescribed Zyprexa though. The pdoc today was unwilling to even consider stimulants until much later on. So I will try to make my family physician prescribe me one. He gave out accutane like candy which nearly killed me. he didn't follow common procedure. surely he could give me a stimulant. that horrible doctor. I will beg if I have to. if not then perhaps seeing another doctor I will have to do. I hope the next few days while I am trying this Zyprexa it does not make me feel worse. that would indicate that I could deffinetly give it a good trail. Effexor made me suicidal. Paxil made me just feel bleh and quite bad. So I will see how zyprexa goes and I hope to augment it soon with a stimulant. thanks for replying. take care.
> Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
>
> Take care,
> cindy
>
> >
> > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> >
> > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> >
> > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:25:12
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 14:16:58
thanks for the info. I hope to get one of these stimulants as soon as I can. I just got zyprexa and if it doesn't have the worsening effect of those seratonin meds then I hope to really stick with it and augment with a stimulant. stimulants may just be temporary relief but that is exactly what I need. temporary relief for 1 year because then my accutane depression should all be gone. it's a depression caused by a medication that goes away over time. so I just need temporary relief now. thanks for the reply.> Stimulants like Methylphenidate (Ritalin) or Amphetamines (Dexedrine) are used for antidepressant augmentation. They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot. Many docs are afraid of prescribing them because of addiction. In fact it is seldom that persons suffer from a single depression abuse them. It is more common for people suffering from a personality disorder or polytoxicomaniacs..... I think a good respect of this drugs is needed to use them. I tried Ritalin for my strong sedation of Paxil. My experience is mixed. First I tried 2.5 mg in form of the normal tablet. I quickly felt dizziness for a while...then I had a boost of energy and mood...and 4 hours later I crashed (exhaustion, more depressed feelings). Then I tried the slow release tablet (Ritalin SR) and I didnt felt such dizziness....it made me relaxed and more focused. My doc said that you have to try it several days in different dosage. I am still trying (since two weeks) and found 10 mg two to three times daily the best result. I dondt take it every day. The problem with Ritalin is the short half life (2 h) so you have to take it usually 3 (or more) times daily....if not it is possible that you experience ups and dows (energy and mood). To avoid this you can try Amphetamine (Dexedrin) which works longer (half life 7h). it is possible that one works really better for you than the other one...so try perhaps both. Adrafinil and Provigil are options too but there is not such a long experience with this two drugs...newer doesnt mean better....but you could try them too. And they work totally different . I dondt know if (and how) they affect mood.
> Good luck
> > Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.
> >
> > Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.
> >
> > Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.
> >
> > Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
> >
> > Take care,
> > cindy
> >
> > >
> > > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> > >
> > > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> > >
> > > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:30:32
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by Andy123 on August 15, 2001, at 14:32:07
> >They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot.
>
> Sometimes they lead you down the rumination path instead of down the "lets get stuff done" path. That could be particularly bad for somebody with traits like Adamie's, as he seems to be prone to thinking alot about his condition and theorizing about things....with the occasional very extreme severeity of my condition it's only natural for me to worry and theorize. I figure stimulants are deffinetly worth a try. if they improve concentration (along with mood) then that could be quite a big improvement. perhaps most of my symptoms are due to my severe lack of ability to think and concentrate. so I feel stimulants could work very well despite being temporary relief. and that is what I need temporary relief for 6 months or 1 year until my accutane depression all goes away which is how this specific depression works. it eventually does go away. so I hope to augment my zyprexa which I just got with a stimulant if I can get one.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:33:22
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by Cressida on August 15, 2001, at 12:19:21
> I abruptly discontinued two ADs because of adverse side effects. My psychiatrist and I jointly agreed to try Remeron SolTab - the first orally disintegrating antidepressant tablet (orange flavored). I also take Adderall twice a day for adult ADD. It improves my concentration and brightens my mood. Stimulant medications like Amphetamines and methylphenidate relieve symptoms associated with ADD/ADHD as soon as you take them. I can't really say if they're beneficial for use in depression. I have read in the literature that CNS stimulants may agravate depressed people. Sometimes, however, they are helpful.
> Be prepared to talk about the pros and cons with your doctor. Also, ask he or she about Concerta and Metadate CD, which are two newly FDA approved drugs for attention-deficit disorder. They are interesting candidates because their stimulant effect is designed to last 8-12 hours.thanks for replying. the fact that they work well for concentration is reason enough I should try a stimulant for my concentration is horrible due to the depression. If I cant convince the doc for depression use then perhaps mentioning how severe my lack of concentration is could do it. i hope he does prescribe it. thanks for the suggestion of stimulants. I will add those 2 to the list.
Posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 16:14:02
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » ben, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 15:25:12
Why do yo take Zyprexa ....or depression? Alone or i combo with other meds ? Zyprexa primary for psychosis like schizophrenia and it has some antidepressant properities. I tried it too but only 2.5 mg at night knocked me out...too much sedation ! I had the expierence that antipsychotics like Zyprexa or Fluanxol (Flupentixol) made me indifferent...I didnt like this feeling. I know that there are people having great success with Zyprexa but everyone reacts as an individual. I would rather try other AD... perhaps an old tricyclic compund which acts on noradrenaline (because of your bad reaction on ssris) like desipramine or nortryptiline. Reboxetine (Edronax / Vestra) could be an option too. Tried it with limited success....very good on cognitive function (concentration) and energy (for me like a real stimulant)....but the effect on mood pooped out very quickly.
Dont give up ! I go through the same anoying and fustrating process of trying and trying meds......I am sure you will find one or a combo which works for you....perhaps it is Zyprexa, no one knows it in prieview !
Good luck !> thanks for the info. I hope to get one of these stimulants as soon as I can. I just got zyprexa and if it doesn't have the worsening effect of those seratonin meds then I hope to really stick with it and augment with a stimulant. stimulants may just be temporary relief but that is exactly what I need. temporary relief for 1 year because then my accutane depression should all be gone. it's a depression caused by a medication that goes away over time. so I just need temporary relief now. thanks for the reply.
>
> > Stimulants like Methylphenidate (Ritalin) or Amphetamines (Dexedrine) are used for antidepressant augmentation. They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot. Many docs are afraid of prescribing them because of addiction. In fact it is seldom that persons suffer from a single depression abuse them. It is more common for people suffering from a personality disorder or polytoxicomaniacs..... I think a good respect of this drugs is needed to use them. I tried Ritalin for my strong sedation of Paxil. My experience is mixed. First I tried 2.5 mg in form of the normal tablet. I quickly felt dizziness for a while...then I had a boost of energy and mood...and 4 hours later I crashed (exhaustion, more depressed feelings). Then I tried the slow release tablet (Ritalin SR) and I didnt felt such dizziness....it made me relaxed and more focused. My doc said that you have to try it several days in different dosage. I am still trying (since two weeks) and found 10 mg two to three times daily the best result. I dondt take it every day. The problem with Ritalin is the short half life (2 h) so you have to take it usually 3 (or more) times daily....if not it is possible that you experience ups and dows (energy and mood). To avoid this you can try Amphetamine (Dexedrin) which works longer (half life 7h). it is possible that one works really better for you than the other one...so try perhaps both. Adrafinil and Provigil are options too but there is not such a long experience with this two drugs...newer doesnt mean better....but you could try them too. And they work totally different . I dondt know if (and how) they affect mood.
> > Good luck
> > > Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.
> > >
> > > Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.
> > >
> > > Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.
> > >
> > > Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > cindy
> > >
> > > >
> > > > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> > > >
> > > > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> > > >
> > > > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 16:43:25
In reply to Re: why Zyprexa ?, posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 16:14:02
> Why do yo take Zyprexa ....or depression? Alone or i combo with other meds ? Zyprexa primary for psychosis like schizophrenia and it has some antidepressant properities. I tried it too but only 2.5 mg at night knocked me out...too much sedation ! I had the expierence that antipsychotics like Zyprexa or Fluanxol (Flupentixol) made me indifferent...I didnt like this feeling.
hi. I made zyprexa my choice instead of another AD because perhaps AD's just dont work well for me. But I guess it could be just ssri's. Regardless I have read some good things about zyprexa. How it's supossed to be good for restoring emotions. Sedation I dont like because the depression makes me sleep well enough (naturally I would have an active mind and therefor natural insomnia) but I'm will to accept that if the Zyprexa can work very well. The only thing that matters is for me to feel better. Zyprexa works for dopamine and norepinephrine. So instead of trying wellbutrin I chose this for the fact that zyprexa can cause weight gain as apossed to wellbutrin which can cause quite a bit of weight loss. If it weren't for that then maybe I would have picked wellbutrin. I certainly need stimulation. Due to my depression I sometimes lose a lot of weight so I really could go anorexic with wellbutrin. Trying another class than AD's could be the thing for me. I certainly hope to see my condition not made worse by zyprexa in the coming days. Because that is exactly what those two seratonin meds did. If zyprexa doesn't make me worse then perhaps it has a great chance of making me much better in some weeks. I will try my first dose in a few hours. I am started at 5mg and the doctors at the hospital said if I tolerate it well they will increase the dose to 10mg for friday. I have tolerated paxil and effexor well so no exception should be seen here. but perhaps side effects would be a good indication the zyprexa could work.
I did have only very few side effects from effexor. Effexor the first dose I took made me feel detached from the world and everything was dark. It was quite scary. Aside from that which was generally a worsening of depression it gave me mild ringing in my left ear. this only happened one day for very little time. no other side effects except effects from worsening depression which has been severe drop in appetite, feeling extra horrible, suicidal (considering ECT as soon as possible it made me feel), and other such symptoms.
the paxil just made me numb and made me feel bad overall. stopping made my mood much better. I was really amazed. such a huge improvement. it's strange how these meds have been for me.
so I will see how this Zyprexa goes. Perhaps side effects would be good. indicating it could make me better.
>I know that there are people having great success with Zyprexa but everyone reacts as an individual. I would rather try other AD... perhaps an old tricyclic compund which acts on noradrenaline (because of your bad reaction on ssris) like desipramine or nortryptiline.
Despite me not wanting to try other AD's Despiramine I seen on an informative website acts slightly for seratonin also. Perhaps this is not true but I dont want to take any chances. And AD's in general I am not considering for now due to the previous bad experience.
>Reboxetine (Edronax / Vestra) could be an option too. Tried it with limited success....very good on cognitive function (concentration) and energy (for me like a real stimulant)....but the effect on mood pooped out very quickly.
this is exactly why I wanted to try reboxetine. but the pdoc earlier told me how it can be very sedating and just not effective in general. and she convinced me to try effexor. oh well. I exactly need much improved concentration. reboxetine would have been a choice. but for now I dunno what would be next for me if zyprexa fails or i cannot get stimulants. but no no. zyprexa must must work. me hopes it does.
> Dont give up ! I go through the same anoying and fustrating process of trying and trying meds......I am sure you will find one or a combo which works for you....perhaps it is Zyprexa, no one knows it in prieview !
> Good luck !thanks for the reply. take care.
> > thanks for the info. I hope to get one of these stimulants as soon as I can. I just got zyprexa and if it doesn't have the worsening effect of those seratonin meds then I hope to really stick with it and augment with a stimulant. stimulants may just be temporary relief but that is exactly what I need. temporary relief for 1 year because then my accutane depression should all be gone. it's a depression caused by a medication that goes away over time. so I just need temporary relief now. thanks for the reply.
> >
> > > Stimulants like Methylphenidate (Ritalin) or Amphetamines (Dexedrine) are used for antidepressant augmentation. They dont really have antidepressant action but noth can give you energy to do your stuff instead of sitting around an ruminating....and that could be worth a lot. Many docs are afraid of prescribing them because of addiction. In fact it is seldom that persons suffer from a single depression abuse them. It is more common for people suffering from a personality disorder or polytoxicomaniacs..... I think a good respect of this drugs is needed to use them. I tried Ritalin for my strong sedation of Paxil. My experience is mixed. First I tried 2.5 mg in form of the normal tablet. I quickly felt dizziness for a while...then I had a boost of energy and mood...and 4 hours later I crashed (exhaustion, more depressed feelings). Then I tried the slow release tablet (Ritalin SR) and I didnt felt such dizziness....it made me relaxed and more focused. My doc said that you have to try it several days in different dosage. I am still trying (since two weeks) and found 10 mg two to three times daily the best result. I dondt take it every day. The problem with Ritalin is the short half life (2 h) so you have to take it usually 3 (or more) times daily....if not it is possible that you experience ups and dows (energy and mood). To avoid this you can try Amphetamine (Dexedrin) which works longer (half life 7h). it is possible that one works really better for you than the other one...so try perhaps both. Adrafinil and Provigil are options too but there is not such a long experience with this two drugs...newer doesnt mean better....but you could try them too. And they work totally different . I dondt know if (and how) they affect mood.
> > > Good luck
> > > > Stimulants work right away -- you'll know within an hour or two how it works for you. I have found that Ritilan causes me rebound depression -- when the effect of it wears off (in about 3 or 4 hours) my depression is worse. Taking more just makes things worse -- each time I took it, it worked less and made me more depressed.
> > > >
> > > > Adderall does not have that same effect on me because it is longer acting. It helps my concentration and gives me energy. It also kicks in right away, and lasts about 6 hours or so. I am not taking it alone, however -- I am also taking Prozac, and will be adding Buspar to help with agitation. I'm not convinced that Adderall alone could help my depression.
> > > >
> > > > Wellbutrin is a good option to try, as someone else mentioned ... it is an antidepressant but not an SSRI, and it is more stimulating that many of the SSRIs. Effexor was horrible for me too, by the way.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck! I know how hard it is to keep searching for the right thing. I've been searching for a long time now, but I keep getting closer to the right "mix" for me.
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > > cindy
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> > > > >
> > > > > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 18:14:32
In reply to Re: why Zyprexa ?, posted by ben on August 15, 2001, at 16:14:02
I just found out the zyprexa works for dopamine AND partly for seratonin. At least that is what is mentioned at the official site. I thought it was for dopamine and norepinephrine! I will see how I feel the next few dayssss.
Posted by JohnL on August 15, 2001, at 18:17:37
In reply to Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
>
> hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
>
> Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
>
> Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.I've tried all the stimulants. We all react differently, so one cannot predict their own response based on someone else's response. That being said, the best stimulant of all for me is Adrafinil. Quite a few people here have tried it and liked it, more so than Ritalin or Adderall. Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying Adrafinil is better that Ritalin or Adderall, but I am saying that in the archives here you will find more people who liked Adrafinil than the other two. Adrafinil has been a life saver to me, along with basic minimum dose Prozac and minimum dose Zyprexa. This particular three way combo is absolutely amazing.
John
Posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 18:41:26
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by JohnL on August 15, 2001, at 18:17:37
> >
> > hi everyone. Before persueing such things as VNS for depression I am willing to try stimulants if I am able to get them from my stubborn pdoc.
> >
> > Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days? Maybe less? I have tried two seratonin medications and there is no doubt in my mind that they made me worse. While on effexor thoughts of hopelessness and possible suicide were extremely high. My heart was beating so fast that I actually had some heart pain. Off the effexor I am feeling better.
> >
> > Due to my bad experience with AD's so far I really want to try stimulants as a few people have suggested. Which are the best stimulants that could be easy to get for depression? If my pdoc wont prescribe me then I will try to get one from my family physician. So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont know if there are better ones for depression.
>
> I've tried all the stimulants. We all react differently, so one cannot predict their own response based on someone else's response. That being said, the best stimulant of all for me is Adrafinil. Quite a few people here have tried it and liked it, more so than Ritalin or Adderall. Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying Adrafinil is better that Ritalin or Adderall, but I am saying that in the archives here you will find more people who liked Adrafinil than the other two. Adrafinil has been a life saver to me, along with basic minimum dose Prozac and minimum dose Zyprexa. This particular three way combo is absolutely amazing.
> Johnhi john. too bad adrafinil has to be imported. I will try really hard to get ritalin, adderall or others though. I HOPE that doctor prescribed them. the same doctor who almost killed me (passed out the accutane like candy).
I am on zyprexa now by the way. I just took my first 5mg dose a few minutes ago. if it doesn't make me feel worse like those two seratonin meds I will keep continuing it, perhaps it could work very well.
Posted by Cindylou on August 15, 2001, at 20:35:55
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by JohnL on August 15, 2001, at 18:17:37
Hi JohnL --
Welcome back! Since you mentioned Adrafinil here, I wanted to get your opinion on how Adrafinil + Prozac + Buspar might work ...I am currently on 10 mg Prozac plus Wellbutrin, but have been quite agitated ... I experimented with Aderall in place of the Wellbutrin, and it helped me focus better, but I still had the agitation.
I take Klonapin ocassionally to help with that, but have heard that Buspar and Prozac work well together.
What are your thoughts on adding Adrafinil to the Buspar + Prozac mix, instead of Aderall or Wellbutrin?
Thanks so much for your reply,
cindy
> I've tried all the stimulants. We all react differently, so one cannot predict their own response based on someone else's response. That being said, the best stimulant of all for me is Adrafinil. Quite a few people here have tried it and liked it, more so than Ritalin or Adderall. Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying Adrafinil is better that Ritalin or Adderall, but I am saying that in the archives here you will find more people who liked Adrafinil than the other two. Adrafinil has been a life saver to me, along with basic minimum dose Prozac and minimum dose Zyprexa. This particular three way combo is absolutely amazing.
> John
Posted by k9lover on August 15, 2001, at 21:17:56
In reply to Re: why Zyprexa ? » ben, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 18:14:32
hmmm. I've had great luck with Zyprexa for sedating purposes. In combo with Restoril, it was my cocktail of choice for REM sleep without interferring with Paxil. Once the Restoril stopped working though, there was no use in carrying on with the Zyprexa.
It was THEN that my pdoc expressed some concern about the lack of long-term studies on Zyprexa and it's potential to cause Parkinson-like tremours, which I'm not interested in acquiring.
Just my 2 cents...
>
> I just found out the zyprexa works for dopamine AND partly for seratonin. At least that is what is mentioned at the official site. I thought it was for dopamine and norepinephrine! I will see how I feel the next few dayssss.
Posted by Zo on August 16, 2001, at 1:20:54
In reply to Stimulants take how long to work?, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 11:05:50
> Stimulants such as Ritalin and Adderall are supossed to be fast acting for depression correct? As in even in a few days?
Try the same day. And take them first thing in the a.m.!
> So far I am thinking Ritalin and Adderall but I dont >know if there are better ones for depression.
Adderall is wonderful, smoooth, easy up, easy down. . .if it doesn't make you too anxious, which it usually does me.
Dexedrine is usually the drug of choice for adults. . .and it hits a certain target in my brain no antidepressant can touch. I will be on it forever.
Zo
Posted by JohnL on August 16, 2001, at 2:26:08
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » JohnL, posted by adamie on August 15, 2001, at 18:41:26
> hi john. too bad adrafinil has to be imported. I will try really hard to get ritalin, adderall or others though. I HOPE that doctor prescribed them. the same doctor who almost killed me (passed out the accutane like candy).
>
> I am on zyprexa now by the way. I just took my first 5mg dose a few minutes ago. if it doesn't make me feel worse like those two seratonin meds I will keep continuing it, perhaps it could work very well.Hi Adamie,
I just wanted to comment that when I started Zyprexa it was at a dose of 2.5mg. I simply cut the 5mg pill in half with a knife. I think if I had taken a full 5mg I might not have stayed with it. It probably would have been too sedating for me and scared me off. 2.5mg was a much easier way to start. I adjusted in about a week, and then upped the dose to 5mg after I was accustomed to 2.5mg. So if you happen to find 5mg is too much for any reason, you can cut it in half.
John
Posted by JohnL on August 16, 2001, at 2:39:14
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? » JohnL, posted by Cindylou on August 15, 2001, at 20:35:55
Hi Cindy,
You ask a good question, and I must admit I don't know the answer. If I did have an answer, it would probably be a little biased because I am not a fan of Buspar. For me it was lousy, and there aren't too many people that have been helped a great deal by it. It's one of those drugs that looks great on paper, but in the real world doesn't seem to pan out all that often. But like my psychiatrist always told me, anything is possible.If your symptoms are somehow related to a norepinephrine deficiency or malfunction of some kind, Buspar and Adrafinil could possibly work well. That's because Buspar's metabolite acts on stimulating NE, and Adrafinil will further enhance that. If you try it, consider starting just one at a time. Stay with one for 2 or 3 weeks before adding the second. Sometimes when two drugs are started at the same time it's hard to know which one is causing which side effects, etc. And if you have any lousy experiences, you won't know which drug is the cause if they are started at the same time. It's much easier to make comparisons and to judge what's going on when they are started one at a time.
John> Hi JohnL --
> Welcome back! Since you mentioned Adrafinil here, I wanted to get your opinion on how Adrafinil + Prozac + Buspar might work ...
>
> I am currently on 10 mg Prozac plus Wellbutrin, but have been quite agitated ... I experimented with Aderall in place of the Wellbutrin, and it helped me focus better, but I still had the agitation.
>
> I take Klonapin ocassionally to help with that, but have heard that Buspar and Prozac work well together.
>
> What are your thoughts on adding Adrafinil to the Buspar + Prozac mix, instead of Aderall or Wellbutrin?
>
> Thanks so much for your reply,
> cindy
>
>
> > I've tried all the stimulants. We all react differently, so one cannot predict their own response based on someone else's response. That being said, the best stimulant of all for me is Adrafinil. Quite a few people here have tried it and liked it, more so than Ritalin or Adderall. Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying Adrafinil is better that Ritalin or Adderall, but I am saying that in the archives here you will find more people who liked Adrafinil than the other two. Adrafinil has been a life saver to me, along with basic minimum dose Prozac and minimum dose Zyprexa. This particular three way combo is absolutely amazing.
> > John
Posted by Cindylou on August 16, 2001, at 6:39:21
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? Cindy, posted by JohnL on August 16, 2001, at 2:39:14
Thanks for the info, John! So glad you're on this board :)
-cindy> Hi Cindy,
> You ask a good question, and I must admit I don't know the answer. If I did have an answer, it would probably be a little biased because I am not a fan of Buspar. For me it was lousy, and there aren't too many people that have been helped a great deal by it. It's one of those drugs that looks great on paper, but in the real world doesn't seem to pan out all that often. But like my psychiatrist always told me, anything is possible.
>
> If your symptoms are somehow related to a norepinephrine deficiency or malfunction of some kind, Buspar and Adrafinil could possibly work well. That's because Buspar's metabolite acts on stimulating NE, and Adrafinil will further enhance that. If you try it, consider starting just one at a time. Stay with one for 2 or 3 weeks before adding the second. Sometimes when two drugs are started at the same time it's hard to know which one is causing which side effects, etc. And if you have any lousy experiences, you won't know which drug is the cause if they are started at the same time. It's much easier to make comparisons and to judge what's going on when they are started one at a time.
> John
>
> > Hi JohnL --
> > Welcome back! Since you mentioned Adrafinil here, I wanted to get your opinion on how Adrafinil + Prozac + Buspar might work ...
> >
> > I am currently on 10 mg Prozac plus Wellbutrin, but have been quite agitated ... I experimented with Aderall in place of the Wellbutrin, and it helped me focus better, but I still had the agitation.
> >
> > I take Klonapin ocassionally to help with that, but have heard that Buspar and Prozac work well together.
> >
> > What are your thoughts on adding Adrafinil to the Buspar + Prozac mix, instead of Aderall or Wellbutrin?
> >
> > Thanks so much for your reply,
> > cindy
> >
> >
> > > I've tried all the stimulants. We all react differently, so one cannot predict their own response based on someone else's response. That being said, the best stimulant of all for me is Adrafinil. Quite a few people here have tried it and liked it, more so than Ritalin or Adderall. Please don't misunderstand. I am not saying Adrafinil is better that Ritalin or Adderall, but I am saying that in the archives here you will find more people who liked Adrafinil than the other two. Adrafinil has been a life saver to me, along with basic minimum dose Prozac and minimum dose Zyprexa. This particular three way combo is absolutely amazing.
> > > John
Posted by adamie on August 16, 2001, at 15:42:58
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? Adamie, posted by JohnL on August 16, 2001, at 2:26:08
>
> > hi john. too bad adrafinil has to be imported. I will try really hard to get ritalin, adderall or others though. I HOPE that doctor prescribed them. the same doctor who almost killed me (passed out the accutane like candy).
> >
> > I am on zyprexa now by the way. I just took my first 5mg dose a few minutes ago. if it doesn't make me feel worse like those two seratonin meds I will keep continuing it, perhaps it could work very well.
>
> Hi Adamie,
> I just wanted to comment that when I started Zyprexa it was at a dose of 2.5mg. I simply cut the 5mg pill in half with a knife. I think if I had taken a full 5mg I might not have stayed with it. It probably would have been too sedating for me and scared me off. 2.5mg was a much easier way to start. I adjusted in about a week, and then upped the dose to 5mg after I was accustomed to 2.5mg. So if you happen to find 5mg is too much for any reason, you can cut it in half.
> Johnhi john. the 5mg was extremely sedating 2 hours after taking. it was 7pm when i took it last night. and the sedation lasted until 3pm today. But it should go down. the sedation. I need the zyprexa as an AD. The pdoc before said we could raise it to 10mg... would 5mg be enough for good anti depressant effect?
perhaps taking it with wellbutrin would be good. and a stimulant along with them.
Posted by JohnL on August 17, 2001, at 18:45:30
In reply to Re: Stimulants take how long to work? Adamie » JohnL, posted by adamie on August 16, 2001, at 15:42:58
> hi john. the 5mg was extremely sedating 2 hours after taking. it was 7pm when i took it last night. and the sedation lasted until 3pm today. But it should go down. the sedation. I need the zyprexa as an AD. The pdoc before said we could raise it to 10mg... would 5mg be enough for good anti depressant effect?
>
> perhaps taking it with wellbutrin would be good. and a stimulant along with them.Hi Adamie,
There isn't any concrete dosage of Zyprexa that I am aware for depression. But just based on my own anecdotal observations I think the doses are in the 2.5mg to 10mg range. I take 5mg. But I also must admit that as much as I like Zyprexa, I am not so sure about its ability to be a stand alone antidepressant. I think it instead is a wonderful companion to turbocharge an antidepressant. For some strange reason it seems to go especially well with Prozac, and there have been clinical studies done in that area that look very interesting and promising. My favorite all star combo though involves an antidepressant (preferably Prozac), Zyprexa (sometimes Risperdal instead), and a stimulant (Adrafinil is especially special with Prozac and/or Zyprexa).The sedation you are experiencing will diminish, so don't let that discourage you. If it is just too much, then take a sharp knife and cut the pill in half to make 2.5mg. Get used to that first before going back to 5mg. Don't worry if you can't cut the pieces exactly, they don't have to be real accurate. But just cut them one at a time as needed. Don't cut a bunch in advance, as the inside can degrade once exposed to air. In the meantime, consider starting 2.5mg to 10mg Prozac (mix the contents of a capsule in orange juice and drink custom size doses, saving the rest in the fridge for next time, stir well each time), and order some Adrafinil. If I sound overly confident about this combination, it is because I am indeed very confident about it. Mileage does vary of course, but I have to admit that if we view this whole thing as a hit and miss game, the odds are dramatically in your favor with such a combo.
John
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