![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mr. Scott on August 12, 2001, at 23:16:53
When you're new to this whole Psychiatry game, and totally freaking out with Major depression and Panic or whatever, meds can be wonderful. But After 11 years on virtually every psychiatric medication available outside of the antipsychotics my conclusion is that in general they suck, and cause at least as many problems as they address.Dysthymia and chronic anxiety (my ills) are virtually untreatable conditions over the long haul, despite what physicians and pharmaceutical companies may say.
I have had better luck with alcohol and speed for the short-term relief of my chronic anxiety and chronic mild depression than anything currently marketed in the US as well as several molecules only available outside the US.
Anyone considering treatment for these above mentioned conditions should really think twice before wasting a lot of money and time on drug therapy, and instead look elsewhere for relief. Probably to psychotherapy, or making changes in ones life to accomodate these conditions.
And mind you it is just as bad to have these conditions as any of the more serious ills. These conditions are more insidious, chronic, and also invisible to a world who looks on wondering what is wrong with you.
The drug companies who are valuable albeit driven exclusively by profit need to focus on these "lesser" disorders not only for my sake and maybe yours, but also because it will be good business.
Until that time comes, I will no longer be looking for solutions in prescription molecules, and have discontinued all antidepressants leaving in place only an as needed tranquilizer.
Yes, for all it's boasting about how far psychiatry has come in terms of treating the mild chronic conditions I and so many others face. A tranquilizer and a stimulant (aka a goofball) are all that modern medicine has to offer this anxious dysthymic.
Posted by Zo on August 13, 2001, at 0:06:16
In reply to The Truth, posted by Mr. Scott on August 12, 2001, at 23:16:53
Well then I guess we won't be seeing you on this board.
Good luck,
Zo
Posted by stjames on August 13, 2001, at 1:12:36
In reply to The Truth, posted by Mr. Scott on August 12, 2001, at 23:16:53
But After 11 years on virtually every psychiatric medication available outside of the antipsychotics my conclusion is that in general they suck, and cause at least as many problems as they address.
James here....
I have been 17 years on meds and find quite the opposite.
j
Posted by pennie lane on August 13, 2001, at 2:39:15
In reply to Re: The Truth, posted by stjames on August 13, 2001, at 1:12:36
>then I guess we won't be seeing you on this board
Can you say amphetamine?
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 12:44:14
In reply to Re: The Truth, posted by stjames on August 13, 2001, at 1:12:36
I wish I had your success in this area..
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 12:45:36
In reply to Re: The Best Mixed Amphetamine Salts = Adderall, posted by pennie lane on August 13, 2001, at 2:39:15
Interesting.. Won't I crash and burn though on the down turn?
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 12:46:27
In reply to Re: The Truth » Mr. Scott, posted by Zo on August 13, 2001, at 0:06:16
> Well then I guess we won't be seeing you on this board.
>
> Good luck,
> ZoI should only be so lucky.
Posted by pennie lane on August 13, 2001, at 13:29:00
In reply to Re: The Best Mixed Amphetamine Salts = Adderall, posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 12:45:36
> Interesting.. Won't I crash and burn though on the down turn?
Your chances might be better with a prescription amphetamine because the purity and actual dosage is more reliable. On the other hand, with a street version of the same chemical, you might be more likely to get the dosage you want - if the doc's preferred dosage is too weak for you needs. Your license pdoc is less likely to give you the combination of amphetamine and barbituate you probably call goofball. At the doctor, you are more likely to get amphetamine and an SSRI, unless you report just the right symptoms and don't let on that you are a potential abuser (somebody who gets drugs on the street).The chances of a crash and burn might be more or less, either way, depending on your circumstances. The chances of being socialized to unhealthy attitudes while acquiring your meds are probably somewhat greater in the illegal market than in the licensed markets - you should get better support in a clinical setting, but that is not always the case, depending on the clinic and who you might go to for illegal amphetamine.
It has long bothered me that middle class kids whose parents have health insurance can get daily doses of amphetamine under a doctor's care, whereas poor kids with no access to health care tend to be treated as juvenile delinquents when they turn to their neighborhood dealer for a similar drug. I'm not commenting here on the efficacy of the drug from either source, mind you. I prefer strong coffee for my daily sympathomemetic.
At any rate, amphetamine, barbituate and alcohol are a potentially dangerous combination. Eventually, an error in dosage or a social conflict resulting from drugs effect and the company you keep while getting and using the drugs might lead to tragic consequences. Then there is the risk of felony prosecution, too.
Posted by AVR on August 13, 2001, at 17:06:56
In reply to Re: The Best Mixed Amphetamine Salts = Adderall, posted by pennie lane on August 13, 2001, at 13:29:00
I also have dysthymia and chronic anxiety and have been on the legal meds out there and too found that alcohol and hard street drugs worked better. What is an amphetamine? I've heard the term methanphetamines before. What is the difference between amphetamine and srris etc.
thanks
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 17:09:15
In reply to The Truth, posted by Mr. Scott on August 12, 2001, at 23:16:53
>
>I'll give another suggestion that is not first on the minds of most pdocs: buprenorphine. Several people on this board have had great successs with in; it is available in sublingal form off the internet or in liquid form to use intranasally in this country by prescription. It is a partial opiate, and supposedly does not make you high, or create a tolerance. I've never tried it because I am being given another opiate from my pdoc. If you do decide to try buprenorphine, it might be best to combine it with an AD, but I don't think you necessarily have to.Anyway, just my .02, because I hope you can feel better. You might want to do a search about it on BP; there are also a few abstracts from studies on depression and buprenorphine on the internet.
Shelli
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 17:45:13
In reply to Re: The Truth » Mr. Scott, posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 17:09:15
Don't you see all those people out there who are comfortable in their own skin. They look happy to be at work, excited about the future, and have few regrets about the past. They seek out activities that they get enjoyment from. They don't need to slug down a couple of drinks to be sociable and happy amongst others. Now I know they too have real life skeleton's in their closets and all kinds of issues I can't see. But I know for a fact that at least 85% of them are not preocupied by sad and fearful feelings.
I don't remember what it is like to look forward to something. I would rather hide and go to sleep than face the world each day. That just isn't right. If I don't get feeling better, when I die my life will have amounted to what people around my death bed can tell me it amounted to, because I will not have been able to feel it and know it. My experience for many years now has been a grey one. I just push myself through the motions because I'm supposed to. Because I have to pay the bills. I feel likea lazy fool on one hand but hope on the other that maybe, just maybe something will change. I have NO desire to do anything anymore except watch TV. Now in truth some days aren't so bad, but some days are also much worse.
Now bear in mind, besides the annoymous posters on this board there is but one person outside of my shrink who would ever hear me mutter these things. The rest of the world either thinks I'm okay, or just doesn't care. This is a place for me to complain and hopefully get some feedback.Do you think Amphetamine and Buprenorphine are worth investigating for this?
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 18:48:55
In reply to Follow up to replies, posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 17:45:13
> Do you think Amphetamine and Buprenorphine are worth investigating for this?absolutely; you have more to gain than to lose, in my estimation. I think especially with amphetamines you might pick an AD to have in your body; I would pick the one with the least side effects. I was told to do that with opiates, also, but since buprenorphine is a partial antagnist opiate receptors, I don't know if it's necessary. I do know one person on the board who is using it, does feel it's best if she is combining it with an AD to have a smoother transition period since bup is a short lasting drug. As far as amphetamines, I don't like how they make me feel, although concerta (long lasting ritalin) felt the smoothest to me. I couldn't tolerate adderall, regular ritalin, or dexadrine. There's a doctor named Jenson (can't remember his first name) in CA who's written a book about how to test meds for yourself, and I understand he has a lot of options that are generally not considered. Also two people on the board have had consults with him with very good results, only he is no longer doing phone consultations. You have to get his book now, or go to CA. It might be worth it, to buy his book, if you really want to put one more surge of energy into exploring meds for your depression/apathy.
But you'd have to convince yourself that you want to do this. It's hard to try different meds in the hope that one will help you, but to me it beats having a joyless life. Good luck whatever you decide.
Shelli
Posted by JahL on August 13, 2001, at 19:34:13
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » Mr.Scott, posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 18:48:55
> >There's a doctor named Jenson (can't remember his first name) in CA who's written a book about how to test meds for yourself, and I understand he has a lot of options that are generally not considered. Also two people on the board have had consults with him with very good results, only he is no longer doing phone consultations. You have to get his book now, or go to CA. It might be worth it, to buy his book, if you really want to put one more surge of energy into exploring meds for your depression/apathy.
Hi Shelli.
There's probably some merit to Jensen's "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" approach & I'm with you on exploring unconventional meds. I would be dead but for this approach. However I *wouldn't* recommend anyone gets the aforementioned guy as their personal pdoc. Trust me on this one....
Meanwhile I may've found a way to trial Buph. myself....
BTW Jensen does not endorse *any* use of opioids, though in his book he does recognise that the opiod receptor system may have a part to play in depression (?!).
Parnate going OK?
J.
Posted by DP on August 13, 2001, at 20:30:20
In reply to The Truth, posted by Mr. Scott on August 12, 2001, at 23:16:53
I'm sorry but I'm really going to have to agree with Scott. I, also, have been treated for depression and chronic anxiety (GAD?) using *LOTS* of different meds. None of them worked as well as my "tina" and alcohol combo.
It's helluva lot cheaper than prescription meds.
It's too bad that the use of methamphetamines is contraindicated in those who use my particular AD that I'm taking right now.
Jimmy
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 21:33:14
In reply to Re: The Truth » Mr. Scott, posted by DP on August 13, 2001, at 20:30:20
>
> It's too bad that the use of methamphetamines is contraindicated in those who use my particular AD that I'm taking right now.
>
> JimmyJimmy what AD are you taking now?
Shelli
Posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 21:47:51
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » shelliR, posted by JahL on August 13, 2001, at 19:34:13
> > >There's a doctor named Jenson (can't remember his first name) in CA who's written a book about how to test meds for yourself, and I understand he has a lot of options that are generally not considered. Also two people on the board have had consults with him with very good results, only he is no longer doing phone consultations. You have to get his book now, or go to CA. It might be worth it, to buy his book, if you really want to put one more surge of energy into exploring meds for your depression/apathy.
>
> Hi Shelli.
>
> There's probably some merit to Jensen's "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" approach & I'm with you on exploring unconventional meds. I would be dead but for this approach. However I *wouldn't* recommend anyone gets the aforementioned guy as their personal pdoc. Trust me on this one....So you've actually been to see the man himself ?
Is he like the wizard of oz? < g >
The two people I know of who really like him did phone consultations.
> Meanwhile I may've found a way to trial Buph. myself....Can't you just order it off the internet? I know the sublingual type is available there.
>> BTW Jensen does not endorse *any* use of opioids, though in his book he does recognise that the opiod receptor system may have a part to play in depression (?!).
Does he advise not to use them, or just ignores the topic?
> Parnate going OK?
The parnate sucks, so far. I was really excited at 10mg, no side effects. But when I went 15 I felt not great, and then at 20, I sleep away all of the last weekend, and was sick in my stomach. Today I went back down to 10, but tomorrow I should try 15 for a few days. I'm discouraged because I don't generally adjust to drugs that I don't take to right at the start. Nardil took a long time to work for me, but aside from afternoon fatique and needing meds to sleep, I had none of that whole body tiredness or stomach sickness that I am getting above 10mg of Parnate. So I'm really discouraged. Pdoc upped the oxycontin to let me take a 10mg prn, and so far I've taken the extra every day. I'd like to also look into buprenorphine because obviously I am getting acclimated to the oxycontin; 10mg used to blow me to nirvana for the first month.
I hate wasting time on things that don't work. My next plan (if I can't tolerate the parnate, or it doesn't work) is to go back to nardil and combine it with either buph or concerta. I'll have to discuss that with my pdoc, who is now away for his August vacation.I am getting ready to go to New Mexico in a few weeks; last year I didn't end up going because of depression. This year I am definitely going, but I can't believe I have made no progress in a year. I guess I am lucky that nardil worked for so many years for me, although to be really honest I am not feeling very lucky right now.
Glad you're thinking of bup, please keep me informed.
Take care, Shelli
Posted by Zo on August 14, 2001, at 2:42:21
In reply to Follow up to replies, posted by Mr.Scott on August 13, 2001, at 17:45:13
I'm sorry that my first response may have seemed flip, but there was something about your attitude, in your original post, and my reply was not meant to be flip -- but to shock you back onto yourself, onto the choice that lies within you. .and I don't think anybody can give that to you. You do know, your story, painful as it is, is *nothing*, *nothing* compared to many of the lives here, including my own. There's something missing, and I'm not sure what it is . .and I'm glad others have had the patience to make some suggestions for you. What I have to offer is just. . .this feedback.
Best of luck,
Zo
Posted by Mr.Scott on August 14, 2001, at 12:35:35
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » Mr.Scott, posted by Zo on August 14, 2001, at 2:42:21
Understood. And thank you BTW.
Scott
Posted by JahL on August 14, 2001, at 18:03:51
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » JahL, posted by shelliR on August 13, 2001, at 21:47:51
> > There's probably some merit to Jensen's "everything-but-the-kitchen-sink" approach & I'm with you on exploring unconventional meds. I would be dead but for this approach. However I *wouldn't* recommend anyone gets the aforementioned guy as their personal pdoc. Trust me on this one....
>
> So you've actually been to see the man himself ?
> Is he like the wizard of oz? < g >Pretty regular guy really. Pretty affable. Rather too keen on selling his book to me initially tho'.
> The two people I know of who really like him did phone consultations.
He was *meant* to call me; kept saying he couldn't get thru on his cheap international line. Ultimately all I got was a few cursory e-mails. Stuff like: "Try Lamotrigine. Start at a low dose." And that would be it. 2 sentences = 1 consultation! I didn't see any point in continuing.
Also, for someone who claims to like working alongside patients' regular pdocs, he was remarkably reluctant to contact my GP by e-mail. Wierd.
> > Meanwhile I may've found a way to trial Buph. myself....
>
> Can't you just order it off the internet? I know the sublingual type is available there.I've done that very thing. It's down to Her Maj's Customs as to whether I receive it. I remember Elizabeth saying the sub-lingual type was generally inferior & less reliable than the intra-nasal spray, but at least I might get some idea as to whether I'm heading in the right direction (if you're reading Elizabeth, I'd appreciate yr advice on what a good starting dose might be (0.2mg tabs). If this fails I have a couple of contingency plans...
> > BTW Jensen does not endorse *any* use of opioids, though in his book he does recognise that the opiod receptor system may have a part to play in depression (?!).
>
> Does he advise not to use them, or just ignores the topic?Yes & no. He postulates in his latest book (which I don't have to hand-lent it out) that the opioid receptor system is 1 of 12 possible sources of "chemical imbalance" that can lead to mental illness. He then goes on to say that opioids are not a viable treatment due to their high 'abuse-potential' (tho' he had no problem wrongly dx'ing me ADD & sending me off with 5 pots of amphetamines!)
> > Parnate going OK?
>
> The parnate sucks, so far. I was really excited at 10mg, no side effects. But when I went 15 I felt not great, and then at 20, I sleep away all of the last weekend, and was sick in my stomach. Today I went back down to 10, but tomorrow I should try 15 for a few days.Sounds very much like my experience. Felt fine @ 10mg but anything above this made me v. sleepy (whereas Nardil didn't). Above 25mg & I was out like a light. 16/18 hours sometimes. Impossible to fight it. Dropped back to 15mg but soon deteriorated. Off after 6 weeks & never again.
>I'm discouraged because I don't generally adjust to drugs that I don't take to right at the start.
Yeah, I usually know if I'm going to get along with a drug.
> Pdoc upped the oxycontin to let me take a 10mg prn, and so far I've taken the extra every day. I'd like to also look into buprenorphine because obviously I am getting acclimated to the oxycontin; 10mg used to blow me to nirvana for the first month.
Nirvana....read about it once.
Bupe might well be an idea 4 you.> I hate wasting time on things that don't work.
Tell me about. Time won't stop & you feel you're losing never-to-be-recaptured days. :-(
Judging from yr latest post the Parnate still ain't doing its thing. But you have the Oxycontin to get you thru, right? (You don't know how envious I am right *this* second. What I would give...:-) )
Hang in there
J.PS. on day 3 of adding Wellbutrin to the mix. *Boy* can I relate to the mood lability thing...anyone looks @ me wrong today and.....
Posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 15:37:41
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » shelliR, posted by JahL on August 14, 2001, at 18:03:51
> He was *meant* to call me; kept saying he couldn't get thru on his cheap international line. Ultimately all I got was a few cursory e-mails. Stuff like: "Try Lamotrigine. Start at a low dose." And that would be it. 2 sentences = 1 consultation! I didn't see any point in continuing.Hey, I could have done that for nothing. In fact I did a sam-e trial (unsuccessful) but I ended up talking to both of the authors of a book on sam-e (Stop Depression Now); One author, a NYC psychopharmacologist, gave me a list of things to try (with nardil) if sam -e didn't work. He talked with me for an hour on a Saturday. His first suggestion after sam-e was lamictal. And he didn't even charge me for the call!
>
> I've done that very thing. It's down to Her Maj's Customs as to whether I receive it. I remember Elizabeth saying the sub-lingual type was generally inferior & less reliable than the intra-nasal spray, but at least I might get some idea as to whether I'm heading in the right direction (if you're reading Elizabeth, I'd appreciate yr advice on what a good starting dose might be (0.2mg tabs). If this fails I have a couple of contingency plans...Two people on the board are taking it sublingually and having good results. It's just not available in the states in that form; I'm not sure why. So if I decide to try it, the type I try will be dependent on whether my pdoc wants me to get it here, or if he doesn't mind if I get it off the internet. I don't have prescription coverage anyway, so I don't mind getting it off the internet. I also don't mind going up on the oxy, as long as I know the rug's not going to be pulled out from under me. I do have hydrocondone hoarded, just in case. Can't be too careful; now I am really sounding like an addict. :-)
>> Sounds very much like my experience. Felt fine @ 10mg but anything above this made me v. sleepy (whereas Nardil didn't). Above 25mg & I was out like a light. 16/18 hours sometimes. Impossible to fight it. Dropped back to 15mg but soon deteriorated. Off after 6 weeks & never again.
Your experience was the deciding factor for me. Because I was headed in the exact same direction you went in, only I may have saved me five weeks. So , thanks.
>
>
> Tell me about. Time won't stop & you feel you're losing never-to-be-recaptured days. :-(
Yes, but you're only still a youngster < g >. I'm in my forties; I have a lot less days left (so I can't afford to lose any) :-)
>
> Judging from yr latest post the Parnate still ain't doing its thing. But you have the Oxycontin to get you thru, right? (You don't know how envious I am right *this* second. What I would give...:-) )
I think the bup is a really good plan; I hope they let it through. What is the cheapest way to get to France and back? I know it's available there, but probably only by prescription.>
> PS. on day 3 of adding Wellbutrin to the mix. *Boy* can I relate to the mood lability thing...anyone looks @ me wrong today and.....I asked my pdoc about using wellbutrin as my base AD, but he felt it was too complicated a drug. I don't exactly know what that means and didn't ask. Maybe he was talking about side effects. That's another question I want to bring up when he comes back, sometime next week. So you're getting one of those "mean" reactions to wellbutrin? I think those do go away.
Shelli
Posted by JahL on August 15, 2001, at 20:16:46
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » JahL, posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 15:37:41
>
> > He was *meant* to call me; kept saying he couldn't get thru on his cheap international line. Ultimately all I got was a few cursory e-mails. Stuff like: "Try Lamotrigine. Start at a low dose." And that would be it. 2 sentences = 1 consultation! I didn't see any point in continuing.
>
> Hey, I could have done that for nothing.To be fair to the guy, he didn't charge me for the e-mails (& shame on him if he did). Just the face-to-face consultation ($400). It was my 1st visit to the States. I'd like to return to that area if/when I'm better.
> Your experience was the deciding factor for me. Because I was headed in the exact same direction you went in, only I may have saved me five weeks. So , thanks.
So it's all on me, huh? At this point I feel like I should've tagged a YMMV warning to my last post.
> Yes, but you're only still a youngster
True but I'm a born cynic, jaded further by depression (it has that effect, as I'm sure you're aware). I'm older than my years as they say...
< g >.
I've been meaning to ask; does this mean 'giggle' or something...(not that computer savvy)?
>I'm in my forties; I have a lot less days left (so I can't afford to lose any) :-)
Forties? Life don't begin till you're fifty;-)
> > What is the cheapest way to get to France and back?
Swim. Plenty of grease.
J.
Posted by shelliR on August 15, 2001, at 23:56:33
In reply to Re: Follow up to replies » shelliR, posted by JahL on August 15, 2001, at 20:16:46
>
> > Your experience was the deciding factor for me. Because I was headed in the exact same direction you went in, only I may have saved me five weeks. So , thanks.
>
> So it's all on me, huh? At this point I feel like I should've tagged a YMMV warning to my last post.
YMMV is always implicit, although I may tell my pdoc a young punk from the UK persuaded me. < g >> < g >.
>
> I've been meaning to ask; does this mean 'giggle' or something...(not that computer savvy)?
no, not giggle, grin. and < vbg >, I'll let you figure that one out.
>> > > What is the cheapest way to get to France and back?
>
> Swim. Plenty of grease.
HA. YHMV (h=humor; I think I made that one up.)Shelli
>
This is the end of the thread.
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