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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 44. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by marie zeoli on December 30, 1998, at 13:13:27
I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
Posted by Mattias on December 31, 1998, at 2:48:12
In reply to codeine relieves depression, posted by marie zeoli on December 30, 1998, at 13:13:27
> I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
Just a thought, I have never used codeine.
Posted by Elizabeth on January 1, 1999, at 23:40:41
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Mattias on December 31, 1998, at 2:48:12
> > I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
> Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
> euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
> use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
> Just a thought, I have never used codeine.Codeine a "cocaine-like" drug? Uh...where are you getting your information?
Codeine is a very mild opiate. Hydrocodone is a synthetic opiate and is a little stronger. They are not related to cocaine, which is a stimulant (also a local anaesthetic). Withdrawal from cocaine and other stimulants can cause severe depression. The classic, most-obvious sign of opiate withdrawal is vomiting. Generally the doses required (of opiates or stimulants) to produce euphoria are in excess of those used therapeutically, so if you use these drugs as directed you are not as likely to experience severe withdrawals.
Posted by Mattias on January 2, 1999, at 5:12:23
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Elizabeth on January 1, 1999, at 23:40:41
> > > I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
> > Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
> > euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
> > use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
> > Just a thought, I have never used codeine.
> Codeine a "cocaine-like" drug? Uh...where are you getting your information?
> Codeine is a very mild opiate. Hydrocodone is a synthetic opiate and is a little stronger. They are not related to cocaine, which is a stimulant (also a local anaesthetic). Withdrawal from cocaine and other stimulants can cause severe depression. The classic, most-obvious sign of opiate withdrawal is vomiting. Generally the doses required (of opiates or stimulants) to produce euphoria are in excess of those used therapeutically, so if you use these drugs as directed you are not as likely to experience severe withdrawals.Sorry, it should be "morphine-like" drug.
Posted by marilyn on January 4, 1999, at 18:08:41
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Mattias on January 2, 1999, at 5:12:23
> > > > I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
> > > Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
> > > euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
> > > use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
> > > Just a thought, I have never used codeine.
> > Codeine a "cocaine-like" drug? Uh...where are you getting your information?
> > Codeine is a very mild opiate. Hydrocodone is a synthetic opiate and is a little stronger. They are not related to cocaine, which is a stimulant (also a local anaesthetic). Withdrawal from cocaine and other stimulants can cause severe depression. The classic, most-obvious sign of opiate withdrawal is vomiting. Generally the doses required (of opiates or stimulants) to produce euphoria are in excess of those used therapeutically, so if you use these drugs as directed you are not as likely to experience severe withdrawals.
> Sorry, it should be "morphine-like" drug.I too have used opiod analogs to treat my resistance to depression. The opiates work very well for me and give me almost instant relief.
Posted by Jo on January 4, 1999, at 20:09:56
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by marilyn on January 4, 1999, at 18:08:41
> > > > > I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
> > > > Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
> > > > euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
> > > > use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
> > > > Just a thought, I have never used codeine.
> > > Codeine a "cocaine-like" drug? Uh...where are you getting your information?
> > > Codeine is a very mild opiate. Hydrocodone is a synthetic opiate and is a little stronger. They are not related to cocaine, which is a stimulant (also a local anaesthetic). Withdrawal from cocaine and other stimulants can cause severe depression. The classic, most-obvious sign of opiate withdrawal is vomiting. Generally the doses required (of opiates or stimulants) to produce euphoria are in excess of those used therapeutically, so if you use these drugs as directed you are not as likely to experience severe withdrawals.
> > Sorry, it should be "morphine-like" drug.
> I too have used opiod analogs to treat my resistance to depression. The opiates work very well for me and give me almost instant relief.
I was given hydrocodone compound syrup for a cough, and was surprised at how wonderful I felt. I'd been taking Paxil for over a year, first for panic/anxiety attacks, then for depression. My doctor switched me to Celexa when I complained that I felt "flat" and had no motivation to anything. Frankly, the cough medicine works better, but I'm afraid to tell him. I can't imagine he'd approve of my taking codeine on a regular basis. I'm almost wishing the cough would stay around awhile.
Posted by Wayne R. on February 8, 1999, at 5:39:02
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Jo on January 4, 1999, at 20:09:56
I have been under treatment for depression for 30 years. I would respond well to most medications only to have them poop out in a short time. However, my life has recently changed. See my posting "Naltrexone for SSRI poop out" in February to see what worked for THIS patient. Naltrexone attaches to the opiat receptors just like codine does. Best wishes... Wayne
Posted by Paul on February 8, 1999, at 9:36:39
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Wayne R. on February 8, 1999, at 5:39:02
> I have been under treatment for depression for 30 years. I would respond well to most medications only to have them poop out in a short time. However, my life has recently changed. See my posting "Naltrexone for SSRI poop out" in February to see what worked for THIS patient. Naltrexone attaches to the opiat receptors just like codine does. Best wishes... Wayne
It is my understanding that Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, and as such, does bond to the same receptors that codeine does, but does not activate them, and thus produces none of the analgesic or euphoric effects of codeine. It would in fact counteract the effect of opioid agonists like codeine. It is the interest of agonists or mixed agonists/agonists on depression, I think is what is of interest regarding codeine.
But I could be wrong.
Posted by Elizabeth on February 10, 1999, at 16:44:45
In reply to Naltrexone, posted by Paul on February 8, 1999, at 9:36:39
> It is my understanding that Naltrexone is an opioid antagonist, and as such, does bond to the same receptors that codeine does, but does not activate them, and thus produces none of the analgesic or euphoric effects of codeine. It would in fact counteract the effect of opioid agonists like codeine. It is the interest of agonists or mixed agonists/agonists on depression, I think is what is of interest regarding codeine.
>
> But I could be wrong.At least as far as naltrexone goes you are right. Codeine is actually a pure agonist, but there has been some interest in mixed agonist/antagonists.
Posted by Lizaboo on March 27, 2001, at 6:29:26
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by marilyn on January 4, 1999, at 18:08:41
> > > > > I am on vicodan (sp) this does relieve my depression and I do not sleep on it and dont have panic attacks on it.
> > > > Since codeine is a cocaine-like drug, maybe itīs possible that it creates
> > > > euphoria and makes you feel better for the a short time, but in a long-time
> > > > use it will create symtoms similar to those of depression?
> > > > Just a thought, I have never used codeine.
> > > Codeine a "cocaine-like" drug? Uh...where are you getting your information?
> > > Codeine is a very mild opiate. Hydrocodone is a synthetic opiate and is a little stronger. They are not related to cocaine, which is a stimulant (also a local anaesthetic). Withdrawal from cocaine and other stimulants can cause severe depression. The classic, most-obvious sign of opiate withdrawal is vomiting. Generally the doses required (of opiates or stimulants) to produce euphoria are in excess of those used therapeutically, so if you use these drugs as directed you are not as likely to experience severe withdrawals.
> > Sorry, it should be "morphine-like" drug.
> I too have used opiod analogs to treat my resistance to depression. The opiates work very well for me and give me almost instant relief.
> > >I have been takingg vicodan for severe back pain AS DIRECTED. It has releived all of my depression. However my doc doesn't see the correlation, and will not refill. Know anyone? Cocaine effects your dopamine levels seriously, so when you come off it, you are twice as depressed.
Posted by Noah on March 30, 2001, at 15:28:14
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Lizaboo on March 27, 2001, at 6:29:26
As a long-time addict of prescription painkillers, and also having been on anti-depressants and the like for over 13 years, I am a little scared by what I'm hearing you say. The first thing an addict of any kind will start to do is make justifications for taking whatever he/she is taking. You'll start to think that the doctor doesn't know anything, and next thing you know, you'll be playing all the doctors in town and maybe even writing prescriptions yourself. When you go that far, or start stealing from friends/relatives, you're in trouble. Sure, opiates (codeine, lortab, percodan, etc.) may make you feel good. There are a certain percentage of people who are "natural addicts" and really like the feeling of euphoria caused by these drugs. More often, they just cause drowsiness, upset stomach, and many other nasty side effects. If they make you feel good, I would AVOID THEM LIKE THE PLAGUE. I've been through years of counseling, rehab, a lost marriage, and a life of deception because of painkillers. I've done every imaginable thing to get them. They can destroy your life. I know these are strong words, and I'm just talking to anybody out there who might be getting into this stuff. It is definitely not an answer to treating depression. In the long run, it will cause you more depression than anything. Sorry to get preachy, but stay the hell away from painkillers unless you REALLY need them. I just had back surgery and quit pills after one week, which is short for me, but I have had terrible urges for them. It helps to know what your weaknesses are and admit it.
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 16:06:36
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Noah on March 30, 2001, at 15:28:14
CAn I plz have your left over Codeine? I've never taken it before, not even Tylenol #3. I want EUPHORIA, I have never even done drugs before ever, okay, coffee and beer but you get the idea. I haven't had much success in ever achieving happiness or euphoria.
Posted by KarenB on March 30, 2001, at 16:46:50
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression-LIZABOO, posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 16:06:36
> CAn I plz have your left over Codeine? I've never taken it before, not even Tylenol #3. I want EUPHORIA, I have never even done drugs before ever, okay, coffee and beer but you get the idea. I haven't had much success in ever achieving happiness or euphoria.
Dubya - sending and receiving meds through the mail that are not prescribed to you is illegal. You can get in big trouble for this if you are not in possession of a script for Codeine. Because it's going through the postal service it's probably even considered a federal crime. I have done it before with other meds but only when I had access to a script.
Karen
Posted by Dubya on March 30, 2001, at 18:41:22
In reply to Re: codeine - be careful, Dubya, posted by KarenB on March 30, 2001, at 16:46:50
Oh oops, I didn't put much thought into what I said. I honestly rarely put much thought into what I said. I don't know why I said that but thanks for watching out... I don't want to take codeine, it was just at that time I was feeling really down when I posted.
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 1, 2001, at 14:43:32
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Lizaboo on March 27, 2001, at 6:29:26
I've been taking codeine phosphate for ulcerative colitis for many years, and yes, I found it helps with my depression. The trouble is, though, that as time goes on, I need more and more of the drug to get the same effect. At the moment, I am taking 36 x 30mg tablets at a time, which I think you will agree, is a real addiction. So my advice would be not to start taking it at all. It is terribly addictive, and very difficult to come off. The problem is that you just don't want to stop taking it.
Lisa
Posted by Elizabeth on April 5, 2001, at 7:05:43
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 1, 2001, at 14:43:32
> I've been taking codeine phosphate for ulcerative colitis for many years, and yes, I found it helps with my depression. The trouble is, though, that as time goes on, I need more and more of the drug to get the same effect. At the moment, I am taking 36 x 30mg tablets at a time, which I think you will agree, is a real addiction.
This is an old use of the word "addiction." "Physiological dependence" is probably more accurate. Most people who take codeine or similar drugs (opioid agonists) for a long enough period of time -- for whatever reason -- will develop tolerance to some of the effects (although I'm surprised that you have such a tolerance to the GI effects, which persist for years in a lot of people). "Addiction" (not really a medical term) exists when you have psychological "cravings" and (AFAIK) only happens when people take a drug to get high, develop tolerance to the mood elevating effect, and keep needing more and more in order to sustain the high. So-called "medical addicts," people who started out using opioids for (usually) pain and then became addicted to them for their mood-elevating effects, are rare. As a rule, as long as you don't abuse prescribed opioids (i.e., use more than the amount you need), you'll be able to stop taking them without too much difficulty (there may be some withdrawal symptoms, depending on which drug you are taking and what degree of tolerance you develop, but many drugs -- including antidepressants such as Effexor -- have withdrawal symptoms).
That said, codeine is not the best opioid to use as an antidepressant. It is very weak and has too many adverse effects relative to its desired effect. It would be better to use a low dose of a stronger opioid. There is not much documentation of the use of opioids as antidepressants (although before amphetamine was discovered, they were the drugs of choice for depression), but existing documentation suggests that many or most people can use them long-term without needing to raise the dose. (Buprenorphine, a partial agonist, is a good choice because it doesn't cause euphoria and has a "ceiling effect," meaning that its effects don't increase past a certain dose.)
Needless to say, it's a bad idea to use opioids without a doctor's supervision.
Posted by missliz on April 8, 2001, at 1:34:25
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Lisa Simpson on April 1, 2001, at 14:43:32
> I've been taking codeine phosphate for ulcerative colitis for many years, and yes, I found it helps with my depression. The trouble is, though, that as time goes on, I need more and more of the drug to get the same effect. At the moment, I am taking 36 x 30mg tablets at a time, which I think you will agree, is a real addiction. So my advice would be not to start taking it at all. It is terribly addictive, and very difficult to come off. The problem is that you just don't want to stop taking it.
>
>I find this thread disturbing. I've been there, got the T-shirts, since found much better tools to cope. And much better drugs.
I completely understand the charms of opiates. I've also taken enough of them to know that they don't really work for depression. You may think you feel better, but if you've gone to that kind of dope you've lost track of what truly feeling good is.
I used to drink and smoke and take drugs and be utterly miserable. It got so bad I had to cut myself almost constantly to get along. The cutting creates a big pop of endorphins in the brain, exactly like liquor and dope. All of these things are very bad for you. And codeine is particularly nasty because it metabolizes into bio-garbage that actually makes you feel worse after the high. It gives you the same hangover as drinking martinis but with about twenty times the trouble 'cause it's hard to get and addictive. Yeah, stop trying to hedge, addiction junkie rehab whithdrawal ect. all apply here.
So I found better tools. Give this some thought. I went to a psychiatrist. Thats the kind of doctor you need for depression- the other kinds don't really know how to treat it. Deppression is a specific illness with specific treatments. I got an accurate diagnosis, which for me was bipolar (manic depressive) disorder. Then I got medicine (drugs) that really worked and the long howling scream in my head finally stopped. The drinking and drugs stopped, too, because with appropriate treatment I didn't need to be a slave to getting high to dull the pain.
The other great secret- exercise. It makes the same chemicals right inside your brain that taking drugs does, but much higher quality and for free. And you look really good too.
A lot of you won't like this post, but you'll have to face reality sometime. In the days when opiates were used for depression the patient was being made comfortable but was considered a write off because there was no better treatment. Is that what you want? Is that all you're worth? Nobody is going to wave the magic wand and cure you. They can only help you do it yourself.missliz
Posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 9:20:21
In reply to Re: Codiene is nasty, posted by missliz on April 8, 2001, at 1:34:25
Misliz:
I agree. I too did street drugs and used alcohol to self medicate. I too didn't know I was bipolar. I even met my husband of 14 years in AA. I have since discovered that I am not alcoholic. I am on mood stabilizers and closer to a normal life than I have ever been.Marie and all who think opiates are the answer to depression:
Opiates are the wrong way to go. They do give a short term sense of euphoria and disinhibition that feels as if the depression is lifted but it only returns upon coming down from the drug and you are soon addicted. It's a long way back home from that place.Do find a good psychiatrist (NOT your family M.D.) and find what is really wrong. Do the research and become involved in your own recovery.
Hoping you find answers...
Karen
Posted by dougb on April 9, 2001, at 12:28:42
In reply to Naltrexone, posted by Paul on February 8, 1999, at 9:36:39
> and thus produces none of the analgesic or euphoric effectsI have been taking Hydrocodone/APAP 5/500 for 5 months and have felt great for the first time in years.
The Hydro does not make me feel 'High' just well.
Except for the first few months the SSRI's just give me different shades of grey.
Even if a patient were to feel 'Euphoria' Is that bad?
In my book Euphoria does not ryhme with suicide.
Yet many 10's of thousands of people every year are doing just that on the so-called anti-depressants
Posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
In reply to Re: Naltrexone, posted by dougb on April 9, 2001, at 12:28:42
Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
Posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
In reply to Re: Naltrexone ŧ dougb, posted by Fred Potter on April 9, 2001, at 16:47:11
> Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
Hi Guys,
I reread my post and it sounds as if I too am opposed to euphoria. I am not. As a matter of fact, my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
What I am opposed to, because I think it is dangerous, is addiction - the type that demands you take more and more to get to the same euphoric state and then starts stealing away any control you do have. You can never get back that initial, pleasant euphoria you first experienced. You then find yourself using several different docs to get what you need, because the amount you need would raise some eyebrows. Can you tell I've been there? Opiates are know for this kind of mess.
A time out from suffering is not a bad thing...as long as in staying there you don't get hurt.
Karen
Posted by Lisa Simpson on April 10, 2001, at 10:10:02
In reply to Re: codeine relieves depression, posted by Elizabeth on April 5, 2001, at 7:05:43
By the way, has anyone who has been on codeine noticed a side effect of decreasing sexual arousal?
Lisa
Posted by dougb on April 10, 2001, at 13:22:40
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred, posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
> my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?INHO No:
If you were Hypomanic/Euphoric all the time, what would be the point of reference?
Euphoria is only relative to our 'usual state'. As such it is a moving target, the pursuit of which requires ever increasing expenditure of time/money/effort to the point of personal/family/work and social irresphonsibility.
My personal experience of the Hell of Addiction on the mental level was:
The realization of the harm i was causing others and the failure to adequately fulfill my resphonsibilities - due - to my self-centered pursuit of euphoria.
The Hell of Depression is a very similar condition:
The awareness of the harm/inconvenience/burden that my condition places on all of those around me.
Hell.Addict....Major Dep.........Normal......Euphoric..?
|< -|-----|----------|----------------|-------------|-----| >|Doug
Posted by KarenB on April 10, 2001, at 15:54:52
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred ŧ KarenB, posted by dougb on April 10, 2001, at 13:22:40
>
> > my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> INHO No:
>
> If you were Hypomanic/Euphoric all the time, what would be the point of reference?Hi Doug,
Maybe I wasn't clear enough - "dream" to me implies something generally and distantly unattainable but desired. This is not my sense of reality. I am aware that an active pursuit of euphoria is detrimental to one's health and relationships to those around us. I know, firsthand, the results of such a lifestyle. It was sort of a backhanded joke and I guess it didn't come across quite that way.
Karen
Posted by missliz on April 10, 2001, at 23:47:18
In reply to Re: Euphoria-Doug and Fred, posted by KarenB on April 9, 2001, at 18:56:38
> > Well said Doug. So long as the euphoria is socially responsible I'm all in favour of it. Sometimes even if it isn't. Sort of like a time out from our suffering. Don't we deserve it occasionally?
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> I reread my post and it sounds as if I too am opposed to euphoria. I am not. As a matter of fact, my dream is to live in a state of controlled, euphoric hypomania. Wouldn't that be nice?
>
> What I am opposed to, because I think it is dangerous, is addiction - the type that demands you take more and more to get to the same euphoric state and then starts stealing away any control you do have. You can never get back that initial, pleasant euphoria you first experienced. You then find yourself using several different docs to get what you need, because the amount you need would raise some eyebrows. Can you tell I've been there? Opiates are know for this kind of mess.
>
> A time out from suffering is not a bad thing...as long as in staying there you don't get hurt.
>
> KarenEuphoria is great- but why drug induced euphoria when it only leads to long term disaster? Opiates are selfish drugs whose users just live for the next dose then sit in the corner and nod. This isn't an anti depressent effect, just another facet of illness. You want euphoria?
Run. Ride your bike. Surf. Climb a mountain, then run down the trails hollering. Be a sappy Nike ad 'cause like I said in my earlier post those who sweat have heads full of endorphins and those who go on adventures have something interesting to talk about. Addicts are bores.
If you opiate desperate types had done your research a little more thoroughly you'd find that these drugs just make depression worse in the long run. They play hell with brain chemistry and further destabilize it, making a bigger and bigger mess in there.
I suspect that you all really need psychotherapy to find out why you need to anesthetize yourselves. Opiates aren't about feeling better. They're about feeling nothing at all.
You want euphoria? Clean up, straighten out, find out what sober sex is. Thats euphoric.
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