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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phil on May 5, 2000, at 19:46:43
In reply to Re: Now how do you do that?… anyone?…any ideas?, posted by Phil on May 5, 2000, at 19:32:43
It is not true that life is one damn thing after another...It's one damn thing over and over.
~~~Edna ST. Vincent MillaySometimes therapy can help us recognize the pattern.
Phil
Posted by allisonm on May 5, 2000, at 20:25:57
In reply to Now how do you do that?… anyone?…any ideas?, posted by Janice on May 5, 2000, at 18:34:38
The way my psychiatrist explained it when we first began, the idea is to find drugs that help get a person out of the depression, or at least lift it some and create some stability. Then you start the work on underlying problems -- when the depression isn't so severe. It's a lot easier to talk frankly about hard stuff if you're not feeling so bad. (i can't speak to bipolar disorder as I've never dealt with it.)
A friend of mine is convinced that the right AD will fix everything, and that psychotherapy is a waste of time and won't fix anything in the end, so why bother dredging up all of that bad old stuff when the right drug will work? The difference between us is that he found an AD that snapped him right out of his depression. Mine have not. He and I have gone up, down, around and around on the subject of whether depression causes depressing thoughts or whether depressing thoughts cause depression. I was always of the mind that depression caused the thoughts.
But what I've found interesting lately is that my doctor thinks my most recent downturn is a result of our recent discussions. The answer is add/change drugs to lift the added depression. I must admit that this downturn has been different from all of the others. No thoughts about death. Just lethargy and some sadness. The new med change has caused what feels to me to be a remarkable turnaround. I've never felt this much better this fast. Ever.
So my doctor has broken my theory that depressing thoughts don't cause depression. And my drug experience has caused me to wonder whether my friend is right -- find the right drug and don't bother with what he calls the banality of the kleenex box.
I don't know whether any of this makes sense. I guess the end result is that I'm more on the fence than ever.
Perhaps my friend (who lurks here) might want to comment.
Posted by allisonm on May 5, 2000, at 20:28:52
In reply to Now how do you do that?… anyone?…any ideas?, posted by Janice on May 5, 2000, at 18:33:16
I think beliefs are pretty deep-seated things. I would think that after a good amount of conversation, a doctor could figure out what they are, clouded by depression or not. But I'm just guessing.
Posted by Cam W. on May 5, 2000, at 20:50:52
In reply to Re: Now how do you do that?… anyone?…any ideas?, posted by allisonm on May 5, 2000, at 20:25:57
Allison - In my opinion, I think your doctor is correct about medication. I do not believe that antidepressants can "cure" depression, only resolve its symptoms. In acute, reactive depression (as opposed to endogenous depression, due to genetics) the cure comes about by resolving the issues that caused the depression in the first place (eg coming to terms with an abusive situation, changing your mindset toward life in general, or, as in my case, dealing with the death of my son and learning how to grieve properly, rather than internalizing it and being the "strong one").Basically you have to fix the sh** that caused the depression in the first place. Antidepressants alone cannot do this. Therapy, whether in the form of formal cognitive-behavioral therapy or just talking out your problems with friends, is what "cures" your depression. The antidepressants just bring you to a level where you can cognitively understand why you are depressed. Sometimes the reason isn't very clear at all. Sometimes the issues surrounding what caused our depression are something we don't want to face; but we have to face these issues and deal with them, resolve them, or otherwise come to terms with them, if we truly will be able to recover.
As someone so eloquently stated a few months ago, "Antidepressants just put the floor under your feet."
Just my opinion, for what it's worth - Cam W.
Posted by CarolAnn on May 6, 2000, at 9:29:03
In reply to belief , posted by harry b. on May 4, 2000, at 22:14:04
Harry, do you do any journaling? I don't do much, but my therapist pretty much insisted that it was necessary.
Anyway, recently I was questioning my own belief system and I decided to write down everything about myself that I believe. I just sat down and asked myself, "what do I believe, right now at this moment in time?". The I wrote the answers.
For example: I believe I am a good person at heart.
I believe in the "Golden Rule"(treat others as you want to be treated).
I believe that learning how to *love*, is the reason that we are here on earth.
I believe my life has a purpose, and I will find out what it is when the time is right.
I believe that God exists, though I do not know the nature of God.This is just a basic summary of what I came up with. I think doing this will help you. I have actually found that if I sit quietly with pen and paper, and ask a specific question, I very often find myself writing down the answer I need. Good luck! CarolAnn
Posted by harry b. on May 6, 2000, at 18:34:43
In reply to Re: Finding your belief system..., posted by CarolAnn on May 6, 2000, at 9:29:03
> Harry, do you do any journaling? I don't do much, but my therapist pretty much insisted that it was necessary.
CarolAnn- Yes I do journal. I was looking thru
my recent past journals last night. There was so
much negativity there it frightened me.Thanks for the idea, I hadn't thought of using
that method in my quest.
Posted by allisonm on May 6, 2000, at 20:50:57
In reply to Re: Now how do you do that?… anyone?…any ideas?, posted by Cam W. on May 5, 2000, at 20:50:52
Your opinion is worth a lot. I appreciate hearing your point of view on this, especially because you are on the drug-dispensing end of this topic sted the psychotherapy end. Thanks very much.
Allison
Posted by Noa on May 7, 2000, at 13:00:36
In reply to Thank you, Cam, posted by allisonm on May 6, 2000, at 20:50:57
I think the issue of what *caused* the depression is still unanswerable for most of us. It is kind of a chicken and egg thing. We have a biochemical makeup. We interact with a social and pysical world. These systems are highly complex and they interact in subtle ways.
I do think that some people need therapy only in order to get through the depression. Others may do best with meds only. And many would benefit from both.
And, sometimes, it is true, that material that comes up in therapy can be so upsetting as to cause a downturn. That is why you and the therapist need to have a way to monitor how much and how fast you explore difficult issues, and what will help if it feels overwhelming.
Posted by Janice on May 7, 2000, at 21:51:53
In reply to Re: Thank you, Cam, posted by Noa on May 7, 2000, at 13:00:36
Hi Phil,
I have done therapy, but just never had any luck. I really like your idea of seeing someone with the same disorder as yourself. That I really like!
•It is not true that life is one damn thing after another...It's one damn thing over and over. great quote! My life is about frustration! Nothing seems to change, and I can't seem to 'get anything done'. My life is not much different than it was when I was 16--18 years ago.
Thanks for the good ideas, Phil
I believe I read that book.I've come to the conclusion that I only seem to have 'issues' when I am depressed.
Posted by harry b. on May 8, 2000, at 8:17:03
In reply to Phil anyone everyone, posted by Janice on May 7, 2000, at 21:51:53
> •It is not true that life is one damn thing after another...It's one damn thing over and over. great quote! My life is about frustration! Nothing seems to change, and I can't seem to 'get anything done'. My life is not much different than it was when I was 16--18 years ago.
>
.
>
> I've come to the conclusion that I only seem to have 'issues' when I am depressed.
Janice,
That quote rings loud and clear and your comments
about sum up my life experience also.I've never been not depressed. I *think*, though,
that during those times when we are either not
depressed, or at least not wallowing in a pit of
despair (functioning & imbued with some rational
self realization), that that is the time to address
those *issues* that are so acute, time consuming,
and destructive for us when depressed. These
issues, whatever they may be, if resolved or at
least examined and understood, may cease to haunt
us and consume us when depressed. Resolution and
awareness/acceptance *may* (I hope) help us on
our path to wellness.
Posted by Janice on May 8, 2000, at 14:31:56
In reply to Re: Phil anyone everyone- Janice, posted by harry b. on May 8, 2000, at 8:17:03
hi,
I don't believe my issues are real, just a manifestation of a warped, depressed brain. I'm beginning to believe I need to accept that I have a medical illness…and that is it.When I am depressed my issues are:
•I am angry and bitter, and blame my parents for the way I am - which is manic-depressive
•I get very jealous of other people who have a decent life--especially my peers (people with the same education & socio-economic class as me).
•I am angry I can't seem to make a life for myself, hold down a job, get a career, or hold down a relationship, and will probably never be able to have children.But I only feel this way when I am depressed. I'm fine with this now (I'm not depressed right now-Yipee).
I would be curious to hear other peoples' "issues" if they would like to share them. Maybe I could relate or it would help me clarify my own life and my own 'issues' if I do have any?
Thank you harry,
You have alot to share,
Janice
Posted by Noa on May 8, 2000, at 17:12:25
In reply to Issues related to mental health (harry others), posted by Janice on May 8, 2000, at 14:31:56
Janice,
I have some of the same feelings about my depression that you described. At the moment, I am at that spot when things are starting to look a bit better. This is when I start to feel frightened about feeling so hopeful, because I never know when the damned depression is going to come back to terrorize me again, as it has so many times. It feels like a monster, lurking in the shadows, just waiting for me to feel good, just waiting for my guard to be down. I hate it. It feels to me like a monster that I am not powerful enough to fend off. And that enrages me.
Even if there are no "real" issues to bring to therapy, there is Couples Therapy for me and my Depression, because, face it, we've had this long-term terribly disfunctional relationship, one which has had a profound impact upon my quality of life.
Posted by bob on May 8, 2000, at 21:52:07
In reply to Re: Couples Therapy: Me and My Disorder, posted by Noa on May 8, 2000, at 17:12:25
(why I *ever* consider doing something other than signing onto Babble for a couple days in a row is really beyond me ... ;^)
Let's see ... Janice first:
How do I get at my issues? That can really be a sticky problem since I've realized that so much of my misspent mental energy goes towards keeping my really *serious* issues AWAY from me. Lately in therapy, I've been learning the true meaning of "defense mechanisms" and how your unconscious mind can totally blind your consciousness from something too chilling to face directly.One thing I tend to be good at is coming up with metaphors ... which, given how hard it can be to put a direct tag on some feelings, can be quite useful. Early on in my work with my current therapist, I realized just how much this work was like peeling back the layers of an onion -- a fairly common metaphor, as it is. Maybe that's why it seems we go round and round so much. The difference between layers can be so subtle, it really can be hard to pick up any change.
(Here's an echo of Phil's quote which Vesper should appreciate, if you're lurking out there:
"I'm just a mirror of a mirror of myself, all the things that I do." -- Emily Sailers)Then again, my brain has given me a rather clear signal for when I'm finally peeling back that layer, when I'm making some breakthrough: there I'll be, lying down, and all of a sudden I'll get this buzz in my head that makes me incredibly dizzy ... just as if I'm about to have some sort of out-of-body experience if only my spirit could leap out of my skin. Another way of describing it is like that buzz you get when your arm or leg falls asleep, but this is inside my head ... and strangely enough, it does feel quite rewarding. (I just hope the thought of it doesn't make anyone out there nauseous!)
A metaphor I've had about my "issues" for a long, long time, tho, has been this feeling like I'm doing some sort of primitive dance around a fire. Surrounded by a ring of tall, southwest US desert sandstone boulders. Everything is lit up by the fire EXCEPT for the fire, which is this black, terrifying emptiness. Not that I've ever seen much of it -- I've been far too afraid to look at it, so the images I have are the glimpses you get of things out of the corner of your eye.
Remember what I said about those defense mechanisms?
It's long been my suspicion (I don't believe in "hope") that if I could look into that blackness and see what it's hiding (maybe with the help of the "right" friend for support), I'd understand a great deal of what is "wrong" with me. Well, the last month of therapy, I've found myself not looking into the blackness, but standing in its center.
My therapist describes medication as giving you a window on feeling different (she's wise/experienced enough not to say "better", though that generally is the plan, isn't it?). In the last year, as I've been closing in on better and better combinations of meds and making the ground firm up under my feet, I've really come to believe that the best thing medication can do for you is provide you that floor -- maybe feeling solid ground underneath you is the right "window", one of comfort and support instead of feeling "good" -- so you can grapple with those psychological issues our subconscious mind does its best to hide from us while we aren't capable of coping with them.
So, Allison, I wouldn't give in to your (lurking?) friend so easily ... what a Brave New World that would be if it were that easy. That's one reason I love(d) having boB (where are you, man?) around -- his constant poking us all in the side to forget the medical illness model of our disorders and question the social and cultural issues involved. Janice, why question the validity of those feelings you have? If people very much like you have such wonderful things and, because of whatever it was that "made" you manic-depressive, you don't, why shouldn't you feel bitter or angry? While boB might say we should question why we want those sorts of things in the first place and not having them but wanting them may be part of our illness (just taking a guess there), I also have to question the mindset that says we have to "settle" for what we have because this is the best it's ever going to get.
I won't hope for a change, but I *will* work towards one.
Now here's a thought for you, Noa, if hope is so terrifying. We've talked outside of Babble about it before ... I'm guessing you can remember just how strongly I feel about it. Well, my therapist has offered to hold onto hope for me until I'm ready to stop hating it so much. I've never heard anyone else say that, but it seems that the best of my friends, whether they realize it or not, have been doing the same. I'd like to tell her "no", because I feel so guilty about the sorrow my friends must feel seeing what should be MY hopes going unrealized.
But maybe she's right after all ... and maybe I'm just looking for another way to "cut" myself in denying even this offer of comfort.
Well now, all that being said, time for the confession -- standing here in the middle of the black. Hiding it has done me a lot of harm (tho it probably saved my life as well), but shedding more and more light on it is the only way I'll ever understand it.
Like most perfectionists, I imagine, I punish myself for my failures. Like most perfectionists with mental disorders, my failures are innumerable and my punishments quite vicious at times. Those are some of the inner layers of the onion. I've always felt like a failure -- but I've always felt the punishment was coming from someone else. My parents. God. No one in particular ... just some sort of cosmic inside joke on me.
What I've come to understand most recently is that the (imagined) attempts to punish me by others have all been miserable failures as well. The only one who can REALLY punish me the way I deserve is me.
So I'm both a perfectionist and a masochist -- ain't that a bitch!
So, for the lurking friend who may be out there thinking the right med is all I might need -- maybe you could recommend a pill for me that causes some excruciating pain, because as much as many of you might not understand it, I get "high" off of hurting myself. Psychologically, not physically, but for the "right" reasons and only with the perception of complete control. I'm sure that there's some chemical compound out there that would do the trick for me.
One thing I *do* know is that I DO NOT WANT this timebomb sitting around in my head, psychological claptrap it may be or whatever. If I had known this about myself any number of times in the last 15 years, I *would* have killed myself. No "cry for help" disguised as a suicide attempt; more like a .45 out the back of my head ... with maybe a few preliminary rounds into my legs or something like that just for kicks.
No wonder the "darkness" of that fire scared the sh*t out of me, eh? I can't even say if I've hit the core of it (the center of the onion) -- it's still too new and too unexamined. But for the first time in my life, I can do more than turn at look ... I can step into it, come into contact with it. And it's my firm belief that I can do this without any fear, as chilling as it is all the same, because of the solid ground my meds have put underneath me AND because I have a therapist (the "friend" I've thought I needed for soooo long) who can look there, too, and who knows me well enough to yank me out if I need it, guide my search if I need it, and help me question the "truth" in what I find -- because that is ONE thing I certainly need!
Well, so much soul baring for one night ... I just hope IE 5 doesn't crash on me when I hit the Submit button ....
cheers,
bob
Posted by Janice on May 8, 2000, at 22:05:08
In reply to Re: Couples Therapy: Me and My Disorder, posted by Noa on May 8, 2000, at 17:12:25
hi Noa,
I try not to wallow in self-pity, but, like you, mental illness has been a very large part of my life for a very long time.I'm so glad to hear you're feeling optimistic. I've noticed you're a little more assertive lately, and I like it. I believe once we find the underlying reason (thyroid or whatever) we hopefully should be able to be rid of it (or treat it) --dare I say forever.
I too am feeling optimistic, Janice
Posted by Phil on May 8, 2000, at 22:47:39
In reply to Re: Couples Therapy: Me and My Disorder, posted by Noa on May 8, 2000, at 17:12:25
Can't babble too much tonight because my fear of the days ahead have really been just ripping me up. I'm doing my best to hang on. Besides the Big D, I have money problems that are putting the fear of God in me. It's not so much the lack of money but the lack of direction and purpose that could solve the problem.
When I was in therapy 5-6 years ago, I answered a questionaire about thoughts, beliefs and attitudes. It was one of my first assignments.
The only question I can remember was to complete the sentence,'Love equals_____. My answer...pain.
After all these years, my answer is still the same. Depression or not, I have a big issue with this question. I avoid love tenaciously. If someone says they want me to meet 'someone', I'll find a way around it.
I think, know, that's my issue. I think I am at a point that I can give love but damned if I know how to receive love. Was it Nazareth that so ear-achingly bemoaned,"Love Hurts"?
Anyway, I read somewhere recently-can't remember who said it,"I've only been in love once but I've stepped in it several times."Not looking for answers just ramblin'
Phil
Posted by Janice on May 9, 2000, at 15:13:38
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Phil on May 8, 2000, at 22:47:39
Thanks Phil, I'm getting it.
Sorry about the Big D and money problems.
Love is…my dog.
Maybe I do have issues.
Janice
Posted by bob on May 9, 2000, at 16:39:34
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Janice on May 9, 2000, at 15:13:38
> Love is…my dog.
> Maybe I do have issues.
> JaniceTasha and Zach (my german shepard & corgi) think you've got your priorities down pretty good. I might say, instead, my dog(s) is(are) love.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Noa on May 9, 2000, at 17:58:03
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by bob on May 9, 2000, at 16:39:34
Hey, love is love, get it where you can, give it where you can. The great thing about dogs is that it is truly a mutually loving relationship, whereas searching for love in other places often leads to one-way relationships or worse, ones in which what comes back to you is not only not love, but something destructive and awful. Dogs (and some other pets) really do love you back. It's as honest as it gets.
Phil, sorry about the financial woes. I am all too familiar with them myself, and the anxiety they have caused me is definitely a component of my depressive illness. And, of course it is a vicious circle phenomenon. My anxiety is a great deal lessened since signing up with consumer credit counseling services. They take a few hundred dollars out of my account electronically every month and pay off my debts. I don't have to think about that aspect of my financial problems anymore. And once in a while, when I actually read their quarterly statements, I notice evidence of progress, like, "hey, my overdue tax debt has been paid off altogether!" It is a good feeling, after many many years of not being able to get a handle on it. I still don't quite have a handle on it, but it is better.
And, as if the big D isn't enough to occupy your energy!
Rootin' for you from this end....Noa
Posted by bob on May 9, 2000, at 22:37:52
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Noa on May 9, 2000, at 17:58:03
> Hey, love is love, get it where you can, give it where you can. The great thing about dogs is that it is truly a mutually loving relationship, whereas searching for love in other places often leads to one-way relationships or worse, ones in which what comes back to you is not only not love, but something destructive and awful. Dogs (and some other pets) really do love you back. It's as honest as it gets.
"Dogs love their friends and bite their enemies, quite unlike people, who are incapable of pure love and always have to mix love and hate in their object-relations."
-- Sigmund FreudPhil, I gotta second Noa's promo for credit counseling. Between taking my credit cards out of my radar screen and consolidating my student loans -- both with electronic debits -- my financial picture is no longer laden with the fear evoked by receiving all those statements in the mail, the anxiety fostered by my inability to sit down, open the bills, write a check (since it was never an issue of not having the money for me, either), and SEND THE G*D*MN THING OFF, and all the guilt over not meeting my responsibilities. I love having just my Amex card (especially since you can pay on-line!) and that "must pay" status each month for almost all of my purchases ... no longer do I play those little mind games of "Gee, I really deserve this NOW" or "THIS toy would be a great anti-depressant" at the store only to screw my anxiety up tight as a watch spring waiting for that monthly statement.
It's also ooooooooh sooooo gratifying to see those credit companies that were stuffing a 22.9%APR down my craw cop down to 6% or 8% rate instead. Teeheehee .... =^)
cheers,
bob
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2000, at 5:38:19
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by bob on May 9, 2000, at 22:37:52
Thanks for the input. I had a dog a few years ago but couldn't keep her in my small place so I found her a family that had a BIG yard. Next time-small dog. As far as lookin fer love:I'm not.
I don't need credit counseling right now although I've used it in the past. I live very frugal(ly).
I just am not making enough to live in this once reasonable city. I'm not late on bills as of yet but in the 80's, I lost a house and just about everything else. I don't have much to lose right now except a credit rating and I don't want to revisit that.
I do need counseling again to work on the issues that keep attracting me to disaster career wise and otherwise.
Posted by Phil on May 10, 2000, at 6:12:03
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Phil on May 10, 2000, at 5:38:19
It wasn't until I went to a lot of ACOA meetings that I discovered why my relationships had always been difficult. I had been in relationships with the same woman over and over...she just had a different appearance!!
I now know that my TYPE is what to avoid but I just avoid the whole business for now. I HAVE had a few times in life that were pretty smooth. As soon as a relationship came along; would quit taking care of myself, etc. I think some folks, speaking of myself, are just better off w/o.
Posted by Cindy W on May 10, 2000, at 9:17:24
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Phil on May 10, 2000, at 5:38:19
Phil wrote:
"I do need counseling again to work on the issues that keep attracting me to disaster career wise and otherwise."Everyone...love equals caring without harm, I think. Am in therapy trying to learn how to love without courting disaster, too.Right now, I love my treefrog...she is wild, named Phoney Frog, and just returned last night in the kitchen after another two month absence (they go in and out somehow, maybe through the mouse holes). She was emaciated, very hungry, and immediately took tiny crickets from my hand. She is now soaking in a water dish in the kitchen. She is probably the only creature I know who loves me for who I am (kind of like a dog; I have two cats but they live three hours away, sadly). Am still trying to figure out how to get along that well with someone of the human species!
Posted by Janice on May 10, 2000, at 14:44:04
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Cindy W on May 10, 2000, at 9:17:24
Right now, I love my treefrog...she is wild, named Phoney Frog, and just returned last night in the kitchen after another two month absence (they go in and out somehow, maybe through the mouse holes). She was emaciated, very hungry, and immediately took tiny crickets from my hand. She is now soaking in a water dish in the kitchen. She is probably the only creature I know who loves me for who I am (kind of like a dog; I have two cats but they live three hours away, sadly).
That was beautiful. Animals seem to teach us how to love…well for those of us who can listen. Janice
Posted by Noa on May 11, 2000, at 9:26:09
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Cindy W on May 10, 2000, at 9:17:24
Cindy, when I first read your post, I had the impression that the OCD problems must be better, because you talk about the *one* treefrog. It sounds like you are really enjoying her.
This impresion was strengthened today, when I read your post above, about serzone and anger, and you wrote that the effexor is helping with the OCD. Have you been experiencing more progress?
Posted by Cindy W on May 11, 2000, at 10:00:22
In reply to Re: Love equals_______., posted by Noa on May 11, 2000, at 9:26:25
> Cindy, when I first read your post, I had the impression that the OCD problems must be better, because you talk about the *one* treefrog. It sounds like you are really enjoying her.
>
> This impresion was strengthened today, when I read your post above, about serzone and anger, and you wrote that the effexor is helping with the OCD. Have you been experiencing more progress?Noa, thank you for your kind comments! Phoney Frog is special because she chooses to come spend time with me (and my constant cricket supply of course). The Effexor-XR has really helped with OCD and depression (I don't worry about stepping on frogs outside, worry less about what other people are thinking about me, don't spend 4-6 hours per day on frogs, don't think constantly about driving my car into other cars, etc.). However, I still have been unable to declutter my house, car, and desk at work. Hoarding/cluttering seems to be the variant of OCD least affected by SSRI's (requires behavior therapy to really attack it). Every day, though, I try to take tiny steps towards my goals. Hope things are going better for you!--Cindy W
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