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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 28 to 52 of 106. Go back in thread:
Posted by Jost on June 16, 2006, at 13:16:28
In reply to Re: I would, posted by fallsfall on June 16, 2006, at 12:57:46
Hi, Dinah.
I'm somewhat horrified by this turn of events with your T. Not having been on psychobabble very long, I dont' know the history, except the latest part about the struggle about whether to leave where you were. Your relationship with your T was a deciding, if not the deciding, factor, as it seemed.
If that's so, then you have a very deep involvement or dependency on this person, and it sounds as though, whatever his good and helpful or engaging qualities, he is a deeply unreliable person.
That sounds a very problematic combination (your reliance and his unreliability). If he didn't mention being away, or the possiblity of being away (since jobs don't drop out of the sky without someone's at least signing up to be considered, usually), while encouraging you to stay in N.O. to see him regularly, it sounds really unethical to me. Certainly unprofessional. And very very untrustworthy.
How can you stop your relationship in a helpful-to-you way? Just cutting your T off angrily or impulsively, or just half-sticking it out in the hope that you will someday (or even soon) be able to slip away easily both seem unrealistic, and not in your best interest.
At least have a consultation with another T, for a number of sessions. This is not a situation that you should be in alone-- and this T doesn't sound as if he's someone who has the self-awareness or disinterestedness to cope and to help you make a transition to someone who can be a reliable person.
I really feel for you in this.
Jost.
Posted by madeline on June 16, 2006, at 13:55:32
In reply to Sh*t faced B*STARD, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2006, at 19:16:22
Although I completely understand why you are upset, I think you are making too much out of this. All this is is a minor blip in scheduling and that’s probably why he forgot to mention it. It’s not even permanent.
I suspect this is why he didn’t want to influence your decision to move and why he became distant to you during the decision process. If you say that you stayed because of him, that would have put you both in a terrible position. One where he can’t make a mistake without you saying “I stayed here, altered my whole life and you do THIS!” leading to inevitable resentment and disappointment.
Remember, this is just a blip in scheduling, it is not a slap in the face of your decision, which he never wanted to be about him anyway.
Just my two cents.
Posted by happyflower on June 16, 2006, at 14:19:04
In reply to I know I'm in the minority here... » Dinah, posted by madeline on June 16, 2006, at 13:55:32
((((((Dinah)))))) I am so sorry you are hurting so much. Will you still have the permanant once a week therapy? Or is he stoping that too? Is it the 2nd session he is not sure about?
I know you are mad, and you need to direct that right at the source, HIM! But I have convidence that everything will work out for you two. You have been working a long time with him and i am sure he can handle your anger, so let him have it. I am thinking everything will be okay, but I understand you being so mad that you want to terminate. (((((((Dinah)))))
Posted by Tamar on June 16, 2006, at 14:28:17
In reply to Re: I would, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 12:01:29
> I think I'll keep the appointment Sunday just to find out when he had an inkling that this would be happening. If it was before 6/5, then I'll know he deliberately misled my husband and I in order to influence us to stay in town. Because I *would* have decided to leave if he hadn't dangled the prospect of things getting back to stable and normal in therapy. And while he was neutral in front of my husband, he was not in general neutral with me.
Oh good grief. So he encouraged you to think that things were returning to normal while he was in the process of lining up this other job? I’m getting in line to give him one of those cyber slaps.
> That should be an unforgiveable breach of trust.
>
> But likely it won't be. Most likely I'll stay with him, and you all will be as frustrated and angry with me as people are with wives who stay in abusive situations.I won’t be frustrated and angry if you stay with him. I’ll be concerned for you, however. I think it *is* an abuse of your love for him, and he needs to acknowledge that it is extremely serious. At the very least, he ought to promise you that he will do some intensive therapy himself, or go to supervision, or something like that. I think he needs to acknowledge that he must not keep hurting you and he needs to take responsibility for sorting things out in his own head. It shouldn’t be your problem, and yet it has been your problem over and over again.
> I hope at least I have the courage to pass on the second session a week. The more I remember how it was the less I want to even try it. He never knew on Sunday if he could see me that week, so he'd tell me he'd call. And he'd forget to call. And I'd assume that was because he couldn't see me. But sometimes it was just because he forgot to call. And of course probably he forgot because he just didn't want to see clients after a stressful day at work. And I understand that. But sitting by my phone week after week wondering if he could see me hurt far worse than just knowing I wouldn't see him.
I can completely understand that. It would be worse for me too. If he isn’t in a position to make plans three or four evenings ahead, then he can’t expect you to be in a position to drop everything to see him, or to hang around hoping he’ll phone. It wouldn’t be fair in any relationship, and it’s especially unfair in a professional relationship.
> I can't believe he didn't tell me. He knows how hard this last eight months has been for me. He knows how he has hurt me over and over and over again. I told him I *wanted* to move if therapy was going to continue to be this way. That I couldn't bear being hurt like that continuously. And he told me it was over. That things would get back to normal. That he hadn't realize it had been so harmful to me but that it was over. That he wouldn't keep hurting me. That he was back to stay and he could see me twice a week on a stable schedule. That we could try to repair things.B*stard. It really does sound like a deliberate lie. How could he suggest the uncertainty was over if he didn’t know for sure that he could see you twice a week on a stable schedule? Trying to repair things only works if both parties take responsibility for their part of the relationship. He really needs to make a decision. Can he be the therapist you need him to be? Or can’t he?
> And this wasn't long ago either. This was two and three weeks ago. And he didn't tell me the truth until it was too late to move.
I want to believe that this has been a countertransferential oversight rather than a deliberate lie. I want to believe that he is so committed to being a good therapist to you that he wasn’t able to acknowledge to himself that he was setting you up for another hurt. I want to believe that he genuinely wishes to be the therapist you need and so finds it hard to face his own shortcomings. It’s the best spin I can think to put on it. And it still leaves him lacking in basic professional competence.
> I'm inclined to leave my husband and get out of town anyway, at least until this horrible addiction is broken. Because I know that I don't have the strength to stay here and not see him.
I think there is a very real question about your sense of self worth. If he has hurt you repeatedly and knows it and has promised to make things change, and now has hurt you again, it must be absolutely devastating. It’s the sort of thing that would floor anyone, but for someone with mental health problems it’s unspeakable. He needs to agree to a long term solution and he needs to stick to it. And one thing he needs to do is to make sure that he will be able to provide adequate care for you when he gets other jobs. He can’t expect you to wait for him to return, or to see him one evening in twenty-five. He has a very real responsibility for you and it’s time he got his head around it.
((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
Give him hell.
Posted by Poet on June 16, 2006, at 16:39:17
In reply to Re: I would, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 12:01:29
Hi Dinah,
Whatever you decide I won't be angry with you. I wish I could fly down there and really slap him for you.
*I'm Poet, Dinah couldn't make it today. She gave me something to give you though.* A hard punch in the nose. Along with a few choice words regarding his ancestory.
You don't deserve to be treated like this, Dinah, I don't think your T is worthy of someone like you. He should pay you for your time. Damn him. Enough, I'll stop, sorry, this isn't helping you make a decision. I wish I could help you make that decision.
Poet
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 17:15:17
In reply to Re: I would » Dinah, posted by Poet on June 16, 2006, at 16:39:17
I finally got enough in my system to make a difference.
I guess I'll wait to hear what he has to say.
When he knew about this makes a big difference.
If he didn't know when he talked to us, then he's just being his usual avoidant and inconsiderate self, I guess.
If he did know, I don't know if I can forgive this. He knew that I was only staying for him, and for the chance of things getting back to normal in therapy. We talked about it, and he thought that was an ok reason.
Not that I think it will make a difference. I'm not strong enough to leave him. So I'll keep working at a job that hurts me to pay for my therapist who will also hurt me over and over.
I'm absolutely brilliant aren't I.
I think I acquit him of any ill intent except maybe wanting to protect his income stream. I think Tamar's right. He does want to be a good therapist to me, he overestimates what he can do, and he avoids things that are upsetting to him. And then he looks like my dogs after they've eaten a pen, and have ink all over their paws. Who me? I didn't do anything wrong. Why are you so upset?
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 17:17:07
In reply to Re: I would » Dinah, posted by Poet on June 16, 2006, at 16:39:17
I'll make sure to slap him a few times, Poet. At least verbally. I'll try to keep your posts in mind.
Sigh.
Sometimes I do wish we could all go to someone's session - this time mine.
Posted by fallsfall on June 16, 2006, at 17:36:26
In reply to Re: I would ? Poet, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 17:17:07
Does your cell phone have a speakerphone option?
Posted by frida on June 16, 2006, at 17:52:54
In reply to Re: I would » Dinah, posted by Tamar on June 16, 2006, at 14:28:17
Dear Dinah,
I had tears reading your post and the others'.
He's certainly hurting you a lot :-(
when he should be the one to offer safety, stability, support...He is your therapist! He has a commitment to you...he has a responsibility to you...I think things really have to change because you truly can't and shouldn't take anymore pain, from the person who should be giving you relief, peace and comfort. :-(
I can feel your pain. I'd be devastated and so hurt too..love and support,
Frida> > I think I'll keep the appointment Sunday just to find out when he had an inkling that this would be happening. If it was before 6/5, then I'll know he deliberately misled my husband and I in order to influence us to stay in town. Because I *would* have decided to leave if he hadn't dangled the prospect of things getting back to stable and normal in therapy. And while he was neutral in front of my husband, he was not in general neutral with me.
>
> Oh good grief. So he encouraged you to think that things were returning to normal while he was in the process of lining up this other job? I’m getting in line to give him one of those cyber slaps.
>
> > That should be an unforgiveable breach of trust.
> >
> > But likely it won't be. Most likely I'll stay with him, and you all will be as frustrated and angry with me as people are with wives who stay in abusive situations.
>
> I won’t be frustrated and angry if you stay with him. I’ll be concerned for you, however. I think it *is* an abuse of your love for him, and he needs to acknowledge that it is extremely serious. At the very least, he ought to promise you that he will do some intensive therapy himself, or go to supervision, or something like that. I think he needs to acknowledge that he must not keep hurting you and he needs to take responsibility for sorting things out in his own head. It shouldn’t be your problem, and yet it has been your problem over and over again.
>
> > I hope at least I have the courage to pass on the second session a week. The more I remember how it was the less I want to even try it. He never knew on Sunday if he could see me that week, so he'd tell me he'd call. And he'd forget to call. And I'd assume that was because he couldn't see me. But sometimes it was just because he forgot to call. And of course probably he forgot because he just didn't want to see clients after a stressful day at work. And I understand that. But sitting by my phone week after week wondering if he could see me hurt far worse than just knowing I wouldn't see him.
>
> I can completely understand that. It would be worse for me too. If he isn’t in a position to make plans three or four evenings ahead, then he can’t expect you to be in a position to drop everything to see him, or to hang around hoping he’ll phone. It wouldn’t be fair in any relationship, and it’s especially unfair in a professional relationship.
>
> > I can't believe he didn't tell me. He knows how hard this last eight months has been for me. He knows how he has hurt me over and over and over again. I told him I *wanted* to move if therapy was going to continue to be this way. That I couldn't bear being hurt like that continuously. And he told me it was over. That things would get back to normal. That he hadn't realize it had been so harmful to me but that it was over. That he wouldn't keep hurting me. That he was back to stay and he could see me twice a week on a stable schedule. That we could try to repair things.
>
> B*stard. It really does sound like a deliberate lie. How could he suggest the uncertainty was over if he didn’t know for sure that he could see you twice a week on a stable schedule? Trying to repair things only works if both parties take responsibility for their part of the relationship. He really needs to make a decision. Can he be the therapist you need him to be? Or can’t he?
>
> > And this wasn't long ago either. This was two and three weeks ago. And he didn't tell me the truth until it was too late to move.
>
> I want to believe that this has been a countertransferential oversight rather than a deliberate lie. I want to believe that he is so committed to being a good therapist to you that he wasn’t able to acknowledge to himself that he was setting you up for another hurt. I want to believe that he genuinely wishes to be the therapist you need and so finds it hard to face his own shortcomings. It’s the best spin I can think to put on it. And it still leaves him lacking in basic professional competence.
>
> > I'm inclined to leave my husband and get out of town anyway, at least until this horrible addiction is broken. Because I know that I don't have the strength to stay here and not see him.
>
> I think there is a very real question about your sense of self worth. If he has hurt you repeatedly and knows it and has promised to make things change, and now has hurt you again, it must be absolutely devastating. It’s the sort of thing that would floor anyone, but for someone with mental health problems it’s unspeakable. He needs to agree to a long term solution and he needs to stick to it. And one thing he needs to do is to make sure that he will be able to provide adequate care for you when he gets other jobs. He can’t expect you to wait for him to return, or to see him one evening in twenty-five. He has a very real responsibility for you and it’s time he got his head around it.
>
> ((((((((((Dinah))))))))))
>
> Give him hell.
>
>
Posted by fairywings on June 16, 2006, at 18:35:40
In reply to Re: I would, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 12:01:29
(((((Dinah))))
I think getting out of town, till the attachment subsides is a good idea....if you can do it w/o hurting yourself more. I'm glad you're going on Father's Day.....I hope you're still as angry, and can tell him. He's betrayed your trust big time. I'd be angry, hurt, feel betrayed, want to quit, want to vent my anger, want all my money back. Even if somehow he convinced you to stay with him, this situation will likely damage your relationship beyond repair. I know it would for me.
Let us know how it goes!
fw
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 16, 2006, at 21:04:47
In reply to Thank heavens for Risperdal, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 17:15:17
Dinah,
I hate to even ask this, but can you trust him to actually tell you the truth about what he knew when? I don't think I could trust him....
HUGS,
MidnightBlue
Posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 21:58:23
In reply to Re: Thank heavens for Risperdal » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on June 16, 2006, at 21:04:47
Maybe it's just what I need to believe. But I don't think he flat out lies. He may like by avoiding or omitting, but I don't think he'd tell an untruth.
I may be absolutely furious with him, and angry at how I let him hurt me over and over and over again in a way I haven't let anyone hurt me except my mother before I emotionally divorced her. And I might wish I could emotionally divorce him. But I have to confess that I have a hard time thinking of him as an intentionally bad man. A flawed man, certainly. A man who hurts me, yes. A man who is either dense or intentionally blind, yes.
Sigh. I wish I really could hate him. Or at least protect myself from him.
I wonder if I saw the potential for him to hurt me when I made him into my therapist/mommy? If I had some weird compulsion to recreate being hurt by my real mother. No, maybe not. He's flawed in different ways. I probably chose him as my therapist mommy because he was so different than my mother or father or husband. I just didn't realize that that brand of fantasy came with its own pain.
Posted by MidnightBlue on June 16, 2006, at 23:45:11
In reply to Re: Thank heavens for Risperdal » MidnightBlue, posted by Dinah on June 16, 2006, at 21:58:23
((((((((((((((((Dinah))))))))))))))))))
I'm so sorry. So VERY sorry for all your pain.
HUGS,
MidnightBlue
Posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 16:33:26
In reply to Re: Thank heavens for Risperdal » Dinah, posted by MidnightBlue on June 16, 2006, at 23:45:11
Are you nervous about your appointment tomorrow? Do you know what you are going to say to him? I am sure this is on your mind right now, so I hope your Dh can at least support you now.
Well I hope you post about this tomorrow, I will be looking for you. I am hoping it all turns out okay and you will feel better. (((((Dinah))))
Posted by Dinah on June 17, 2006, at 17:21:34
In reply to Dinah, how are you tonight?, posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 16:33:26
Thanks Happyflower.
Again, thank heavens for Risperdal. I woke up with very dark thoughts, but a couple of hours after taking my max dose of Risperdal I felt well enough to do some work, and also do some stuff around the house. I just need to make sure I keep taking it regularly at maximum dose.
I know that what I want to do tomorrow is to ask him when he knew. I have planned out in my mind to describe what date I want to know if it was before or after, and how to tell him why it's important for me to know.
I've also practiced telling him why it *is* a big deal. Much bigger this time than when he usually does it. Because even if he had told me last Sunday about it, it wasn't too late to move at all. It was too late to move without a big price tag, but we could have still moved. Now we can't. Our bridges are burned. And if I had known last Sunday I would have tried to make sure we moved. Because the only insurmountable reason for staying was the promise of future stability in therapy.
So I've got it all planned out.
Of course, when I have it all planned out, it all goes terribly wrong. I've already apologized to my husband for ruining his fathers day. He's being pretty nice about it. But he's kind of angry that I'm so upset about not moving, because it makes him feel like he did the wrong thing. Poor man.
Posted by curtm on June 17, 2006, at 17:29:32
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2006, at 17:21:34
What movie was it where somebody chained this car's axle to a pole or something and when the driver took off it ripped the entire rear end out off the SFB's car? Anyone remeber that? Poet?
Posted by fallsfall on June 17, 2006, at 17:54:42
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight?, posted by curtm on June 17, 2006, at 17:29:32
American Graffitti. A great movie!
Posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 18:38:17
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2006, at 17:21:34
What is Risperdal and what does it do? I wonder if I should get something like that?
I knew you would have a plan, so good luck tomrorow. Let us know how it goes, okay. ((((Dinah)))
Posted by wishingstar on June 17, 2006, at 19:31:21
In reply to Sh*t faced B*STARD, posted by Dinah on June 15, 2006, at 19:16:22
Posted by gardenergirl on June 17, 2006, at 20:52:06
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight? » Dinah, posted by happyflower on June 17, 2006, at 18:38:17
Posted by fairywings on June 17, 2006, at 23:14:23
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight? » happyflower, posted by Dinah on June 17, 2006, at 17:21:34
I hope your appt goes well, and you can ask him about the dates. Do you have it planned out how you'll respond to various things he might say?
Good luck,
fw
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 12:28:23
In reply to Re: Dinah, how are you tonight? » Dinah, posted by fairywings on June 17, 2006, at 23:14:23
He said it wasn't a job. Just a two month assignment. He said it wasn't my business if he took a two month assignment, and I agreed but insisted it was my business to be informed of how said assignment would affect my therapy.
He said it was my choice what to do about moving. I agreed but insisted that I had the right to all information when making my choice. And that it was very bad of him to decide for me that this wasn't important and not to tell me. Not just thoughtless or careless of my feelings and need for security as usual. But bad. I made a choice that was bad enough before, but now it was a choice made for nothing.
Thursday he told me he could only see clients at night and *maybe* at lunch. Today he said he was sure he could see me at lunch, so I was upset about nothing. It wouldn't be like last time. I suggested to him that if he was certain he could tell me each Sunday what day and time he could see me that week, that he back that up by promising to give me a free session if he couldn't make that time because of work. When he was silent, I noted that he was sure enough to risk my pain, but not sure enough to risk his money. I then declined the second appointment during the week, because I didn't want to be waiting for the phone to ring like a middle school girl waiting for a call from a guy. He said that I could make that choice if I wished.
When I said that he encouraged me to stay, he replied that it wasn't because he wanted me to stay, but because I seemed upset at the thought of leaving. Wow. Thanks.
He wanted to know if I intended to continue therapy. I told him I'd like to continue to see him long enough to have my love and hate for him turn to indifference. He said he didn't know if he was willing to continue therapy under those circumstances. I told him that he had hurt me enough already. Was he going to hurt me more by abandoning and rejecting and terminating me while I still felt an attachment to him? Then I said some more things that I probably can't repeat here under Dr. Bob's rules.
As it stands now, I have an engagement next Sunday, so we have an appointment for two Sundays from now. I'll make sure to stay at my maximum Risperdal dose. And I'll try to make it work while staying at home with my husband and son. If I don't feel like I can do this, I'll have to consider what to do next.
He has disappointed me greatly.
All the time he kept everything in that neutral language. He didn't hurt me, I felt hurt. Stuff like that. Towards the end he said that he thought he had told me, that he believed me when I said he hadn't, and that if he hadn't told me as he thought he had then that was negligent and bad. After he repeated that a few times, I told him that since he believed me when I said we'd never discussed this, he should drop the conditional "if" and just say that not telling me was negligent and bad. And he did.
I just don't know...
Posted by Poet on June 18, 2006, at 12:53:43
In reply to As could be expected., posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 12:28:23
((((Dinah))))
<<He wanted to know if I intended to continue therapy. I told him I'd like to continue to see him long enough to have my love and hate for him turn to indifference. He said he didn't know if he was willing to continue therapy under those circumstances. I told him that he had hurt me enough already.
GOOD FOR YOU! Though it would take my a very long time to have hate turn to indifference if he was my T.
<< When I said that he encouraged me to stay, he replied that it wasn't because he wanted me to stay, but because I seemed upset at the thought of leaving. Wow. Thanks.
Yeah, wow, thanks a lot, jerk. Dinah, I truly think he's hurting you far more than helping you. Terminating you would be less hurtful than sitting there acting surprised about your reactions to what he says and does. I think he's playing a game and you don't deserve to be a pawn in that game.
Poet
Posted by fairywings on June 18, 2006, at 12:57:27
In reply to As could be expected., posted by Dinah on June 18, 2006, at 12:28:23
I'm sorry this turned out to be so disappointing. I'd be furious! It all sounds so freaking cold and heartless. I agree, I'd want the pain to subside, and then get the h*ll away from him! Mad, hurt, confused, feeling like needing an escape - and so much more would be flying through my head. Any chance you can take advantage of not being able to see him for 2 weeks, and get through the next 12 day, cancel, get out of town, and try to get beyond the hurt, so you can try not to go back. I'd never want to see him again!
((((((cyberhugs))))))
fw
Posted by Frida on June 18, 2006, at 13:26:43
In reply to Re: As could be expected. » Dinah, posted by fairywings on June 18, 2006, at 12:57:27
Dear Dinah,
I'm really sorry to hear all this.
He does seem to be so cold at the moment..How hurtful.
If my T of 6 years were to do this, I think I would demand her to tell me how she's truly feeling about all this and to own his mistakes and tell me something from her heart, not so coldly. You've been through a lot together, a lot of years, you've invested so much in this relationship.I am really sorry he's being this way. You deserve so much better from him. :-(
support to you
Frida
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