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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 59. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 10:36:43
Hmmm. Just my two cents.
I often wonder to myself why this is such a "hot button" issue & I guess it strikes different deep chords for everyone.
But, having said that, let me just give you a perspective from someone who's SO is a psychiatrist. This is not to minimize anyone's feelings! - but I think if she had a dime for every patient who had feelings for her or was in love with her, she could buy a small island in the Carribbean. This comes up often for every person in the mental health field, it's considered commonplace and they are taught how to deal with that.
Idealizing someone is easy when you only see them for such a finite period of time. The "frame" of therapy is what should make things so safe - in order for one to explore their feelings. - It's different when you sleep next to that same person & they're snoring and you feel like smothering them with a pillow.
Therapists don't need to protected from our feelings, nor us from them. "We" won't kill them with negative feelings - & sadly, we can't make them love us with postive ones either.
& I guess until some therapists get on here & begin declaring their "love" for their patients - then we are all pretty safe.
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 11:03:11
In reply to (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 10:36:43
Have you read "In Session"? I think if you haven't you will find that this is a huge issue for so many people simply because it is so common place and we all think we can avoid falling into these feelings.
So many times in life you might become attracted to someone but no where else are expected to talk about it. And this can be scary if you've been hurt or taken advantage of before and very embarrassing if you consider yourself to "know better." And there are enough reports about therapists who do cross the line for it to be a concern.
Speaking for myself, I don't think I can hurt my therapist with my feelings, nor would I ever presume that I could make him love me. In fact the opposite is what goes on for me. I ask myself, "how DARE I feel this way? Who do I think I am? I'm not special, I'm just another client. He is married...his wife works next door! I'm married too." And on and on. What I also think is that I could lose him because of these feelings -- not romantic loss -- but loss of a very good therapist that I trust and care about.
It sometimes seems to me that people forget that while a therapist may have experienced this thousands of times, it is the first time for me. And while it is part of their daily experience, it isn't mine. And I know they've had training to handle these feelings, but I haven't. So intellectually I hear and agree with everything you said. And yet I still have developed these feelings.
Mostly, your post reinforces one of my biggest fears. That therapists go home and say, "God, you can't believe what I heard today. Another silly woman expressing her love for me." :(
Posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 11:29:09
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 11:03:11
Hi,
Nice to meet you.
Just to clarify, I don't think anywhere in my post did I state what "we" talk about as couple, nor about what goes on in her work - only that this a pervasive issue.
My post was only to say that this should not be a shameful subject, nor embarassing.
I'm really sorry I didn't make myself clear enough.
Posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 11:30:31
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 11:29:09
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 14:09:45
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 11:29:09
Yes, but...
How would you know so many people felt this way if she didn't tell you? And I guess "if she had a dime for" -- does feel a little bit like minimization.
Admittable I'm super sensitive to this right now though. I'm not trying to argue with you -- just with public perception in general. You are just handy at the moment. Sorry...
So - can I ask a prying question? Do you ever get jealous or annoyed with her patients? I know intellectually it is "just" her job. But I also know how demanding some of us can be.
Welcome to Babble, too, btw...I think you will add a lot to our conversatins.
Daisy
Posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:05:23
In reply to (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 10:36:43
Hi, and thanks for contributing your perspective.
I don’t know why, but I found some of those ideas quite terrifying. Maybe it’s the idea that my feelings could be equivalent to a dime; maybe it’s that they’re commonplace. They don’t ‘feel’ commonplace to me. I’ve never felt this way about anyone before.
I know intellectually that my therapist might well snore. I know he doesn’t need to be protected from my feelings. What terrifies me is that my feelings for him might be meaningless to him. That’s what I find scary. That my love for him is insignificant. That he doesn’t want my love; he has been taught to ‘deal’ with it; it is merely a feature of my pathology.
Maybe I'm just too depressed to talk about this...
Tamar
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:18:30
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:05:23
THAT'S IT!!! (imagine Lucy from Peanuts)
You said what I was trying to figure out, why the post rang true but was so awful to think about.
And, God Bless my therapist, I told him a little about this thread and he said that "this" (talking about loving feelings in therapy) doesn't happen as often as people think, it isn't talked about nearly enough because people are afraid to actually say it out loud and it makes him feel honored and special whenever anyone comes to trust him enough to not only feel this way about him, but tell him they do. Who doesn't want to be loved? he said.
Posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:47:55
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Tamar, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 20:18:30
> THAT'S IT!!! (imagine Lucy from Peanuts)
I love Peanuts! And I think I am Lucy...
> You said what I was trying to figure out, why the post rang true but was so awful to think about.
>
> And, God Bless my therapist, I told him a little about this thread and he said that "this" (talking about loving feelings in therapy) doesn't happen as often as people think, it isn't talked about nearly enough because people are afraid to actually say it out loud and it makes him feel honored and special whenever anyone comes to trust him enough to not only feel this way about him, but tell him they do. Who doesn't want to be loved? he said.I'm keeping a copy of your post. That's exactly the sort of thing I want my therapist to say to me...
Thanks, Daisy.
Tamar
Posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 21:05:30
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » daisym, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:47:55
I had already printed out one of Daisy's post from today (the "smile tucked inside my heart" one) and now I'll need to print Tamar's reply and Daisy's reply to that. It's exactly right!! They'll be the first set of posts that I'm bringing into my T. Thanks for putting words to feelings, so hard sometimes.
Before Thanksgiving when I was struggling with this topic, my T did let me know that not only did I matter to her, but she would think of me outside the office sometimes. She said, "How could I work so closely with you and not have feelings? I'm a real person, not a robot, of course you matter."
Posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 23:02:23
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 21:05:30
What a nice answer she gave you, Annie. It touched me.
I noticed the other day that something I had given my therapist to mark our two year "anniversary" was tucked on top of the Pandora's Box I gave him last year, and both were on his desk. It made me smile a little, thinking that he cared enough about me to leave them on display. I totally expected them to be at the top of a closet somewhere.
See -- sometimes totally adolescent crush stuff. *sigh*
Posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by annierose on November 30, 2005, at 21:05:30
First,
There are all kinds of love, romantic love is just one of them, but not the only one I was talking about. With my previous therapist, I wanted to be good - in order to be loved. But I have since realized, with much pain - that it was not her job to love me, to care - yes, love -no. It's up to me to love myself.
Good therapists care - I did not say, nor imply anywhere in my post that my SO doesn't care or that therapists in general don't care. They do.
Second, this post was directed at no one in particular. & I sincerely hope no one is taking it personally. I only meant to open a dialogue about this, because as some of you have stated, it is not often enough discussed at all.
I understand perhaps that some of you are maybe (?) going through a tough time with this issue. But please do not read into a general post I made, & regard it (if you have, & I don't know - but I get that feeling) as a personal attack on you & your therapy or therapist.
& not to get into semantics, but when I spoke of dimes - it was a colloquialism & was meant in terms of frequency, not value.
Best of luck to you all.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 30, 2005, at 23:49:26
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
Posted by muffled on December 1, 2005, at 0:00:11
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
Posted by daisym on December 1, 2005, at 0:07:32
In reply to I reiterate - to all!!, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 23:10:37
No problem with me -- really. I AM struggling with this, what I know and what I feel are so different. Just because something is frightening doesn't mean it is wrong, or right or both. I think you just struck a raw nerve for some of us. It sounds like you've really benefited from your therapy and have a solid sense of self. I'm jealous.
I appreciate that you were trying to normalize these feelings. It seems like it is very hard to do that with out minimizing them, and yet my fear is that there will be repercussions for having them. It is so very complicated.
And btw, I'm glad you said your SO cares. I think that is really important. I sort of assumed so if her patients fall in love with her. :)
Posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on November 30, 2005, at 20:05:23
>>Maybe I'm just too depressed to talk about this...
Hi there dear Tamar,
Sorry if your're still feeling so down....but, no, I don't think it's your depression "talking."
I'm not in the least depressed at the moment (for me - which is plenty good enough right now) and I reacted almost exactly as you did to those ideas.
Perhaps I'm a bit too "chicken" to even hear what the SO of a pdoc has to say.....but it's like the proverbial car wreck....possibly horrifying but you still just have to look.....
It's a confusing, scary and difficult topic. One I'm dealing with on some level right now with my T. (not romantic and/or sexual at the moment....that was ex-T <sigh> ) and it takes a lot out of both of us to try to keep working through it.
I've said some of your words and ones that mean the same just today and last week in therapy.
"I can't stand feeling I might be invisible..."
"How will I ever know, really know, that *I* - me 10der the person - matters to you? The thought I really could just not matter is awful..."
"I'm terrified that this atttachment is all just..."ho-hum" to you. And if so, that means I'm nothing, not special, not unique, not anything but a subject to be studied in here..."
And on and on...(ad nauseum, I sometimes think).
It's hard as h*ll but we keep talking about it...
Posted by Tamar on December 1, 2005, at 7:28:15
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Tamar, posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
Hi 10der,
Thanks for that!
> Perhaps I'm a bit too "chicken" to even hear what the SO of a pdoc has to say.....but it's like the proverbial car wreck....possibly horrifying but you still just have to look.....
Yeah. I couldn’t help imagining my therapist’s partner... Not that I’ve ever met her…
> It's a confusing, scary and difficult topic. One I'm dealing with on some level right now with my T. (not romantic and/or sexual at the moment....that was ex-T <sigh> ) and it takes a lot out of both of us to try to keep working through it.
Yes, it’s certainly not easy, is it?
> I've said some of your words and ones that mean the same just today and last week in therapy.
>
> "I can't stand feeling I might be invisible..."
>
> "How will I ever know, really know, that *I* - me 10der the person - matters to you? The thought I really could just not matter is awful..."
>
> "I'm terrified that this atttachment is all just..."ho-hum" to you. And if so, that means I'm nothing, not special, not unique, not anything but a subject to be studied in here..."
>
> And on and on...(ad nauseum, I sometimes think).
>
> It's hard as h*ll but we keep talking about it...You’re doing really well. It’s wonderful that you can keep talking about all this. I really admire your courage.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 9:50:47
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Tamar, posted by 10derHeart on December 1, 2005, at 1:04:12
I gotta admit, I don't like to think of my therapist talking about me to his wife, even without my name. I'm sure he probably does it, because I know I called with a crisis at least once while they were out to dinner or something. And I tracked him down after the hurricane by dialing his cell phone incessantly until the spotty communications got through and by trying text messaging. And he did meet me at the house he was staying at, which required making sure that there was no one around.
So I know she knows of his needy dependent client (who provides a hefty base income). But if he ever discloses talking about me to her, or if I ever heard her talking about him talking about me, I would be devastated. Even without names, and even in generalities that I can identify as myself.
I don't even like to know I've been discussed in supervision in a professional capacity. I sure don't want to be discussed when his therapist hat isn't on.
So I don't think it's anything you said, Cine. It's just a confirmation of a private fear for all of us.
Please keep posting. I've found your posts to be very insightful.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:02:40
In reply to (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by one woman cine on November 30, 2005, at 10:36:43
Interesting and very valid perspective, but I have to respectfully but strongly disagree with this statement:
> they [mental health professionals] are taught how to deal with that.
Many of them are NOT and have NO IDEA how to deal with it. I suffered for years because of one such person, but my situation was not that unusual, I don't think. (See, e.g., "In Session: The Bond between Women and Their Therapists")
They should be, though.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:08:43
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by daisym on November 30, 2005, at 11:03:11
> Mostly, your post reinforces one of my biggest fears. That therapists go home and say, "God, you can't believe what I heard today. Another silly woman expressing her love for me." :(That's what I heard, too, Daisy. :(
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 14:33:14
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:02:40
Hi,
Just for the record, my previous therapist was one of the WORST therapists I have ever encountered and I also share with you (anyway, I think I share) the devastating effects of bad therapy. She had no idea about frames and boundaries and on endlessly proclaimed herself to be my "good mother". It's another kind of love, but to me - it's even worse than romantic love b/c it's such a primary relationship - the mother/child bond. It's laughable to me now, how she could even propose this; & through her utter ineptitude, I have learned alot about myself and the therapy process - but it was & still is something painful I grapple with all too often.
But I still disagree; most therapists who go through proper training (& I emphasize this - b/c there is a proportion of therapists who don't, in my opinion), discuss and explore this sensitive issue in their own education and hopefully, therapy.
I hope we can agree to disagree.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » crushedout, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 14:33:14
Sounds like we had a similar (bad) therapy experience.
It's fine to disagree but not fair to change the statement. You backpedaled and said: "most therapists who go through proper training" -- seems kinda circular, to me. If their training is proper, then of course they have been prepared for for these sorts of issues. Maybe you are trying to suggest that we disagree as to the proportion of therapists who are properly trained? I have no idea because it sounds like you agree with me that some of them aren't, as you were a victim yourself of one such therapist.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:48:58
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
I just realized I'm being pedantic. Because I objected to the tone of the original post and felt put down by it, the way Daisy described so much more directly. Daisy, you seem like a model when it comes to expressing your feelings!you are vulnerable without lashing out and you let people know how they've made you feel without attacking them.
i think that's an amazing skill and i want to have it.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:05:14
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy, posted by Dinah on December 2, 2005, at 9:50:47
Thanks for weighing in on this post.
I just want to say, again; that people have expressed dismay and fear that they are being discussed outside of their therapists office - but that is not what I said. Confidentialality is a sacred thing - but I understand why people would infer that's what I'm saying. I think perhaps b/c it's such a great fear.
There are good and bad therapists; I have had bad ones, horrible in fact. Now I have a good one. & part of feeling "taken care" in therapy for me, is about having a definable frame. My last therapist would call me a few times a week unasked just to "talk", our meeting times were unpredictable - & generally therapy was oozing into every portion of my life. The great thing about good therapy, I think, is that you can leave - but carry the ideas or the therapist around internally (in your head or heart). But if that isn't present, it can throw one into a serious maelstrom. It did for me.
& basically, I brought up this topic b/c I think most people in therapy "love" their therapists in one form or another. It helps to know one isn't alone with this - but I think it would've helped me alot to know early on (if I knew then what I know now, sheesh) that no matter what I did - she was never going to "love" me in the way I needed to be loved (or she promised - but that's something different). It would have been far better for me, to work on why I needed to be love in that way. There was no reality & no perspective outside of the therapy, of what was real and what wasn't. She was never going to be the mother I needed, she wasn't going to be my mother, period. I had a mother, & things didn't work out & that's something for me to explore.
I'm sorry this went off on a tangent, but I just wanted to explain part of my reason for the initial post.
& thanks for the invitation to post again, despite the difficult and uncomfortable subject.
Posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:13
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » one woman cine, posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 14:44:47
No, I'm not backpedaling at all. I think we disagree as to the proportion who are not properly trained. That's just an educated guess on my part, I suppose. I think psychiatrists have to be supervised, whereas (I think) social workers don't. I have had therapists who had no therapy, no supervision, no training - just school.
But I think, I would like to think, that most, most therapists are trained. I would like to think I got a bad apple.
Posted by crushedout on December 2, 2005, at 15:10:22
In reply to Re: (Yet) another perspective on love in therapy » Dinah, posted by one woman cine on December 2, 2005, at 15:05:14
and you express things beautifully. please do keep posting.
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