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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 21:58:13
I think that's what they think, but I don't necessarily agree.
I've found that seeing myself reflected in someone else's eyes can be the most unbelievably attitude altering thing in the world. I've found that with my son at times. And I've found it on Babble sometimes. I can think of two times right away where something Tabitha said and something Rod said were close enough to my view of myself, yet with a slight shift in emphasis, that they helped me have a slight but perceptible tilt in self appraisal. Life is probably full of those little tilts. Some positive and some negative.
Hmmm.... My therapist might have given me more than a few of those moments too. Just not with a direct statement about my goodness.
Posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:00:19
Pinkeye -
I know you are sleeping right now, but I just read your conversation with Dinah. I do agree with everything she had to say, and she is so good at communicating.I just wanted to let you know that I feel so badly for all your confusion. Your father did a terrible thing to you. Of course that would confuse you.
I guess what I wish for is for you is to begin making boundaries for yourself. Instead of trying to be a "good wife", try to be true to yourself. Ask yourself, do I want to see movies with my friends? or share a meal in a restaurant, eggs or steak? ... if the answer is "yes", then talk to your husband. You're not a bad wife, but rather, could he be a demanding husband?
All marriages are about compromise. And you don't want to offend your husband, but it sounds like you are bending over backwards for him and losing who you are in the process.I think I understand that you grew up in India, but are now living in the United States? But your husband wants you to go back to some other country and live with his parents? That would be extremely difficult for ANYBODY!! Don't let him make you feel like you are not being a "good daughter-in-law". That is tough!! I don't mean to make judgements, because I don't know you or him personally, but he sounds controlling. That says way more about him, than you. And all these issues with personal boundaries, goes back to your father.
I am glad you are working with another T. I know you miss your T from India, and that is understandable. I hope you have time to develop a new relationship with this one. Good Luck Pinkeye, my heart goes out to you.
Posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:24:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days. » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 9, 2005, at 22:08:19
> But it is perhaps not possible for the Ts to go and tell their clients that they like them wihtout really liking them. So that is why they don't do it.
I don't think that's why they don't do it. I think they don't do it because they don't think they can ever fill a client up with those kind of assurances. Because those assurances are like water on a parched earth. They're just soaked up and the earth is still hungry for more.
They're aiming for a more fundamental change. Like building canals to change the parched earth into fertile producing soil, rather than just watering.
Of course, this might not be true of all therapists. Some may be free with positive words of praise. Mine just isn't.
But it's not because he thinks poorly of me. I knew him when he didn't like me so much. So I know what that feels like, and I know he does like me now. Not the sort of liking where he thinks I'm perfect or anything. But the sort of liking that comes when you can smile when another person reveals their shortcomings and think how very like them that is. Not that he doesn't want me to grow, but he understands me where I am now, and he's ok with me being there.
But the only compliments I ever remember him giving are about old pictures of myself, never the person in the room with him.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:45:59
In reply to Re: Taking a break for couple of days., posted by annierose on May 9, 2005, at 22:18:14
That is true Annierose. Though my husband wants to go back to India where my parents are also there, and it is not so bad.
But I think I don't have clear and firm boundaries. I end up taking too much responsibility and then keep silent and keep taking blame on myself more and more, and then let it accumulate and boil over, and one day I burst. And then blame everyone around me. I did that a while back once..
And then I get extremely angry and throw things and behave like mad.. I think from the beginnning I should start enforcing more good boundaries and let people take responsibility for their own feelings instaed of keep on doing things for them.. I have done the same thing again with my husband for the past two years - bent over backwards to accommodate him and please him, and now I am getting very angry.
IT is actually not taking too much responsibility that is the problem, it is taking too much blame and guilt that is more of an issue.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
In reply to P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree, posted by Dinah on May 9, 2005, at 22:10:07
That is true.
Also what you said yesterday about not trying to please others is so true. I do that all the time, and I get burnt out, and end up taking it out on them at the end anyway.
I am so afraid of hurting my father's feelings and my husband's feelings and then I just try to accommodate everyone, and then in the end anyway I collapse, and they have no clue what is going on.. Because in their mind everything was going fine and I was happy. But I keep everything inside, and all the anger bursts one day. I should have first refused to marry my husband if I had wanted to stay in the US.. but I just said yes yes, and then finally realized it is too much for me. And I let my dad direct all my actions, and then one day I am blaming him too much.
Maybe from the beginning if I guard my own interests then maybe they will get upset, but they might be able to deal with it..
I am so afraid of making anyone upset, and I just try to please please please, and then one day, it becomes too much for me, and I become ill and stressed, and they have no clue what is going on. I think I picked up this habit as a child, because I couldn't refuse my dad and stand him getting angry at me. I thought he was all right and I was all wrong. Maybe atleast now I should start looking at things a different way. And I thought I was not a good person, and my dad was perfect. But now I know it is not so.
Thanks guys.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
In reply to Re: P.S. (For tomorrow) I don't necessarily agree » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 12:56:11
hmm. now that I think about it, that is the same feedback I get all the time from my managers in work also.. That I don't raise the alarm fast enough if things aren't going well for me.. That I keep trying to manage everything by myself, and then only when it comes out of hand, that I tell them. That I don't escalate issues early enough and I try to manage everything by myself and try to work on behalf of others, and let my deliverables slip sometimes.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
In reply to No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:22:02
And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude.. Many times, I am smart enough to realize when things aren't going in the correct direction in the work earlier than even others. But I just keep quite. And I blame myself, that I don't know too much..and finally end up taking the blame. It just happened recently also. I was not at all responsible for the failure of something, but ended up taking the blame at the end.
Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:49:51
In reply to Re: No good boundaries. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 13:28:39
Hmm.. I am just realizing, how much happier I could have been.
I am really capable of being happy also.. many times I have been extremely happy and cheerful. And I like interacting with people. I love writing to people in this board.. And generally I get along well with people.. And I can work very well if I want to. And my arthritis also gets lot better when I am happy.
Then why I am just not doing it? Why is it I always need to be suffering? It is so pathetically bad to have all this capacity for happiness and fulfillment, and just let it slide everytime.
I really don't have any bitterness towards my dad or mom or husband.
And I don't have any bitterness or anger towards anyone too much.. I have liked almost all the people I have met so far, maybe except a handful.
I liked my ex T a lot, and I like my current T also.. I don't have any complaints.Then why do I allow myself to get hurt all the time, and just be in a bad mood?
> And I think I do it, because of this basic undeserving attitude..
> Somehow if I could convince myself that I am as worthy as others, that I am a woman, (not a tom boy or a child), and that I deserve to be happy and don't have to feel guilty or take blame, that men would like me and it is ok to be smart and career oriented, I think I will be completely allright.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:55:24
In reply to I could be so much happier. » pinkeye, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:49:51
I just realized the answer to it.. except maybe myself.. I like everyone else, other than myself, and I don't have bitterness towards anyone else, other than myself..
I don't hold anyone else responsible, but I hold myself extremely responsible, and I generally don't blame others, but I blame myself all the time.
I have hurt myself way too much more than I have hurt anyone else.. and actually I haven't really hurt anyone that much.
Even when my dad punished me that I needed to die, and asked me to kind of hang myself, I accepted it, and I thought I deserved to die. That day, I really thought I was going to die, and that I deserved it, and I didn't protest. I cried, but went ahead with the motions.. I could have just ran out of the house or something.. I didn't do it. I never protested against my dad. I could have told him I didn't like to hug him all that much, that I wanted to sleep separately. I could have asked him to stop shouting at me. I didn't do it.
> I really don't have any bitterness towards my dad or mom or husband.
> And I don't have any bitterness or anger towards anyone too much.. I have liked almost all the people I have met so far, maybe except a handful.
> I liked my ex T a lot, and I like my current T also.. I don't have any complaints.
>
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 14:55:24
And I have taken lot of shame at the way how I served as a kind of pseudo wife to my dad.. I thought somehow I made him treat me like that.. I thought I wanted to have a relationship like that with my dad, but I know I have total repulsion for that kind of relationship. And I could have told my dad to stop - to stop discussing everything with me, to stop leaning on me for support, to not treat me as himself and make me do stuff that he didn't do himself. I could have told him to stop and that I am not going to take all the bull**** anymore. I could have told him I didn't like him touching me all that much, that I would prefer my own private space.
But maybe he didn't let me, I remember I wanted to sleep separately, but then he said he was just my dad.. And my mom also went with that.. she didn't protest either. Many times, I would be so ashamed if my mom or some servants come inside the room and I was with my father - all the time sitting on his lap or hugging him etc, but I didn't protest. I could have said I really really didn't like it, and he is a good man, he would have listened. In all likelihood he was very innocent, and he thought he was just being cute or affectionate, but I ddin't like it one bit. Instead I kept silent, but started becoming too fat, because I didn;t want to be attractive .. I think it was all due to the shame I felt at my own body and my relationship with my dad. And my mother didn't matter at all for my dad.. it was all the time me me me. In some ways, I think I took on that role to protect my mother.. because once he realized that I was turning out to be exactly what he wanted, then he started mellowing down on my mom. He didn't scold her too much after that. And I think my mom was just happy to have him off her back, and she didn't protest either.
And I wanted to wear more girly kind of clothes, and I wanted to have long hair, and I wanted to have sleep overs with my cousins, and wanted to be more close to friends, and my dad didn't let me do any of it. Till I was 15 or 16, I hadn't stayed away from both my parents even for a day.
I kept silent all that time, for so many years, and it is too late now.
Posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 15:38:56
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
Pinkeye -
How your father treated you, is not your fault. I know this sounds hard, but he was cruel. He abused his privilege as your father, and blurred the boundaries into a completely different type of proper father/daughter relationship. You are not to blame for his behavior. Any person living under those circumstances would have troubles later on. That is certain.Please continue your hard work in therapy. You need to understand that it's not your fault. It's okay to be angry with a situation that wasn't within your control.
Setting personal boundaries must be very difficult for you. Is your husband aware of your relationship with your father? I hope you find the courage to start finding out what "pinkeye" wants and needs to live a more fullfilling life, in whatever country she lives in.
Do you ever discuss sexual matters with your T? I find your husbands refusal of sex interesting.
Baby-steps. Sometimes when I decide I need to start acting a certain way, I want to drastically change everything right now! I am learning, a more realistic and lasting approach is work on these changes more slowly. My husband has more time to get accustomed to the new "Annie" and how things are going to be from here on out. And I have more time to practice the new behavior. So it really does become a part of who I am.
Right now I'm working on not taking my husband's "garbage" when he gets angry. It's amazing that he is really starting to get it, that his tone and language are no longer acceptable, and it needs to stop. This change is taking close to a year ... so time is important.
I feel so much pain for you and your situation. I would like to ask your father, "what were you thinking?"
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 16:09:31
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by annierose on May 10, 2005, at 15:38:56
Thanks Annie for your thoughts. I wasn;'t really abused sexually.. That would have been a different story. If I had that, I would have killed my dad.
But I think he thought he was just being very warm and cuddly cuddly and treating me like a doll kind of thing. He is basically a very good man, and I think he was completely confused himself. But I do know he could have known better. he was a doctor for christsake, and I remember very clearly, my grandfather and many others telling my dad many times not to touch a girl child so much.. He used to even hug me in front of everyone, and hold my hands, and kiss me, and make me sit on his lap, even when I was 14 -15, and many people would be there.. I am pretty sure he was just very innocent.And I also would have been ok with it, if it just happened a few times.. But just that it was going on day after day, for years after years, I think that was the problem. And I couldn't refuse it, because I also realized that he was just being very affectionate.. Now I realize it was totally inappropriate way to show an affection. If I had a son, who is past 13 - 14, I wouldn't touch him so much. I wouldn't ask him to sleep hugging me and all that.
It was kind of mild physical abuse, and full blown emotional abuse.
My new T knows it, but my ex T didn't. I couldn't bring myself to tell him. Though, I might be able to tell him now, if I had a chance. Kind of tell him everything and if he forgives me, I might be able to forgive myself. I don't know.
My husband is into some religious cult and fanaticism.. But he is becoming more mellow now, and they wouldn't let him use birth controls, because it is agaisnt God or soemthing, so there is some problem. But I am really not all that concerned about it now. I am fine with the way things are.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 16:54:48
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
It isn't too late now. You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
I brought a few posts that I had written on this thread to therapy today. I told him that I hadn't even really realized that I had absorbed those things and truly believed them until I wrote them to you. I asked him if he was proud of me for my glacial progress. :) And he said that he was proud of me, and that he also felt good to be a therapist at that moment.
So if someone as stubborn and hardheaded as I am can change, you certainly can. A good start would be to sit down and start figuring out where you want your boundaries to lie.
And yes, they don't respond all that well at first. But I was surprised to find that it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. My mother and father both loved me and wanted to maintain a relationship with me, even if it wasn't on the terms they would prefer.
Posted by Shortelise on May 10, 2005, at 17:24:19
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 15:13:20
There it is again, looking back with our adult minds and thinking with our adult minds what we could have done back then.
We didn't do those things, couldn't do those things because we were CHILDREN.
We didn't know what would happen if we rejected the "love" we were being given.
We didn't know what would happen to us if we said no.
You were a child, Pinkeye, not the adult you are now.
I am sorry for that child. What a crap childhood.
SHortE
Posted by gardenergirl on May 10, 2005, at 18:46:07
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Shortelise on May 10, 2005, at 17:24:19
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:08:35
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 16:54:48
Thanks Dinah. Actually yesterday reading your posts felt really good. I was thinking oh my God she is so mature.
And I am glad your T said he is proud of you. You deserve it.
I am wondering why my ex T never said things like that to me. And my current T doesn't too. It might mean a lot to me too.. Actually I am crying now, I am just thinking how good it would be to get approval and "it is ok, you did what you could, and I am proud of you" kind of stuff from my ex T.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:13:37
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Shortelise on May 10, 2005, at 17:24:19
Thanks ShortE. I wonder if I would ever forgive myself fully.
I have a very hard time forgiving myself for anything.
And actually my childhood was not all that bad. There were some sort of psychological problems, but otherwise I think maybe I was ok. Or maybe not. I don't know. The point is, my parents had everything they needed. Especially my dad. A tiny bit of wisdom would have made my life completely fine. He had too much of inofmration, and I think he was not able to create full wisdom out of it..and he was just trying to live by little bit here, little bit there, never understanding anything about emotions, and didn't understand what it means to be emotionally a happy person, or rear a child. He had lot of inheritance, a beautiful wife, a good child, well respected in society, and good health himself. What more could a person get in life? And he spoiled everything. He lost his inheritance, he made my mom so very sad, and he made himself so fat, and he spoiled my happiness. It is almost like a person is given a paradise, and he turns it into hell.
I think my dad has several serious issues.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:33:08
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » Shortelise, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:13:37
After all this, I am just so very tired. I have been having a constant headache for the past few days.
Thanks a lot guys for your support. It meant the world to me during the difficult days.
I think I am making peace with stuff.. going to take it slowly.
I wonder what I would have done without this board and this kind of fast track getting things out.. If I have to do all this work that I did in the past week in therapy sessions, it could have taken months to get all the stuff out, and also I would have been able to go only 50 mins every week. It wouldn't have been enough, and this board is like therapy - whenever you want it, wherever you want it, by lots of different therapists :-) At my convenience, home or office. :-)
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 20:02:15
In reply to I am so tired but allright, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:33:08
But I am not angry with my dad even now. Am I supposed to be angry? I vent here a lot and try to recollect more stuff, and many times I am upset at what went on.
But I am not really angry with my father. I keep thinking he is a good guy basically. My new T says somehow I need to relive the anger again - otherwise she says it is all supressed. But I am not really able to be angry.. When I talk to him, I talk to him normally, and I think I still love him very much, and I know he loves me. How do you become angry when you are not? My T says it will be really really good for me if I could somehow make myself angry at him.. and I think I have also been trying to fuel my anger by venting here more and more. But it is not working. And she thinks my rheumatoid arhtirits is mostly due to that - bottled up anger, and I really would like to somehow get rid of it, if I could become angry at my dad. It is much easier for me to feel angry at someone else - maybe my husband but not my dad.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:07:11
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 19:08:35
This is ten years in, remember. And the reason he's proud is because I change ever so slowly. :) He's probably shocked senseless that something he said sunk in. But he didn't volunteer it you know. I said something like "I'm proud of me. Are you proud of me too?" Shy? Me? :)
It meant more to me when he said what I wrote made him feel good about being a therapist.
We also talked about the direct statements from therapists of a complimentary nature. He said your therapist's response was pretty much standard. That therapists are cautious about becoming too hmmm... can't remember exactly. Too big? Too important? Something like that. I told him that therapists were silly. :) Because they're important anyway. In addition to what I said about them wanting us to get that from ourselves.
You know, I remember that from Montessori for my son. You were never supposed to give global compliments. Oh, you're wonderful. Or you're a wonderful artist. You're supposed to say things like "I like the way you cleaned the table after you used it." or "I really liked the colors you used in your picture of a horse." And lots of "I'll bet you feel pretty proud of being able to master that puzzle."
I failed that parental test. I tell my son he's wonderful all the time. I'm not sure he likes it, so maybe they're right.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 20:19:53
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger**, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:07:11
:-). That is so funny :-). If I were a therapist, I would say to my client every chance that I got, that I liked them, that I loved them, that I am proud of them. Any decent ones. Total jerks are a different story - or maybe I should tell them more of it, because they are probably the ones who need it.
I still think my ex T couldn't bring himself to say he liked me - not even a little bit.. I asked him specifically, and I told him how bad it felt to think he disliked me and that was the response I got - that there was no question of him liking me or disliking.. Arggh. I hate that response so much. And that also in the last termination mail.. He should have understood how much it would hurt me. Atleast if I had seen him face to face or heard his voice that would have been a different story.. This kind of blank statment in a termination email was really hard - I don't care if it is a standard therapeutic response.. I didn't like it one bit, and I haven't made peace with it, and I don't think I ever will.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:32:54
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 20:19:53
I gotta admit that a final email was probably not the best place to give a standard therapeutic response, since there was no room for discussing your response to it.
So I'll concede that your therapist probably screwed up a bit there. Maybe he was a bit out of his depth. But it has not one single thing to do with you. It was a lapse on his part.
And it doesn't mean he didn't like you. Just that he used the wrong therapistism for the moment.
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 20:45:17
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:32:54
hmmm.. oh well, I can't do anything about it now :-(.
Pinkeye has to live with a few hurts in her life -well maybe lot of hurts - and this shall be one of them.
Thank you so much Dinah. I wish therapists would read board like these - they can understand so much more than what they are taught in those classrooms.
Posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:52:19
In reply to Re: I could be so much happier. **trigger** » Dinah, posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 20:45:17
Reading this board could seriously damage our therapeutic relationship. :(
Posted by pinkeye on May 10, 2005, at 21:05:12
In reply to Darn right. Except for mine of course. » pinkeye, posted by Dinah on May 10, 2005, at 20:52:19
:-)
And you are planning to ask him to be a guest expert here and not read your posts?
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