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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by rubenstein on April 18, 2005, at 10:56:46
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I am so sorry, that sounds so awful, the only thing that I can think of is maybe he was going through his own stuff that day and somehow it came across to you. I am so sorry hang in there.
Rubenstein
Posted by Dinah on April 18, 2005, at 11:15:28
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
It sounds like a bad day on his part. I know we don't like to think of them as being so horrendously imperfect. Especially because when they are, it really *is* a waste of our money.
I work on an hourly basis myself, and when I am doing a lousy job, I generally put down the amount of hours that would have been necessary were I doing a good job. Wouldn't it be refreshing if they did that? "You know, I was not myself last week and I don't feel right charging you for that hour."
As someone who's struggled with this a great deal (grin), I figure the best thing is to chalk it off to a bad day until the next session. Then reassess it at that point. Which doesn't mean I don't fret and obsess. It means that behind the fretting and obsessing is a bit of confidence that this too shall pass. And in my case at least, a bit of confidence that it will happen again.
And I can often learn a bit about myself from my own reaction. In my thread above, I think I've gone from a general sense of shock to distress coupled with insight. Do you think there is anything you can learn about yourself in your reaction to his surprising behavior?
Posted by Tamar on April 18, 2005, at 11:26:02
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Oh dear, what a horrible thing to happen. It sounds as if your T needs a course in basic human sympathy.
> I started off by telling him that I wanted to hold off on making a decision to going twice a week as we had recently been discussing, because I wanted to get my meds straightened out first. No sense changing more than one variable in the treatment picture at one time, I thought.
Do you think he had a problem accepting that? Does he think you shouldn’t be on meds? Might he have thought you were challenging his professional judgment? Of course, you have every right to do just that but some professionals are sensitive about it.
> Then I went on to talk about what was bothering me that week...which he pretty much blew off. Not like him at all. Tried to keep talking, and he seemed to get frustrated, because he kept interrupting me. He's been doing this more and more over the last few weeks. It's so annoying, especially because he admits he's interrupting!
Well, that sounds like a countertransference reaction to me. Have you tried asking him if there’s something in the content of what you’re saying that he finds problematic or frustrating? I can’t think of any other reason why he’d want to impose his own vocabulary, phraseology or even ideas on you. Or is he trying to rush you? The fact is, even if he *did* know what you wanted to say, he should listen quietly: *you* need to say it, not hear him say it. And since he doesn’t read minds, why should he superimpose his own thoughts onto your feelings?
> We got back to symptoms and such, and he told me no wonder I was feeling so yucky--I have clinical depression. For some reason, hearing him say this kind of hurt. Other times in the past when I had a recurrence and he recognized it, it was a validation.
That bit activated my transference-dar. I used to feel impossibly hurt sometimes when my T would state simple obvious facts.
> Tried to get back into the session, but he finally stopped and said that I had to make a choice (felt like ultimatum to me). Is my depression medical or psychological? If it's medical, he "can't help me." Can you believe he would say that in the same session that he would acknowledge that I'm doing worse?
Exactly how are you supposed to choose (can you hear my indignance)? If you had the luxury of choice, presumably you’d choose not to be depressed at all! And where’s the evidence to support his claim that he can’t help you if it’s medical? All the evidence I’ve seen suggests that therapy is useful to anyone who is depressed. (Have I been reading the wrong books?)
> And to top it all off, at the end, when I literally was standing up and getting ready to walk out, he asked, "You aren't suicidal, are you?" Sheesh, what if the answer had been yes?
Quite. Does he suppose that’s your p-doc’s responsibility? I had the impression that he’s a bit ambivalent about your meds.
> I so feel like he kicked me when I was already down. And I can't quite believe the emotions. Friday I was barely functional. Saturday was a bit better, but when I was getting my massage, I couldn't relax at all, and couldn't stop thinking about it. What a waste of money. I honestly considered cancelling my remaining appointments.
(((((Gardenergirl)))))
> I just can't believe that he could and did hurt me like this. I can't imagine how therapy can ever feel safe again. I am also just so darned angry. I go back and forth from sobbing to just wanting to quit to wanting to tell him off.
I know it will be hard, but I suspect you need to talk to him about all this. Do you have an appointment to see him this week? If you feel this has been going on for a while (especially the interrupting part) then no wonder you feel you’re losing the safety of therapy. If he’s saying too much, how can he expect to hear you? He seems to be trying to indicate that you’re not playing your role effectively in therapy, but in fact you seem to feel that he’s preventing you from doing what you need to do. And surely that needs to be discussed.
I hope the end of the rollercoaster line comes into view soon and that you find a way to keep on top of the emotions. Take care of yourself.
Tamar
Posted by antigua on April 18, 2005, at 12:20:13
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I hate when they point out the obvious--I feel belittled or something like that.
Maybe he was frustrated and was pushing your buttons to get a reaction from you? You seem to be right on the edge of something important to me, so please just march back in there and fight it out and figure it out w/him. I remember that you're very sensitive and I'm sorry he hurt you, but if you ride the rollercoaster you may find therapy safer than ever. Maybe it's that darn trust issue rearing up again--for me it never seems to quite go away.
Just my two cents. Tell him he owes you a massage!
antigua
Posted by thewrite1 on April 18, 2005, at 13:12:56
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I'm sorry. That's sounds absolutely horrible. *hugs*
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 13:53:13
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Sheesh, is this some kind of test? Is he connected to your university, I mean, is this part of what you have to do to become a T? Because maybe it was a class in everything a T can do wrong. :]
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 14:35:19
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Well I read and re-read and I'm just wondering if your therapist is trying to dig deeper but you're just not willing to go there.
Posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 15:00:33
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long) » gardenergirl, posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 14:35:19
I have to stop. I'm looking at my posting and afraid to open to see what I'm going to read. That cannot be good.
Posted by annierose on April 18, 2005, at 16:35:19
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by Susan47 on April 18, 2005, at 13:53:13
Sorry to read your post GG. I know you are going through a hard time as it is, so having your therapy time in flux, just makes everything else harder to deal with. As Dinah would say, one of the legs of the stool is missing.
For me, going 2x per week was extremely helpful. In November, I switched to 3x and I like that even better. It may help you to bring less week to week stuff into your sessions and more of the "feeling" stuff he was referring to. BUT ... having said that, you probably don't feel like seeing him more often when you are disappointed in how he treated you today.
I don't understand why he can't treat you if your depression is medical ... that doesn't make much sense to me. Wouldn't the therapy help resolve the underlying causes of the depression, and the meds help with the "medical" aspects of depression?
Right now, I also feel my safe place with my T is shaken. I'm very much invested into this process, so I am willing to figure this out with her. But I don't feel like going. I understand the feeling of wanting to cancel your next few sessions. Try to go and tell him what you told us. I know for me, it wasn't resolved after one session. Darn it! It's worth trying to figure out what is going on.
Thinking of you and sending you a low fat mocha w/carmel ... you know, something from Starbucks!!
A vente!! and I'll treat too. Get some coffee cake while you're at it. And, take a deep breath. Can you smell the GREEN? It's spring in the midwest. Yippee Yee Dee!!
Posted by fallsfall on April 18, 2005, at 19:21:51
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I read this a couple of hours ago and couldn't respond. I just read it again now, and I know why I couldn't respond. This sounds so much like my therapy. (But on a positive note, it has gotten much better recently - but I had to go "through" that stuff.)
I can't read your whole post and respond, but if you want to IM me, I'll talk to you about it.
Sorry - it is one of those things that is too close to home.............
(((GG)))
Posted by rockymtnhi on April 18, 2005, at 20:15:16
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Wow, it sounds like you were jabed in a few places. My CBT T would say that your T was jumping to conclusions (interrupting and finishing your sentences and making black and white assumptions (meds or tx?). I really wonder where he was coming from. This cannot be all about you.
I had a similiar experience a few sessions ago that changed how I saw my T. He said, "Are we going to beat that dead horse again?" regarding a subject we barely discussed some months previously. He apologized later but I think he really meant what he said.
I wish our Ts could tell us when they are having a bad day or just don't want to hear us talk about a particular subject. Otherwise, we spend big bucks on a yucky session.
Posted by 10derHeart on April 18, 2005, at 21:29:33
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by rockymtnhi on April 18, 2005, at 20:15:16
I'm sorry, gg. What a lousy thing to happen - ever - but right now especially. I can't help but think it must be so much worse for you sometimes, too, having to switch to the "other chair" all the time. Knowing what you do and doing what you do must make it harder to keep the hurt feelings about how he was out of the rest of your "work stuff." Not to mention the complications in relationship with hubby when your safe place is shaken. You poor thing.
T. MUST have been having a really bad day around most of that stuff. It was just too extreme. But if he's been interrupting for a while now...that's weird. With mine, I'm the one trying with all my might not to interrupt and aplogizing for doing so when I lose control (ADD thing). But from years of doing this to people (literally many times a day before ADD meds...) I know how awful it can make them feel. Silenced, shut down and disrespected. I never meant for people to feel that way - but I found out they did.
Because there were several different issues, I would love to see you print your post and have him read it. You could always edit it a little bit... But I don't suppose you'll do that. Not sure I would either. Pretty scary.
Over the long haul, I don't recall him being so insensitive, and it seems you two have done good work together. So it seems you have to hash this out - and thoroughly. <sigh> Gosh, I wish I had some brilliant words for you. When will you see him again?
Posted by damos on April 18, 2005, at 22:08:57
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
I'm so sorry that happened gg. Guess you can only hope there was some method behind it - somewhere. Don't know what I can say other than you're in my thoughts. You're a good person gg and deserve better. Guess
Posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long) » gardenergirl, posted by damos on April 18, 2005, at 22:08:57
I just wanted to thank everyone and give a quick update. I wish I had the energy to respond individually. As I re-read what I wrote, it's hard to believe how intensely it hurt at first. (um, neon sign flashing TRANSFERENCE?)It's getting a bit better. Fewer crying jags and more able to focus on what I need to do in my daily routine. I thought about calling him, but I just didn't quite know what to say. And then there's the idea in my head that he is clueless about what I am feeling, and so I just didn't want to hear that lack of awareness over the phone. I think I'd rather deal with it in person.
I don't see him until Thursday. I would definitely have called to move it up, but I spent most of today at the pdoc's, at my GP's, and at the hospital getting an Xray on my darned foot. (Officially broken, isn't that special?) And given the rest of my week, there is really no other opportunity to go in earlier. sigh
I think I will bring this post in, but more for my own memory. I'm not sure I want to give him something to read. I've never done that before. But who knows. I keep changing my mind on how I feel. I may yet still email it to him. Maybe it would be better if he were prepared and had some time to think about it first?
Grrrrrrrrr
Thanks for all your support and feedback. I do appreciate it. Wish I had more in me to respond to each of you. Perhaps later.
gg
Posted by All Done on April 19, 2005, at 1:51:33
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
(((((gg))))),
What a difficult session.
I'm having a hard time understanding his comment about not being able to help you if your depression is medical. Maybe it's because my T has told me several times that he thinks the most effective road to recovery includes both talk therapy and meds. Your T is saying it has to be one or the other? I don't get that at all. Why wouldn't you take advantage of all the options you have available to get yourself feeling better. Plus, I can only imagine there are limits to both talk therapy and meds. If you combine the two, one can pick up the slack where the other is lacking.
And transference or not, I understand you're feeling hurt by his words and actions. I'm sorry you had such a rough session, but I know you can work through it with him and turn it into something productive. It just might take a little time. So don't forget you can always lean on us.
Oh, your foot? What happened? Sorry, I must have missed something.
Take care, gg.
Giant hugs,
Laurie
Posted by daisym on April 19, 2005, at 2:22:37
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
GG-- What did you say about the moon and the stars and therapist in alignment? Thursday was not a good day...
BUT -- I went back in (after avoiding him for three days, cancelling a phone session on Friday and then leaving a message on Sunday but "accidentally" turning my phone off so I missed all of his call back attempts!) and told him I was mad at him. We had a good conversation about how he reflected on the session afterwards (wow - that surprised me) and he thought he came off really heavy-handed. He said he actually thought to himself, "where did that come from?" and realized that his anxiety with me is way up and I pushed him hard on Thursday. AND I asked if he had ever lost a patient to suicide and he said answering me honestly (yes) caused many of those old painful feelings to surface. So he pushed hard back. And I felt it. He worked as hard today as I did to reconnect. We aren't all the way there, but it was a good start.
Ok -- so this isn't supposed to be all about me. But I think your therapist is a lot like mine in this approach so perhaps as you've been thinking about all of this, so has he.
I know you'll bring it up. Something important is happening. It just feels crummy working through it, doesn't it?
I made cupcakes today. You can have one. They are still warm. Or come hide with me in a hotel room. I'll be all by my lonesome. We can play truth or dare and drink the small bottles in the mini-fridge.
(((GG))))
Posted by Shortelise on April 19, 2005, at 11:29:34
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
Hi GG,
You could write down concrete examples of what you describe. The old: when I said this, you said this, thing.
Isn't fighting it out part of the process? I always found it caused me to want to sob loud and long, really howl, so I could rarely do it except through clenced teeth. And I wrote a few letters.
What I wonder about is what is going on when we see changes in our T's. Who is changing? us or them? Both? Are they changing for a reason? Are they trying to provoke us in some way, shove us into change?
GG, I am so sorry you are depressed. I don't know what could be going on in your life that could be causing it, if it's chemical or circumstantial, if it's because of where you are in therapy, or the change of seasons, but I do know that whatever the reason, depression stinks. But depression is not a personal failure. It's important for me to remember that.
Many hugs to you, gg. And there is no need whatsoever to respond to this. Just take care of you.
ShortE
Posted by annierose on April 19, 2005, at 13:00:48
In reply to Re: Taking it all in » gardenergirl, posted by Shortelise on April 19, 2005, at 11:29:34
Shortelise - I like what you wrote:
"What I wonder about is what is going on when we see changes in our T's. Who is changing? us or them? Both? Are they changing for a reason? Are they trying to provoke us in some way, shove us into change?"
I think it's both. Maybe they are changing the way the see us as clients. And I think a little of it can be either a conscious or subconscious way to provoke "something" in us, some emotional reaction. Interesting.
Posted by Poet on April 19, 2005, at 19:43:09
In reply to Taking it all in, posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 23:59:34
Hi GG,
I am sending your T a hit on the head via cyber space. Right now he's feeling it and can't figure out what hit him.
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was having an off day, but it's a small benefit. I'm glad that you can wait until you talk to him in person. He needs to be clued in.
I'm surrounding your foot with healing vibes.
Poet
Posted by Joslynn on April 20, 2005, at 15:30:23
In reply to Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by gardenergirl on April 18, 2005, at 9:20:00
Well, transference aside, I thought that the whole theory of there being different Rx for "medical" and "psychological" depression was outdated? Isn't it true that a combination of therapy AND meds works best for most people? It sounds like he is making you choose, and that just doesn't sound like the most contempoary point of view about depression. ??
Sorry it was upsetting. Transference makes everything worse, but I do think you have a legitimate question to ask him about later.
Posted by annierose on April 21, 2005, at 18:14:17
In reply to Re: Bad session. Lost my safe place! (long), posted by Joslynn on April 20, 2005, at 15:30:23
Posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:43:26
In reply to Re:How are you doing today gg? (nm), posted by annierose on April 21, 2005, at 18:14:17
Posted by littleone on April 21, 2005, at 21:23:59
In reply to That's right. Wasn't today your session? (nm), posted by Dinah on April 21, 2005, at 20:43:26
If you're worried his office still won't feel safe, maybe you could bring some safety with you. I was going to suggest lucky undies, but somehow the ideas of undies and T's together just makes me feel gooby. :)
How 'bout wearing your fav shirt/shoes/bracelet/etc? Or maybe you have safe colours like Dinah does?
Posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
In reply to Safe place, posted by littleone on April 21, 2005, at 21:23:59
Hi again,
Saw him yesterday. Boy was it hard to sit in the waiting room. The longer I waited, and I'm sure it was only a few minutes, the more I wanted to just bolt. And on the way there, a couple of times I had this weird throat closing thing go on. Hmm, you think I'm not sure what to say? Anxious? But my throat just closed up a bit like a gag reflex or a very forceful gulp. Kind of freaky when the body misbehaves like that, but always an interesting source of information.So anyway, I sit down and look at him, and I just know he has no clue. Damn it! I know this is a fantasy, but I really wanted him to KNOW, somehow. I started by commenting on how bad I thought last session went, and then I acted out a bit. :) I asked him to tell me what his reactions to the session were or if he had thought about it at all before I told him mine. Of course he wouldn't do that. "I want to hear your reactions." Dude, I've lived with mine for a week. But he won this round. So I launched into it.
I must have said several times that I no longer felt safe. The only way I could adequately describe was that it was like I was perched on a high narrow pole with just nothing around me. No safety net, no stairs down, nothing to hold onto...and it feels like a storm is coming. I really really really don't want to fall.
He never really acknowledged saying any of the things I said hurt me. He didn't deny them, but he just never focused on his own behavior--just my reactions. He even tried humor a couple of times, and when I didn't even crack a smile, I think he realized it was pretty bad.
So his whole interpretation of things was so unsatisfying. He is psychoanalytic, and his whole take was that I somehow needed him to be "the bad guy", and somehow I caused this to happen. Can you hear part of me screaming in rage? Another part of me (the clinically trained part) is saying, hmmmmm, that's kind of interesting. I wonder if I do that with other folks. And a third part, I suppose the whole me, or perhaps the emotional me (interesting comparison..) is saying, well, that may be true, but it still sucks. I want comfort, and I want you to be a human being and admit that you have your own feelings too, that may have bled into the session.
Grrrrrr
About the medical versus psychological issue. My dog, he said he "thought long and hard before making that statement." Think a bit longer, dude. I asked him a couple of times what he meant, but I suppose I set myself up for not getting a good answer because in my question I told him it was b*llshit. He finally said he thinks that I was overemphasizing the medical. I said again that he was the one asking all the questions, and he didn't really comment on that. Grrrr
About the am I suicidal question at the end. He admitted it probably came across "flip", but he said, "I probably also sensed that you weren't." And of course if my answer were yes, we would have sat back down and dealt with it. Not sure I would have...I was out the door without confirming my next appt. Highly unusual for me. I ALWAYS confirm, even though we tend to have a standing.
So he talked more about going to twice a week and what it might entail. I finally told him I felt like he was always warning me off when he did this. Interesting, he thought I said "warding me off." And he launched into this story about another client that I don't quite get, but it had to do with him somehow never allowing the client to get into "scary stuff". And he said sometimes the T does unconsciously avoid going deeper with a client because it's "scary for the T" too. But that's why he gets paid. Grrrrrrrr.
Basically, I think he's pleased, because now we're "mixing it up." And that is what needs to happen.
I really hate this.
Oh, and I didn't talk about anything health-related. Didn't even tell him about my damn toe. Didn't update him about my pdoc appt. which was another interesting experience, although not nearly as intense.
gg
Posted by Susan47 on April 22, 2005, at 10:56:08
In reply to My session yesterday, posted by gardenergirl on April 22, 2005, at 10:32:11
Good for you, GG, for sticking it through and bringing up what bothered you. It's really bad when you don't get what you need in the way of an explanation. I tried for a long time to get my therapist to be honest with me, to make me see him as a person, but he refused .. somewhat like yours. I hope this man doesn't drive you crazy. I'm glad you're learning how it feels on this side of the fence, though. Ask him if he knows how it feels.
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