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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by kindgirl on August 3, 2004, at 21:00:20
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
I worry about you Jadah. I just see this as a no win situation for you and that makes me sad. It is easy for an outsider to say "just end it" but it didn't "just start" so ending it is going to be tricky, and you are right, there is always the chance that he says one day, "I can't do this anymore," and you WILL be heartbroken. I am glad you are preparing yourself for that.
The thing that makes me so sad is the fact that you said he IS a good therapist and you have built this trust over the years, and you are right, starting over with someone new will be a lot of work, and you probably don't or won't have the energy for that. Perhaps you could look for someone who specializes in this area (are there such people?)...someone that has been a therapist for many years...
I don't think there is any way you CAN'T or WON'T feel like you are betraying him in some way. It is just going to feel that way because you interpret going to another therapist as a secret lover as well or something.
I don't know about you, Jadah, but one thing I am discovering for the first time in my life is to fight for me. For myself. Though I still struggle big time with self esteem, my therapist tells me every time I come that it is "good self care" and I am taking care of the wounded parts of me in taking her to therapy. I would ask you to think about how you can best take care of you. You are the main focus...not how he will react or how he will feel...this is why we go to therapy!!!! That is what makes your situation so sticky. You are in therapy to learn past history and I think you said that you have a past of abuse by men...and here is a man you trust and you are worried about him...always worried about him. What about you? Isn't Jadah worth taking care of? You are worth it, Jadah.
I back you 100 percent in whatever you do...just the little kid/wounded parts of me want you to be careful and look out for yourself. I don't want you getting devastated in all of this. It is good to keep coming here and venting, asking...just keep coming and keep writing. Even if something happens and you don't think you can go on...please let us know. You have a place where you belong here. No matter what.
Hugs,
KG
Posted by JenStar on August 4, 2004, at 1:54:51
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Jadah -
You said "we have worked together 5yrs. now and he hasnt failed me yet"
When I read your post, sadly, all I see *is* failure on his part: Failure to treat you with proper respect, failure to treat his wife & family with respect, failure to honor the oaths and legalities by which he is supposedly bound, and failure to encourage real growth in you.
If you were reading a case study about a beautiful, talented, empathetic woman who was in your situation with a therapist...what would you think? Would you think that this woman had made the best decision for herself and her future and her happiness? After 5 years of this, would you truly consider that this woman had made the right emotional and spiritual progress? Wouldn't you want this woman to find a man who could commit fully to her and make her a never-ending part of his life?
You deserve better. I hope you make a choice that brings the 'better' people in life to you.
JenStar
JenStar
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
You mentioned that you are afraid that, if you went to a new therapist, you would become enmeshed in strong transference feelings once again, and wouldn't be able to "get past" them so as to do good work. In my experience, the strong feelings themselves are the "gold coin" of therapy. You would want to work *with* them, rather than consider them obstacles. You have mentioned other, natural feelings that you have: not wanting to betray your T. by moving to another, not wanting to give up the relationship itself, which has been very powerful and fulfiling for you in many ways.
But think what lies ahead. The relationship is going to end, even though it is very hard for either of you to do that. Here's one possible scenario: YOU end it, letting him know that it's the hardest thing you've ever done, that you found fulfilment and grew sexually, and as a person, during it. You could say that, as wonderful as it has been in so many ways, you want to grow into a healthy woman who will have her own fulfilling relationship in her own life, outside of therapy. If you wait for him to end it, you will feel awful, and may not be able to maintain the gains you have made in therapy so far. I think you will feel victimized and then thrown aside.
It was his professional responsibility to have never let this happen, but to have helped you grow through verbal-only interactions about your intense feelings for him. Hard as it will be, wouldn't it be better for your own well-being and health to be the one who finds the strength to end it? You have a lot of support available to you- another therapist, all of us here at Babble, TELL (the web organization I mentioned, which is reportedly tremendously supportive). No-one here wants to see you get rejected and abandonned, but, if you don't do something yourself, I am afraid that is what will happen. Why not bite the bullet and put an end to it yourself? I feel very confident that you'll be glad you did in the long run. We are all here for you, thinking of you, not at all judgemental, and we can empathize fully; many of us have said that, if our therapists did not maintain appropriate boundaries, we would have done what you did. I feel pretty sure I would have, when my feelings were running at their highest.
Posted by starlight on August 4, 2004, at 14:11:16
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Jadah,
You can see someone else without telling your current Pdoc. And you can discuss these issues without revealing his name. I think if you're expecting that it will come crashing down at some point, you should be prepared by having some sort of support mechanism and by feeling good about yourself and your choices. I think that feeling good about your choices is paramount. The decision to engage in this relationship was made by both of you, so I believe, despite what others say, that you can turn this into a positive healing experience. But you also have got to work on feeling confident that you can emerge from this (if it changes) a stronger, more experienced, more compassionate and understanding human being. You must be non judgemental towards yourself and him, so that you can avoid any guilt feelings that may arise. This is paramount.Believe in yourself and your ability to emerge victorious and be agressive in seeking some support, be it a good friend, a therapist - someone. Just in case.
I was a severe bulimic during my late teens and early twenties. We're talking severe - basically at times, going from place to place, eating and vomiting. It was pretty uncontrollable and I didn't think I'd ever be free from the compulsion to do that. It was so bad that I would usually head for the nearest all you can eat restaurant right after leaving my therapy session.
Then I embarked on a self improvement journey. I started taking classes at my community college and making straight A's, I started painting and studying classical voice. I started working out and in general feeling stronger and better about who I was as a person. Then one night, I had a dream, where my ex fiance walked into the bathroom and caught me vomiting and he looked at me and said "starlight, you've really got to stop this." And the next morning I woke up and the urge to do it was gone. Gone!!! And it's been gone ever since. But I firmly believe that the reason I was able to break through was because I felt better about myself as a person.
So, feel strong in who you are without him, try to eliminate your dependency on him. I know it will be hard, but it will help you in the long run.
starlight
Posted by pinkeye on August 5, 2004, at 13:43:43
In reply to Re:starlight, posted by Jadah on August 3, 2004, at 19:25:31
Hi Jadah,
Something else occurred to me. Actually your relationship with your current T has definitely helped you. You have said that yourself. So far so good. Let us not try to judge him. As far as you are concerned, it has helped you immensely and that is all that matters for us.
So where do we go from here? Now you are left feeling very insecure in the relationship. I don't know if you can muster enough courage and srength to call this relationship off. And I suspect that you don't have enough courage to go to another therapist now, since you think it will offend your current T and might end the relationship prematurely.So, why don't you instead focus of building a better self esteem now? You can continue your relationship with your T for now. And side by side, build a better healthy relationship with yourself. If you can't get another T, work on it yourself. Do something positive for yourself, like diverting your mind to other areas where you will feel good about yourself. Slowly slowly, you will have more courage to either end the relationshp or atleast escape without being completely devastated when the relationship ends.
Also it looks as if our T's are the only ones who will understand us, nurture us and loves us. But it is not so. If you look around, you will find plenty of men who are as good, as honest and as caring as your T. Life is a mirror that reflects our own assumptions about ourselves. If you become a self reliant person, you will definitely attract more men who are willing to be with you. I read a message yesterday, which said, Don't try to get good men, instead be a person where good men come to you.
And remember, you deserve someone who is fully committed to you, who can share his life fully with you. Who will be there by your side through your ups and downs, day and night. Who will be happy to have you as his wife, as you would be happy to have him as your husband.
Pinkeye.
Posted by Jai Narayan on August 5, 2004, at 17:07:29
In reply to Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
that sounds like really good advice. I like how you described the 'Gold Coin' of therapy. I will take that with me. Thank you.
Posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
In reply to Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on August 4, 2004, at 7:13:53
I ended it on Saturday. Niether of us were happy about it but I knew it was coming soon. He felt so guilty about what he was doing to the marriage. For now, I have been having phone sessions with him, as it is too hard and risky for me to see him. To be together can easily mean a slip and a viscious on again off again cycle. Im very depressed. Dont know what Im going to do. Right now dont care much about anything. The rest of my life is in shambles to begin with (it seems) without him fully Im lost. Sighhhh.... I hope people have learned from my experience. Now that this affair is over, I can only wish that I am not pregnant with his child. Although, that might not necessarily be a bad thing, I already told him I would raise it myself if he chose not to be involved. He said that would bother him, he couldnt allow that. Who knows. Im sure it will work out. I'll be back eventually, I really need you all. Take care. Im movin' on.
Jadah
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 23:21:09
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
That showed so much courage- it must have been the hardest thing you have ever have had to do. You know you have a tremendous amount of support from everyone here, but I hope you can find a new and wonderful therapist for yourself. Since you are having phone sessions with him, still, you have time to interview several to see who *feels* the best. I really think that's worth doing- I did it, and of the four I saw, the one I'm with now just seemed right the moment I walked into his office. You do want to be a bit choosy, as you will be feeling so much loss, and a powerful mixture of good and bad feelings about what has occurred- you do need someone- male or female- who can deal with that situation with sophistication and empathy- as well as the issues which originally brought you to therapy.
Thank you for letting us know what you did; many of us have had you in mind, and were concerned not to see you posting. I just have to say it once more: what you did is the ultimate in courage and strength. I think it's so healthy that YOU did it, rather than waiting for him- that might have meant more lost years when you didn't progress towards finding a loving man just for you. Please post when you feel like it, and let us know how things are going. Therapy is so often intensely painful, but what he allowed to happen adds so many other intense feelings- loneliness, anger, regret for having to give up the wonderful parts of that relationship, doubt about the future, etc. I feel confident that a really good therapist whose boundaries you can trust will help tremendously in lessening the pain you must be feeling now. I hope you will keep us informed.
Posted by Pfinstegg on August 22, 2004, at 23:24:52
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 1:05:22
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
Jadah, if we can help you we will. Please keep in touch, don't stop posting if it helps you. What you're going through is probably horrible. For your sake honey, I hope you're not pregnant because it's so hard to be hurt by the father of your child. I spent eight years or so talking to a ghost after he deserted us. Please be okay.
How did you end it?
Posted by kindgirl on August 23, 2004, at 9:13:23
In reply to You can do this and be okay...., posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 1:05:22
Jadah,
You are so courageous, and so brave, and good for you. You probably won't do anything harder in your life. When my affair ended (he dumped me) I was devastated. I wish I was the one who ended it...so to hear that you did makes me smile today.I think you knew there was no easy way out of this....it was getting messy being in the relationship and it was going to be messy getting out. It is all a huge mess right now. I am so sorry. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place in a lot of ways.
But I think you standing up for yourself and realizing that no matter how "good" this felt you have decided to keep trying for something better...something healthy...something good for Jadah. There is true love out there for you, Jadah. You sound like such a warm and caring person and I know you will find love again when you are ready. Right now I imagine you just want to bury your head under the covers. That's okay too.
I am praying for you today, if that is okay. Keep updating here because I know all of us worry about you and want to help you in any way we can. (((((((((((jadah))))))))))
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:19:41
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
...is really wonderful Jadah. Would you be willing to take it as an option?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 22:45:23
In reply to Re: Babblemail, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:19:41
Am I scaring Jadah away? I can be quiet if you want me to, I will.
Posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
In reply to Re: You can do this and be okay...., posted by kindgirl on August 23, 2004, at 9:13:23
I hate him, I love him..... I hurt. There is a whole in my heart and an even bigger one in the pit of my stomach. I cant cry anymore, I just want to curl up in a ball for a while and disapear. I need you guys. Im falling apart, my friends are worried about me and are angry because I am not being honest about what is really going on with me. Im reaching for anything at this point. I just dont want to feel. I hate him.....I love him. It is truley over. Be back later....
Jadah
Posted by Susan47 on August 29, 2004, at 22:14:56
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
Oh Jadah we're here.
Posted by Susan47 on August 29, 2004, at 22:24:30
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
Jadah I really really feel for you. I know when I'm in that space you're in it feels like the end of the world to me.
Loving, hating, re-living moments over and over again. Almost like, trying to decide if what I did was the right thing. What if I'd done it differently, what if I'd behaved this or that way. Issues like, was he worth it, and maybe he's made an idiot out of me all this time, stuff like that all weigh so heavily on my mind.
What does it feel like for you?
Posted by gardenergirl on August 29, 2004, at 23:10:22
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Susan47 on August 29, 2004, at 22:24:30
I'm so sorry Jadah. You have quite a complex relationship with your T. I can't imagine what you are going through right now. I wish I could take the hurt away. I hope you find insight and healing within.
Be good to yourself.
gg
Posted by Starlight on August 31, 2004, at 14:12:03
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
Hi Jadah,
Curl up in a ball and do what you need to do to feel better. Get some ice cream and when you've got the strength go for a walk and appreciate yourself for the courage it took for you to make that move. And it was great for you to end it rather than him, which would have hurt even more. And think about this - he's the one who has been dependent on you, he's the one who has been gaining from your relationship, you're the one who has been wronged, but in the end, you've been his therapist. He's cultivated your dependency by always being there for you, but he's the one who was getting therapy, he was making himself feel better about what he's done by taking 'care' of you, but you're the teacher here. Not the other way around.Can you recognize how much strength and power that you had to muster in order to do this - you're a powerful creature! Respect and honor that. You made the honorable choice.
Now - here's the most important part, DO NOT JUDGE YOURSELF OR THE SITUATION! JUST OBSERVE IT! There's a reason why it happened, so back away from it and try to just observe it without judgement and see it more clearly.
And then, pamper yourself. Take a hot bath, light some candles and honor yourself for exercising your strength and being the bigger person in this situation.
Sometimes it's hard to be the bigger person and take responsibility for your decision because we can get caught up in second guessing. But you're taking better care of your mental health by doing so.
All the best,
starlight
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 20:26:01
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad, posted by Jadah on August 29, 2004, at 17:34:56
Hi Jadah..I know it's hurting beyond belief. I still think it's so great you found the strength to do it. Are you able to interview other therapists now? I think that would be such a good first step in getting to a place where you are suffering less. I hope you keep talking to us, even when you feel so bad.
Posted by starlight on September 5, 2004, at 2:07:33
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad » Jadah, posted by Pfinstegg on September 1, 2004, at 20:26:01
Hey Jadah,
Just thinking about you and hope that you're doing okay. I also hope that you touch base with us soon.
starlight
Posted by Susan47 on September 5, 2004, at 9:33:10
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad - Jadah, posted by starlight on September 5, 2004, at 2:07:33
I'm with Starlight. (((Jadah)))
Posted by Jadah on September 15, 2004, at 16:59:56
In reply to Re: Im hurting so bad - Jadah, posted by starlight on September 5, 2004, at 2:07:33
Hi everyone, I hope you all are doing well. I know its been awhile. Where do I start? Im still very hurt but Im moving into alot of anger. I feel used and thrown away at my own expense. I feel things that I swore I wouldnt because "he was different".... like I wonder if he'll do it again, he took advantage of me abd of my feelings and vulnerabilty. I lost, he didnt because he went back to his family, I went back to the feelings. I cant believe that he is scum enough to cheat on his wife (and kids) as long as he did and walked away with no scratches. This is why I wonder if he will do it again, he had no consequences, I made it easy for him. Im not out to get him in trouble, I played my part too. I feel so stupid that I allowed all this to go on. The next person wont. I do still love him and believes that he cares about me very much, however I also know that things are over. I never thought I would think all of this. I hate him right now, more days than none. He says he is worried about me, and doesnt like the fact that I wont process my feelings about this so we can talk about it. Im afraid I'll lose it if I did, Im so angry. He still says that he loves me. Its funny, I see myself going through all the stages of greif and loss...(denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance).. I hope I can get to the end in one piece. The last thing I want right now is a relationship, even though I am lonely. I think about his wife and kids a lot and him going about his life. I just want mine back. You guys were right in all that you've said. I was just too blind to recognize it at the time. Dont let this happen to you. LOVE HURTS...I WILL SURVIVE. Right now kind of half-heartedly looking for a new therapist. In the mean time, believe it or not, I am still seeing him for therapy. Crazy, I know. One step at a time. Miss you guys! As always, thanks for the support. Talk to you soon.
Jadah
Posted by Jadah on September 15, 2004, at 18:41:13
In reply to Re: Pfinstegg, posted by Jadah on August 22, 2004, at 20:48:23
9-15-04
Dear ,
I’m not even sure where to begin, I have so many mixed feelings. Many of them I never thought I would feel. You commented once that one day I would resent you for crossing the line, I said “no way”. I do. This is certainly an I hate you don’t leave me time. I want to thank you for showing me what love could be like, but at the same time I am severely angry that you shared it and then took it away. My regrets? Mainly that there are still so many things that I did not get to do, small but risky things that were intimate and therefore scary to me, things that I think I would only feel comfortable being vulnerable and taking the risk with you. I do wonder what it would be like to have fucked you and shown you everything I have learned (as opposed to always making love), I know that wasnt the point of our being together. I miss you touching me, kissing me, holding me, being inside of me….the very things that, in some ways, I somehow feel taken advantage of. Right now, everything that I felt and learned from our being together is clouded with anger. You loved and left me….. Like so many others in my life. Physically, you are still present, that has always hurt. I still have that big, empty whole in my stomach, the one that only you could fill (for now). More conflicting and surprising thoughts…. How could you have sex with me and then go home to your wife and have sex with her/ or vice versa. How could you look at us in the eye and say loving and compassionate words? Did you tell us both the same things? Was I so desperate and needy that I fell for it? I told you I would never hurt you, something you cant say. I told you that I am not out to get you in trouble in any way. I stick to my word. Since the beginning I have made this affair nothing but easy for you, even at my expense. Everything has always been about you. I let you have your cake and eat it too. I gave you a free ticket in and out so that you could go about your merry ways uninterrupted. You’ve lost nothing. With no consequences, I fear that in the future you will compromise your boundaries with someone else. Not everyone will be as naïve and understanding as myself. It bothers me to think that your life has not been turned upside down, that you still go home at night to your family and live as you please. I often wonder how solid your marital foundation is. You don’t seem to be home a lot, which is none of my business. These are some of the reasons though, that I felt you could get comfortable with the situation, and that it could have continued. I do not dispute the idea that you care about me and maybe even love me. You could never feel for me as deeply as I feel and love you, we’ve both always known that. I wonder if you have other patients that you have said the same thing to. I know that you are human and have wants and desires like everyone else. God, I want you inside of me, holding me, kissing…… I will deal with all of my feelings all the while trying to be mature enough to keep seeing you on a therapeutic level. You are the only one that knows me inside and out, who comforts me with kind words in a soothing tone, who sits and holds me and allows me to cry, free from consequences or guilt. You give me what I need in that realm and it is in this sense that I think you are irreplaceable as my therapist. Five years is a long time, a lot of work. There is so much more that I can say, my mind is so disorganized right now. Giving you this much is more than I intended, as I did not want to give you the satisfaction of knowing just exactly how powerful you can be in my life…. Big secret…. I have no choice but to get over you. I look at you as being a “man”, and in that sense, your actions cannot be faulted. This is what men do…. isn’t it? Our relationship will be different for awhile while I heal, but I do believe that ours is strong enough to overcome anything. I do not feel, at this point, that I wish to hear any responses or disputes that you may have at this time, or any time, as I do not feel as though I am at a place where I would believe any rebuttal. I am naïve, but I’m not stupid. See you soon.
I hate you, don’t leave me.
J
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2004, at 18:53:21
In reply to Re: letter to my T re: our affair/ discretion, posted by Jadah on September 15, 2004, at 18:41:13
So honest, and so thoughtful and articulate. So glad you are moving through the grieving stages; it sounds as though you are really in touch with your feelings (definitely a sign of health!), perhaps to a greater extent than he is. I have such confidence that you will find a healthy way out. You'll take some very precious things with you, but some extraordinary losses, too- something it was his resposibility to protect you from. I guess a huge step is moving on to another therapist, with whom you can really process the entire experience- but, as you say, one thing at a time.
Thanks for keeping us informed- it means a lot to -well,me!
Posted by pinkeye on September 15, 2004, at 19:26:39
In reply to Re: letter to my T re: our affair/ discretion, posted by Jadah on September 15, 2004, at 18:41:13
Hi Jadah,
We all knew it was coming to this, didn't we. I am so sorry you are hurting so much now.
But ass much as you feel angry towards this man, try to remember that you also went into the relationship fully knowing the consequences? And you did get the pleasure too. Maybe acknowleding that you did get lot out of him would ease your anger. Finally he has left you, but atleast you got a good 5 years. Maybe you can try to be happy about that and take it with you and go and find someone new now? Don't think you wasted 5 years in your life. You have evolved, grown, had some fun with him albeit some difficulties. So can you try looking at that perspective? It might help ease the anger and the betrayal that you feel.
Pinkeye
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