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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 55 to 79 of 137. Go back in thread:
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 18:50:12
In reply to Re: I can't see any reason you should be :) » spoc, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 15:52:13
> I think Dr. Bob was saying he knew it was a volatile issue, and he appreciated that we were keeping the civility rules in mind....>
(I noticed that the post I was worried about may not be visible from the main thread...sometimes!? It's there in one browser, but is kind of hidden in another...)
But anyway, you're surely right that Dr. Bob meant "Thanks for being civil to each other," not "Thanks in advance for keeping it vanilla at all times." Hey, does this mean that I just had some TRANSFERENCE with Dr. Bob? Maybe when I read his post he felt representative to me of the kind, normal folk I'm afraid I've let down and disappointed! So then it's an overactive guilt response! Thanks Dr. Bob, send me your bill! :-)
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 19:01:55
In reply to Re: I can't see any reason you should be :) » Dinah, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 18:50:12
A fair number of us have experienced transference with Dr. Bob - the ultimate blank slate.
I generally see him as a funny, clever, occasionally noncomprehending and often incomprehensible, but overall benevolent authority figure who really does care about us, although he may not be really skillful at showing it.
I wonder if that says more about him or about me?
(I think my therapist thinks "me")
Oooh. Dr. Bob as the Psychobabble Rorschach test?
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:08:43
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Fallen4myT, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 8:11:39
Thank you Spoc that was very nice of you to say and lol in person you would be shocked at how much I can and DO say..I tend to digress a lot :) A happy medium would be nice :) Anyhow I think you're very nice and again thanks
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:11:35
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 14:09:38
Tancred62, Spring is good :) I can whip the new spring garb out :) lol...Happy Spring to you too and thanks!
> Dinah. I was indeed referring to your NASA analogy, but probably should have chosen better words than "getting on one's nerves." I'll be more careful next time. I know what you meant, and I too don't want to be a "shock jock." I only want to express some concerns I have regarding the emotional closeness, and for some, distance, between therapist and patient. I've learned more about transference on this one string than I have in a lifetime.
>
> Whatever we do, let's all try to have a good weekend. And remember, the vernal equinox is tomorrow. Happy Spring, everyone.
>
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:13:33
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » spoc, posted by Pfinstegg on March 18, 2004, at 16:01:11
P, you my friend are most wise and well dressed :P
> I do go to a psychoanalyst- but a contemporary "relational" one. We explore all the feelings which come up between us- and understanding and working with them is the most important thing we do. The contemporary thinking is that out pre-conscious and unconscious feelings are laid down in early life in our right hemispheres by the relationships we had then. So- here's where the "relational" part comes in - the patient and therapist need to allow their right hemispheres to interact. In this way, we find out how we truly felt as children, but we have an opportunity to allow that part of the brain to develop new and healthier ways of interacting with other people. Recent research has actually shown that people with abuse and/or neglect in their childhoolds have smaller right hemispheres, with many fewer neurons connecting to the fear centers in the limbic system- they are much less able to use their right cortexes to calm down their tendencies to react to small stressors with extreme fear, rage, dissociation or hopelessness. But, this research has also shown that vital parts of the right frontal cortex are "plastic:- capable of growing throughout life. Modern therapists utilize this knowledge to help patients grow through the relationships they develop with their therapists. The relationship aspect has become so central that the word "transference" really doesn't begin to describe the new thinking about this.The clothes thing with Fallen was just plain fun, and had to do with doing things in a new, happier way. But we are also dealing with immensely painful things and trying to do our best to grow beyond them. For one person, having intensely loving and erotic feelings may be central to their growth. For another, something else might be more important- such as developing basic trust in another human being. For a lot of us, all these things are included at different times. You can be sure we are not wasting our time on frivolities! Like you, and everyone else, we want to live the fullest, richest lives we can.
>
> As to the gender of a therapist, I';d say - choose the one you think would mean the most to you. Women (sadly the majority on Psychobabble) have had very meaningful and successful experiences with both sexes, and men are surely the same.
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:33:24
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » spoc, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:08:43
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:59:15
In reply to Re: Join the club. » spoc, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 19:01:55
> A fair number of us have experienced transference with Dr. Bob - the ultimate blank slate. > > I generally see him as a funny, clever, occasionally noncomprehending and often incomprehensible, but overall benevolent authority figure who really does care about us, although he may not be really skillful at showing it.> I wonder if that says more about him or about me? >
I haven't been reading here long enough to encounter clues beyond the "civil/not civil" calls. But wow! After reading your hunches and comparing them to mine, which are based on no knowledge of him beyond the establishment of this board, I see that I really MUST idealize certain *types* of people (I KNOW I don't idealize in general by any means). I was sitting here assuming he had all the answers and could read between the lines of every misplaced punctuation mark on the entire board with one brain hemisphere tied behind his back. And that y'all have surely helped him achieve that level of comprehension of course!!!
So, the ultimate blank slate, at least here. You're right! And I won't even take it personally coming from a website, which couldn't crack a smile if it wanted to! Even if I was wearing a pink camisole!! : )
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:03:10
In reply to Re: Join the club. » Dinah, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:59:15
MEGA LOLING SPOC too cute and well worded..Good sense of humor I like it and you.
>> I was sitting here assuming he had all the answers and could read between the lines of every misplaced punctuation mark on the entire board with one brain hemisphere tied behind his back. And that y'all have surely helped him achieve that level of comprehension of course!!! >>>
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 19, 2004, at 20:31:28
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Pfinstegg, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:13:33
Awww...thank you, F. It's a pleasure to receive such a nice compliment from such a well-dressed (read sexy, in the best sense) and big-hearted fellow therapee. Happy Spring Equinox to you also! P
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:34:52
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Fallen4myT, posted by Pfinstegg on March 19, 2004, at 20:31:28
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 21:30:07
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 9:47:28
Thank you for responding to my post, and I really appreciate your, I guess, dissenting opinion. There is obviously not a simple answer, and it is good to consider both sides. I am not entirely comfortable, either, with the concept of transference. I am definitely not comfortable in discussing my feelings with him.
I also understand the sort of catch-22 you see. While I am not comfortable about having these feelings about him, I also know that I probably would have stopped going after I finished my mandatory counseling if I not for my strong attachment to him. All the other psychologists and psychiatrists I've been to have been female (with the exception of one I saw only once for some testing), and I did not like them, I did not like the counseling, and I went only because I was forced to. I did not feel comfortable with them, and I did not want to be open with them. I guess part of my motivation in even trying is because I like (love?) my psychologist and I want to make him "happy" or... whatever. I know that if I weren't seeing him, I would just quit altogether. I don't know whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 22:25:53
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » lonelygirl, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 9:48:21
Thank you so much for replying :)
> I don't think that IS how combination treatment (half talk and half meds) should go! Sounds like you were diverted from the talking part prematurely and put only into a "med management" maintenance thing. I wouldn't get disillusioned from how it went down, maybe as a "youth" decisions are made for us that aren't right.
==========
Well, I wasn't exactly cooperative with the "talk" part of it. Actually, I wasn't cooperative with the meds part, either -- but it is easier to pretend I am than fight about it. I guess I am less concerned about that than about the fact that everyone seems to think that they are going to throw pills at me for the rest of my life and somehow that will (and already does) make everything ok. It really did make me disillusioned about everything, because I determined that nobody really listened/understood/cared about what my real problems were, and didn't have any real answers to offer me. I have continued to have this perception of all psychologists and psychiatrists, up to and including my mandatory counseling at school. Despite my initial resistance, though, this guy (my current psychologist) actually seemed like he "got" it, and what he said actually seemed to make sense.
>You mentioned in your other post that this pdoc and your current psychotherapist don't know about each other. I'm not sure how -- if ever -- this works, but maybe you could request for them to "pair" for you. OR -- since this pdoc is irrelevant to you and you don't take the meds, maybe you could just go with whoever the campus doc would use, if you are interested in trying meds again....
==========
Well, for starters, I am not interested in trying meds again. If I were, my current psychiatrist is fine. I have the meds and I could take them right now if I wanted (but I don't). Also, there are even more complications with this situation that would make it pretty unlikely for a "pairing" to work. First of all, I attend school in a different state from where my parents live. The psychiatrist is where my parents live, and paid for by their insurance (as are the meds). I go in to get refill prescriptions when I go home for school breaks.The psychologist is at my school's health center (in a different state from the psychiatrist). Plus, my parents don't even know that I am going. They don't even know anything about how I got in trouble and was forced to go. I'm pretty sure they would never in their wildest dreams imagine me going voluntarily.
But this brings up another question... Should I tell the psychologist about the situation with the psychiatrist? I have not told him I am supposed to be on meds, or that I ever was (though he does know that I have been to other psychologists and not had good experiences). I will definitely not tell the psychiatrist about the psychologist (if she even cared anyway), but I am not sure if I should tell the psychologist. I don't know what he would think of that. Unfortunately, I think the more I tell him, the crazier he realizes I am. Might he get mad at me, either for not taking the meds or for lying about it? (I can't remember if I technically lied, because if the question is whether I am TAKING any medication, the truthful answer is no, but I can't remember if there were further questions about that.)
>Maybe this is an opportunity for you to work through what has felt like rejection from men. For instance if initial idealization has anything to do with it, maybe you'll see why you "pick" who you do and why it ends up hurting. (Armchair logic, watch out!)
==========
Wellllll... I don't really think it is as complicated as all that. The bottom line is that I am overweight and unattractive, and no matter who I "pick," he doesn't like me. I don't think it's about picking the wrong guys -- there just are no "right" guys.
>Maybe there is a common life theme in there you really should work through, but perhaps not first, with someone inexperienced? Could you bring yourself to, after getting another opinion, ask the campus doc flat out if for your own sake maybe you should switch?
==========
Although he just recently got his Ph.D., he is not that inexperienced. He counseled at the health center (under the supervision of a licensed counselor) for more than a year before he was licensed, and maybe even somewhere else before that.So... Does he probably know that I "love" him? I mean, he is young (somewhere around 30, give or take a couple years), intelligent, and nice. I can't possibly be the first one to feel this way about him. I assume, then, that there is a reason he is basically ignoring the whole issue.
>But as if everything would play out on cue in accordance with the textbook model of transference in general, my pdoc forced situations in order to believe he was feeling to me like all the key problematic figures in my life (whom he identified and overgeneralized about based on two initial sessions).
==========
OVERRULED, LOL! That would really piss me off :)This kind of reminds me of something else he said to me. He was talking about "projections." Is that considered related to transference? I asked him why everyone is so scared of me, and he said that maybe it is because I am so reserved that people don't know very much about me, so they "fill in the blanks" by "projecting" other ideas onto me -- for example, when they find out that I got in a verbal argument with another girl (which was what got me sent to counseling in the first place), they think of me as someone who is "always" arguing with other people, etc.
THEN, he started talking about how he experiences people "projecting" feelings onto him. He said that sometimes, when people get sent to him as I was (i.e., against their will), they view him as "the man," and he personifies to them the strong arm of the law coming down on them, so they get mad at him even though he has done nothing bad to them. He also said that sometimes, people have unreasonable expectations of him being able to wave his magic wand and instantly "cure" them, and when he can't do that, they get mad and "project" the blame for their original problems onto him. Something like that...
Geez, there I go rambling on and on again. :(
Posted by spoc on March 20, 2004, at 7:22:02
In reply to Re: Join the club. » spoc, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:03:10
> MEGA LOLING SPOC too cute and well worded..Good sense of humor I like it and you.>
SEEE???? The proof that you are actually one of *THE* smartest and most perceptive people on this whole board keeps rolling in!!! ;- )
And P.S., between you and me, I'm really hot and well dressed too! ;- ) ;- )
Posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » Tancred62, posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 21:30:07
Well, at least it is a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. I've been single for a long time now, and sometimes I really miss being close to a woman, not just sexually, but in the myriad of ways I could be. My pdoc (?)is a man, which is of no concern to me, because our conversations are strictly about medication. This may sound silly, but I really like women, especially funny, talkative women. I ran into a couple of women from work last night as I was coming out of the grocery store. We just sat down at the cheap outdoor furniture display near the entrance and talked for about a half hour. Just talked and talked and laughed. We're all in our 40s (me 41)and we've all got our relationship stories. But essentially I'm conflicted about relationships. Whenever I see couples shopping together in stores I look at them and study their movements and behavior and I always tend to see them as pathetic souls, needy and trapped by cultural and/or biological imperatives. I say "Thank God I'm not part of a couple. How disgusting." It's like people's personalities start to die when they become a pair. I see couples that look ultimately bored out of their minds. But if I see a woman alone in the same store I will say "I wonder what it would be like to be with her." I know I'm supposed to be babbling about medication, and I've used that word twice in this post so Dr. Bob won't refer me to some other board, but I'm really talking about relationships in general. I'm in the public library now, and I just love the fact that I don't have to think about the plans or schedules of another person. "What do you want to do tonight, dear?" God I'm selfish. But then again I can be lonelyman, too. But part of me likes being lonely, observing all the "other" people pretending to be "normal" and happy. You know, those "shiny happy people holding hands" that REM sung about. It's always catch 22, lonelygirl. I can't tell if being in a commited relationship or marriage means freedom or imprisonment. Probably both. I have to say, however, that my meds have taken away the totally negative, downright dark and sinister perspective I had, say 3 months ago. And it took a long time to get to this more tolerable place. I think I'll eat sushi for lunch at the supermarket; alone. I like doing that. It's MY routine.
Later, folks.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 20, 2004, at 11:51:10
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
Once again, I identify so much with what you said here about the relationships (well, except the part about liking women). Even though I am always wishing I had a relationship, I always think about things like that -- how much I would hate to have to worry about someone else's schedules, routines, wants, and needs. Then I feel selfish for thinking that way. A major difference between you and me, though, is that I have never been in a relationship (I have never even been on a date), so I can only speculate about these things.
Anyway, in an attempt to remain "on topic," something that is hard for me in my "relationship" with my psychologist is that I like him so much that I feel like I wouldn't mind so much to go along with his routines and needs. I guess that makes it more difficult to convince myself that I don't *really* want a relationship. Of course, even this is only in theory; perhaps if reality were suspended and I did have an actual relationship with him, I would tire of it anyway. I guess I'll never know.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 20, 2004, at 16:05:16
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
> Well, at least it is a relationship with someone of the opposite sex.
I just feel the need to point out that transference can also happen between same sex T's and clients.
Regards,
gg
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 20, 2004, at 21:15:22
In reply to Re: Join the club. » Fallen4myT, posted by spoc on March 20, 2004, at 7:22:02
ROTFFLMAO....Your very cute and funny..I like that but I would also like if you shared your clothes too :D think if we all swapped clothes on this site...man no more bills just dry clean and or wash and return. We could all wear different outfits for years and never repeat :P
>
> SEEE???? The proof that you are actually one of *THE* smartest and most perceptive people on this whole board keeps rolling in!!! ;- )
>
> And P.S., between you and me, I'm really hot and well dressed too! ;- ) ;- )
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 20, 2004, at 21:23:03
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » Tancred62, posted by lonelygirl on March 20, 2004, at 11:51:10
Hahahaha Lonelygirl I too have wondered IF I got my T how long till I bored of him :) He does have crappy taste in music and works a lot :P Still I would give it a whirl..I have had other relationships crash and burn so why not this one too lol
> Once again, I identify so much with what you said here about the relationships (well, except the part about liking women). Even though I am always wishing I had a relationship, I always think about things like that -- how much I would hate to have to worry about someone else's schedules, routines, wants, and needs. Then I feel selfish for thinking that way. A major difference between you and me, though, is that I have never been in a relationship (I have never even been on a date), so I can only speculate about these things.
>
> Anyway, in an attempt to remain "on topic," something that is hard for me in my "relationship" with my psychologist is that I like him so much that I feel like I wouldn't mind so much to go along with his routines and needs. I guess that makes it more difficult to convince myself that I don't *really* want a relationship. Of course, even this is only in theory; perhaps if reality were suspended and I did have an actual relationship with him, I would tire of it anyway. I guess I'll never know.
Posted by spoc on March 21, 2004, at 2:44:23
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » spoc, posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 22:25:53
Ahhh, so easy to be objective about other people's stuff, right? So don't quote me to myself later! ;- )
=========
> Well, I wasn't exactly cooperative with the "talk" part of it. Actually, I wasn't cooperative with the meds part, either -- but it is easier to pretend I am than fight about it. I guess I am less concerned about that than about the fact that everyone seems to think that they are going to throw pills at me for the rest of my life and somehow that will (and already does) make everything ok. It really did make me disillusioned about everything, because I determined that nobody really listened/understood/cared about what my real problems were, and didn't have any real answers to offer me. I have continued to have this perception of all psychologists and psychiatrists, up to and including my mandatory counseling at school. Despite my initial resistance, though, this guy (my current psychologist) actually seemed like he "got" it, and what he said actually seemed to make sense .>
========Maybe getting anything out of this stuff is like finally succeeding at quitting smoking or losing weight: your “time just comes??” Have you ever really felt like it was the right time for *you* yet, or has it all felt like something you had to do for your parents or some “authority?” You're giving your current doc more to work with than you have anyone else, and maybe it’s not only that you have a crush on him, but that the chemistry is finally right in other important ways. The relief of someone "getting it" may have helped trigger the crush. Probably worth sticking around, especially if you already know you get other things out of it besides the proximity to him! And you may also have found that you can simply relate better to a young-ish therapist. Many others in a campus setting may feel less stagnant (or whatever) to you too. The biggest reason to think it could be different this time may be that you are trying it away from your parent's town, their oversight of your therapy experiences, and the negative associations with that. Maybe it’s a great thing that you got in trouble and could find out!
===========
> So... Does he probably know that I "love" him? I mean, he is young (somewhere around 30, give or take a couple years), intelligent, and nice. I can't possibly be the first one to feel this way about him. I assume, then, that there is a reason he is basically ignoring the whole issue.
>
>Unfortunately, I think the more I tell him, the crazier he realizes I am. Might he get mad at me, either for not taking the meds or for lying about it? >
=========He’s not someone who jumps in anywhere and simply demands/monitors healthy behaviors, he’s the one who helps you figure out how to get to them! Why not add one more different factor to the better mix you have this time, and try not to consciously filter what you say to him so much? I doubt he’s really ignoring your feelings for him, he may not know how much of an issue this is for you. But he's surely prepared to discuss such things and there's no aberration here. About the meds, he may have wanted to reevaluate that using his own resources anyway – it’s not like what went before has helped you. Or was ever even *based* on you, since you never assisted in making sure the fit was the best possible! Try not to worry, the bottom line is that therapists know they're often dealing with people who need more time to build trust, and who may therefore even have cut some corners earlier in the process with them. If you're straightforward you can always know you did your part, whatever the outcome is.
Posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 12:06:31
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » KindGirl, posted by Fallen4myT on March 11, 2004, at 19:50:41
Hi, I'm new here, and I hope you don't mind my joining the conversation.
I'm a female and have a male Pdoc/T.
I would never have thought to tell my doc "I love you"...but I guess i can see a client telling their therapist that.
My doc and I have seen eachother for over two years and are close - but I think " I love you" would be somewhat inappropriate.
I will have to leave him soon, am moving to another state...I'll probably try to hug him and thank him, but I don't see any " I love you" s coming out of either of our mouths;)
Just my feelings with my doctor. No offense to anyone.
Delphi
Posted by lonelygirl on March 22, 2004, at 13:58:03
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » Fallen4myT, posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 12:06:31
Hi Delphi68; welcome... I am new myself (I just joined on Thursday or Friday).
I would not say "I love you" to my psychologist, either, because I think it would be inappropriate and maybe freak him out, but I do feel like I love him. What about you? Do you not love him, or do you love him and just not feel comfortable saying so? I would imagine that after seeing him for two years, you could be pretty open with him, but maybe I'm wrong. I've been seeing mine since late November, except for a 5-week break in December and January. I am moving out of state in May, so I will have to leave him then.
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 14:55:26
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » Fallen4myT, posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 12:06:31
Hi welcome and I am semi newish too been here maybe 2 months? No offense taken I sure can't say I love you to my T either...wish I could and if ending therapy would wanna hug and say thanks but will be doing good to say thanks so much and all....maybe Ill be able to say Ill miss you but TOO shy for I LOVE YOU :)
>
> Hi, I'm new here, and I hope you don't mind my joining the conversation.
>
> I'm a female and have a male Pdoc/T.
>
> I would never have thought to tell my doc "I love you"...but I guess i can see a client telling their therapist that.
>
> My doc and I have seen eachother for over two years and are close - but I think " I love you" would be somewhat inappropriate.
>
> I will have to leave him soon, am moving to another state...I'll probably try to hug him and thank him, but I don't see any " I love you" s coming out of either of our mouths;)
>
> Just my feelings with my doctor. No offense to anyone.
>
> Delphi
Posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 15:15:53
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » Delphi68, posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 14:55:26
> Hi welcome and I am semi newish too been here maybe 2 months? No offense taken I sure can't say I love you to my T either...wish I could and if ending therapy would wanna hug and say thanks but will be doing good to say thanks so much and all....maybe Ill be able to say Ill miss you but TOO shy for I LOVE YOU :)
> >
Hi:)Yes, I'm right there with you...hugs, thanks, miss yous:)
Oh, and I can totally understand falling in love with one's therapist. Mine's just not my type..lol
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 16:32:55
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » Fallen4myT, posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 15:15:53
Lol D I would have never thought LOOKS wise mine was my type but you know when youre a kid growing up and thinking on Mr Right's qualifications? You know, like for me honest, believes in God, smart, kind of moral :P , kind , gentle, and so on,,,,,anyhow my T is that and MORE I am sooo in love but will NEVER say it...he kinda knows by my hints but ? and no way lol
Posted by Delphi68 on March 22, 2004, at 16:38:15
In reply to Re: Do you and your t. say l love you ever? » Delphi68, posted by Fallen4myT on March 22, 2004, at 16:32:55
> Lol D I would have never thought LOOKS wise mine was my type but you know when youre a kid growing up and thinking on Mr Right's qualifications? You know, like for me honest, believes in God, smart, kind of moral :P , kind , gentle, and so on,,,,,anyhow my T is that and MORE I am sooo in love but will NEVER say it...he kinda knows by my hints but ? and no way lol
Hahaha..well, I don't mean looks, perse...looks don't mean much. How about chemistry? Like I said-- I feel like he's kinda fatherly:)
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