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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 19 to 43 of 79. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:20:28
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:18:05
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:32:07
In reply to Re: Jay, is this the society you refer to?, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:20:28
I gave links to your posts so that there would be no misunderstanding. And I'm perfectly willing to post the content of my email.
Dinah
Posted by Penny on October 7, 2003, at 11:34:15
In reply to Re: OK, it's in my outbox, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:32:07
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 11:35:52
In reply to Re: Thank you, Dinah. (nm), posted by Penny on October 7, 2003, at 11:34:15
Well, I haven't sent it yet. I want to make sure I'm sending it to the proper association. But I would like them to have a chance to clarify their position.
Posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 11:37:09
In reply to Re: Adia, Please don't panic, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 10:44:32
Dear Dinah,
Thank you :o)
I will hang on to this...
I just panicked, I am not in the best place to read something like that. I get scared to read or be told that talking about feelings is not okay when I am trying hard to convince myself that it is okay to talk or tell my therapist what I feel.
You are right and I can't think that my therapist would ever hurt me so much and terminate with me because of the intensity of my feelings or if I tell her I love her or share my feelings for her.I smiled with what you've told your therapist because I would tell mine just the same :o)
Thank you again for the reassurance..
Adia.> Jay is mistaken. I've told my therapist that I see him as a mother dog to my blind pup. That I see him as a giant breast and smell milk. (well, I told someone, maybe not him). If I were sexually attracted to him, I'd tell him so. I've told him I loved him (not in a sexual way).
>
> Your therapist is not going to refer you to someone else for that.
>
> The only way you might earn a referral is if you disrobed and threw yourself on her, or stalked her or something where she feared for her safety.
>
> PLEASE, don't worry about this.
Posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 11:45:08
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy » Adia, posted by Penny on October 7, 2003, at 10:49:41
Thank you Penny...
Thanks for explaining this to me...
Thank you for saying my T won't terminate with me because of my feelings for her.
I struggle to convince myself it is okay to tell her my feelings and I always fear she will abandon me if I share my feelings..and I read something like that and I just panic.
But I have absolute trust in her and I trust in my heart that she would never terminate with me because of that, she's always encouraging me to talk or tell her what I feel no matter what.Thank you for your message...It helped me :O)
I am so glad you have such a wonderful therapist. When I read this kind of thing, I feel so fortunate to have found mine too.
Thank you...
Adia.> Don't panic!
>
> I'm going to bring up this topic in therapy today, to see what my therapist says. But I have had the 'transference' talk with both my current and former therapists and pdoc, and none of them have terminated as a result! The only circumstance I can think of that would cause a therapist to terminate as a result of transference would be the therapist's inability to handle those feelings (well, the therapist's experience of countertransference and his or her inability to handle *those* feelings). Or if you were to admit feelings for your therapist (I'm thinking romantic) and they were to admit that they felt the same way - that is unethical.
>
> But a therapist would have to be cold and unfeeling to turn a client away because of transference feelings - in fact, I suspect that could be grounds for malpractice.
>
> Don't panic, Adia! Your therapist isn't going to terminate you b/c you've admitted mother/child feelings toward her. As a skilled practitioner, she's going to take those feelings and use them to help you deal with your issues. That's what she's there for.
>
> She sounds like a wonderful therapist. Mine is too.
>
> P
Posted by underthecs on October 7, 2003, at 13:26:36
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy » Dinah, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 10:50:33
> Again, I am not trying to say that clients, in their minds, should not harbour any feelings towards a therapist. But, when that line is crossed and feelings turn into words, or an inappropriate gesture, the common practice is to terminate.
geez... what planet are you living on? No line is being "crossed" when a client expresses feelings. i'm glad you're not my therapist. perhaps a little continuing education is in order. and i mean this in the nicest possible way...
Posted by Medusa on October 7, 2003, at 15:29:45
In reply to Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 8:13:22
Posted by stjames on October 7, 2003, at 15:34:26
In reply to Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 8:13:22
Way, way off here.
Posted by underthecs on October 7, 2003, at 17:46:15
In reply to oh, no! how am I supposed to get laid then? (nm), posted by Medusa on October 7, 2003, at 15:29:45
Posted by pinkeye on October 7, 2003, at 22:01:05
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy » jay, posted by underthecs on October 7, 2003, at 13:26:36
This is a no win situation for both the therapist and the client.
The whole therapy idea is based on creating a pseudo relationship between the client and the therapist, and when the client gets mesmerized by the pseudo stuff and gets involved for real, then the therapist don't know how to deal with it or get scared and run.It is hard to blame the therapist also, because their job requires them to talk lovingly, patiently whereas they know better not to get their heart involved.
And frankly, it is 1000 times more easier for the clients to get attracted to the therapist than vice versa. So poor clients go to therapy, pay for it, and get treated halfway and then are stuck with not progressing any further, either due to the intensity of the feelings and then get stuck with dealing with these things themselves. And therapists are also on a double edge, on one side willing to help the patients as much as possible, and on the other hand knowing the feelings that the client develops towards them but not knowing how to prevent it.
PinkEye.
Posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:34:07
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by stjames on October 7, 2003, at 15:34:26
> Way, way off here.
Say what???? These guidelines where originated by the International Federation of Social Workers. They (and us social workers) have the backing to realize their weight and how they are *properly* used.Jay
Posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:50:29
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics For Jay» jay, posted by pinkeye on October 7, 2003, at 22:01:05
I honestly think folks don't quite understand the intricacies of therapy. The line between a casual relationship and a professional one is quite distinct for those who have practiced social work. So, I've been talking to a few other of my colleagues about the issue, and they very much echo mine. It is not about having a sterile relationship with your client. I think most of you have read me the wrong way.
Anyhow...here are the couple of notes from fellow social workers...and names are omitted of course.:
This is from the head of Social Work at a major U.S. school:
1) "Some times just restating the fact in a very unemotional, nonjudgmental tone
"So you are feeling a romantic attraction to me?" Works effectively.And next the counselor should tell them that if may be appropriate to refer
them to someone else for counseling. I wouldn't terminate them at that
point, maybe try to make them understand transference and how common these
things can be but they are inappropriate from the counselors point of view.
The other issue is they are going to feel some rejection, so it's an
opportunity to deal with those issues too."2) "First, I think it depends on the type of social work you're doing. Ethics is ethics, but responses will vary depending on whether you're doing therapy, working with children, making resource referrals, working for managed care, etc.
My gut feeling is it's not a problem if a patient develops an attachment to the therapist; this is grist for the therapy mill. The problem is when the therapist develops an attachment to the patient. If you're not highly experienced in managing these feelings, supervision is the best approach."
FWIW, my two cents.
C.
--------------
My main point being, is besides counsellors, clients must take some responsibility for how their actions could affect the professional/client relationship. This is not just an ethical argument, but a legal one also. It differs in many places, but a counsellor can be charged for appearing to any way 'entice' the client. Plus, especially for sexual abuse survivors, this can be deeply dangerous ground. There is plenty of time to socialize out in public or at a bar, but a professional is being paid good money to utilize very complex and intricate skills.Anyhow, I am feeling kinda wiped from all of this, am not looking for a "fight", so let's just say I understand you, and you understand me.
Sincerely,
Jay
Posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 23:10:49
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics For=== ALL, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:50:29
No, I'm afraid I *don't* understand you.
I have been on this board for I don't know how long. Trying to help people to see that it is perfectly ok to feel however you feel towards your therapist. That your therapist will not reject you (if he is halfway competent) for expressing your feelings. You said on the other board that clients have to be taught the difference between behavior appropriate to friends and that appropriate to strangers and/or therapists. How on earth can you equate a therapist with a stranger?
This is an important subject to me Jay. And I am not going to let it drop with an "I honestly think folks don't quite understand the intricacies of therapy. The line between a casual relationship and a professional one is quite distinct for those who have practiced social work." Give me a bit of credit, Jay. I may not be a social worker, but I understand transference.
Of course there is a line between a casual relationship and a therapeutic one. The main one being that a therapist must concentrate on the client's wellbeing not his own. So you feel uncomfortable with the tranference. You're going to abandon the client?
Not only am I hitting that send button, because if that is the position of your organization, I think clients have a right to know to choose a different sort of professional than a social worker. But I am also going to send out a blanket invitation to any mental health professional who will hear me to come weigh in on this topic.
I have been urging people to be honest with their therapists. Not to keep their feelings hidden. That there is nothing wrong with feeling strong feelings for your therapist and admitting them. If I've been giving out lousy advice I want to know it so that I can tell people to lie through their teeth so as not to make their therapist feel uncomfortable. Heaven forfend!!!!
Posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 23:30:03
In reply to Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 8:13:22
Dinah is absolutely right. And so are your colleagues you quoted. Neither of them said that the client should be dismissed for feeling that way. Both of them said that it is a good opportunity to deal with rejection issues, and that it's not the client's feelings that are the problem, it's the therapist's.
It is absolutely, positively, in no way, shape, or form, unusual or wrong to feel a strong attraction for your therapist. Someimes it's a sexual attraction, sometimes it's not. But it's usually an intense feeling of love or affection. It is genuinely a golden opporunity to deal with issues on a level which could never otherwise be accessed. I speak from personal experience.
I think you're doing a lot of damage here. There are many, many, many schools of therapy that *encourage* transference. If social work isn't one of them, then let that be a warning to us all to stay away from social workers.
Posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 23:45:13
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 23:30:03
Just wanted to say thanks to you Hannah and Dinah...
I've been trying to write a post and I can't find words because I feel so triggered ... silly me! :-( But this makes me so frustrated ..and it triggers so many fears.
I hang on to your words here and to what my T has shown me over the years.
It is dangerous or harmful to imply that a patient's feelings could be wrong or cause their therapist to terminate or abandon them...Just wanted to say thanks Hannah and Dinah :-)
sorry I can't contribute much
to this, it just triggers me too much...Adia.
> Dinah is absolutely right. And so are your colleagues you quoted. Neither of them said that the client should be dismissed for feeling that way. Both of them said that it is a good opportunity to deal with rejection issues, and that it's not the client's feelings that are the problem, it's the therapist's.
>
> It is absolutely, positively, in no way, shape, or form, unusual or wrong to feel a strong attraction for your therapist. Someimes it's a sexual attraction, sometimes it's not. But it's usually an intense feeling of love or affection. It is genuinely a golden opporunity to deal with issues on a level which could never otherwise be accessed. I speak from personal experience.
>
> I think you're doing a lot of damage here. There are many, many, many schools of therapy that *encourage* transference. If social work isn't one of them, then let that be a warning to us all to stay away from social workers.
Posted by judy1 on October 8, 2003, at 10:58:53
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy » HannahW, posted by Adia on October 7, 2003, at 23:45:13
as a former victim of boundary crossing by a therapist and part of the follow-up investigation by the APA, I do have some thoughts after many conversations regarding this act. transference is a normal part of a therapeutic relationship, and while not recognized nearly enough, counter-transference by the therapist is also part of it. as a client, talking about your feelings are valid and an important part of strengthening the therapeutic relationship. I have never been terminated or hurt in any way when discussing my feelings towards the numerous psycholgists/psychiatrists/ or social workers I have seen. The trouble starts when the therapist cannot control his/her counter-transference feelings. If he/she is able to recognize that these feelings exist then he/she needs to speak to a supervisor or other therapist on how to handle these feelings. Since the client always comes first, and if the therapist is unable to maintain good boundaries (there is nothing wrong with thoughts, I'm writing about inappropriate physical contact or seeing the client outside the office, etc.) then the therapist must refer the client to another therapist. I've seen nothing here (unless I missed it) about boundary crossing-e.g. the physical contact I experienced- just a lot of emotional feelings that I consider part of a good therapeutic relationship. I hope I didn't confuse things further, and these are strictly my experiences.
take care, judy
Posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics Therapy, posted by judy1 on October 8, 2003, at 10:58:53
And told her about this topic that was being hashed out on Psychological Babble. And her comment was that it was 'silly' to think that a therapist would terminate a client for feeling any certain way and voicing those feelings.
Granted, she's not a social worker, she's a psychologist. With many years of experience. But I know that my former therapist, a clinical social worker, felt the same way, as we discussed transference many times.
What my therapist emphasized is that the whole point of therapy is to DISCUSS those feelings, rather than acting on them. So BY ALL MEANS tell your therapist how you are feeling so you can address it in therapy via TALKING.
She did say that if the feelings on behalf of the therapist, whether good or bad, became more than the therapist could handle, then it would be the therapist's obligation to refer the patient to another therapist - b/c in such a case, those feelings would be detrimental to the therapy and the client. But this isn't usually a problem, as most therapists are trained to handle such feelings.
And I brought up my point of 'isn't that why so many therapists are in therapy?' and she said of course.
And I won't go any further with what she said, but suffice it to say that, according to MY therapist, there is NOTHING wrong with any feelings you have for your therapist, good or bad, and it is a good idea for you to share your feelings with your therapist, b/c it allows you to work through them in therapy. I would imagine this is especially important if you are feeling particularly troubled by your feelings.
And on a personal note, as someone who is planning on attending social work school to become a therapist - if a therapist gets that freaked out about a client having strong feelings toward him or her, then perhaps they are in the wrong line of work.
P
Posted by Dinah on October 8, 2003, at 13:12:03
In reply to Re: Well, I talked to MY therapist last night..., posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
Posted by Tabitha on October 8, 2003, at 14:33:04
In reply to Re: Thank you, Penny. :) (nm), posted by Dinah on October 8, 2003, at 13:12:03
tried to post before but it wouldn't work. Have we thoroughly debunked this notion yet? I'd never even heard such an idea-- and I've done a lot of reading about what's appropriate and normal and unethical in therapy. Every time I get mad at my therapist I start looking up that type of information, for clients to evaluate their therapist. I've seen over and over that it's strictly forbidden for a therapist to have a sexual relationship with a client. I've never seen jay's idea before-- that it's unethical for a therapist to see a client who talks about feelings of attraction.
If anyone has any doubts I suggest they do what Penny did and just ask their therapist.
I also take issue with the suggestion, that has also been made previously, that of all types of counselors, only social workers adhere to ethical guidelines. That simply isn't true. Psychologists and other licensed therapists such as marriage and family counselors also have ethical guidelines, and can lose their license if they violate them.
Posted by stjames on October 8, 2003, at 18:28:35
In reply to Re: Please read..Code of Ethics..right on the mark, posted by jay on October 7, 2003, at 22:34:07
> > Way, way off here.
>
>
> Say what???? These guidelines where originated by the International Federation of Social Workers. They (and us social workers) have the backing to realize their weight and how they are *properly* used.
>
> Jay
It is ***your**** interpretation of what they said that is way off.
>
Posted by Adia on October 8, 2003, at 23:45:08
In reply to Re: Well, I talked to MY therapist last night..., posted by Penny on October 8, 2003, at 12:52:07
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 9:54:34
In reply to Re: Please read...Code of Ethics For=== JAY, posted by Dinah on October 7, 2003, at 23:10:49
http://www.mhsource.com/expert/exp1122898a.html
Note that nowhere did the expert say that a client would be terminated for speaking of her feelings.
I'll post more links from professionals as I get a chance. Since I am not a professional, and so my opinion carries less weight.
Posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 10:01:19
In reply to From an expert, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 9:54:34
Transference (female attracted to female therapists)
Marty Klein, Ph.D. · 06/30/03 at 1:33 ET
All good psychotherapy, if it lasts long enough, raises multiple feelings and fantasies about intimacy, closeness, sensuality, acceptance, and some sort of connection outside of therapy. Putting aside the therapist's projections, feelings, and needs for a moment, we call this collection of fantasies and feelings that patients have "transference."Good therapists look for signs of this phenomenon in their patients, both male and female. The dynamics are both unique in each individual, and known to have certain common configurations. Patients who experience these feelings and don't discuss them with the therapist are sabotaging the therapy. Therapists who are afraid to initiate discussions about patients' feelings are of limited effectiveness.
If you are concerned about patients being attracted to you, or you being attracted to patients, i urge you to discuss this with your supervisor. If you are uncomfortable doing so, either get a new supervisor or pay an experienced therapist in your area for a few hours' supervision on this issue.
Books that are especially insightful about this (and which are readable!) are:
* Weinberg, The heart of psychotherapy
* Solomon, Countertransference in couples therapy
* Haule, The love cure
* Mann, Psychotherapy: an erotic relationship
I could go on and on. There must be thousands of professionals out there saying the same thing.
Posted by Penny on October 9, 2003, at 10:21:33
In reply to Re: From another expert » Dinah, posted by Dinah on October 9, 2003, at 10:01:19
Thanks, Dinah.
I just posted another response to Jay on PBA. Here's the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031008/msgs/267266.html
P
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