![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 59 to 83 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:29:45
Hey Elroy,
Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.I hope you're doing well.
World Citizen
Posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:41:16
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 21:16:20
Elroy, you will DEFINATELY be able to wean from Xanax if you're taking Neurontin. That is exactly how I did it before. Did they do a liver panel? Neurontin can be very hard on the liver. You might was to get some "Liver Guard" from Source Naturals.
I can't tell you how thrilled I am to hear that someone else has tried and is having such a good response to DLPA/Selegiline etc.
I wonder how many posters at this site are aware that the pharmaceutical industry is trying to make supplements unavailable over the counter (not unlike what recently occured in the EU)? You guys think it couldn't happen here? I guess it would be advisable for someone who is internet savvy (hint, hint) to post some information about this so we know what's likely to be on the horizon and what we can do about it!!!!!!!!!
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by Elroy on March 10, 2005, at 20:46:10
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
K
> Kara,
>
> Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
>
> Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
>
> It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
>
> I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
>
>
>
>
> I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
>
> > Elroy,
> >
> > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> >
> > Kara
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
World Citizen
Posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 13:59:46
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
>
> Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
>
> SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I'm glad the Doxepin is helping, the stuff made me gain 30 lbs.
>
> World Citizen
Thanks for your concern. I am well aware that selegiline is an MAOI but it is selective for MAO-B at dosage of 5 mg. Others here have combined it with 25 mg. of a tricyclic. I tend to be very cautious and so have avoided the combination so far.In addition, although full MAOIs are said to be contraindicated with tricylics, some people on the meds board are currently combining the two. SLS is taking 70 mg. of Parnate along with 100 mg. of nortriptyline. It's the more serotonergic TCAs such as clomipramine that the are the most dangerous to combine.
Yes, the pounds are starting to pile on. I'm trying to watch myself carefully but it's not easy.
k
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 18:54:01
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
Still cannot get that link to open, having tried several different combinations.
Hmmm....
Anyway, had a couple of good first days with the Neurotin, in fact... very good, but today it seemed like some of the neuropathy type pains are coming back. Just very slightly, but enough that I could occasional notice... but, wow!, it was like I didn't notice any neuropathy pains at all the first two days and there was ZERO anxiety.
BTW, I have really just started (also) the Selegiline combo - and have been going very, very conservatively with the Selegiline/DPLA (5mg and 250mg with 50mg B6) as I am very concerned about it creating any additional anxiety right now.
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:25:09
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
Also....
At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
And my wife then made an interesting observation.
She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
Hmmm.....
Coincidence?
Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
>
> I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
>
> Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
>
> K
>
>
> > Kara,
> >
> > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> >
> > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> >
> > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> >
> > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> >
> > > Elroy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:52:48
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Hey....
Check out the chart at: http://qualitycounts.com/fpdopamine.htm
The one titled: "Neurotransmitters in Various Disorders"
Notice that dopamine (the key neurotransmitter in the selegiline combo) is indicated as NOT being an involved neurotransmitter (i.e, one that is deficient ) in the various disorders that are related to anxiety? For example, "General Anxiety Disorder", Panic, OCD, and Phobias"... but IS an involved neurotransmitter in depressions, addictions, etc?
I wish that the chart would have shown where GABA and Acetylcholine fit into the picture with those disorders.
Am starting to think that since my primary problem has always been anxiety and that my two best results to date have been with Xanax and Neurontin - which are both GABA influencing medications - and have problems with seroronin influencing agents (SSRI Lexapro) and combined serotonin and Norepinephrine influencing agents (SSRI and SSNRI Effexor and Cymbalta) that maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with addressing a possibly non exitant dopamine deficiency peroblem???
Hmmm....
Starting to think about cutting out the selegilinecombo for several days (two weeks) and staying just with the Neurontin and Xanax and evaluate it. If it erturns to how it was the first couple of days with the neurontin... well, why would it be that I would even need to take the selegiline combo??? I mean, unless I wanted to keep taking the deprenyl by itself at about 2 x 5mg weekly just for longevity /cognitive effects???
If I feel that a problem continues with the presence of a depression factor, I can always add the selegiline combo back in, eh? But addressing tactics to combat the primary problems first (high cortisol, severe anxiety, high neuropathy pains) only seems to make sense. If a secondary factor (like depression) still remains present then I can adderess that separately when I get to that fork in the road....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
>
> I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
>
> I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
>
> Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
>
> K
>
>
> > Kara,
> >
> > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> >
> > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> >
> > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> >
> > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> >
> > > Elroy,
> > >
> > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > >
> > > Kara
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 21:32:10
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 11, 2005, at 1:29:27
Couple of sites to check out concerning GABA.....
http://www.vcu-cme.org/gaba/gaba2_22.pdf
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/73/88950.htm
Did you say that you had tried Neurontin but had problems with it? Adverse side effects? Too swedating, maybe? The first two days on it - and the very first day was before I started the Selegiline combo - I had a ton of energy and vitality (so I can't credit that first day to the selegiline combo), but today there were two different times where I just couldn't keep my eyes open for anything!Some of the reviews that I've read have indicated that several people had the symptoms fade out after the first few days....
Trying to find an easy way to increase GABA levels in the brain. GABA - the amino acid - is really cheap when bought in bulk, but GABA as an amino acid ahs a very hard time crossing thru the brain's blood barrier.
See: http://www.raysahelian.com/gaba.html
QUOTE: GABA is made in the brain from the amino acid glutamate with the aid of vitamin B6. GABA is available as a supplement in vitamin stores, but taking it in pill form is not always an effective way to raise brain levels of this neurotransmitter because GABA cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier. Companies are searching for ways to place GABA in an oil base in order to ease its entry across this barrier. END QUOTE
QUOTE: GABA pharmacology-what prospects for the future? Biochem Pharmacol. 2004 Oct 15;68(8):1537-40.
Following the recognition of GABA as an inhibitory neurotransmitter, the discovery of high affinity GABA uptake, and the characterisation of GABA receptors great progress has been made in developing GABA pharmacology. Tiagabide, the first marketed GABA uptake inhibitor may be followed by new and more selective uptake inhibitors. Knowledge of the molecular pharmacology of GABA-A receptors, both synaptic and non-synaptic, may lead to improved anti-anxiety/anticonvulsant agents devoid of the sedative and dependence liabilities of earlier compounds and new hypnotics. Gaboxadol (THIP) is an example of a novel hypnotic that acts on GABA-A receptors by a non-benzodiazepine mechanism. Exploiting neurosteroid interactions with GABAergic mechanisms also holds much future promise. END QUOTEPossible modification that does easily cross the brain barrier?
http://www.antiaging-systems.net/picamilone-info.htm
http://www.horizonnutra.com/lpyro.html
http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magmain.php?issueID=4&pageID=65
Also, and this is interesting, but I definitely recall reading in a book on anxiety somewhere that we also have GABA receptors not only located in our brain, but in our stomach and chest areas... so maybe oral consumption of GABA does have some non brain related beneficial actions?
Posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by world citizen on March 11, 2005, at 11:31:48
>
> Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
>
> SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
Rick
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:09:54
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:25:09
Hi Elroy,
Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
Take care,
Kara
> No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
>
> What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
>
> My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
>
> Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
>
> What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
>
> Also....
>
> At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
>
> Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
>
> Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
>
> And my wife then made an interesting observation.
>
> She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
>
> When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
>
> Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
>
> Hmmm.....
>
> Coincidence?
>
> Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
>
> Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
>
> But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
>
> As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> >
> > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> >
> > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > > Kara,
> > >
> > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > >
> > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > >
> > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > >
> > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > >
> > > > Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:32:13
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 20:52:48
Hi,
That's a very useful chart. I wonder why Braverman doesn't address norepinephrine in his book. OTOH, he does address GABA and acetylcholine. Usually charts and articles about depression and anxiety tend to address dopamine, norepinephrine and serotonin but not GABA or acetylcholine.What has been your problem with SSRIs and SNRIs? I don't remember if you've discussed this earlier, but did the Braverman tests show that you have a serotonin deficiency at all? I ask because the link to the chart you posted shows serotonin deficiency as being involved in all the various types of anxiety problems.
I have been on SSRIs/SNRIs for many years. They helped my anxiety immensely. Lately however, I have been in an extremely anxious depression (couldn't eat or sleep or even sit still - also having panic attacks and becoming agoraphobic). Since I was so anxious and my system so sensitive, I have not been able to tolerate these meds at all recently when I tried to go back on them. The smallest amount of Effexor sent me up the wall. Zoloft wasn't much better. I'm wondering if the same might be true for you - that you might be able to tolerate this class of meds once your anxiety is better under control.
In terms of your question about addressing a possible dopamine problem, you probably have no way of knowing for certain whether you could benefit from selegiline without giving it a full trial (unless maybe QEEG could tell you that).
K
> Hey....
>
> Check out the chart at: http://qualitycounts.com/fpdopamine.htm
>
> The one titled: "Neurotransmitters in Various Disorders"
>
> Notice that dopamine (the key neurotransmitter in the selegiline combo) is indicated as NOT being an involved neurotransmitter (i.e, one that is deficient ) in the various disorders that are related to anxiety? For example, "General Anxiety Disorder", Panic, OCD, and Phobias"... but IS an involved neurotransmitter in depressions, addictions, etc?
>
> I wish that the chart would have shown where GABA and Acetylcholine fit into the picture with those disorders.
>
> Am starting to think that since my primary problem has always been anxiety and that my two best results to date have been with Xanax and Neurontin - which are both GABA influencing medications - and have problems with seroronin influencing agents (SSRI Lexapro) and combined serotonin and Norepinephrine influencing agents (SSRI and SSNRI Effexor and Cymbalta) that maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree with addressing a possibly non exitant dopamine deficiency peroblem???
>
> Hmmm....
>
> Starting to think about cutting out the selegilinecombo for several days (two weeks) and staying just with the Neurontin and Xanax and evaluate it. If it erturns to how it was the first couple of days with the neurontin... well, why would it be that I would even need to take the selegiline combo??? I mean, unless I wanted to keep taking the deprenyl by itself at about 2 x 5mg weekly just for longevity /cognitive effects???
>
> If I feel that a problem continues with the presence of a depression factor, I can always add the selegiline combo back in, eh? But addressing tactics to combat the primary problems first (high cortisol, severe anxiety, high neuropathy pains) only seems to make sense. If a secondary factor (like depression) still remains present then I can adderess that separately when I get to that fork in the road....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> >
> > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> >
> > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> >
> > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> > > Kara,
> > >
> > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > >
> > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > >
> > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > >
> > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > >
> > > > Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > >
> > > > Kara
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:55:50
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 11, 2005, at 21:32:10
Hi again,
You've got me thinking more about GABA. Even though I have so many problems with anxiety, I was concentrating more on serotonin. The main reason for that being that serotonergic meds would completely control my anxiety and help a little with depression (though there was plenty of room for improvement with depression.) Other reasons were my experience with Neurontin and the difficulty of getting supplements past the BBB (as you indicated in your post).
I have Picamilon at home. I've tried it a couple of times. It had a very mild effect. I guess you have to take it consistently 3 times a day for 30 days to get the full effect. Then you're supposed to go off of it for a month or so as tolerance is easily developed. I haven't given it a full trial yet. Because of the fact that you can't use it continually, it seems to be more of an adjunctive therapy - not something you can rely on all of the time.
I'll have to take the Braverman test and see what it says about my GABA situation.
Again, your good response to Neurontin would seem to indicate that you're on the right track here.
K
> Couple of sites to check out concerning GABA.....
>
> http://www.vcu-cme.org/gaba/gaba2_22.pdf
>
> http://my.webmd.com/content/article/73/88950.htm
>
>
> Did you say that you had tried Neurontin but had problems with it? Adverse side effects? Too swedating, maybe? The first two days on it - and the very first day was before I started the Selegiline combo - I had a ton of energy and vitality (so I can't credit that first day to the selegiline combo), but today there were two different times where I just couldn't keep my eyes open for anything!
>
> Some of the reviews that I've read have indicated that several people had the symptoms fade out after the first few days....
>
> Trying to find an easy way to increase GABA levels in the brain. GABA - the amino acid - is really cheap when bought in bulk, but GABA as an amino acid ahs a very hard time crossing thru the brain's blood barrier.
>
> See: http://www.raysahelian.com/gaba.html
>
> QUOTE: GABA is made in the brain from the amino acid glutamate with the aid of vitamin B6. GABA is available as a supplement in vitamin stores, but taking it in pill form is not always an effective way to raise brain levels of this neurotransmitter because GABA cannot easily cross the blood-brain barrier. Companies are searching for ways to place GABA in an oil base in order to ease its entry across this barrier. END QUOTE
>
> QUOTE: GABA pharmacology-what prospects for the future? Biochem Pharmacol. 2004 Oct 15;68(8):1537-40.
> Following the recognition of GABA as an inhibitory neurotransmitter, the discovery of high affinity GABA uptake, and the characterisation of GABA receptors great progress has been made in developing GABA pharmacology. Tiagabide, the first marketed GABA uptake inhibitor may be followed by new and more selective uptake inhibitors. Knowledge of the molecular pharmacology of GABA-A receptors, both synaptic and non-synaptic, may lead to improved anti-anxiety/anticonvulsant agents devoid of the sedative and dependence liabilities of earlier compounds and new hypnotics. Gaboxadol (THIP) is an example of a novel hypnotic that acts on GABA-A receptors by a non-benzodiazepine mechanism. Exploiting neurosteroid interactions with GABAergic mechanisms also holds much future promise. END QUOTE
>
> Possible modification that does easily cross the brain barrier?
>
> http://www.antiaging-systems.net/picamilone-info.htm
>
> http://www.horizonnutra.com/lpyro.html
>
> http://www.thebullmagazine.com/magmain.php?issueID=4&pageID=65
>
> Also, and this is interesting, but I definitely recall reading in a book on anxiety somewhere that we also have GABA receptors not only located in our brain, but in our stomach and chest areas... so maybe oral consumption of GABA does have some non brain related beneficial actions?
>
>
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 2:07:02
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
> >
> > Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
> >
> > SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
>
> I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
>
>
> Rick
>
Hi Rick,Thanks for the info. Good to know that you've been able to use trazadone with low dose selegiline. I think that Larry took 25 mg. of trimipramine with 5 mg. of selegiline without a problem (although trimipramine is supposedly the safest TCA to combine with an MAOI). Ktemene is taking a full 60 mg. of Remeron with 10 mg. of selegiline. I took 5 mg. of selegiline with a small amount of Effexor (37.5 mg. I think) a couple of times but was too afraid to combine them consistently.
K
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
In reply to RE: LYRICA and the USA, posted by gromit on March 11, 2005, at 22:58:59
According to my research Rick you should be fine. The cut-off level (for becoming an MOA Inhibitor with the dietary restrictions) is 15 - 20 mg. or higher. A couple of researchers have even indicated that the cut-off level could be as high as 30mg (or at least inferred that), but I would stay safe and keep things at the 15mg and under level.
QUOTE "At doses of 10-15mg/day or less for humans, deprenyl is a selective MAO-B inhibitor. MAO-A enzymes break down serotonin and noradrenalin, while MAO-B enzymes break down dopamine and phenylethylamine (PEA). " END QUOTE
Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates mood
QUOTE "A deficit of PEA is implicated in ADHD and depression while too much PEA might be a part of schizophrenia." END QUOTE
When administered with the deprenyl, PEA improves mood without developing tolerance. PEA alone has an extremely short half-life (the half-life of PEA is estimated at only 0.4 minutes), but when taken with deprenyl the PEA half-life is greatly extended... Also deprenyl itself apparently increases PEA levels significantly....
QUOTE: “ …deprenyl increases dopamine levels… by 40-70%, deprenyl increases PEA levels 1300 - 3500%! PEA is the preferred substrate for MAO-B, the MAO that deprenyl inhibits." END QUOTE
By the way, what's so great about this thing called PEA?
QUOTE: "Phenyl-ethyl-amine (PEA)... is indeed the great amphetamine of the romance stage of love. It makes us feel at least slightly euphoric and depresses appetite. " And also: "Among supplements, phenylalanine is known to increase PEA levels... The anti-aging drug DEPRENYL also raises PEA levels. With just the right dose of deprenyl, we see expanded life span in lab animals; with too much, lifespan shortens."
ALSO: "PEA or phenylethylamine (which speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells), DOPAMINE (the feel-good chemical)"
AND ALSO "In humans, too much PEA has been associated with psychiatric disorders (but certainly not depression). There is apparently just the right range of PEA that we need for optimal neurochemistry. Too much romance, deprenyl, or maybe even chocolate is like too much exercise — it is actually harmful."
END QUOTEFor much more info on deprenyl's very positive (low-dose) effects overall, see:
http://www.offshorepharmacy.net/ias-deprenylJS.htm
BTW, L-phenylalanine by itself (without the mirror D-version) can improve mood and relieve depression when orally administered alone and even more so deprenyl. (See: Birkmayer W, Riederer P, Linauer W, Knoll J. L-deprenyl plus L-phenylalanine in the treatment of depression. J Neural Transm. 1984;59(1):81-7.)
So if DLPA isn't working just right - or maybe too strongly, maybe too much jittery anxiety - one might want to try the L-version instead of the DL-version???
> >
> > Kara, plese consult a pharmacist before taking selegiline. My understanding is that it can be lethal to take Selegiline and tricyclics, of which doxepin is one. Also certain prescription pain relievers are to be avoided -Demerol being the only one that comes to mind.
> >
> > SELEGILINE IS NOT A SUPPLEMENT!!!!!!! It is a prescription drug and the same precautions should be practiced as with other pharmceuticals.
>
> I've been taking 10 mg selegiline with trazodone 25 mg for about 2 weeks now. I also take vicodin, officially for a torn rotator cuff but really as an AD, it doesn't help my pain much anymore. It does seem to make the vicodin more potent but maybe it's just my imagination.
>
> I researched this as much as I could, a lot of the technical stuff I don't understand, it seemed there might be a small risk but my doses are pretty low. Anyway I haven't keeled yet but YMMV.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
The more conservative numbers say that the cut-off for MAO-B selectivity is 10 mg. A friend of mine had a hypertensive crisis on 15 mg. It probably varies per individual but I'd stay on the safe side if I were you. If you go over 10 mg, then stick to the MAOI diet.
K
Posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:49:05
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
Wow thanks for the detailed post! I suspect the link will be gone soon but I've actually read that article before. Apparently my retention is really low, I had totally missed the part about ADHD and the percentage increases. Missed the B6 part too. Depression can make you dumb I guess.
Yes I've been taking DLPA on an empty stomach on and off for awhile, it does seem to give me a slight boost and more so with the deprenyl. I haven't tried the L half by itself, in fact I don't think I've ever seen it in a store, only D-Phenylalanine which I haven't tried either. I can say I prefer the DLPA to tyrosine though.
I'm taking 10 drops of liquid deprenyl but hope to be able to back down to 5 mg or less, just wanted to give it a kick start in the beginning. I did have one day when I was a little uncomfortable but it was just that one time, nothing close to a hypertensive crisis so far. One thing I can't find is how long will it take for complete MAO-B inhibition?
Anyway I see a new pdoc Monday, hopefully he'll be ok with continuing this because if not it's on to the next one. I can't afford many more $85 bottles though.
Rick
Posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) - gromit, Elroy » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
Thanks
Rick
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 17:07:35
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
> I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
I remember someone posted something on the main board a little while back about the conversion equation for the drops to the pills. Unfortunately I don't remember the answer. Maybe if you did a search of PB for "liquid selegiline" you'd find the right answer without having to look through a gazillion posts.
K
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 17:16:17
In reply to RE: CES, Neurontin and selegiline » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 1:09:54
Kara,
RE: "I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside.... "
And I think that you hit that nail square on the head! That is exactly whathas hit me just in the last couple of days. I have three primary problems (and some secondary ones that I believe were directly caused by those primary three). And I also know that the three primary problems are high cortisol, high anxiety, and severe neuropathy type pains. And I know that they "feed off of each other", so - in the case of those three - it IS imperative that I work on all three concurrently (i.e., if I just worked on getting the cortisol levels down, well, the anxiety and the pain is working just as hard at jacking the cortisol levels right back up, etc., etc.).
So the simultaneous approach was correct... but I got too carried away with it. Because my psych doc (who is pretty good, BTW) kept looking for an AD to prescribe, I got caught up in feeling that I needed to do that too. And as I read what was going on, it seemed clearly more like a dopamine deficiency problem - if there was one - than a serotonin or norepinephrine problem. Therefore the search for
something in that direction and the discovery of deprenyl (selegiline) and all the research in that direction.I am glad that I did that research as it may very well be something that I use further down the road as part of the "finishing touches" (and maybe that research has beeb helpful to people on this board maybe)... but the fact is that the depression that I have had came much later than the anxiety and has always been much less severe than the anxiety (by a factor of at least ten!) and that the depression was always orietned towards being depressed about my condition, not a generic depression.
So why get caught up in addressing one of the secondary problems (that might go away on its own once the three primaries are corrected... or can be dealt with separately as the more minor issue if it doesn't go away after that)???
Good question.
Just got caught up in the "simultaneous approach strategy" I guess.
But, yes, I have decided to shelve the deprenyl approach for now and force myself to focus strictly on The Big Three.
I have cortisol results from tests done in late February coming back soon (should have been in Friday but my endo's secretary didn't call back), so I am interested in how those levels were. I have been successful in getting those levels moving downward since about October, so hopeful that trend continues. The first decreases occurred when my psych doc put me on Ativan (about a 10 - 15% drop) and then moved me to Xanax (about another 10 - 15% drop on top of that). That was like late Sept (Ativan) and early November (Xanax). That tells me that there's definitely a link between the anxiety and cortisol, but not sure which is the cart and which is the horse! Drops that have occurred since then have been even more drastic... and I believe afre due to the fact that I have researched, identified and been taking mega doses of identified anti-cortisol compounds.
I have also just started the neurotin regimen... only since Wednesday. So far fairly dramatic results in the neuropathy and even with the anxiety. I think that due to higher cortisol levels that there was always some ongonig background anxiety present. So the Xanax was hitting about 75% of the anxiety (the Ativan was hitting about 50%). I thought I'd probably have to hit up the psych doc for stronger Xanax (XR version), but the neurotin has now covered about 20% of that background anxiety - often even the full 25%. I'd even consider weaning off of the Xanax completely, but it (Xanax) helps significantly with my tinnitus - YES, it is part-and-parcel of this whole problem... one of several symptoms that popped up out of nowehre within 2 - 3 weeks of the onset of the severe anxiety in mid June of 2004 (neuropathy pains, severely icy cold pains inside feet additional to surface neuropathy pains of hands and feet, prostatitis or severe UTI symptoms, complete loss of libido, complete erectile dysfunction, testosterone production plummeted to way below normal levels, tinnitus, extreme fatigue, lack of motivation, yet severe agitation from anxiety, panic attacks, sleeping problems.... ). I went from NONE of those problems in early/mid June to ALL of those problems by early July! And then the high cortisol problem finally discovered (only at my repeated urging by the way) in early September... but I'm sure it existed back in June - and maybe for a month or two before that if the cortisol has been causing this. Or did the severe anxiety also cause the ultra high cortisol (my levels in early Sept were almost SIX times the normal range max levels) and then the ultra high cortisol whacked those other systems???
Anyway, the neurontin has suddenly become a Big Player in my simultaneous strategy approach... and I cannot wait for Lyrica to be released on the market. If you get a chance, check out the user ratings for it at RemedyFind.com (and the first set oflistings are actually from Fibro patients as there isn;t a separate neuropathy category - these are listings from non USA citizens as still not released onto market here even though approved by FDA last Sept and used in Europe for several months at least)
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7887
http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7893Also postings on this board can be located.
Might want to give it a try when it get released??? Supposed to be more potent at lower doses with less tolerance effect and much more minimal side effects (BTW, I have had some moderate sedation effect from the neurontin as the only side effect and that frequently goes away after the first week or two).....
> Hi Elroy,
>
> Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
>
> I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
>
> I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
>
> At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
>
> Take care,
> Kara
>
>
> > No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
> >
> > What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
> >
> > My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
> >
> > Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
> >
> > What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
> >
> > Also....
> >
> > At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
> >
> > Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
> >
> > Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
> >
> > And my wife then made an interesting observation.
> >
> > She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
> >
> > When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
> >
> > Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
> >
> > Hmmm.....
> >
> > Coincidence?
> >
> > Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
> >
> > Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
> >
> > But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
> >
> > As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> >
> >
> >
> > > Hi Elroy,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> > >
> > > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> > >
> > > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> > >
> > > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> > >
> > > K
> > >
> > >
> > > > Kara,
> > > >
> > > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > > >
> > > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > > >
> > > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > > >
> > > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > > >
> > > > > Elroy,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > > >
> > > > > Kara
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 18:36:53
In reply to RE: CES, Neurontin and selegiline » KaraS, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 17:16:17
Elroy,
Sounds like you're on the right path with all of this. Hope that your latest cortisol reading is really low.
The Lyrica does sound amazing. Hopefully it will be released in the US soon. I couldn't tolerate Neurontin at all but maybe I'd have better success with this one. I'd love to have another option for anxiety control. My fingers are crossed.
Take care,
Kara
> Kara,
>
> RE: "I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside.... "
>
> And I think that you hit that nail square on the head! That is exactly whathas hit me just in the last couple of days. I have three primary problems (and some secondary ones that I believe were directly caused by those primary three). And I also know that the three primary problems are high cortisol, high anxiety, and severe neuropathy type pains. And I know that they "feed off of each other", so - in the case of those three - it IS imperative that I work on all three concurrently (i.e., if I just worked on getting the cortisol levels down, well, the anxiety and the pain is working just as hard at jacking the cortisol levels right back up, etc., etc.).
>
> So the simultaneous approach was correct... but I got too carried away with it. Because my psych doc (who is pretty good, BTW) kept looking for an AD to prescribe, I got caught up in feeling that I needed to do that too. And as I read what was going on, it seemed clearly more like a dopamine deficiency problem - if there was one - than a serotonin or norepinephrine problem. Therefore the search for
> something in that direction and the discovery of deprenyl (selegiline) and all the research in that direction.
>
> I am glad that I did that research as it may very well be something that I use further down the road as part of the "finishing touches" (and maybe that research has beeb helpful to people on this board maybe)... but the fact is that the depression that I have had came much later than the anxiety and has always been much less severe than the anxiety (by a factor of at least ten!) and that the depression was always orietned towards being depressed about my condition, not a generic depression.
>
> So why get caught up in addressing one of the secondary problems (that might go away on its own once the three primaries are corrected... or can be dealt with separately as the more minor issue if it doesn't go away after that)???
>
> Good question.
>
> Just got caught up in the "simultaneous approach strategy" I guess.
>
> But, yes, I have decided to shelve the deprenyl approach for now and force myself to focus strictly on The Big Three.
>
> I have cortisol results from tests done in late February coming back soon (should have been in Friday but my endo's secretary didn't call back), so I am interested in how those levels were. I have been successful in getting those levels moving downward since about October, so hopeful that trend continues. The first decreases occurred when my psych doc put me on Ativan (about a 10 - 15% drop) and then moved me to Xanax (about another 10 - 15% drop on top of that). That was like late Sept (Ativan) and early November (Xanax). That tells me that there's definitely a link between the anxiety and cortisol, but not sure which is the cart and which is the horse! Drops that have occurred since then have been even more drastic... and I believe afre due to the fact that I have researched, identified and been taking mega doses of identified anti-cortisol compounds.
>
> I have also just started the neurotin regimen... only since Wednesday. So far fairly dramatic results in the neuropathy and even with the anxiety. I think that due to higher cortisol levels that there was always some ongonig background anxiety present. So the Xanax was hitting about 75% of the anxiety (the Ativan was hitting about 50%). I thought I'd probably have to hit up the psych doc for stronger Xanax (XR version), but the neurotin has now covered about 20% of that background anxiety - often even the full 25%. I'd even consider weaning off of the Xanax completely, but it (Xanax) helps significantly with my tinnitus - YES, it is part-and-parcel of this whole problem... one of several symptoms that popped up out of nowehre within 2 - 3 weeks of the onset of the severe anxiety in mid June of 2004 (neuropathy pains, severely icy cold pains inside feet additional to surface neuropathy pains of hands and feet, prostatitis or severe UTI symptoms, complete loss of libido, complete erectile dysfunction, testosterone production plummeted to way below normal levels, tinnitus, extreme fatigue, lack of motivation, yet severe agitation from anxiety, panic attacks, sleeping problems.... ). I went from NONE of those problems in early/mid June to ALL of those problems by early July! And then the high cortisol problem finally discovered (only at my repeated urging by the way) in early September... but I'm sure it existed back in June - and maybe for a month or two before that if the cortisol has been causing this. Or did the severe anxiety also cause the ultra high cortisol (my levels in early Sept were almost SIX times the normal range max levels) and then the ultra high cortisol whacked those other systems???
>
> Anyway, the neurontin has suddenly become a Big Player in my simultaneous strategy approach... and I cannot wait for Lyrica to be released on the market. If you get a chance, check out the user ratings for it at RemedyFind.com (and the first set oflistings are actually from Fibro patients as there isn;t a separate neuropathy category - these are listings from non USA citizens as still not released onto market here even though approved by FDA last Sept and used in Europe for several months at least)
>
> http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7887
> http://www.remedyfind.com/rem.asp?ID=7893
>
> Also postings on this board can be located.
>
> Might want to give it a try when it get released??? Supposed to be more potent at lower doses with less tolerance effect and much more minimal side effects (BTW, I have had some moderate sedation effect from the neurontin as the only side effect and that frequently goes away after the first week or two).....
>
>
>
> > Hi Elroy,
> >
> > Thanks for explaining further about the CES. I understand better now. If it can, in fact, balance neurotransmitters as Dr. Braverman claims, then it would seem to be a good investment. I would really like to hear how Franco Neuro is doing on Dr. Braverman's program. Hopefully he'll post his progress in the near future.
> >
> > I think that you have been trying too many different things at once. It's too hard to know what is causing what and, in the long-term what is helping. Since your primary problems are anxiety and neuropathy (due to increased cortisol), then it makes sense to temporarily put the selegiline aside. You can then figure out what the Neurontin is doing on its own. As you know, medications change in their side effects as your body adjusts to them so the response you get to Neurontin could be very different a month from now than the first couple of days on it.
> >
> > I tried Neurontin many years ago to help with sleep. I don't remember it all that well except that it made me feel really sick. I only took a small amount for a night or two and never tried it again.
> >
> > At any rate, it sounds like you're on the right path since your cortisol levels have gone down.
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kara
> >
> >
> > > No, just to make sure that there's no misunderstanding, what the sales rep advised me - and the online literature has confirmed - is that the lower setting is for therapeutic response to anxiety (and insomnia) and that the higher setting is for depression and balancing the brain's neurotransmitters.
> > >
> > > What I have found with my limited use so far (like three days with trying to hit twice a day w/ higher setting for 30 minutes each and one 30 minute session with lower setting at bedtime) is as follows:
> > >
> > > My frustration is with the lower setting in that even with this second unit they sent that I don't feel it working. I put it on my wife and turned it up slightly and she felt it immediately. We did several runs with it and she couldn't see when I was turning it up or not and shje clearly felt it every time. I also put the electrodes on my tongue and at full power could then very, very faintly make out pulses! I don't know if my nerves have become really desensitized from my very high cortisol levels? Or, I should say formerly very high levels as I have been successful to getting those levels down to where they are just above the maximum end of the "normal reference range". Back in September my levels were almost SIX times the max of that range!
> > >
> > > Anyway, so far (three days?) I have noticed that the higher range of the CES does seem to basically have a calming effect, a smoothing out effect. Now I am using it while also on Xanax and Neutrontin so it's not like there's a major anxiety crisis for it to address at this point. As to what the lower range might be doing, I'm just not sure it's having that much of an effect with me or not.
> > >
> > > What I do look at as being possibly beneficial - and worth it no matter what may turn out in the other areas - is that if it does have the positive effect Dr. Braverman talks about in balancing the brain's neurotransmitters (???).
> > >
> > > Also....
> > >
> > > At this point, not really sure what I'm going to do with the Selegiline. I had a less than optimal day with the neurontin today - after having a couple of great days. On those "great days" I had almost no neuropathy type pain that I could notice, my feet - which are usally icy cold to the point of being painful - actually felt okay, and even felt warm at times! And, even more amazing, there was like no anxiety at all.. all day long! And slept great.
> > >
> > > Then today I had like some background jitteriness type anxiety for most of the day. And it seemed like once it started that I began noticing some slight return of the neuropathy symptoms and some coldness to my feet again.
> > >
> > > Hmmm.... what was the deal, what was going on differently?
> > >
> > > And my wife then made an interesting observation.
> > >
> > > She pointed out that from the start of all this (which has only been since June of 2004), that my PRIMARY problems have been elevated cortisol (and the physical/emotional/mental problems caused by same), the neuropathy type pains (more and more believed to have been developed by the high cortisol and "kept alive" by the anxiety), and the severely severe anxiety.... and that any depression has always been much milder and seems to simply exist from being depressed at all the crap I'm going through!
> > >
> > > When she mentioned that it hit me that the first day on the neurontin I had not only the pain relief but also the complete lack of anxiety... and that there was ZERO depression. Now I can't claim that first day to any effect of the Selegiline / DLPA combo as that was the day before I started it.
> > >
> > > Now after having been on the Selegiline / DLPA a couple of days I have a "down day". Granted absolutely NO depression, but a naggling return of a touch of anxiety - AND the touch of neuropathy pains....
> > >
> > > Hmmm.....
> > >
> > > Coincidence?
> > >
> > > Or is the Selegiline combo creating just enough extra energy (which to someone that is sensitive in that direction then turns into anxiety)? And that extra "chemically induced" anxiety just enough to slightly overpower the neurontin effects?
> > >
> > > Boy, I don't know. Was today just coincidentally a "down day". After all, I have been on neither the neurontin or the selegiline combo long enough to have their primary effects build up fully.
> > >
> > > But then if the selegiline IS somehow being counter-effective to the neurontin - especially as experienced in the initial couple days - well, maybe continuing the selegiline experiment at this point is being counterproductive.
> > >
> > > As my wife pointed out, my primary problem has always been severe anxiety as versus depression. In fact, from June '04 until about late October of '04 it was strictly anxiety with depression gradually entering the picture as it seemed more and more like the med docs and the psy docs just didn't know for sure what was going on....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Elroy,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the update. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the CES device was very helpful for depression as well as anxiety at the higher setting. (I'm not sure why you would want to use the lower setting if it only works on anxiety?)
> > > >
> > > > I'm glad to hear that you're doing well on selegiline. There have been many posters here who have had fantastic results with it. I wanted to try it myself but my anxiety has been so severe and I've been afraid that would make it worse. I haven't been able to tolerate Neurontin so that's not a solution for me. I am currently taking 25 mg. of doxepin which is helping immensely but I probably shouldn't mix it with selegiline. OTOH, Ktemene, who posts here periodically, uses selegiline + DLPA along with Remeron. If that's safe, then maybe the doxepin would be as well.
> > > >
> > > > I'll be curious to see if you decide to keep the CES machine. I wonder if it would work well enough on its own (for both anxiety and depression) if used regularly over a significant period of time. I have the Braverman book at home now. I've only skimmed it so far. Haven't taken the tests yet.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck tapering off of the Xanax. Please keep up posted.
> > > >
> > > > K
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Kara,
> > > > >
> > > > > Had to send the first unit back as it wasn't working in the lower frequency setting. Have had the replacement unit for just a couple days. I note that the higher freq range seems to work fairly effectively for depression... also had (usually) a calming effect. My problem with the lower freq range is that I simply don't actually "feel" the pulses (apparently nerves have become that desensitized at those loer ranges??). So I tend to develop a mentality that it's not doing anything (that lower freq range is for anxiety and insomnia).
> > > > >
> > > > > Good news is that I fonally weas able to get started on the Selegiline and DPLA / B6 regimen... and also on neurotin for my neuropathy type pains.
> > > > >
> > > > > It has been one day and the difference has been simply amazing. I believe that the Neurontin is also having a tremendously positive effect on my anxiety and that I will probably end up weaning off of the Xanax soon....
> > > > >
> > > > > I am now debating whether or not I will keep the CES device or not (I can turn it end up to 30 days with the loss of a 15% re0sticking fee)... But then it supposedly is also very good at balancing one's brain neurotransmitters so I might end up keeping it just for that aspect. Am going to use it for another couple weeks just to see if it seems to be making a difference with my combination of Segeline (etc) and the neurontin.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would say that this is definitely a technology where the effects have to "accumulate" over a period of time.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Elroy,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sorry to change the subject again but I'm really curious to find out how you've been doing with the CES device. Any luck or is it too early to tell?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kara
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.World Citizen
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:48:34
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) - gromit, Elroy » Elroy, posted by KaraS on March 12, 2005, at 15:51:14
Absolutely.
When I do give it a try, I'm going to follow the same protocol that I started to this time... 5mg in the morning, and if I think somewhat more is needed theh go with a second 5mg dose at lunch time.
I'm also going to just do the L-version of the phenylalanine and start out around 100mg. The jittery type anxiety that I had going on in the background was not - in my belief - from the deprenyl, but was from the DLPA (and 500mg at that). Or if staying with the DLPA version then doing no more than 250mg to start with (which at a 50/50 ratio would be 125mg of each version).
> The more conservative numbers say that the cut-off for MAO-B selectivity is 10 mg. A friend of mine had a hypertensive crisis on 15 mg. It probably varies per individual but I'd stay on the safe side if I were you. If you go over 10 mg, then stick to the MAOI diet.
>
> K
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:53:26
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by gromit on March 12, 2005, at 16:51:58
I can only report that I've seen posts both ways. Obviously 5mg is 5mg either way, so I think that it boils down to whether or not the liquid version metabolizes faster for some people... and if it does then is that actually even a benefit? Maybe slower metabolizing is better???
> I read a post a while back claiming the drops were way more potent than the pills. Has anybody noticed this or have a link that might confirm it?
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
>
Posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:57:07
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl, posted by world citizen on March 12, 2005, at 18:38:04
Rick, If you do, post any response (summarized) back to us on this thread. I'm dropping off of my planned (just started) selegiline / DLPA combo regimen as I have anotther med just started on Wed and want to better track what is going on with what, but am interested in it for possible long term usage.
Thanks.
Elroy
>
> Rick, you might consider posing some of these questions to joe@dancesafe.org. He's very knowledgable about Selegelint/DLPA etc. If you do tell him World Citizen sent you.
>
> World Citizen
>
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