![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 136 to 160 of 193. Go back in thread:
Posted by Kath on October 31, 2009, at 14:11:29
In reply to A new site is being considered... » BayLeaf, posted by muffled on October 31, 2009, at 12:04:13
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20090930/msgs/923408.html
~ ~ I just looked into it a bit & it looks pretty easy. Probably the hardest part in setting up the actual site is choosing a name that hasn't already been taken. On the site I went to it's a 3-step process. I went through the first 2 steps just to check it out. I tried using "OurSafePlace" & that name was already taken.
Kath
Posted by Dinah on October 31, 2009, at 16:57:40
In reply to Re: sickening » 10derHeart, posted by psych chat on October 30, 2009, at 10:04:15
I teared right up when I read your post. I felt really *heard* and understood.
Bullying is such a huge issue for me that I can't be in a place where bullying is tolerated, much less enabled. Dr. Bob knows that, or at least he did know it, perhaps he's forgotten. To have him constantly talking about us being afraid of having newcomers come to Babble as the reason we're upset is sooooo distressing to me. I don't know anyone who doesn't want people here. And altogether I think he's focusing on the wrong side of the issue. It's the use of our posts that distresses me, not that I'm afraid of hordes of people joining Babble because of Twitter or Facebook.
Sigh. That's what I love about Babble, what you did. It's a shame that Dr. Bob just doesn't listen, or if he listens, doesn't hear. He's reminding me a lot of my middle school teachers.
Again, I request that no one use Facebook or Twitter this post without my permission.
Posted by cactus on October 31, 2009, at 17:28:24
In reply to I agree with Cactus - ) Dr. Bob, posted by Kath on October 31, 2009, at 11:06:31
Thanks Kath, I feel like you really heard what I'm trying to say.
I don't think we can actually be removed from threads that we appear on once we have been twittered.
I'm leaving, I'll leave my babble mail on, please feel free to contact me anytime. C
I'm looking into psych central at the moment but if you come up with any other ideas please let me know.
Peace C
Posted by cactus on October 31, 2009, at 17:31:00
In reply to Re: another setting » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on October 31, 2009, at 10:13:53
Amazing Dinah, perfectly said. C
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 3:05:47
In reply to Re: I agree with Cactus - ) Dr. Bob » Kath, posted by cactus on October 31, 2009, at 17:28:24
> I can only speak for myself, but I would guess having that option/setting installed - from the registration/update registration - to have or not have Twitter/Facebook linking icons at the bottom of one's posts would keep people here and allow one post more supportively, and possibly bring back those who left.
>
> For new users - as far as opting out rather than in - that should work as long as it is CLEARLY stated (as opposed to being covertly imbedded into some jargon) their posts could be linked to Facebook/Twitter using the icons if they choose to not opt out. You should also tell them their initial post will be tweeted out by you to welcome them.
>
> psych chat> Yes, this seems like an excellent solution. I really hope this option is put into place. I would be satisfied.
>
> fb> I think that would be a great alternative to have an "opt out" as part of our registration.
>
> Would this opt out be applied to our older posts, or just the ones subsequent to the opt out?
>
> Seldom.> is this option one that applies to the reader of the posts or the poster of the posts?
>
> Dinah> YESSS Sounds very good.
>
> So just to verify - would this mean that the 'default' would be 'no Facebook' & people would have to request somehow that the buttons be at the bottom of their posts?
>
> KathThanks for working with me on this and supporting this plan. It should be working now. Here are links to the setting, the FAQ, and the consent:
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/settings.pl
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#sharetweet
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/consent.htmlYour setting applies to all your posts. The posts you've posted, not the posts you read. It's opt-out, like the "do not share/tweet" list was. The default is buttons, and you can opt out of the buttons if you don't want them.
--
> This would be acceptable for me, as long as people who respond or click on the twittered posts can't see us and our replies at all
>
> Cactus> I agree & to me, this is an extremely important aspect.
>
> If people join they can see all.
> If NOT - they can't - pretty simple & straightforward.
>
> Kath> I don't think we can actually be removed from threads that we appear on once we have been twittered.
>
> CactusSome of you may be unfamiliar with Twitter, which could be another source of anxiety. I should explain more. It might be worth a thousand words, so here's a "picture":
http://twitter.com/psycho_babel
That takes you to the "tweets" (posts to Twitter) by @psycho_babel (the @ indicates a Twitter username). You don't need a Twitter account to go there.
A tweet is a short text message. The text can include links. When "a post is tweeted", that whole web page doesn't show up on Twitter. All that's posted is a link and some text, either an excerpt or a request to welcome a new poster.
So that doesn't include replies. But if someone reads the tweet and clicks on the link, that brings them to Babble, and of course once they're here, they do see the whole page. Even if they haven't registered. Like Google doesn't show whole pages, but anyone can click on the links and see them.
> I had never thot of the google thing B4...
> I am going to try and be much more careful in future.
>
> muffledPlease do try to keep in mind that this is a public forum. Maybe another way the new buttons can help is to remind people of that!
--
> Bob, bigger is NOT always better.
> Having hordes descend into a group is NOT useful.
>
> muffled> people specifically looking for a site like this from a need rather than from curiosity after reading a Facebooked or Tweeted post - Those people are the new people who I'd be glad to see arrive here.
>
> I think that a large influx of new members over a short period of time isn't ideal. Who knows if that's what would result from Facebooking/Twittering.
>
> KathI don't want hordes to descend, either. That could also be a source of anxiety. But I myself think it's unlikely, and if there are in fact hordes, the number of new registrations during a particular time period could be limited, and beyond that new people could be asked to wait.
Again, I have mixed feelings about us-them thinking. I think some Facebook and Twitter users feel a need for a site like this and some current Babble users are here because of curiosity. And some people may come out of curiosity, but stay because they feel a need.
Bob
PS: I haven't gotten to some posts yet, I'll reply to them later.
Posted by henrietta on November 1, 2009, at 6:08:56
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 3:05:47
Thanks. Being able to remove the buttons helps.
Posted by Dinah on November 1, 2009, at 6:43:26
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 3:05:47
Thank you, Dr. Bob.
I do think this is a reasonable compromise.
When you register for the first time, are you directed to the settings page?
(Would it be possible for babblemail on/off to be on the settings page instead of in the registration?)
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 11:50:44
In reply to Re: another setting » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on November 1, 2009, at 6:43:26
> Thanks. Being able to remove the buttons helps.
>
> henrietta> Thank you, Dr. Bob.
>
> I do think this is a reasonable compromise.
>
> When you register for the first time, are you directed to the settings page?
>
> (Would it be possible for babblemail on/off to be on the settings page instead of in the registration?)
>
> DinahYou're welcome. Thanks for your input, and your patience.
I've included a link from the welcome page, too, that's a good idea. And I agree, babblemail should also be a setting, let me see how hard it would be to change that...
Bob
Posted by floatingbridge on November 1, 2009, at 12:00:49
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 11:50:44
:-)
an icon free,
fb
Posted by cactus on November 1, 2009, at 12:17:55
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 3:05:47
I see you've done a lot of work Dr. Bob, but my main concern has still not been addressed. This is what is forcing me to leave.
The link you provided as an example
http://twitter.com/psycho_babel
still shows my name on a particular tweet, once this particular tweet is clicked on, a psychobabble thread pops up with my name on it.
I don't want my name appearing on any tweets or links.
If anyone responds to a post which then gets twittered, their name will still appear on the related thread.
This is why people are leaving and not responding to any posts because if that post gets twittered they will appear on that thread that could end up anywhere in the world.
Sure the buttons have disappeared from my page after changing my settings but it still doesn't stop me from appearing if I respond to a post that someone tweets off the boards.
I feel like I have been lolled into a false sense of security, it hasn't fixed the problem at all and people will continue to leave in droves.
I feel like you don't understand the implications of what you are doing and how the technology behind it actually works. I also think this site has been seriously compromised and is no long safe.
I just don't understand how you can feel comfortable with the knowledge that our posts can end up anywhere and fellow babblers that do understand how this works have stopped replying to all posts.
This has nothing to do with them and us mentality, it comes down to basic privacy and the trust we put in you, which has been grossly breached.
C
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 13:46:42
In reply to Re: another setting » Dr. Bob, posted by cactus on November 1, 2009, at 12:17:55
> The link you provided as an example
>
> http://twitter.com/psycho_babel
>
> still shows my name on a particular tweetWhich one? Sorry, I'm not seeing your name anywhere there.
> I feel like I have been lolled into a false sense of security
>
> I feel like you don't understand the implications of what you are doing and how the technology behind it actually works.Let's try to come to a common understanding of how things work. You may in fact have a false sense of security. A dialectic of this community is that it is public, yet can feel private. Maybe this discussion is reminding people of that.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 14:09:01
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 11:50:44
> > (Would it be possible for babblemail on/off to be on the settings page instead of in the registration?)
>
> I agree, babblemail should also be a settingOK, I'm going to try to convert it. First, I'm going to take it out of the registration system, then I'll add it as a setting. In between, you won't be able to change it. But babblemail should keep working.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 18:48:42
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 14:09:01
> OK, I'm going to try to convert it.
It should be converted now. Let me know if you run into any problems!
Bob
Posted by cactus on November 1, 2009, at 21:05:07
In reply to Re: my name » cactus, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 13:46:42
> > The link you provided as an example
> >
> > http://twitter.com/psycho_babel
> >
> > still shows my name on a particular tweet
>
> Which one? Sorry, I'm not seeing your name anywhere there.
>**Dr Bob why did you leave the next line of my post out?** which is...
**still shows my name on a particular tweet, once this particular tweet is clicked on, a psychobabble thread pops up with my name on it.**
My name doesn't appear on the twitter hompage, that wasn't my point. It appears on a certain tweet once it's clicked on.
I feel that was rather deceiving of you to dismiss that very valid point, but most computer savvy people know exactly what I'm talking about.
Either you don't understand how it works or you are trying to deceive people. There is only 2 outcomes to this very serious scenario.
I'm very concerned. Cactus
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 0:13:08
In reply to Re: my name » Dr. Bob, posted by cactus on November 1, 2009, at 21:05:07
> > still shows my name on a particular tweet, once this particular tweet is clicked on, a psychobabble thread pops up with my name on it.
>
> My name doesn't appear on the twitter hompage, that wasn't my point. It appears on a certain tweet once it's clicked on.Tweets are posts on Twitter. Thanks for confirming that your name doesn't appear there. I wouldn't want anyone to think it did.
Your name does appear on the Babble thread that the tweet links to. But that's on Babble, not on the tweet.
Can we agree on that?
But maybe exactly where your name appears isn't the issue and what really concerns you is that it just took one click. Does it also concern you that links are on Google and one click there also brings people here?
Or maybe that's not the issue, either, and what you're really worried about is who the link might bring? Do you feel comfortable with Babble users seeing your name, but not Twitter users?
Bob
Posted by cactus on November 2, 2009, at 2:42:07
In reply to Re: my name » cactus, posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 0:13:08
> > > still shows my name on a particular tweet, once this particular tweet is clicked on, a psychobabble thread pops up with my name on it.
> >
> > My name doesn't appear on the twitter hompage, that wasn't my point. It appears on a certain tweet once it's clicked on.
>
> Tweets are posts on Twitter. Thanks for confirming that your name doesn't appear there. I wouldn't want anyone to think it did.
>
> Your name does appear on the Babble thread that the tweet links to. But that's on Babble, not on the tweet.
>
> Can we agree on that?
>
> But maybe exactly where your name appears isn't the issue and what really concerns you is that it just took one click. Does it also concern you that links are on Google and one click there also brings people here?
>
> Or maybe that's not the issue, either, and what you're really worried about is who the link might bring? Do you feel comfortable with Babble users seeing your name, but not Twitter users?
>
> BobBob, I have no problem with babblers seeing my name at all. That's why I'm here. I have huge issues with twitter users seeing my name and I'll tell you why but I just don't think you'll ever understand.
Google is a "search", tweets are sent out to others on purpose. It's actually not that different to being spammed with trash in your inbox. It's a massive difference in my book mate.
Good luck Dr. Bob, I feel you are not the ethical person I thought you were and I don't appreciate you trying to sugar coat your deceptive lies using me as an example and taking the excerpts of my posts that suited you. I felt that that was passive aggressive bullying on your behalf. I also felt like that was the biggest bitter pill I've ever had to swallow.
Google is a search engine.
Twitter is spam that is received without asking for it.
I think it will bring bullies in, without question. I hope it doesn't though, for everyone's peace of mind and all the wonderful people who made this place somewhere for me to seek refuge in times of crisis.
Sorry we don't see eye to eye on this. Cactus
Posted by Nadezda on November 2, 2009, at 10:38:18
In reply to Re: my name » Dr. Bob, posted by cactus on November 2, 2009, at 2:42:07
Think of it this way, cactus. Someone who uses twitter is not a "twitter user" and someone from Babble is not a "babble user"-- or, put another way way, there's nothing about being a user of one or the other forum (twitter or babble) that defines what type of person one is, what honor or morality one has, and what respect for other people one has.
There are lots of good people on Babble and lots of good people who use twitter; in fact, there's really nothing per se that distinguishes us from them, except that we happen to have found and come to this site.
Really once someone from twitter does a search for say a drug, and finds a tweet from babble about that drug and comes here-- how is that person different from someone who used google for searches and found Babble by searching for drug information there. --Which, by the way, is how I found Babble several years ago--
Once someone who searched/searches google for information or help-- or searches twitter for information and help-- comes here-- they are, in essence, no longer a twitter user-- they've become a babble user.
Maybe you think of twitter as this negative, superficial place full of bullies and people with bad motives-- But that may also be your fears of the unknown--
There are people here and there with mixed motives and conflicts and strengths and weaknesses. Give this new opening a chance. If it turns out to be a terrible thing, you can reevaluate. But maybe if you can just give it time, you'll find that nothing essential about babble or your experience will change-- and that our community will be what it has been--- with its strengths and weaknesses-- and potential for learning and growth.
Nadezda
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 13:34:56
In reply to Re: my name » Dr. Bob, posted by cactus on November 2, 2009, at 2:42:07
> tweets are sent out to others on purpose. It's actually not that different to being spammed with trash in your inbox. It's a massive difference in my book mate.
> Twitter is spam that is received without asking for it.
Actually, you choose whom you "follow" on Twitter. And if they tweet you what you consider spam, you can "unfollow" them.
> I think it will bring bullies in, without question. I hope it doesn't though, for everyone's peace of mind and all the wonderful people who made this place somewhere for me to seek refuge in times of crisis.
I think one reason for us-them thinking can be seeing in others what we don't like about ourselves. Babblers are wonderful. Yes, much of the time. As has been mentioned above, Babblers are also sometimes bullies, or at least can lead others to feel bullied. And being uncivil doesn't necessarily mean being a bully, but this is already my fourth PBC on this thread.
> Good luck Dr. Bob, I feel you are not the ethical person I thought you were and I don't appreciate you trying to sugar coat your deceptive lies using me as an example and taking the excerpts of my posts that suited you. I felt that that was passive aggressive bullying on your behalf. I also felt like that was the biggest bitter pill I've ever had to swallow.
Please don't post anything that could lead others (including me) to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're a bad person, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express oneself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks for wishing me good luck. I'm sorry this pill has been so big,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 14:13:19
In reply to Re: another setting, posted by Dr. Bob on November 1, 2009, at 3:05:47
> PS: I haven't gotten to some posts yet, I'll reply to them later.
Sorry it's taken so long.
> Bullying is such a huge issue for me that I can't be in a place where bullying is tolerated, much less enabled. Dr. Bob knows that, or at least he did know it, perhaps he's forgotten. To have him constantly talking about us being afraid of having newcomers come to Babble as the reason we're upset is sooooo distressing to me. I don't know anyone who doesn't want people here. And altogether I think he's focusing on the wrong side of the issue. It's the use of our posts that distresses me, not that I'm afraid of hordes of people joining Babble because of Twitter or Facebook.
>
> It's a shame that Dr. Bob just doesn't listen, or if he listens, doesn't hear. He's reminding me a lot of my middle school teachers.
>
> DinahI didn't mean to imply that there was only one reason people were upset.
In this case, it was people clicking on the button to make the number go up that led you to feel bullied? I'm sorry, but I wasn't able to tell who did that (which may have been what your teachers said, too). There may be posters who try to start arguments and upset people. Here, as in middle school, it may be best just not to respond. And you have some control over those buttons now.
--
> We are oil and water, we do not mix.
>
> muffledWell, we certainly aren't living happily ever after. But maybe we could be oil and vinegar instead?
> This happens over and over and over again. And worse, it *just* happened and over the same topic. It is hard for me to accept that you would do this again about this topic when the whole opt out compromise was so recently reached. That is part of what made this so shocking and disappointing for me. I can only imagine what those who had opted out felt about it. You basically made that list useless when doing this, which indicated to me a lot about how you felt about posters.
>
> Right now there's this whole distressing dynamic going on. You have an idea. You see Babble as yours, and see no reason to consult with Babblers. You present the idea as a done deal. Babblers get upset and leave in droves. Babblers feel hurt and betrayed and angry. You may well feel resentful, because they are being obstructive to your purposes. Even after a compromise is reached, hurt lingers on each side. Like in a bad marriage. Or at least that's how it seems to me. I could be wrong.
>
> Until this dynamic changes, this would just be yet another time this scenario plays out.
>
> I'm weary of the whole cycle. While I think this is a reasonable compromise ... as long as your attitude towards Babblers remains the same, this will be just one in a long stream of these experiences.
>
> DinahI started out adding buttons that just linked to the Psycho-Babble Facebook page and @psycho_babel on Twitter. But then I saw these buttons and thought they'd be more effective. In retrospect, I switched buttons and moved ahead too quickly, and I apologize for that.
At the same time, Babblers got upset and left pretty quickly, too. Why do you say the opt-out list became useless? It helped others, just as it helped me, to know the preferences of posters. And what made you think it was a done deal? There isn't much here that isn't open to revision.
I'm also weary. There was (and still is) a lot of anxiety to address and a lot of information to provide. I've really appreciated the help of those of you who are already familiar with Facebook and Twitter.
I see the cycle of understanding and misunderstanding as to some extent inevitable in any partnership. It can be frustrating at times for all of us, and how much we can change each other is limited.
For me, the benefits outweigh the frustrations. I feel good seeing posters supporting and educating each other. I learn a lot about people and groups (and myself). I feel honored by your trust.
Posters can benefit from belonging to a community in which others help them and they help others. But they may feel frustrated, too. There are tradeoffs here. It's open, but that means it's less private. It's inclusive, but that means bullies can join (and rejoin after blocks). I try to keep it civil, but that means having rules, and I and they are both imperfect. I introduce innovations, but that means changes to adjust to and kinks to work out. It may not be a good fit for some of you. But if you're willing to accept the tradeoffs, I welcome the opportunity to continue to work with you here.
Can we remain patient with each other and try to work out our differences? If so, we can keep this a supportive and educational and vibrant community. I'm committed to doing my best to understand your needs and concerns and to explain mine. Anybody else?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2009, at 14:24:24
In reply to Re: another cycle, posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 14:13:19
You know I am always open to rapprochement, not just with you, but in general.
Will you be willing to commit to bring these things up on board before doing them? This could have all turned out so differently if you'd have just talked about it first. Part of the reaction was just seeing the links there with no warning, no explanation, no nothing. The same compromise could have been reached without all the distress.
When I asked that you show us the same respect we should ideally show you, that's part of what I meant. That you explain instead of having us try to guess. And that you try to listen to what we're actually saying. If we say you aren't hearing, could you stop and listen?
I admit that I wasn't always as prudent and reasonable as I would like to see myself as being. There are things that push my buttons big time, and this contained a lot of them. The topic of bullying is huge for me. As is respect. And expectations of you.
Are you saying that you found yourself upset that people jumped to the worst possible conclusions?
If we're willing to try to give you the benefit of the doubt, are you willing to commit to giving us information ahead of time, and listening to our concerns ahead of time?
If there's a bigger problem here than the most obvious, and I think maybe there is, isn't it important that both sides talk about what their expectations of each other might be?
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2009, at 14:30:30
In reply to Re: another cycle, posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 14:13:19
> In retrospect, I switched buttons and moved ahead too quickly, and I apologize for that.
Incidentally, you use this phrase a lot and it's part of what leads me to react quickly. I infer that you are planning a certain course, and that your only concern is not following it too quickly. And that whatever compromises you make now may not be seen as permanent, but just a step in moving more slowly.
It isn't moving too quickly that we need you to accept responsibility and express regret for.
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2009, at 14:34:32
In reply to Re: another cycle, posted by Dr. Bob on November 2, 2009, at 14:13:19
My middle school teachers didn't tell me that they didn't know who did things, but they did tell me that if I just didn't react, they'd leave me alone. It may be a true statement, but it never has managed to be helpful to me.
And partnerships don't have to have cycles like this. The partners can agree to rules of engagement. The behaviors that lead to these cycles, on both sides, is a choice. But it's not a choice that can be made unilaterally. It is an agreement, a mutual choice.
Posted by antigua3 on November 2, 2009, at 17:27:21
In reply to involuntary tweet / facebook options?, posted by floatingbridge on October 25, 2009, at 20:20:45
I'm sorry if this has already been asked, but I'm totally lost and will read all the posts, but right now my immediate concern is that I asked not to be twittered, tweeted or Facebooked, but those icons show up on the bottom of my posts. Does that mean my wish wasn't respected? If so, it's not clear how I fix that. Can someone help me?
antigua
Posted by Dinah on November 2, 2009, at 17:29:36
In reply to Re: involuntary tweet / facebook options?, posted by antigua3 on November 2, 2009, at 17:27:21
http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/settings.pl
You can opt out here now. And this one doesn't rely on a list.
Posted by antigua3 on November 2, 2009, at 17:38:54
In reply to Re: involuntary tweet / facebook options?, posted by Dinah on November 2, 2009, at 17:29:36
Thanks, they're gone now. But I'm annoyed that my previous request was not respected.
antigua
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