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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 114 to 138 of 163. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 22:44:28
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2005, at 17:08:25
>What do others think about gender differences here?
I have wondered about whether males might be more likely to compete / conflict with a perceived authority while females might be more likely to idealise.
I wonder if that tendancy would be reversed in a group with a female moderator (are their any non-consumer run forums with a female moderator?).
Posted by gardenergirl on July 23, 2005, at 0:50:09
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dr. Bob on July 22, 2005, at 17:08:25
I know that when a new poster shows up who is er, shall we say, on a different page than me...ahem...I tend to think of that poster as a man unless specifically told otherwise.
Hmmm, wonder what that means?
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2005, at 13:59:31
In reply to Re: sorry (nm) » Dr. Bob, posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 22:01:39
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2005, at 14:01:04
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by alexandra_k on July 22, 2005, at 22:44:28
> I wonder if that tendancy would be reversed in a group with a female moderator (are their any non-consumer run forums with a female moderator?).
Would it need to be a non-consumer? How about female consumer deputy moderator? :-)
Bob
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 15:14:43
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dr. Bob on July 23, 2005, at 14:01:04
What would be the feminine variation?
I'm not sure it's as much an issue for a deputy, since there is little discretion available to deputies. There is no real room for subtlety, unless you are out of town for a while.
I'm wondering at so little comment, since I know it was discussed quite often. But perhaps that was among my friends that are no longer active at Babble.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 16:12:39
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 15:14:43
I'm trying to remember my dogs. There was definitely alpha b*tch behavior. But that is a particular b*tch's behavior toward everyone. She would dominate males and females.
While the behavior was much more gender linked in the males. Even the gentlest males (unless neutered young) behaved differently towards males than females. Some were excessively submissive toward other males. Usually there was posturing and dominance challenges, no matter how short lived.
Anyone familiar with the behavior patterns in primates?
Does the fact that a female was responsible for raising children of both sexes change the dynamic?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 16:33:52
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 16:12:39
I think dogs and chickens and horses etc are a bit different because of the pecking order in packs. I think... There is meant to be the most conflict between a member and the member that is the next highest in the order as they challenge them for their place.
I'm not sure that it is quite the same with people...
> Anyone familiar with the behavior patterns in primates?Not really. You could probably do a google...
> Does the fact that a female was responsible for raising children of both sexes change the dynamic?Might do.
Sibling rivalry might be interesting...What do you think about gender differences and conflict, Dinah? I'm not sure that you get a lot of conflict directed your way specifically. Gender differences?
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 16:52:45
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 16:33:52
I'm not sure what you mean?
I don't get much conflict directed at me from other posters for being deputy? Or from other posters as a poster?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 17:09:34
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 16:52:45
> I don't get much conflict directed at me from other posters for being deputy? Or from other posters as a poster?
Oh. I had thought both - but I also get that you get more from the former than the latter.
I mean... You do get into some conflicts in virtue of the deputy thing - right?
If thats right then what do you think about gender differences? More likely to be male or female? Is the nature of the conflict a bit different?
I also think that you don't get half of what Dr Bob does. Thats why I wondered if any female clinicians had boards. I mean, there is Doc John and Dr Bob and conflict seems to be handled a lot differently on the different boards. Not sure if there are consistent gender differences... But if there were then it would be interesting to see whether it was the same / reversed / just different on a board with a female moderator.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 17:09:34
No I don't nearly get as much as Dr. Bob because the roles are different. I reminded him of that above.
The difference would be in comparing Mark and I, not Dr. Bob and I. But the deputy role is so limited, that I don't think there's a chance to study it that well.
I'm not sure I agree though, that humans aren't pack animals like dogs. I certainly have seen the same behaviors. Dogs are just less subtle about it.
Dr. Bob is most likely a self aware individual. While I may look up a book or two and see if I can get hints, I imagine once the prospect comes to his attention, he can monitor himself if he's interested in the idea. As an unneutered male, I'm quite certain that he has at least occasionally experienced the behavior commonly known as p*ssing contests with other males. And he is likely aware of the feelings associated with that behavior. He's probably also aware of protective feelings towards females and what that feels like. There is a difference in the internet, in that the attractiveness of the female isn't readily apparent. Only he can be aware of any feelings he has.
As far as not recognizing feminine aggression. Hmmm.... I'm not sure whether he does or not. But also, it may not fall within the civility guidelines as well, because it is usually not overtly uncivil. So even if he recognizes it, he may not act on it.
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:09:14
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
Hmmm... I seem to be falling of the trap today of thinking in abstract terms. Which may not be terribly thoughtful of me on a per-person basis.
Certainly gender differences are not universal and not displayed in the same way by all members of a particular sex. I'm more than well aware of that, since my husband and I always joke about our role reversal.
Dr. Bob, even though an unneutered male, may not have engaged in p*ssing contests, and may have no idea what it feels like. Because certainly not all men do. And not all women display aggression in an indirect and overtly civil manner. And certainly not all, or even most, men display aggression in an overt and uncivil manner.
There, I've taken back as much as I could of what I said. Which leaves me with nothing to ask Dr. Bob about gender differences. :)
If he thinks it's worth thinking about he can. Or he can totally dismiss it as it may be well worth dismissing.
Posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:13:42
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
I don't think there would be many gender differences. Is that just incredibility naive of me? :-) Maybe the differences come from other people, who interact differently with male/female administrators.
Maybe Dr. Bob should change his name to Dr. Ann or something to see if people treat him differently. ;-)
Deneb
Posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:17:57
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:13:42
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:19:21
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
> No I don't nearly get as much as Dr. Bob because the roles are different. I reminded him of that above.
Yes.
> The difference would be in comparing Mark and I, not Dr. Bob and I.Yes, that seems fair. Though I think you post more actively than Mark.
>But the deputy role is so limited, that I don't think there's a chance to study it that well.
Yeah. Thats why I was interested in whether there might be a board out there moderated by a female...
> I'm not sure I agree though, that humans aren't pack animals like dogs. I certainly have seen the same behaviors. Dogs are just less subtle about it.Well, we are social animals like dogs are, yeah. But there are all sorts of other dissimilarities (pair bonds, care of infants etc) and a big enough difference in degree can amount to a difference in kind...
There are hierarchies sometimes. When the accountants required departments to rank peoples positions in order of importance, for example ;-)
>I'm quite certain that he has at least occasionally experienced the behavior commonly known as p*ssing contests with other males. And he is likely aware of the feelings associated with that behavior.Maybe its a little like the role triangle thingimie that we were talking about over on social. (I haven't checked the thread yet..) But there you have roles that it is only so easy to get caught up in. So when you start to get those feelings then that probably indicates that it is only too easy to slip into playing out one of those roles. Whether the situation arises due to transference or countertransference first. Well.. Who knows?
>He's probably also aware of protective feelings towards females and what that feels like. There is a difference in the internet, in that the attractiveness of the female isn't readily apparent. Only he can be aware of any feelings he has.
Yeah. But then he doesn't have to worry about getting thumped by someone either. And idealisation can result in conflict too when the person doesn't live up to the ideal and gets really mad...
> As far as not recognizing feminine aggression. Hmmm.... I'm not sure whether he does or not. But also, it may not fall within the civility guidelines as well, because it is usually not overtly uncivil. So even if he recognizes it, he may not act on it.So females might be better at expressing uncivil thoughts in a way that doesn't really breech the civility guidelines?
I think I've seen females lash out about as much as males (though maybe I'm wrong there). I just thought it might have more to do with feeling like one has been let down rather than feeling like one has to prove something...
But I think I'm just making this up as I go along...
I don't know how you would check.
Compare lots of case studies???
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:29:56
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 18:19:21
> And idealisation can result in conflict too when the person doesn't live up to the ideal and gets really mad...
>
> I just thought it might have more to do with feeling like one has been let down rather than feeling like one has to prove something...Got anyone in particular in mind? :)
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:36:58
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 18:13:42
Quite likely there are none at all.
It's dangerous to read first year psychology books. :)
I've been part of other forums moderated by women, but with only or mostly women posters. I think they wouldn't be comparable, even if you assumed there just might possibly be gender differences.
Posted by gabbii on July 23, 2005, at 18:51:58
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 17:48:24
I've always thought humans were pack animals, sometimes less subtle than dogs, less rigid, but sometimes more obvious. I guess I'm not listening well enough because I thought just about everyone felt that way.
strange fruit
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:35:18
In reply to Re: gender differences, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 18:29:56
> Got anyone in particular in mind? :)i thought that might be one of the main reasons behind females feeling pissed off at bob.
thats what we were talking about... gender differences.i have been thinking about whether i idealise him because i try not to. maybe its a process thing that you kind of do and become aware of sometimes and it really isn't an issue at other times. like how insight isn't all or none there or not there rather there are little insights along the way. maybe idealisation is a little like that too. i guess i do it sometimes though i try not to...
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 19:35:18
Is it possible to partially idealize someone? Idealize aspects, perhaps, but not the whole person? I'm not sure that's a gender difference though. I see a lot of men where idealization may be at play.
I was really interested in the top down gender perspective. Whether Dr. Bob saw himself as an alpha male. Whether he thought the role of alpha male may play a part in his perception of interactions with members. I suppose that's impossible to conceptualize without also viewing the bottom up feelings of members that might influence his responses.
Perhaps I feel more comfortable questioning Dr. Bob's responses, because of civility considerations.
But I'm trying to be PC, which means denying the existence of gender differences, much less alpha males. :)
(P.S. I did examine my own self for signs of alpha b*tch. My dogs certainly don't think of me as having any such signs. And I always think of myself more as a submissive spaniel than a dominant guard dog. I see signs of that in my posting style, which tends to contain a lot of qualifiers and apologies. But I'm not sure how accurately I can assess myself.)
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:16:44
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
> Is it possible to partially idealize someone? Idealize aspects, perhaps, but not the whole person?
I don't see why not. I used to think idealisation was fairly much how one saw / ones attitude towards that whole person - probably because thats how I saw the concepts presented. But now I think that that is probably a bit crude. I don't see why you can't have a fairly realistic assessment / expectations most of the time - but still idealise some aspects some of the time. Especially when one is feeling fragile.
>I'm not sure that's a gender difference though. I see a lot of men where idealization may be at play.
Yeah. I don't know whether it is a gender difference. I was thinking that maybe females were more prone to it than males - but maybe thats just wrong.
> I was really interested in the top down gender perspective. Whether Dr. Bob saw himself as an alpha male.What do you mean by 'alpha male'? What sorts of thoughts, perceptions, behaviours would you expect from someone who thought they were 'alpha male'?
>Whether he thought the role of alpha male may play a part in his perception of interactions with members.
Do you mean whether he felt like he had to defend himself against posters he perceives as threatening his authority?
>I suppose that's impossible to conceptualize without also viewing the bottom up feelings of members that might influence his responses.
Thats what I meant when I said that even if he did become aware of feeling the urge to defend himself or partake in a 'pissing contest' it is hard to know whether that occurs to him BEFORE or AFTER someone has said something to indicate that that is what they are wishing to do... Which comes first, the transference or the counter-transference, the chicken or the egg??
> Perhaps I feel more comfortable questioning Dr. Bob's responses, because of civility considerations.Yep.
> But I'm trying to be PC, which means denying the existence of gender differences, much less alpha males. :)There are gender differences, that is a fact. Its just the reasons for the gender differences (nature nurture) and the interpretation of the significance of those differences that can be a little unPC.
But it is hard to talk of 'gender differences' without making generalisations... And there are always going to be exceptions. But one can talk about 'tendancies'...
I'm not sure about whether there are characteristic gender differences that are apparant on the boards. I dunno.
> (P.S. I did examine my own self for signs of alpha b*tch.What are some 'alpha bitch' thoughts, perceptions, behaviours?
>My dogs certainly don't think of me as having any such signs.
?? But they don't challenge your authority do they? E.g., growling, being possessive with food, not wanting to lie down in front of you, trying to stand over you. If they thought there was a chance of beating you then the strongest would attempt to challenge...
>And I always think of myself more as a submissive spaniel than a dominant guard dog. I see signs of that in my posting style, which tends to contain a lot of qualifiers and apologies. But I'm not sure how accurately I can assess myself.)
I'm not sure...
Dogs can be quite different to people...
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:32:47
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:16:44
Actually, my few dominant dogs did challenge my authority that directly. And didn't lose. And my lack of dominance has caused me some significant difficulties at work.
I'm not sure I feel quite so comfortable discussing Dr. Bob's character that I can be totally frank about the alpha male characteristics. :)
I tried a few times, but it just seemed a bit intrusive.
Posted by Deneb on July 23, 2005, at 20:48:25
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 19:46:55
I don't idealize Dr. Bob at all...I wonder what that says about me?
I mostly think of him as my equal, but with lots more knowledge. Sometimes I think he *IS* me...which I think is the ultimate in projection! LOL
Deneb
Posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:52:51
In reply to Re: gender differences » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:32:47
I'm getting a bit lost with the dog thing... Is alpha male supposed to be similar to alpha bitch? If so then do you want to talk about alpha bitch characteristics a little more then???
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:55:36
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by gabbii on July 23, 2005, at 18:51:58
:-)
I tend to try to think of dogs as people, so I'm never quite sure if my observations are unbiased.
But I always found it entertaining to watch human interaction and see similarities to my dogs, and vice versa.
Except that as a group, I tend to like dogs better.
(blush)
Posted by Dinah on July 23, 2005, at 20:58:12
In reply to Re: gender differences » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on July 23, 2005, at 20:52:51
Because you have that deadline.
But I'll try to think of the differences I've observed between alpha males and alpha b*tches for after Friday.
Although I admittedly have more familiarity with one than the other, but more amused observations about the other.
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