![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 175 to 199 of 536. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
> > We can choose how to view this...
> I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
You have the choice, we all do.
I don't care *what* people choose.
I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
I am trying to show you that there are options.>My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways.
I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.
Your issue.
But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this. Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.I just wish people weren't so upset about this...
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 20:42:47
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
Those are nice wishes but are not part of my reality... I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best. Still I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..I own my feelings I ate, slept good and loled a lot today...I am not falling on a sword over this but that is because I feel my stand on this is based on a higher principle than myself and what I want or wish but what I feel is right..Dr Bob WILL do whatever he wants and people will like it and people won't and you will see some go and some stay thats just life. The older I get the more I understand authority is not always right...and malice doesnt need to exist...if something is wrong it just is...That said I wish you well as always but I also believe you will never find the not botheredness you seek.
> > > We can choose how to view this...
>
> > I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
>
> I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
>
> You have the choice, we all do.
> I don't care *what* people choose.
> I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
> I am trying to show you that there are options.
>
> >My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
>
> Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways.
>
> I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
>
> I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
>
> But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.
>
> Your issue.
> But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
> I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this. Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.
>
> I just wish people weren't so upset about this...
>
>
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 20:51:26
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
> > > We can choose how to view this...
>
> > I don't need someone to show me how to choose.
>
> I am not trying to tell you or show you *how* to choose, I am trying to tell you or show you that it is in fact a matter of choice.
>
Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
> You have the choice, we all do.
> I don't care *what* people choose.
> I care how people feel as a consequence of their choice.
> I am trying to show you that there are options.
>
Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
> >My feelings are not hurt, I'm angry, and I'm disappointed.
>
> Hmm. I would consider anger and disappointment to be painful feelings. Feelings that are unpleasant anyways. Yes but to me quite different than hurt.>
> I don't care whether people want small boards or not. I don't care whether there are small boards or not.
>
> I do care about how people feel about whether small boards happen or not.
>
> But you choose to feel a certain way as a result of the way you choose to view small boards.There are a few things in life I get angry about.
Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.
Anger can be constructive and, as long as I still see people as individuals and do not direct my anger where it's not warranted
I have no problem with it, so perhaps you shouldn't be upset about my feelings.> But I wish people weren't so upset / hurt / disappointed / whatever about this.
> I wish people wouldn't question Dr Bob's motives about this.Dinah explained quite well some reasons he might have for this that were not innately negative, but a different way of viewing Babble. I agreed with her.
Because I can see things both ways. I can see how one could be well intentioned and want small boards. I can see how one could be well intentioned and not want small boards.
And??
> I just wish people weren't so upset about this...Well, I'm not going to stop being upset about things I think are potentially hurtful, and I'm not going to choose to not see it as potentially hurtful in order to ease into a tepid congeniality.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:15:20
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Fallen4MyT on January 31, 2005, at 20:42:47
> I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best.
Oh, I never meant to imply that! I just meant that I believe that Bob is well intentioned.
As are we all.
That makes it harder to be mad at him.
Not impossible, but harder.>I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..
Oh, I'll be ok. I just care about how you guys feel and don't like to see people upset. But I won't lose sleep over it, okay?
No hard feelings.
?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:36:41
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 20:51:26
> Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
Well it could be *just obvious* that one way of viewing it is the *right* way.
> Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
You don't agree that there are options?
You don't agree that there are different ways of seeing small boards?
That was what I was saying.I genuinely apologise that that did sound condescending. I see that now that you point it out.
> There are a few things in life I get angry about. Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.But it is a choice to see small boards as *cliquish* and *elite*.
I would feel so very mad at Dr Bob if I thought that the truth of the situation was that small boards are *cliquish* and *elite* and yet he wanted them anyway. His intentions must be very evil indeed...
If I thought the truth of the situation was that small boards were *cliquish* and *elite* then perhaps I would be mad at him for his stupidity in refusing to recognise that fact.
But he has an alternative way of seeing small boards. He does not see them as *cliquish* and *elite*.
There are alternative ways to view them.
And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.
I don't mind that you prefer not to have them.
I think not wanting something to happen that has the potential to produce hurt feelings in others is a good and noble reason (not that you need my approval of course).Some people may feel envious that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
But are those feelings of envy something that follows from small boards or something that follows from *judging* some small boards to be better than another?
We choose to feel hurt...
Posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 22:42:00
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:36:41
> > Of course it's a matter of choice, what else would it be?
>
> Well it could be *just obvious* that one way of viewing it is the *right* way.Oh, that didn't even enter my head actually!
If I ever think that, and I have, I will say
"That's just wrong!" And of course that's when I know I have no decent argument : )
>
> > Again, when you phrase it like that "I'm trying to show you" it sounds to me as if you feel you are somehow gifted with something that I am unable to see, I'm afraid in this instance that's just not the case. I hear what you are saying, I don't agree with it.
>
> You don't agree that there are options?
Well, yeah.. but no more than in any situation.
> You don't agree that there are different ways of seeing small boards?Yes, but I think we're looking at different issues about the boards actually.
> That was what I was saying.
>
> I genuinely apologise that that did sound condescending. I see that now that you point it out.Tis why I pointed it out, I didn't really think that was "you"
>
> > There are a few things in life I get angry about. Cliquisheness/elitism or any of it's variances one of them.
>
> But it is a choice to see small boards as *cliquish* and *elite*.
>
I believe that having private conversations where everyone is not included is cliquish.
Yes it's my choice, but if it is, so is my belief that it's wrong to mock handicapped people.
> I would feel so very mad at Dr Bob if I thought that the truth of the situation was that small boards are *cliquish* and *elite* and yet he wanted them anyway. His intentions must be very evil indeed...It's not that clear cut, some people don't believe it is cliquish, or promotes cliquishness.
My Gym teachers thought there was nothing wrong with having someone pick teams for basketball,
it would have been silly to call them evil.
Many laws have been changed that now we now can't believe ever existed because of their injustice, and I don't believe they were implemented because of innate evil. Much harm can be done out of thoughtlessness though, or inexperience in a certain area.
> If I thought the truth of the situation was that small boards were *cliquish* and *elite* then perhaps I would be mad at him for his stupidity in refusing to recognise that fact.
>
Perhaps he hasn't had enough experience on the outside, or with group dynamics, sometimes things have to be seen or felt to be understood.
> But he has an alternative way of seeing small boards. He does not see them as *cliquish* and *elite*.
>
> There are alternative ways to view them.Yes, and he does, as I do, it works both ways.
>
> And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.No, actually I can agree to disagree on just about any topic but not where it involves implementing something that I believe is going to hurt people.
> I don't mind that you prefer not to have them.
> I think not wanting something to happen that has the potential to produce hurt feelings in others is a good and noble reason (not that you need my approval of course).
>
> Some people may feel envious that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
>
> Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
>
> But are those feelings of envy something that follows from small boards or something that follows from *judging* some small boards to be better than another?I in complete honesty have no idea where the Idea of envying the better board came from. I don't think that's at all the issue Alexandra,
actually it almost sounds funny to me. If I missed it on a thread please feel free to point it out. Or could someone please tell me if that is their issue?
> We choose to feel hurt...That's not something I agree with as a general statement. It's currently popular, but not a belief I ascribe to.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 23:40:45
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 22:42:00
> I believe that having private conversations where everyone is not included is cliquish.
> Yes it's my choice, but if it is, so is my belief that it's wrong to mock handicapped people.Ok. There I would say 'why is it wrong to mock handicapped people' and we would probably agree that it is hurtful. And so here I guess your point is that the former is hurtful too...
But I would say that some good could come of small boards (not that it *will* come - but that it *might possibly*) for all the reasons that Dr Bob has given. Whereas I cannot see what good could come of mocking handicapped people.
> Perhaps he hasn't had enough experience on the outside, or with group dynamics, sometimes things have to be seen or felt to be understood.
Maybe he doesn't get how hurt people are likely to be...
> Yes, and he does, as I do, it works both ways.
Yes.
> > And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.
> No, actually I can agree to disagree on just about any topic but not where it involves implementing something that I believe is going to hurt people.Not even for a greater good? I would say that Dr Bob thinks more good than harm would be likely to come from this or he wouldn't want to implement the idea. Maybe he is wrong, but I have faith that he is well intentioned (as are we all...).
Ok, I retract 'envy' (apologies) and replace it with 'hurt' as follows:
> > Some people may feel hurt that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
> > Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.
> > But are those feelings of hurt something that follows from small boards or something that follows from...And now I need to alter the ending...
... Hmm. You have a good point.
> We choose to feel hurt...
> That's not something I agree with as a general statement. It's currently popular, but not a belief I ascribe to.
Yeah. I am not sure what I think there.
So some people will most probably feel excluded and hurt. They will want to be able to join one of the groups but they will be prevented.
But is there a possible greater good?
Will some people stay on Babble who otherwise would leave?
Will some people feel more supported and more understood?Hard to weigh...
I haven't made my mind up either way...
PS. Ever thought of taking up philosophy :-)
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 0:49:24
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » Fallen4MyT, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 21:15:20
Perfect lol exactly....we are on the same wave lengh again...we will all be fine...and just don;t agree. I think its sweet that you care how we feel but you cannot take our feelings on for your own sake...always friends :) Anyone 18 hours away...well...hehe.....For the record though I do not hate Bob he is IMO not helping and maybe the feelings issue should be best addressed to him is all.
HUGS> > I do not share in the Bob is right mentality and Bob knows best.
>
> Oh, I never meant to imply that! I just meant that I believe that Bob is well intentioned.
>
> As are we all.
> That makes it harder to be mad at him.
> Not impossible, but harder.
>
> >I wish you could somehow find peace in our upsetness we are OK with it..
>
> Oh, I'll be ok. I just care about how you guys feel and don't like to see people upset. But I won't lose sleep over it, okay?
>
> No hard feelings.
> ?
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2005, at 2:17:03
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Gabbix2 on January 31, 2005, at 19:22:28
> Those of us who travel the psych circuit have been shut out from enough rooms, enough private conversations, and have been whispered about too much.
>
> Gabbix2I think that's a lot of it.
If people know what it's like to be shut out, that may be the last thing they'd want to do to someone else.
Which is of course being empathic.
But I think it's OK if they think about themselves, too. And want a room to stay cozy, for example, if that's the way they like it.
==
> This is a case where I will be like Rosa Parks and stand up for all of those who want a bus seat......
>
> Fallen4MyTWhat if there are 100?
--
> I really wish Dr. Bob could see Babble as a community, not a restaurant, not an accomodation.
Sorry, can you explain again what the difference would be?
> I might see a group of people who seem funny or warm, or who are carrying on a really fun conversations about mangoes. But when I went to try to join in, I'd be hit with an invisible wall that said "Sorry, these people won't let you in, but you're welcome to join this other group over here." How on earth is that equal? Or inviting? How does it make Babble seem like a nice place?
>
> Dinah1. Some people try to join in now and hit an invisible wall. And what recourse do they have?
2. It would be equal opportunity. I might see a group of people sharing a mango, and I might think it would be nice if I could get one, too.
--
> Why on earth would I envy people who were involved in something I find so repugnant? ... it's a matter of rudeness and elitism.
Sorry, but please be sensitive to the feelings of others and don't post anything that could lead them to feel accused or put down, thanks.
> it insinuates that there is an unruly mass to get away from.
>
> Gabbix2Masses (crowds, mobs, large groups) *do* tend to be unruly. That's the whole thing.
Which is another point, some people might prefer to provide support in a more concentrated way. And I think that would be fine...
Bob
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2005, at 2:17:03
> > I really wish Dr. Bob could see Babble as a community, not a restaurant, not an accomodation.
>
> Sorry, can you explain again what the difference would be?
>
No, I fear I can't. I've explained it in the best words I have, and if you don't understand it, I have no more words to offer you to explain in a way you can hear.But I tell you what. This has happened before. I have tried till my face was blue to explain something so you could understand, with no luck whatsoever. Then someone you respect, Dr. Kali Munro, said the same thing once, and voila! you understood. Perhaps if you ask someone you respect, like Dr. Munro, what the difference is between an accomodation and a community, and the difference between public private "parties" in an accomodation and a community, they'd be able to understand it in a way you can hear.
> > I might see a group of people who seem funny or warm, or who are carrying on a really fun conversations about mangoes. But when I went to try to join in, I'd be hit with an invisible wall that said "Sorry, these people won't let you in, but you're welcome to join this other group over here." How on earth is that equal? Or inviting? How does it make Babble seem like a nice place?
> >
> > Dinah
>
> 1. Some people try to join in now and hit an invisible wall. And what recourse do they have?
>
> 2. It would be equal opportunity. I might see a group of people sharing a mango, and I might think it would be nice if I could get one, too.
>
> --
>
I don't understand this *at all* or what on earth it has to do with restrictions. People can only buy a mango if there's a store that will only sell to certain people? Huh?Why would they find a wall now? How would starting their own mango conversation be equivilant to joining in the one that is currently going on? What makes you think that strangers aren't welcome in a mango conversation? One of my fondest Babble memories is from meeting new people through the magic of mangoes.
What does any of that have to do with the problem of being private in public? There are currently the equivilant of small rooms right now. Private emails, Yahoo conferences, phone calls. But they aren't done in public. Can you truly not understand the concept? Did your mother not teach you this? Your school? My son understands this. It doesn't seem like a stretch goal for you. Again, if I can't explain it properly, perhaps you could find someone you respect who can manage to do so. I wouldn't wish to offer my son's teachers, or support staff, or fellow elementary school students to come explain it to you publicly for reasons of my own privacy. But if you think you could respect any one of them, I can give one of his teachers, or counselors, or fellow elementary school students your email address and perhaps they could find better words to explain.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:42
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:50:39
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this..., posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 20:17:27
Ahhh. CBT.
I hate it.
While I can see the value of reframing issues sometimes, I can't see the value of reframing them always. Sometimes issues shouldn't be reframed. A lot of injustice happens when people reframe things that shouldn't be reframed.
And sometimes, when there is no choice, and you might as well accept something or leave, there is *still* more than one way to reframe something. I don't think reframing it in such a way as to violate your core values is a viable option.
And choosing to be hurt seems to me like the old sticks and stones retort. It sounds nice. It makes the CBT'ers tails' wag. But I think it sounds nicer than it sounds true.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:55:35
In reply to Re: I think I understand why people don't like this... » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:50:39
I think my logic about walls with no doors is along the lines that there are already walls with no doors. Emails, Open (which is of course Open to all, but not everyone is there at any given time and it's not archived), Yahoo conferences. They're all things we do when we wish to be private.
They're all very nice ways of being private, because they *are* private.
Restrictions are a not very nice way of being private, because they're not private.
I still just don't understand why Dr. Bob is so wedded to the idea of restrictions. I can come up with lots of nice pleasant reasons for his motives in a lot of aspects to this, but I'm at a loss when it comes to his attachments to restrictions. To exclusion. It's even harder to comprehend when he mixes a wedding to the idea of exclusion to a wedding of making the exlusion area public.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:58:05
In reply to Oops. above of course for Dr. Bob (nm), posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:42
That's why I had to step away from the computer for a bit. :)
I think learning to adjust to Dr. Bob is such a reliable exercise in relationships that CBT therapists ought to assign it as part of therapy. ;)
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 7:39:48
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
When I re-read that post, I don't think my smile came through clearly enough. An exasperated smile, a frustrated smile, perhaps a hurt smile, but a smile nevertheless.
It sounded more combative than I feel. I feel more resigned, exasperated, frustrated, and hurt. There isn't much combat left in me.
As my therapist said the other day (restated in some of my favorite words for this type of situation), you have many fine and useful qualities, Dr. Bob.
Posted by broken on February 1, 2005, at 8:13:51
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:41:12
As a newb here, I full understand Dr. Bob's allusion to the invisible walls. With the exception of a certain number of people, this "community" is difficult to become a part of.
I don't personally feel that trading in the invisible walls for visible ones solves that problem at all. I also dont see any "recourse" available in having the community divided up into smaller cliques.
I was never a "cool kid" in school. I live in the south, and while my classmates were enjoying the "country music revolution" I was listening to Iron Maiden. They wore their cowboy hats, big belt buckles, I wore my hair long and a leather jacket. Did that scar me somehow? No, it gave me my sense of individuality. Did it contribute to a social anxiety? Probably so.
I didnt have to be a "cool kid" in the "in crowd" 18 years ago, and I don't have to be a cool adult in the "best private room" now. However, I fail to see how this benefits alot of the people both new and old here now from a mental health point of view.
Regards
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:28:42
In reply to Re: why people don't like this » Dinah, posted by broken on February 1, 2005, at 8:13:51
No one understands better than I do the difficulties in fitting in. I do have social anxiety. I have been on the outside my entire life. My husband brings my son to birthday parties because trying to socialize is such an ordeal for me.
I spent some time on the board with very little interaction at all. Mair was a dear and welcomed me - and there were a few others, but for the most part I had trouble with it. My posts seemed to end a thread. For that matter, I still have trouble joining in the wonderful lighthearted threads because my mind is just too linear.
I just don't see how restrictions could help anything. If you or someone who doesn't feel a part of Babble could explain how restrictions could help anything, I'd be willing to listen. I can't see how locking people out or locking people in, whichever way you want to see it, solves anything at all.
Posted by broken on February 1, 2005, at 8:38:48
In reply to Re: why people don't like this » broken, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:28:42
> No one understands better than I do the difficulties in fitting in. I do have social anxiety. I have been on the outside my entire life. My husband brings my son to birthday parties because trying to socialize is such an ordeal for me.
>
> I spent some time on the board with very little interaction at all. Mair was a dear and welcomed me - and there were a few others, but for the most part I had trouble with it. My posts seemed to end a thread. For that matter, I still have trouble joining in the wonderful lighthearted threads because my mind is just too linear.
>
> I just don't see how restrictions could help anything. If you or someone who doesn't feel a part of Babble could explain how restrictions could help anything, I'd be willing to listen. I can't see how locking people out or locking people in, whichever way you want to see it, solves anything at all.I have to chuckle about this. First of all, my newbness shows in that the post should have been directed towards Dr Bob, not you Dinah. Sorry for the mistake.
As for your question about solving anything, I thought my post pretty much stated that I agree with you. As I said in the previous post, "I don't personally feel that trading in the invisible walls for visible ones solves that problem at all."Take care
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:44:56
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by broken on February 1, 2005, at 8:38:48
Broken, it just takes time, work, and perseverence. Just like any other relationship.
There are some posters who sweep into Babble and there is love at first sight. Everyone wants to be their best friend. For the rest of us, it takes time and work and perseverence. Giving other people the chance to get to know us. Taking the time to get to know them and respond to them as individuals. The same thing will happen in return.
It's like that with all relationships don't you think? Magic happens very rarely for most of us. Often for a few of us. But hard work usually pays off over an extended period of time.
Not terribly exciting, but I'm a relationship pragmatist - even when the relationship is with a board rather than a person.
Posted by Jai Narayan on February 1, 2005, at 9:16:55
In reply to Re: why people don't like this » broken, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 8:28:42
I spent some time on the board with very little interaction at all. Mair was a dear and welcomed me - and there were a few others, but for the most part I had trouble with it. My posts seemed to end a thread. For that matter, I still have trouble joining in the wonderful lighthearted threads because my mind is just too linear.
**I have a hard time joining the lighthearted posts as well. I just don't seem to be as clever....I sure enjoy reading them.
I just don't see how restrictions could help anything. If you or someone who doesn't feel a part of Babble could explain how restrictions could help anything, I'd be willing to listen. I can't see how locking people out or locking people in, whichever way you want to see it, solves anything at all.
**why do I keep seeing myself on the outside, being one of the people locked out?
I guess if anyone was locked out....I would feel locked out...I thought the blocking would stop anyone who was offensive.
so who would decide who was in or out?
Angel Gabriel?
the Key master?
this is beginning to sound like the Matrix....
people slipping between programs.
Programs getting out of control.
Is Dr. Bob the guy who controls the train? The station master who kept Neo stuck in a station he had no power to escape?
wow, I'm in this illusion way too deep.Is this a done deal?
we just have to roll with it?
Jai Narayan
Posted by partlycloudy on February 1, 2005, at 10:21:32
In reply to Dinah...I know what you mean..., posted by Jai Narayan on February 1, 2005, at 9:16:55
We haven't seen any evidence of change yet - and perhaps part of any process of change here is to get feedback like this. From the sound of your posts, Dinah, it's a "done deal". My opinion is that Dr Bob invites lively discussions like this for the ideas and solutions the discussion can inspire. Oh, and maybe to stir up some dust if the board has been too quiet??
And I, too, am an Outsider, from a long way back.
Posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 10:36:31
In reply to Re: Dinah...I know what you mean... » Jai Narayan, posted by partlycloudy on February 1, 2005, at 10:21:32
I suppose I hear it is a done deal in the tone of Dr. Bob's posts. I don't hear any give in them at all.
However, it's possible that I'm hearing wrong.
Perhaps Dr. Bob would like to let us in on how much of a done deal it is, and how much we're wasting our breath or not.
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 15:28:34
In reply to Re: I think I am still trying to understand... » Gabbix2, posted by alexandra_k on January 31, 2005, at 23:40:45
> Ok. There I would say 'why is it wrong to mock handicapped people' and we would probably agree that it is hurtful. And so here I guess your point is that the former is hurtful too...Yep, that's it, thanks, I have to work on my clarity.
> But I would say that some good could come of small boards (not that it *will* come - but that it *might possibly*) for all the reasons that Dr Bob has given.People already have that choice, why must it be risked under the auspices of Babble?
Whereas I cannot see what good could come of mocking handicapped people.No.
>
>
> Maybe he doesn't get how hurt people are likely to be...I think that's likely, I really do.
> > Yes, and he does, as I do, it works both ways.
>
> Yes.
>
> > > And that is a different issue from whether they should be implemented or not.
>
> > No, actually I can agree to disagree on just about any topic but not where it involves implementing something that I believe is going to hurt people.
>
> Not even for a greater good? I would say that Dr Bob thinks more good than harm would be likely to come from this or he wouldn't want to implement the idea. Maybe he is wrong, but I have faith that he is well intentioned (as are we all...).That would contradict Dr. Bobs previous and stated philosophies/actions, which was to protect the most sensitive at the risk of alienating the majority, an examply being the srict offensive language rules. And again, I can't see the greater good when the opportunity to have private conversations is already freely available.
>
> Ok, I retract 'envy' (apologies) and replace it with 'hurt' as follows:
>
> > > Some people may feel hurt that they cannot be part of one small board in particular.
> > > Sounds like that is what people are trying to prevent.I don't think it's one small board in particular. I really don't. I think it's a general feeling of exclusion, hurt that people need to seperate from the rest, it's an inference.
It's very natural to have a close group of friends, but it's rude to only associate with them when you are in public.
> > > But are those feelings of hurt something that follows from small boards or something that follows from...I'm not sure the deeper reasons need to be dealt with here, that's for therapy. I think babble should be easier on people than that babble is for people who are already working on enough things and should I believe be a place that is as comfortable as possible.
> But is there a possible greater good?No, I don't think so. If there is I think it's sacrificing the type of people who are sacrificed every day every where else in the world and that repulses me on a mental health board.
> Will some people stay on Babble who otherwise would leave?
> Will some people feel more supported and more understood?
>
> Hard to weigh...
>
> I haven't made my mind up either way...
>
> PS. Ever thought of taking up philosophy :-)Ha! That's funny. I took philosophy for half a semester, it drove me bats. I figure if you can get everyone to agree on one thing (namely a philosophy) then you have no need for a philosophy.. Now when people discuss philosophy that's generally when I go play with the dog. : )
Posted by Gabbix2 on February 1, 2005, at 15:46:24
In reply to Re: why people don't like this, posted by Dr. Bob on February 1, 2005, at 2:17:03
> If people know what it's like to be shut out, > But I think it's OK if they think about themselves, too. And want a room to stay cozy, for example, if that's the way they like it.
BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Then they can certainly do that, in their cozy room at home, and they can invite people over, and I won't stop them. However, if they want to put on their housecoat and slippers, and bring their two best friends, and park themselves in the middle of my living room and carry on a private conversation at my cocktail party then they can just help themselves to the almond cookies and special kool-aid punch I have on hand for just such boors.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on February 1, 2005, at 16:15:36
In reply to Fallen, posted by Dinah on February 1, 2005, at 6:55:35
Dinah all I know is I would gladly share my seat and fit 100 of the current users on the bus even if we had to sit on each others laps..I will sit on Brokens :) than shut the door in someones face..thats more to Dr Bob than you..You and I agree....I think like an old song I heard....when the stone men said "you see what you wanna see and hear what you wanna hear" is fitting for Dr Bob and his already made up mind.I won't be here when I have to shut a door on anyone's face not one person like or dislike them it is just not my style. And no Dr Bob I am not being snide it IS your site
> I think my logic about walls with no doors is along the lines that there are already walls with no doors. Emails, Open (which is of course Open to all, but not everyone is there at any given time and it's not archived), Yahoo conferences. They're all things we do when we wish to be private.
>
> They're all very nice ways of being private, because they *are* private.
>
> Restrictions are a not very nice way of being private, because they're not private.
>
> I still just don't understand why Dr. Bob is so wedded to the idea of restrictions. I can come up with lots of nice pleasant reasons for his motives in a lot of aspects to this, but I'm at a loss when it comes to his attachments to restrictions. To exclusion. It's even harder to comprehend when he mixes a wedding to the idea of exclusion to a wedding of making the exlusion area public.
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