![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 40. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
I haven't posted recently but my 26 yr old son attempted suicide a couple of days ago. To make it worse we weren't notified till last night around 5 PM that he was in the ICU. He survived though we wondered how after hearing he took over 20 exrta strength excedrin drank both 3 in one oil and penetrating oil oouch! They did an endoscopy an found (thank goodness) only mild inflammation of esophagus and stomach lining.
His Diag was schizo affect. and has been for nearly ten years. Taking 15 mg of Zyprexa and 100 mg Zoloft. After talking to him last night we discovered it sounded like suicidal ideations were
what pushed him over the edge. I think maybe discontinuation of Zoloft is the first thing that will help. Interestingly enough his ideations coincide with a switch from Prozac to Zoloft.
Your thoughts?
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 10:08:33
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
> I haven't posted recently but my 26 yr old son attempted suicide a couple of days ago. To make it worse we weren't notified till last night around 5 PM that he was in the ICU. He survived though we wondered how after hearing he took over 20 exrta strength excedrin drank both 3 in one oil and penetrating oil oouch! They did an endoscopy an found (thank goodness) only mild inflammation of esophagus and stomach lining.
>
> His Diag was schizo affect. and has been for nearly ten years. Taking 15 mg of Zyprexa and 100 mg Zoloft. After talking to him last night we discovered it sounded like suicidal ideations were
> what pushed him over the edge. I think maybe discontinuation of Zoloft is the first thing that will help. Interestingly enough his ideations coincide with a switch from Prozac to Zoloft.
> Your thoughts?I agree.
Zoloft is not the "mild" SSRI that some people characterize it to be. It seems to be particularly liable to produce akathisia. Besides that, every standard antidepressant has some liability to make depression worse instead of better.
There are two symptoms in particular that can transform a non-suicidal depression into a suicidal state:
1. Anxiety
2. AngerAkathisia can produce anxiety and an excruciating feeling of restlessness. People describe this as being like "crawling out of their skin."
Why was an antidepressant chosen? Which antidepressants have been tried so far?
- Scott
Posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 10:08:46
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
Just remembered this. He has been taking Zoloft as an anti anxiety med for several years, but he was hospitalized late this summer and was switched to Prozac. 2 months he got his regular PDOC to put him back on Zoloft. Too Bad!
Posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 10:11:54
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt » Danielj, posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 10:08:33
The Pdoc prescribed Zoloft for anxiety, there were also anger issues.
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 10:20:00
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt Addition, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 10:08:46
> Just remembered this. He has been taking Zoloft as an anti anxiety med for several years, but he was hospitalized late this summer and was switched to Prozac. 2 months he got his regular PDOC to put him back on Zoloft. Too Bad!
When something is working to treat a chronic or recurrent psychiatric condition, leave it alone.
Someone can take an antidepresant drug for years and elect to discontinue it with the expectation that it can be restarted if necessary with no loss of efficacy and without new side effects. Often, this is not the case. Exposure to a SSRI drug can ultimately produce resistance to that drug. However, one may choose another SSRI and recapture a therapeutic response to treatment.
I hope you and your son can work through this together. It is important for him to know that he has a biological illness and that a biological intervention can make it better or worse. The suicidal state was fabricated by a drug and was not his fault.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 10:27:10
In reply to Re:Reply to Scott, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 10:11:54
> The Pdoc prescribed Zoloft for anxiety, there were also anger issues.
Trileptal (oxcarbazepine) might make a good choice for the anger/aggression issues. It is not an antidepressant or anti-anxiety drug. It is an anticonvulsant mood-stabilizer and can work very, very well. Soon after Zoloft was released for market in 1997, it was believed that it was good for treating these psychobiological states.
- Scott
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2014, at 12:05:15
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
I'm sorry Scott has good info. I will bow out. Wanted to wish you my best to you and your Son. Phillipa
Posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2014, at 13:06:21
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
Daniel so sorry! Your heart must be just aching! Really sorry.
Depression by itself is a fairly strong risk of suicide. Add on to that the mysterious possibility that a medication could make the person feel worse instead of better, as Scott said, or a change in medications. All dangerous stuff.
I believe doctors switch meds too quickly and cause undue discomfort and risk for the patient. For example, well, I don't know how this switch was done, but if it had been me, it would have been a very careful cross-taper, not a direct overnight switch. The timeframe of the switch would take place over about a 2 to 4 week period. The LAST thing we want to do is destabilize things. A quick change can cause significant destabilization.
Where do you live? Ever been in tick territory? I get crazy looks and attacks whenever I say this, but it has to be said. If I didn't like you or want to help you, I would not say it. But I do want to help so I will say it. In my journeys thru both treatment resistant depression, some schizo stuff, suicidal, and lyme disease, I can share with you what both of my expert doctors shared with me.....patients of the description of your son should have Lyme at the top of the list as a suspect causing all the crap.
Some lyme patients do not present with any of the common symptoms of pain and stiffness and brain fog, but have just depression or just schizo stuff and anxiety-like stuff is common.....that doesn't respond real well to drugs.....that's the clue that is important and steers the thinking in a different direction. imo
Whatever the cause, it appears to me there are toxins of some kind that causing misfiring and messing up the whole mood center operations.
I do not feel comfortable commenting at this time on any particular med issues. The situation is too serious at the moment and I do not think interjecting ideas from strangers on the net is a sound way to go at the moment. The doctors have to call the shots right now. After things have stabilized, then things can open up and be more flexible in terms of ideas and treatments choices.
Only one suggestion. I will also author another thread on this very topic. Cholestyramine. Whatever the toxins are, they are most likely fat soluble, and can be cleaned out. If your son feels better after a few weeks of drinking this prescription powdered drink, then you know you are on to something that involves toxins and that the toxins are causing the symptoms. At that point next steps can be taken, but it makes no sense to jump ahead that far until first we see what happens.
Cholestyramine is a prescription intended to lower cholesterol and fat. It does not absorb in the body. It passes thru the gut and absorbs like sponge anything that is fat soluble, including suspected toxins which are mostly fat soluble. The toxins cannot be recirculated. Right now they are being recirculated. Toxins dumped in bile into the gut are then reabsorbed and poisoned all over again, round and round, over and over, accumulation continues, illness worsens, meds become less and less effective as they are overwhelmed.
Really sorry! I tried to kill myself. Three people I knew are gone due to suicide. So I know the pain. From both sides.
For now, just hang on, pray, Jesus can definitely help get things in the right direction if He is asked, but at the same time set the sites on trying to help stabilize things in the here-n-now, prepare to test some things just ahead around the corner. In my opinion, mine only, cholestyramine would be a fantastic next step to not only help figure out what the heck is going on, but to get him feeling better too.
Except for a minority of MDs who use this med for this purpose, or except for the minority of doctors who are experts in chronic conditions such as Lyme, FM, CFS, your doctors will probably give you a weird look. Your son has suicide, not cholesterol right? That really confuses some people. How in the world could a cholesterol reducing drink possibly help diagnose anything or improve mood? Well, it does. It is outside the box sort of stuff, real doctor stuff versus establishment doctor stuff, so if your docs are not very creative or open minded they will likely not jump with joy at your request.
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 10, 2014, at 13:39:30
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt, posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2014, at 13:06:21
I have a similar disorder, and I seriously recommend trileptal. I take 1200 mgs/day, along with 30/Abilify. Now and then, I'll take a low dose of Neurontin on top. I also do orthomolecular.
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 13:51:21
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt, posted by bleauberry on January 10, 2014, at 13:06:21
> Whatever the cause, it appears to me there are toxins of some kind that causing misfiring and messing up the whole mood center operations.
What toxins, specifically?
What are the clinical indicators described by Danielj that leads you to your conclusions regarding her son?
Can you cite any scientific literature demonstrating that the misfiring and messing up of the whole mood center operations are produced by the toxins you allude to?
I look forward to your thread on cholestyramine. I'm sure you will provide peer-reviewed scientific literature to corroborate the contents of your posts.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 13:57:11
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt, posted by Christ_empowered on January 10, 2014, at 13:39:30
> I have a similar disorder, and I seriously recommend trileptal.
That's a great idea.
Do you find that Trileptal reduces impulsivity or anger?
I would be interested to know what orthomolecular substances you are taking. I'll take a look on Alternative to see if you have already listed them.
Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 17:22:07
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
> I haven't posted recently but my 26 yr old son attempted suicide a couple of days ago. To make it worse we weren't notified till last night around 5 PM that he was in the ICU. He survived though we wondered how after hearing he took over 20 exrta strength excedrin drank both 3 in one oil and penetrating oil oouch! They did an endoscopy an found (thank goodness) only mild inflammation of esophagus and stomach lining.
>
> His Diag was schizo affect. and has been for nearly ten years. Taking 15 mg of Zyprexa and 100 mg Zoloft. After talking to him last night we discovered it sounded like suicidal ideations were
> what pushed him over the edge. I think maybe discontinuation of Zoloft is the first thing that will help. Interestingly enough his ideations coincide with a switch from Prozac to Zoloft.
> Your thoughts?Danielj,
After review of your post, I find that I have a want to overturn the decisions that can be seen.
First, your son is taking chemicals called "medicines" that are supposed to treat a "disease" or a "chemical imbalance" where there are a subset of psychiatrists/doctors that say that no disease or chemical balance exist.
And worse than that, there are researchers that conclude that the chemicals in the drugs that your son has taken, produce toxic prolonged effects on the brain including planned violence and suicide.
And even worse than that, the chemicals can still cause these effects well beyond the day that the drugs are stopped. And even worse, there could be a withdrawal syndrome much worse than the withdrawal from heroine.
One of the culprits undergoing research are compounds with fluoride and benzene in the chemical composition to many psychotropic drugs , one of which is Prozac that has fluoride in its chemical composition and the others have benzene.
The planned violence that could include suicide goes back to an era of time that I am prevented from posting here about due to prohibitions made to me here by Mr. Hsiung. And to go further, I could post here what IMHO could save your son's life, prevent life-ruining conditions and addiction if it were not that the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung.
But be it as it may be, you could use the search feature here to find what could help your son by reading my posts. They contain only a shadow, and the revelation can not be revealed until the fullness of what has been revealed to me is uncovered. I am prevented from posting what could reveal this, for Mr Hsiung states that his prohibitions to me will be good for this community as a whole, which is the same argument to justify slavery, infanticide, discrimination and genocide, and I am so sorry my friend.
Lou
Posted by linkadge on January 10, 2014, at 17:56:23
In reply to Lou's response-Ihnphantacyde » Danielj, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 17:22:07
The only two medications that have been proven to reduce the risk of suicide are clozapine (an antipsychotic) and lithium.
Ask your doctor about both. The combination can work very well for schizoaffective.
Linkadge
Posted by Christ_empowered on January 10, 2014, at 20:37:17
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt, posted by Christ_empowered on January 10, 2014, at 13:39:30
keep in mind, I did this myself. There are still doc sand clinics doing Orthomolecular, but not many. So, I went off to PubMed and read a lot, and this is what I've come up with...
1)10 grams time release C (2 doses); 2) b-100 complex, time release; 3) 30mgs optizinc; 4) 400 micrograms selenium; 5) 1000 IU natural form e, mixed tocopherols; 6) 1.5-2 grams green tea extract, divided doses 7) grape seed extract, 400mgs; 8) 6 grams taurine 9)300+ mgs b6
...and, of course, niacinamide. I don't take it as often or at as high a dosage as I should. It now mades me drowsy. At night, I try to take 3 grams.
Posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:25:09
In reply to Re: Lou's response-Ihnphantacyde, posted by linkadge on January 10, 2014, at 17:56:23
> The only two medications that have been proven to reduce the risk of suicide are clozapine (an antipsychotic) and lithium.
>
> Ask your doctor about both. The combination can work very well for schizoaffective.
>
>
>
> LinkadgeFriends,
It is written here that clozaril is a drug proven to reduce the risk of suicide...
Let us reason together here. First, how is it been proven that Clozaril has been proven to reduce the risk of suicide? Do you know?
What happened was that there was a study in suicide prevention between Clozaril and another drug and there were less attempts , of the suicide group, hospitalizations and interventions with those taking Clozaril. Does that prove that Clozaril is a proven treatment for suicide prevention? If you ranked all the drugs and the number of suicides, one drug would be the last and one would be the first. That does not prove that the drug is a causation to anything. Now if there were 1000 studies, that may be different if all the studies showed one drug correlated with the fewest suicides.
Clozaril can cause death by agranulocytosis and by heart attack and other adverse effects. If you think that Clozaril is an anti suicide pill, which means that one in suicidal thinking can take the drug and the suicidal thinking will vanish, be advised that the study did not show that and if it was an anti suicide pill, the U.S. army would not be trying to produce one.
Mothers, do not be deceived. KNow all the facts before you drug your child in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor.
Lou
http://www.ehealthme.com/ds/clozaril/death
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:29:06
In reply to Lou's response- » linkadge, posted by Lou Pilder on January 10, 2014, at 21:25:09
> It is written here that clozaril is a drug proven to reduce the risk of suicide...
> Let us reason together here.I'd like to redirect follow-ups regarding clozaril to a separate thread. Here's a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20140104/msgs/1058233.html
Follow-ups to support Danielj more directly are of course welcome right here. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Phillipa on January 10, 2014, at 23:30:50
In reply to Redirect: clozaril, posted by Dr. Bob on January 10, 2014, at 23:29:06
Perfect. Thanks.
Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 7:03:11
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt » bleauberry, posted by SLS on January 10, 2014, at 13:51:21
Good questions, Scott. thank you. I will try.
> > Whatever the cause, it appears to me there are toxins of some kind that causing misfiring and messing up the whole mood center operations.
>
> What toxins, specifically?
Lots of long bizarre names. There is so much we don't know. One of the MDs pioneering the research and treatment on this topic goes by the name of Shoemaker. I think it would be easier to google and take a look around yourself rather than me copying and pasting the equivalent of about 3 books on this one page. The toxin I am most concerned with in my own body is Quinolic acid, and cholestyramine does a good job of clearing out my head. Weird huh? Take a drug that passes thru the intestines but makes the head feel better? That's what happens.There are pubmed articles that indicate how toxins have affinity with opioid receptors, which would obviously have indirect negative effects on dopamine and norepinephrine, and the resulting psychiatric symptom manifestation would not be a surprise. Pretty much any of the popular internet LLMDs have piles of ongoing scientific studies relating to their pioneering work. Harowitz, Burrascano...if you start studying the writings of these guys, and researching where they got their leads from, you yourself Scott would be able to write an entire book on this topic. And we need that book. There is no better science oriented guy I know of for that job than you.
Can you offer a peer reviewed study indicating that toxins do not impact the brain?
>
> What are the clinical indicators described by Danielj that leads you to your conclusions regarding her son?
The symptoms, severity, and history. To many people, all these different diagnosis and symptoms look pretty much the same all under one blanket....for example depression is depression is depression, right? Well, no. There are different kinds of depression. The subtle differences offer really powerful clues to me, because I can recognize the difference between DanielJ situation verses someone else that looks similar. Subtle clues are usually not seen, ignored, or considered idiopathic. To me, those subtle clues speak loudly and at the very least give me an idea of what we are dealing with and how to proceed.>
> Can you cite any scientific literature demonstrating that the misfiring and messing up of the whole mood center operations are produced by the toxins you allude to?
No. Science is lagging. It will catch up, if former historical patterns hold true, maybe in about 5 to 10 years. The best information out there is fragmented....a researcher here, a researcher there, a few hundred MDs, patient reports, blogs, forums, and such.
That said, type "cholestyramine lyme" into a google search box and you will find a treasure of data available to anyone curious.>
> I look forward to your thread on cholestyramine. I'm sure you will provide peer-reviewed scientific literature to corroborate the contents of your posts.
Scott you know me better than that. I operate about 5 to 10 years in advance of science peer reviews. Wait for those reviews and our lives will be done already, suffering that could have been reduced, wasn't. I am not one to wait for someone else to figure out my problems and hand the solution to me on a silver platter. I only have one life. It is mine. It does not belong to science. We each have our own journeys, our own cross to bear, and we each do the best we can in our own lives to what we think is right. And naturally, what works for us, we want to share. A person has the right as the boss of their own body to accept or reject, discern, whatever information they gather.Trust but verify. I like that. There is not a single "gray" thing I've done in my treatment that had not already proved impressive with several hundred thousand other people in the real world clinical setting. There is decent science on it all, but not the establishment type peer review stuff you are looking for. Well, that's not really true either....not that simple....I guess it depends on who one considers to be peers. If all the other LLMDs are peers, then yeah, there is a ton of peer reviewed stuff. Who qualifies to be a peer? What makes them so qualified? Versus someone else who claims to be a peer? It's all subjective. Not objective. Mostly. Generally. Science used to be science. In this day and age it seems to have morphed into science based opinion editorials. What appears to be true and fact, is accepted as so even without repeatable duplicatable reliable proof.
Global warming is an example outside of psychiatry. Too much confusing data. Choose your side. There is enough data to defend both sides. Of course, we now know that all of the peer reviewed science from the big players was completely fabricated data. Massive hoax, but they call it science. Hey, that research ship stuck in the Antartic ice....do know what they were researching?.....global warming! lol
That said, peer reviewed, in my observations, does not significantly increase the validity of whatever is being reviewed. The reviewers have been proved wrong, or misguided, all throughout history. Over and over. It repeats. Nothing new. Sometimes they get it right. But we don't know that until 10 or 20 years later when real-world practice confirms and validates. But how often does the FDA pull something from the market that was not only approved in the first place, but peer reviewed as well, with flying colors. Happens.
I think the reason you and I see the world through different lenses is because I do not trust establishment types, you do. You depend on science. I do not. Simple as that. There is no right or wrong in there. People who do things with zero peer reviewed approaches get just as much improvement, if not more, than someone else, in my experiences anyway. Human intuition and wisdom, on an individual basis, can trump the best science has to offer. That is in fact how hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of people, are gaining ground against their chronic diseases. For example, the LLMD are literally saving thousands of lives and giving life back to patients who have been severely ill for a long time. But nothing they do is peer reviewed....NOTHING. It is all the wisdom and intuition gained in the clinical setting that is healing people. Those same people, if they wait for science to catch up, will be in the grave a long time before that happens.
>
>
> - ScottI understand you do not agree with a single thing that I have to say, and that is cool. I am very respectful of what other people believe. I like varying perceptions, because I believe no one is ever completely right or wrong, that the truth is a mixture of them.
The real best way to help people involves both your points of views and mine, a mix of science and intuition, science and clinical observation, eastern medicine and western medicine, combined and honed for the individual patient on a case by case basis.
I would think anyone involved in the medical world....patients as well as clinicians....would understand that we are dealing with one of the most complex physiological things called a human body that we know very little about, relatively speaking compared to all we do know, and that every new discovery out in the field would be greeted with optimistic promise for a deeper look, rather than immediate critical trash disposal.
Black and white. Gray. I think another difference between your perceptions and mine, is science oriented humans tend to desire to box concepts in black or white compartments and there isn't much gray area inbetween. To me, that is a very dangerous approach for the patient's future and outcome. But it is a commonly adopted approach throughout the medical establishment. There is no such thing as adrenal weakness, only cushings or addisons. For the many who are having hormonal issues related to substandard cortisol operation, or HPA axis disregulation, the black and white world is not going to help them much. Matter of fact, the establishment is perfectly fine telling them to go home and get some rest and not even try to help the patient. Meanwhile, the MD operating in the gray zone already has a long list of happy patients that received some sort of prescription or procedure that was sort of out of the box and not peer reviewed.
It's all so complicated. Intertwined. So much we don't know, but we think we know plenty. We don't. If we did, we would have all sorts of answers to questions that are asked at pbabble day after day year after year. They repeat. Nothing new. Lab results themselves often offer confusing or contradictory results. Peer reviewed science is not going to help in that situation. The MDs clinical intuition is going to have to kick in. He will not have the support of scientists when he makes his decision.
I do not see and rights or wrongs, better or worse, because I believe we are in such infancy in understanding the incredibly complicated workings inside the body, that even the best scientists are poorly armed to explain things in ways that can be proved and duplicated time and again. We do eventually get there. Polio. Ulcers. Discovery of bacteria. On and on throughout history. On and on going forward. We are in the middle of it right now. Until we know as much God, it will always be that way.
But...disclaimer...all one person's opinion, based on intuition guided by experience.
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 9:48:49
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt » SLS, posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 7:03:11
> Good questions, Scott. thank you. I will try.
>
> > > Whatever the cause, it appears to me there are toxins of some kind that causing misfiring and messing up the whole mood center operations.
> >
> > What toxins, specifically?
> Lots of long bizarre names. There is so much we don't know. One of the MDs pioneering the research and treatment on this topic goes by the name of Shoemaker. I think it would be easier to google and take a look around yourself rather than me copying and pasting the equivalent of about 3 books on this one page.Okay, one toxin is a good start. Thanks.
The toxin I am most concerned with in my own body is Quinolic acid,
Do you happen to know how quinolic acid affects the brain adversely?
> There are pubmed articles that indicate how toxins have affinity with opioid receptors, which would obviously have indirect negative effects on dopamine and norepinephrine, and the resulting psychiatric symptom manifestation would not be a surprise.
Interesting. Thanks.
Pretty much any of the popular internet LLMDs
What are LLMDs?
> Can you offer a peer reviewed study indicating that toxins do not impact the brain?
Science doesn't work that way, and you know it. Logic doesn't work that way. For example, I cannot find a peer-reviewed study indicating that the cure for depression is to smell your unwashed right foot t.i.d. Of course with mania, one would smell the left foot instead. I can't find any articles refuting this methodology, so it must be true...
I imagine bacterial endotoxins affect the brain and various CNS chemoreceptors. It may be that the malais and nausea attendant to a systemic infection is the direct effect of these endotoxins along with brain inflammation. However, that is not to say that bacterial activity is the etiology of the majority of cases of mental illness.
> > What are the clinical indicators described by Danielj that leads you to your conclusions regarding her son?
> The symptoms, severity, and history.
Let's try this again:
WHAT ARE THE CLINICAL INDICATORS DESCRIBED BY DANIELJ THAT LEADS YOU TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS REGARDING HIS SON?
Please be specific. You don't have to reply to this post at all, but direct answers to direct questions will advance greatly the worth of this dialectic.
> To many people, all these different diagnosis and symptoms look pretty much the same all under one blanket....
Not to this person.
> for example depression is depression is depression, right? Well, no.
This is manifestly true and noted by medical science for over 30 years. Please don't lecture me in a condescenting way.
> There are different kinds of depression. The subtle differences offer really powerful clues to me, because I can recognize the difference between DanielJ situation verses someone else that looks similar. Subtle clues are usually not seen, ignored, or considered idiopathic. To me, those subtle clues speak loudly and at the very least give me an idea of what we are dealing with and how to proceed.
Would you be so kind as to name just a few of these powerful clues?
What, specifically, are the subtle, loudly-speaking clues that you see with danielJ's son, and what does that tell you about what "we" are dealing with? How would you have danielJ proceed?
> > Can you cite any scientific literature demonstrating that the misfiring and messing up of the whole mood center operations are produced by the toxins you allude to?
> No. Science is lagging.
You don't think science has looked at infection, toxins, and brain inflammation as being associated with MDD or BD? You would be wrong. It seems to me that it is you who is lagging behind science.
I will disregard the rest of your lecture for now. Let's just deal with the issues listed above.
Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 12:34:13
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt - lysed bacteria? » bleauberry, posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 9:48:49
Good post Scott. thank you for your thoughts.
>
> Okay, one toxin is a good start. Thanks.
>
> The toxin I am most concerned with in my own body is Quinolic acid,
>
> Do you happen to know how quinolic acid affects the brain adversely?not really, except I saw some vague thing at pubmed where it was shown the toxin binds to opioid receptors, and another one that showed how they bind with serotonin. Either way, bad news and a bizarre clinical presentation which "appears" psychiatric but is in fact not.
>
> > There are pubmed articles that indicate how toxins have affinity with opioid receptors, which would obviously have indirect negative effects on dopamine and norepinephrine, and the resulting psychiatric symptom manifestation would not be a surprise.
>
> Interesting. Thanks.
>
> Pretty much any of the popular internet LLMDs
>
> What are LLMDs?It is not a formal term, but sort of a nick-name for MDs who have a particular specialty and passion in treating Lyme disease and similar diseases that look like it. I've had 3 LLMDs. Two of them had Lyme themselves and that is where their specialty took hold....they experienced the insane suffering in real time themselves....and they overcame it....and it didn't happen with limited CDC guidelines. The other one became fascinated early in career when it was observed that pain/fatigue patients were getting better on antibiotics that had been prescribed for other unrelated reasons. For example, a Fibromyalgia patient got a tooth infection, prescribed antibiotic, and stuff happened far beyond the teeth. I guess the doc saw enough of this "pattern" that he dug deep into research, history, MD blogs, MD conferences, Lyme conferences, and such, and became an expert out of passion for the topic. In other words, antibiotics were unintentionally healing pain/fatigue patients better than the commonly accepted treatments. He put 2 + 2 together and it all made sense. He and another LLMD both told me, with sureness and conviction, that most depression patients actually have Lyme disease. To me, that was unfathomable. Insane. Impossible. Ridiculous. Left field. Out there. The problem is, I have come to see that what they said, is true. It just is not common knowledge or generally accepted, so that makes it really hard on both MDs and patients.
LLMD stands for Lyme Literate MD. Most are not. Most do not know anything more than what they learned in school, what they were told by a pharmaceutical rep, what they read in a journal, etc. All that stuff is but a smidgen of what Lyme disease actually is.
I had a D.O. work a sore hip a while back. We were talking and he seemed to be a treasure chest of information on treating Lyme disease. He even suggested a particular antibiotic that I asked my LLMD about on the next visit and I got it and it was helpful. I asked that D.O. how he knew so much. He obviously knew a lot more than the average garden variety MD on the topic of Lyme disease. Asking him where he learned all that stuff....a conference?....special training?....he said he learned it all from his patients. That is sort of another example of what I meant about the difference between the scientific world and the real world. Real world = clinical world average people.
Not a single LLMD in my State. I have to travel out of State for my appointments. Even in that State, there are only 6 of them.
>
>
> I imagine bacterial endotoxins affect the brain and various CNS chemoreceptors. It may be that the malais and nausea attendant to a systemic infection is the direct effect of these endotoxins along with brain inflammation.Absolutely! Bullseye! You said it better than me. You don't need to imagine any more however. It is real. Dangerously real.
>However, that is not to say that bacterial activity is the etiology of the majority of cases of mental illness.
Well, on the surface, I sort of agree with you there. But again, it was the two experts on the front lines who do this day in and day out, that told me that. With conviction. Until somebody can prove to me that what they said is false, I accept it as true simply because everything my eyes see in the world and on the net supports their claims more than it refutes them. And actually, it is really hard to find anything to refute them. That's because it is uncharted waters where nobody is doing any looking except the front lines guys.
My own depression convinced me. If someone had told me, back in my zyprexa/prozac days, that a variety of antibiotics were going to revive me better than the mood drugs, I would have laughed so hard. That's just not possible. Oops. I was wrong. Searching through all sorts of forums and blogs, there are a bunch of people just like me. So while I often feel like the lone sheep, I'm not.
> Let's try this again:
>
> WHAT ARE THE CLINICAL INDICATORS DESCRIBED BY DANIELJ THAT LEADS YOU TO YOUR CONCLUSIONS REGARDING HIS SON?Oh man, hard to describe. It's not so much any one particular thing, but the whole big picture. And maybe due to my own journeys I have gained some sort of instinct or skill at recognizing subtle clues that are usually glossed over or not seen at all.
As an overall approach, if someone has been in psychiatric care for more than 10 years, and it is bad enough that suicide is real risk, I cannot help but think....the problem is outside the box....so the answer is also going to be outside the box. I ask myself, what could possibly mess up the brain so bad? And why in the prefrontal cortex? And, if none of these drugs....serotonin ones, NE ones, DA ones, combinations....if all of them missed the mark, then we are clearly dealing with a situation not related to a supposed chemical imbalance. It's something else. The failed drugs told us that. We already proved it. Don't stay stuck in a game that is losing hand after hand...change the game because we are in the wrong one. That's the way I see it anyway. For me, that game change did not come until after about $35,000, 15 years, a dozen or more MDs and specialists, hospital stays, and ECT. Prior to that, I was a die hard, hard core, medication guy. Meds only. Anything else is bogus. That's where I was.
Hey Scott for me to go see that post again and examine the symptoms again to further figure why I said what I said, I would have to click off this page and start all over! Yikes. I will do that in a separate response.
>
> Please be specific. You don't have to reply to this post at all, but direct answers to direct questions will advance greatly the worth of this dialectic.
>
> > To many people, all these different diagnosis and symptoms look pretty much the same all under one blanket....
>
> Not to this person.Your experience and research is extensive.
>
> > for example depression is depression is depression, right? Well, no.
>
> This is manifestly true and noted by medical science for over 30 years. Please don't lecture me in a condescenting way.That's what sucks about forums. I was in a good mood and smiling with friendship in an engaged fun conversation when I wrote that.....but you could not see my face....and the words alone on a page can be seen differently. There was zero condescending intended so I am sorry any was perceived.
What I meant was, a toxic depression or infected depression has a particular pattern to it....responds poorly to common meds, antipsychotics work the best in those cases, ritalin, neurontin too...common meds make things worse or don't help....side effects exaggerated....frequent poop out...the need for extremely low doses or the need for extremely high doses....drug sensitivity. Add in there other symptoms such as tremor, joint pains, fatigue, brain fog, and some others, the picture gets more clear.
> Would you be so kind as to name just a few of these powerful clues?
Above are some. Most of us here have them.
>
>
> > No. Science is lagging.
>
> You don't think science has looked at infection, toxins, and brain inflammation as being associated with MDD or BD? You would be wrong. It seems to me that it is you who is lagging behind science.No I don't. I have never seen anyone talk about or share anything scientific about, so, no, I don't think they have looked at it, and even if they did, the effort does not appear authentic or thorough. Send the stuff my way. Would love to see it. What do you have?
>
> I will disregard the rest of your lecture for now. Let's just deal with the issues listed above.Not a lecture. Well, I guess maybe. The thing is Scott, you have a way of making me feel like I have to sell something or defend something or prove myself to be worthy in your eyes. And then what happens is....yeah, I get defensive, I get sensitive, and I go to town defending myself, and it looks like a lecture.
Respectful debates never get to the point of lectures. You and me both need better control of our words.
Disclaimer: IMO
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> - Scott
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 12:41:03
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt - lysed bacteria? » SLS, posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 12:34:13
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20131217/msgs/1058298.html
- Scott
Posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 12:49:56
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
Scott. Here is my layman brain thinking out loud..
26 years old. Bang. Right off the bat, something's wrong. That's a young brain. What could go so badly wrong? And it's been 10 years? That means whatever happened, happened when he was 16 years old.
10 years. That's too long. Something is wrong. The meds are missing the mark., Why? What's up? This is not looking like a neurotransmitter thing any more. Chemical imbalance? Cough.
Schizo. Ya know, any time I see that word, infection and toxin automatically pops into my head. Something really strong impacting the brain there. Gosh, to get a brain that crazy, something is really wrong, and it aint a shortage of serotonin. Don't know what it is, but if I were to go by what my doctors see in their clinical setting everyday, then an infection has to be at the top of the list, it's the only thing I know of other than a poison that can so badly mess up the brain that way, and in fact an infection is exactly like a poison in the brain due to its chemicals which are neurotoxic.
Does that mean to me that anyone I see with schizo symptoms has an undiagnosed infection or toxin accumulation? No it does not. But those are at the top of the list for further investigation. And when it seems like the doc is running out of ideas, the meds are working badly, progress is not being made, then it makes justifiable sense to me....to get to that list.
On second reading of the author's original post, we have no knowledge whatsoever of the other variables involved in this case. Divorced? Struggling other ways? Fired from job? Girlfriend left? Dad screamed? Car in the shop can't pay? There is other stuff maybe involved that we don't know.
But again, 10 years, suicide attempt, schizo....that's pretty much all I need to see in this case. But see, someone else might look at that same scenario and say, "that's the way psychiatry is, it's all trial and error, if one med doesn't work try another", and it's all sort taken with an general attitude of "idiopathic". All this stuff "just is the way it is". ???
If I could talk with this family in person, my first question would be "where were you living when he was 16 years old"? More questions too, but that's the first one. The answer could be very important.
> I haven't posted recently but my 26 yr old son attempted suicide a couple of days ago. To make it worse we weren't notified till last night around 5 PM that he was in the ICU. He survived though we wondered how after hearing he took over 20 exrta strength excedrin drank both 3 in one oil and penetrating oil oouch! They did an endoscopy an found (thank goodness) only mild inflammation of esophagus and stomach lining.
>
> His Diag was schizo affect. and has been for nearly ten years. Taking 15 mg of Zyprexa and 100 mg Zoloft. After talking to him last night we discovered it sounded like suicidal ideations were
> what pushed him over the edge. I think maybe discontinuation of Zoloft is the first thing that will help. Interestingly enough his ideations coincide with a switch from Prozac to Zoloft.
> Your thoughts?
Posted by SLS on January 11, 2014, at 13:09:34
In reply to Re: Suicide Attempt - SLS, posted by bleauberry on January 11, 2014, at 12:49:56
13 years ago, I posted on the ASD newsgroup and rocked a few boats while I was there. One of my more significant contributions was to propose using biological probes (pharmacological challenges) to determine the nature of the mental illness being diagnosed, the location in the brain of the anomalies, and which drugs would be most likely to elicit a robust therapeutic response with minimum side effects. For instance, one might be subject to a PET scan and given a series of compounds and record what parts of the brain "light up". It is likely that Prozac and Wellbutrin will produce intraindividual and interindividual differences in brain activity. This protocol would not be limited to marketed drugs. A drug like ritanserin might be the best probe to assay 5-HT2 receptor function and to what degree the PFC lights up. The PET scan can even be active in that the subject is asked to perform various mental tasks during the procedure. There is probably a task/drug association that would indicate diagnosis and the classes of drugs to explore clinically.
Only a guess.
- Scott
Posted by jane d on January 11, 2014, at 17:16:06
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
I'm so sorry. How awful for you. I can't offer any specific suggestions. I never quite reached the point of making an attempt although I spent an awful lot of my life obsessing about it. The ideation did get easier to live with over time as I learned to view it as something separate from myself. I do believe that medications can have unexpected effects in some people and that could be what happened to your son. But I also found that my despair would get worse after a med change that did not do anything once I realized that this was not going to be the cure. This got worse each time it happened.
I hope your son continues to make a good physical recovery and that you find some answers.
Jane
PS. It took a long time but my life did get better - at first only a little bit more manageable but finally much better. I hope your son gets to the same place even faster than I did.
Posted by johnLA on January 11, 2014, at 19:26:17
In reply to Suicide Attempt, posted by Danielj on January 10, 2014, at 9:41:11
i also want to say i'm sorry that you, your son, and family are going thru this.
i would work closely with your doctors of course. also, look after yourself as well. look to family, friends, church, or whoever you can lean on right now.
for what it's worth, zoloft was the first drug i ever took. the akathesia drove me to go inpatient voluntarily. i could not stop moving. i really thought i was losing my mind.
hoping things get better for you and your son.
john
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